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Apple begins bidding for Mac netbook manufacturing contract - Page 2

post #41 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

Why can't it be both? Imagine a tablet with a slide out keyboard like some slider phones, or perhaps with a vitual semi transparent keyboard on the touchscreen itself that appears as an overlay as required.

Apple will never make something with a "slide-out" keyboard. It's just bad design and Apple doesn't do bad design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

(can't run full OS-X), Well it can't for people with limited imagination. The iPhone was equally impossible until it was made.

Nothing's impossible but a small touch tablet doesn't have the resolution to run OS-X.

The whole point of the iPhone GUI is that it is optimised for touch. Even such tricks (described in Apple's patents), as making the min/max buttons on OS-X desktop windows automatically get bigger when your finger gets close to the screen, are clunky adaptations at best and hugely complicate the interface. What's the advantage of sticking with a familiar (desktop OS-X) interface when you have to add another layer of complication on top just to use it?

The iPhone interface would scale easily and is similarly familiar but with no need for the extra layer. The advantage of using one OS over another is usually to leverage software, it would make sense to leverage the iPhone software more than the desktop software.

The tablet would also have to use the infra-red based hand and finger detection patent Apple published recently, to even make it *possible* to put OS-X desktop on a tablet, and there doesn't seem to be a good reason for it IMO.
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post #42 of 98
If they release a netbook-class product running OS X, people will load desktop software on it and complain about performance/battery/ui/etc. It sets up expectations (laptop-class experience) that technology can't (yet) deliver on.

If it's more like an overgrown iPod touch, apps will be designed to the interface and the hardware and it will result in a far superior user experience. The expectation will be that it can do the sorts of things an iPod Touch can do, with a bigger screen.
It would easily exceed that.
post #43 of 98
In my opinion, the best netbook is a netbook sized tablet. Get rid of the keyboard and make the thing smaller and lighter. It is "net book" after all and trying to write an essay using that small keyboard is not better than writing it on a touch keyboard. However, it will probably have a learning curve and will increase whining volume on many internet forums. I just hope Apple don't follow MS in including a starters OS.
post #44 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

Well there's no way the half that aren't free can average $1, since that's the lowest price. Probably safer to average $1.50.

I figure as much, but I wanted to low ball it in every way possible to quell any counter-arguments about the success of the App Store before they could occur. Just to keep the thread on track a little longer, but does give the dissenters the argument that Apple must be charging too much.

If the growth continues as it is and it mirrors the iTMS growth year-over-year in percentage, then the App Store could easily be a multi-billion dollar business on its own. And that isn't even factoring in the licensing from 3rd-party devices connecting to the 30-pin connector.
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post #45 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmcalpin View Post

Not going to happen. There is ONE version of OSX. There will always be ONE version of OSX.

My guess: no keyboard (external Bluetooth keyboards optional), basically an oversized, super-powered iPod Touch.

Well the iPhone runs OS X (Scaled down version). I believe AppleTV runs a scaled down version of OS X. iPod Touch runs OS X (scaled down version). So in reality, there are many different types of OS X out there.

This is why Apple changed Mac OS X to just simply OS X, because its not just made for the Mac anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

I'm thinking "MacBook Touch"

Or just simply, MacTouch....unless Apple has something else planned for that?

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post #46 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexys Pride View Post

Hmm, third quarter... They could make an absolute killing with this if it is out in time for Christmas.

At least if the price is right. I would pay double what I paid for the AAO.. $600 - you hear me Apple?

$600!
post #47 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

And what device is that- that runs iPhoto and/or Aperture?

That's right. It's not your god given right to have a product that does what you want, unless you can make it yourself. If Apple decides that it can't make the kind of money it wants to make if it makes the product you're asking for, then you're out of luck. Sorry!
post #48 of 98
Where are the tablet naysayers now? Where are the arguments? With each passing moment they get quieter and quieter as the mystery iDevice draws nearer and nearer to release.

*cues original terminator theme music*

Soon you all will have to bow down before its glory!

Mactouch FTW!




........Hey its Monday in the office and I'm bored already.
post #49 of 98
Of course I'd like to see something in the mix to fill the gap between iPod touch/iPhone and MacBook/MacBook Pro, but I'm betting it's not gonna happen. All Apple resources are still going toward making iPhone (and possible derivatives) the best product in the Apple line-up. iPhone has several hugely important advantages: it's the lowest priced Apple product out there that has so far been proven unbeatable in the market, it remains a highly desirable product AND it provides incremental sales which continue to grow at a pace that seems to be unaffected by seasonal dips and spikes. Having consistent profitability in this market (and beyond) is paramount and shifting Apple over to these new business strategies that support bulletproof growth enhanced by mountains of consumer choice in apps has been the smartest move Apple has ever made.

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post #50 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olternaut View Post

Where are the tablet naysayers now? Where are the arguments? With each passing moment they get quieter and quieter as the mystery iDevice draws nearer and nearer to release.

*cues original terminator theme music*

Soon you all will have to bow down before its glory!

Mactouch FTW! ...

I'm still hoping that a tablet (if it turns out to be real) will be called ...

iBook

Makes more sense to me than any other name given it's potential uses.
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post #51 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

Except for the versions that run on the iPhone and Touch.

I know, I know... But I really don't think iPhone OS really counts in the same sense. It's debatable, sure.

But he was talking about something like OSX Home Basic, not OSX Mobile (like iPhone OS), if you follow me.

I don't claim any authoritative knowledge about this, mind you; I just don't see that happening. Apple seems very, very attached to keeping OSX one size fits all.
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post #52 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

If they do 1B in a year (rounding up) and half are free and the other half average $1 (rounding down, I think) they make a gross revenue of $500M. Multiply that by 0.3 and they make a gross profit of $150M. Not bad.]

Only if you ignore a little think called 'cost of sales'.

There is a cost associated with the App store. Just a few items:
- Server hardware and software
- Server support
- Bandwidth
- Software development for iTunes and App development tools
- Support costs for iTunes/App Store/iPhone (which can be either above the line or below the line depending on accounting procedures)

What you're referring to is closer to contribution margin than gross profit, but even that isn't quite correct.
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post #53 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Ingersol View Post

If they release a netbook-class product running OS X, people will load desktop software on it and complain about performance/battery/ui/etc. It sets up expectations (laptop-class experience) that technology can't (yet) deliver on.

I hope more people read the above. Technology is changing fast but I think it will be a while until we can see solid x86 hardware in these portable devices. Mainly due to the power demands.
Quote:

If it's more like an overgrown iPod touch, apps will be designed to the interface and the hardware and it will result in a far superior user experience. The expectation will be that it can do the sorts of things an iPod Touch can do, with a bigger screen.
It would easily exceed that.

Yep, that is all Apple has to do, that is put iPhone apps in a window on this device. In a sense we would have virtual iPhone's to run the current app store apps. Of course native apps would be possible to leverage the higher resolution screen. The only difference I would see is that Apple will need to support multitasking on the device.

As to exceeding what the current Touch can do that is obviously easy to do. But I believe a key factor in the devices success will be it's ability to still excel at media playback. In effect we will have a video iPod worth the name. What is important here is that if Apple can mass produce this product at a reasonable price, that tech can then be leveraged by apps that can't justify the hardware development on their own. This is where app store comes in. App store give special case industries like medical or surveying the ability run solutions on far more affordable hardware, hardware that also supports mainstream apps.
post #54 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Only if you ignore a little think called 'cost of sales'.

There is a cost associated with the App store. Just a few items:
- Server hardware and software
- Server support
- Bandwidth
- Software development for iTunes and App development tools
- Support costs for iTunes/App Store/iPhone (which can be either above the line or below the line depending on accounting procedures)

What you're referring to is closer to contribution margin than gross profit, but even that isn't quite correct.

I specifically used the would gross to indicate that their were no deductions included. If you figure out how much additinal cost per app is accounted for any software change made to iTunes then go for it, but I doubt you or anyone else posting on this board has the means to establish those costs. The point of my post is to very show that the App Store does generate significant funds. How much do other, more established carrier or vendor app stores generate? My guess is not as much, and this is just the tip of the iceberg.
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post #55 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

Apple will never make something with a "slide-out" keyboard. It's just bad design and Apple doesn't do bad design.

How about a transparent double sided touch screen? Something like this?

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...en_panels.html
post #56 of 98
post #57 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

Apple will never make something with a "slide-out" keyboard. It's just bad design and Apple doesn't do bad design.

Do you actually know what good design is?

You are actually saying that Apple make things simple and good looking, not doing bad design is something completely different.

AppleTV not having an on/off switch is bad design.

Airport Extreme having a power cable that comes out with the slightest touch is bad design.

MacBook Pro with a lid that does not close flush so when it is in a bag any old shit can get through the gap and scratch things up is bad design.

MacBook Pro lid that only opens just past halfway so you cannot see the screen while standing above it, or hunched over it is bad design.

MacBook's and iPhones made from cheap plastic that cracks is bad design.

Making products so thin that things overheat and you can fry eggs on them is bad design.


How anyones can make a statement like that is beyond me, the level of fanboyism sometimes is just pathetic. Apple's primary purpose is to make things look good, often at the expense of usability. This my friend, whichever way you want to look at it is bad design.
post #58 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphster View Post

How anyones can make a statement like that is beyond me.

Well when you have copied and installed your very own version of your deities famed 'reality distotion field', it becomes really easy. Second nature almost; you might say.
post #59 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

Apple will never make something with a "slide-out" keyboard. It's just bad design and Apple doesn't do bad design.


What have you been smoking?
post #60 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphster View Post

Apple's primary purpose is to make things look good, often at the expense of usability.

Much as I tend to agree with your definition of 'bad design' your conclusion deserves the same kind of derision you heaped upon the original comment. How you can make a statement like that is beyond me. It is, my friend, a prime example of stupid prejudice.
post #61 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

Much as I tend to agree with your definition of 'bad design' your conclusion deserves the same kind of derision you heaped upon the original comment. How you can make a statement like that is beyond me. It is, my friend, a prime example of stupid prejudice.

No it's not- Form over function tends to be Apple's raison d'etre way too often.
post #62 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphster View Post

Do you actually know what good design is?

Yes. I have a diploma in Industrial Design and have worked as a designer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphster View Post

... You are actually saying that Apple make things simple and good looking, not doing bad design is something completely different....

See, now you're completely off the rails in only your second sentence. I never said or even implied anything of the sort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphster View Post

  1. AppleTV not having an on/off switch is bad design.
  2. Airport Extreme having a power cable that comes out with the slightest touch is bad design.
  3. MacBook Pro with a lid that does not close flush so when it is in a bag any old shit can get through the gap and scratch things up is bad design.
  4. MacBook Pro lid that only opens just past halfway so you cannot see the screen while standing above it, or hunched over it is bad design.
  5. MacBook's and iPhones made from cheap plastic that cracks is bad design.
  6. Making products so thin that things overheat and you can fry eggs on them is bad design.

Most of these things are either not actually "bad design," or they are things that are bad design IF TRUE. 1, 4, and 5 are particularly NOT "bad design" and 2, 3 and 6 are gross exaggerations of the facts. In general, you confuse manufacturing flaws with "bad design."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphster View Post

How anyones can make a statement like that is beyond me, the level of fanboyism sometimes is just pathetic. Apple's primary purpose is to make things look good, often at the expense of usability. This my friend, whichever way you want to look at it is bad design.

I would suggest you just don't know much about design if you think that Apple's primary purpose is to make things "look good" at "the expense of useability."
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post #63 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olternaut View Post

Where are the tablet naysayers now? Where are the arguments? With each passing moment they get quieter and quieter as the mystery iDevice draws nearer and nearer to release.

*cues original terminator theme music*

Soon you all will have to bow down before its glory!

Mactouch FTW!




........Hey its Monday in the office and I'm bored already.

Well, if you're talking about the original tablet naysayers on this board, they've died of old age, mostly.
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post #64 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmcalpin View Post

I know, I know... But I really don't think iPhone OS really counts in the same sense. It's debatable, sure.

But he was talking about something like OSX Home Basic, not OSX Mobile (like iPhone OS), if you follow me.

I don't claim any authoritative knowledge about this, mind you; I just don't see that happening. Apple seems very, very attached to keeping OSX one size fits all.

No I wasn't talking about something like that. And I have no idea where you get that from my comment!
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post #65 of 98
Thinking about this maybe a tad to much.....

What do we know (from my minimal understanding):

There main profit sector and target audience is high end consumers
There is two consumer distrobutions of OS X the PC(MacBook and Mac Pro etc) and mobile (iPod and Phone)
They have ordered lots (cant remember how many appleinsider stated) 10" touchscreens
They have ordered 3.2MP camera sensors
They have a pocket sized PC (the iPod or iPhone)
Small PC (Mac Mini)
They have a ultra portable (Air), portable(MacBook), and desktop replacement laptop (MacBook Pro)
They have a desktop computer(iMac)
They have a professional upgradeable PC (Mac Pro)
Have deals with many mobile carriers including LARGE data packages (UK is truly unlimited data)
They like GPS, tethering, intellgent systems
App store/iTunes with movies etc is doing well and expanding rapidly
It has to have that "wow" factor and something which sets apple apart from the rest of the market
It will be more expensive than most other equivalent products
iPods are reaching saturation point throughout (well I still seem to be aquiring more but I dont think everyone is as bad as me LOL)
They have purchased a chip manufacture

Whats big industry currently?
eBooks
Netbooks
Touch Screen
App Stores with little guys being big developers
Connectivity
Multiple core and differnt types of cores (CPU/GPU)

So what do I think?
The missing price points in macs range - a £450 laptop or £2000 laptop which seems more realistic as we all know apple? £2k Hell I havent seen what it is but I know I want one. My guess something to act as a eBook/ultra portable pc. The touch screen is just them showing off there flair of style and ability. This will be an impressive bit of kit. However I do expect it will be like the MacBook Air, stunted but brilliant. What wouldnt surprise me is if it has the gaming features of the iPod/Phone but the OS from a full PC. Sounds a bit OTT I know but thats the two sectors apple are trying to break into. Look at the iPhone Exchange for business, games for the "kids" no idea what apple are actually doing but thats my thoughts.
post #66 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

In my opinion, the best netbook is a netbook sized tablet. Get rid of the keyboard and make the thing smaller and lighter. It is "net book" after all and trying to write an essay using that small keyboard is not better than writing it on a touch keyboard. However, it will probably have a learning curve and will increase whining volume on many internet forums. I just hope Apple don't follow MS in including a starters OS.

I agree, the virtual on-screen keyboards are better from a usability standpoint than physical keyboards which can't be contextual. I like, for example, how on the iPhone you get a keyboard with ".com" and the @ symbol when typing in email addresses or URLs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

How about a transparent double sided touch screen? Something like this?

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...en_panels.html

It'll be interesting to see how where this technology shows up in an Apple product. It's very "Minority Report."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphster View Post

How anyones can make a statement like that is beyond me, the level of fanboyism sometimes is just pathetic. Apple's primary purpose is to make things look good, often at the expense of usability. This my friend, whichever way you want to look at it is bad design.

I don't know of any product that is designed perfectly, nearly everything will have some kind of flaw or imperfection. But to say all Apple products are badly designed is no different than someone saying they are all perfect. Apple does a very good job of designing products that have style and improve usability, even though they have made a bunch of missteps along the way just like any company that tries to innovate and push the envelope.

The Mars landers had some imperfections too, but, I don't think anyone would describe them as badly designed. Anything made by humans will not be perfect.
post #67 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Apple will deliver, no doubt- but must you bash one of the biggest innovators in consumer electronics history in the process?

that's laughable. you bash apple in virtually every thread you make an appearance in and yet someone has a go at sony and you harp up against it?
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post #68 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griff View Post

We have no idea what Snow Leopard will bring to the table. Besides, Macs come with special discs that only work on that family of Macs.

Maybe Snow Leopard will have touch support built in?

i wouldn't be surprised to see touch technology coming to desktop OS & applications on the mac.
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post #69 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by sennen View Post

that's laughable. you bash apple in virtually every thread you make an appearance in and yet someone has a go at sony and you harp up against it?

Not true- totally unbiased and proud Apple owner here.
I just don't drink the Kool-Aid.
post #70 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

That's right. It's not your god given right to have a product that does what you want, unless you can make it yourself. If Apple decides that it can't make the kind of money it wants to make if it makes the product you're asking for, then you're out of luck. Sorry!

And if Apple decides to make a piece of sheet you buy it because Apple tells you that you need it and you buy it and eat it regardless. And I'm out of luck? You're out of mind and soul.
post #71 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Now we're talking. Give me an 11" Air- I will buy it today- RIGHT NOW.

actually I think that 13 inches isn't an issue. anything more than that would be, but 13 is right on that border of small enough to be portable but large enough you won't go blind.

my issue is things like improving the processor speed, hard drive space, battery life etc. I actually kind of like the idea of using the iphone OS rather than desktop and really making it a NETbook. because the software on the phone is getting pretty good in terms of variety etc. and if they based it off the iphone OS it would seem like cake to put in a built in 3g antenna (unlocked preferred) for folks to use as an alt form of 'wireless'
post #72 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Not true- totally unbiased and proud Apple owner here.
I just don't drink the Kool-Aid.

just the pocari sweat from the vending machines in sony hq, tokyo?
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post #73 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

And what device is that- that runs iPhoto and/or Aperture?

In my view there is simply no way that a 10-inch screen would provide the necessary real estate to allow for proper editing of photos, movies, etc.

As far as I see it, there are two choices. One is spend the money on a Macbook or Macbook Pro and live with the bigger, more expensive form factor OR forget about doing video and photo work on a more portable and hence less expensive device, choosing instead to use the device in question for other purposes. A decent-size touchscreen device that fits in between the Touch/iPhone and a regular Apple laptop could come in handy and at worst would be a very cool product. I just don't think it's likely Apple would make the mistake of trying to deliver a fully-functioning laptop using that form factor. It would have to be good for doing more demanding work and it can't be on account of the screen would be too small and with performance comes hits to battery life, etc. which would cause the machine to be less enjoyable to use.

I use my Touch to surf the net, play games, access assorted media, check out emails, schedule appointments, and so on. A bigger screen would make it more enjoyable to do all of those things and really that's what the device should be designed for. Editing photos and movies, etc. needs to be done on a product with a bigger screen and a lot more horsepower. I could see using the device to display photos and even show home movies but not to be the unit that you use to manipulate those items in any significant fashion. Just because the device wouldn't do the latter doesn't mean it should be dismissed as too limiting. It is what it is. In short we're not talking a desktop replacement but something rather that can effectively work in tandem with a good desktop system. What's wrong with that?
post #74 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajectory View Post

I don't know of any product that is designed perfectly, nearly everything will have some kind of flaw or imperfection. But to say all Apple products are badly designed is no different than someone saying they are all perfect. Apple does a very good job of designing products that have style and improve usability, even though they have made a bunch of missteps along the way just like any company that tries to innovate and push the envelope.

The Mars landers had some imperfections too, but, I don't think anyone would describe them as badly designed. Anything made by humans will not be perfect.


That is a fine answer and I take no issue with what you have said.

My post was in reply to a statement that said "Apple don't do bad design" which is clearly a ridiculous thing to say.

I too am an Apple customer with around something in the region of $8000 worth of purchases in the last 2 years. I have no axe to grind with Apple, my beef is purely with some of the idiots who frequent these boards claiming that Apple can do not wrong, that any other manufacturers product is automatically inferior and that Windows is crap.

Apple is a corporate company who's only main goal is to make as much money as possible, Just like anybody else, even Microsoft. While many of their products are good, they are not automatically vastly superior to anybody else. I own other products, I own a Dell. There are some things that others do better than Apple.
post #75 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

Yes. I have a diploma in Industrial Design and have worked as a designer.

See, now you're completely off the rails in only your second sentence. I never said or even implied anything of the sort.

Most of these things are either not actually "bad design," or they are things that are bad design IF TRUE. 1, 4, and 5 are particularly NOT "bad design" and 2, 3 and 6 are gross exaggerations of the facts. In general, you confuse manufacturing flaws with "bad design."


I would suggest you just don't know much about design if you think that Apple's primary purpose is to make things "look good" at "the expense of useability."

So you liked the hockey puck mouse and the MM? Two of probably the most uncomfortable mice I've personally (and I'm also guessing, others) used. And that's ignoring that the MM breaks down after several months of use.

Designing a device that is supposed to fit in your hand that doesn't really fit in your hand (the puck mouse) or another that fits like a squished egg are bad design.

Apple just shouldn't do mice at all. Just because it says designed in California, made in China on the bottom of the device, doesn't automatically make it a good design.
post #76 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness View Post

So you liked the hockey puck mouse and the MM? Two of probably the most uncomfortable mice I've personally (and I'm also guessing, others) used. And that's ignoring that the MM breaks down after several months of use.

i never used the puck mouse for an extended period of time, but the MM is a great mouse - i use one 9 hours a day. no ergonomic issues for me at all, and the roller-ball, whilst it does get stuck after a few months, is easy to fix.
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post #77 of 98
This is a hybrid tablet/netbook. Think of a book with the two insides as multitouch screens. WiFi, 3G, etc. Can be used as a book (potrait) or as a conventional keyboard/screen (landscape). ...For tablet mode, it folds (pivots) in a way that it becomes a one-sided tablet. This would be cool.
post #78 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olternaut View Post

....

*cues original terminator theme music*

...


Nice touch
post #79 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

Apple will never make something with a "slide-out" keyboard. It's just bad design and Apple doesn't do bad design.

Nothing's impossible but a small touch tablet doesn't have the resolution to run OS-X.

The whole point of the iPhone GUI is that it is optimised for touch. Even such tricks (described in Apple's patents), as making the min/max buttons on OS-X desktop windows automatically get bigger when your finger gets close to the screen, are clunky adaptations at best and hugely complicate the interface. What's the advantage of sticking with a familiar (desktop OS-X) interface when you have to add another layer of complication on top just to use it?

The iPhone interface would scale easily and is similarly familiar but with no need for the extra layer. The advantage of using one OS over another is usually to leverage software, it would make sense to leverage the iPhone software more than the desktop software.

The tablet would also have to use the infra-red based hand and finger detection patent Apple published recently, to even make it *possible* to put OS-X desktop on a tablet, and there doesn't seem to be a good reason for it IMO.

The tablet/netbook/MacTouch would run something in between iPhone OS 3.0 and [Snow]Leopard. Similar model for apps from App Store, etc. It will *not* have [Snow]Leopard functionality. Steve would not allow this to happen because of the low specs of the tablet/netbook/MacTouch - would not deliver any good [Snow]Leopard experience.
post #80 of 98
Obviously there is a market for a Mac netbook. It's just comes down to price, and I fear that if it is priced reasonably, Apple will restrict the device in silly arbitrary ways.
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