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Global Warming - Page 5

Poll Results: Are humans the primary cause of global warming?

 
  • 67% (25)
    Yes
  • 24% (9)
    No
  • 8% (3)
    Other (Please Elaborate)
37 Total Votes  
post #161 of 291
4/27/09 at 2:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

"Diabolical cause"?

Okay. Go on believing that.

To prevent action taken against climate change is diabolical. Millions dead, millions more starving and displaced by drought, flooding and increased storm activity and strength. Millions of species, forever wiped off the face of the earth. Eco-systems strained beyond repair. And you say increased levels of CO2 will have the positive effect of making things lush. Sheesh.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

Reply

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

Reply
post #162 of 291
4/27/09 at 3:03pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

To prevent action taken against climate change is diabolical. Millions dead, millions more starving and displaced by drought, flooding and increased storm activity and strength. Millions of species, forever wiped off the face of the earth. Eco-systems strained beyond repair. And you say increased levels of CO2 will have the positive effect of making things lush. Sheesh.

You are certainly free to believe that climate change is bad, that humans are causing it, and that it will ultimately result in the destruction of the planet. You are also entitled to believe that those things will happen unless more of our personal liberties are given up to the government.

I do not begrudge you the right to believe that way and openly state your belief. For if that right is taken away from you, it will also have been taken away from me.

However, I don't buy it.

I do my best to protect the environment within my own personal sphere of influence, and within my own financial means. I try to support companies that have environmentally responsible methodologies and policies. I support research and development of clean, renewable energy sources.

But I don't buy into the contrived mass paranoia intended to scare the people into allowing the government to exert greater control and influence over their lives.

Impending catastrophe or not, I feel that we the people can come up with our own solutions without having to give up essential freedoms to an ever-growing government.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #163 of 291
4/27/09 at 3:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

You are certainly free to believe that climate change is bad, that humans are causing it, and that it will ultimately result in the destruction of the planet. You are also entitled to believe that those things will happen unless more of our personal liberties are given up to the government.

I do not begrudge you the right to believe that way and openly state your belief. For if that right is taken away from you, it will also have been taken away from me.

However, I don't buy it.

I do my best to protect the environment within my own personal sphere of influence, and within my own financial means. I try to support companies that have environmentally responsible methodologies and policies. I support research and development of clean, renewable energy sources.

But I don't buy into the contrived mass paranoia intended to scare the people into allowing the government to exert greater control and influence over their lives.

Impending catastrophe or not, I feel that we the people can come up with our own solutions without having to give up essential freedoms to an ever-growing government.

I said it before and I'll say it again, I commend you on your actions.

However, how many do the same, are their enough to make a difference and if not why should you bother.

If not enough people do what you do then your efforts are for nought.

Does that make your efforts worth the effort?
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post #164 of 291
4/27/09 at 3:22pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

I said it before and I'll say it again, I commend you on your actions.

However, how many do the same, are their enough to make a difference and if not why should you bother.

If not enough people do what you do then your efforts are for nought.

Does that make your efforts worth the effort?

I'm not sure I follow you. I do it because I want to.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #165 of 291
4/27/09 at 3:24pm
Thread Starter 
NBC Affiliate Meteorologist Rips MSNBC for Apocalyptic Global Warming Special

The last paragraph is quite interesting:

Quote:
“Interesting note: In the fourth quarter of 2008 as GE/NBC stock fell 30 percent, GE spent $4.26 million on lobbying — that’s $46,304 each day, including weekends, Thanksgiving and Christmas,” Steffen wrote. “In 2008, the company spent a grand total of $18.66 million on lobbying. Reviewing their lobbying filings, GE’s specific lobbying issues included the ‘Climate Stewardship Act,’ ‘Electric Utility Cap and Trade Act,’ ‘Global Warming Reduction Act,’ ‘Federal Government Greenhouse Gas Registry Act,’ ‘Low Carbon Economy Act,’ and ‘Lieberman-Warner Climate Security Act.’ Do you think this ‘big business’ is just concerned about the environment?”

It's not only Big Government that stands to benefit from this, but "evil" Big Business as well.

We are being fleeced.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #166 of 291
4/27/09 at 3:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

You are certainly free to believe that climate change is bad, that humans are causing it, and that it will ultimately result in the destruction of the planet. You are also entitled to believe that those things will happen unless more of our personal liberties are given up to the government.

I do not begrudge you the right to believe that way and openly state your belief. For if that right is taken away from you, it will also have been taken away from me.

However, I don't buy it.

I do my best to protect the environment within my own personal sphere of influence, and within my own financial means. I try to support companies that have environmentally responsible methodologies and policies. I support research and development of clean, renewable energy sources.

But I don't buy into the contrived mass paranoia intended to scare the people into allowing the government to exert greater control and influence over their lives.

Impending catastrophe or not, I feel that we the people can come up with our own solutions without having to give up essential freedoms to an ever-growing government.

That's great that you do jazzguru. You may well be more green than I, though I am now, recycling and planting my own vegetables and doing so organically, I know I fall far short of what I could do though.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

Reply

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

Reply
post #167 of 291
4/27/09 at 4:02pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

That's great that you do jazzguru. You may well be more green than I, though I am now, recycling and planting my own vegetables and doing so organically, I know I fall far short of what I could do though.

Thanks. See, that's kind of my point, though. We can do a lot of this stuff on our own without it being mandated, regulated, and/or forced upon us by the government.

For purposes of full disclosure:

I own two cars. The one my wife drives is a Saturn that gets 30+ mpg. The one I drive is a Geo Metro that averages 43 mpg.

Every lightbulb in my home is a CFL. I may even switch to LEDs when the price comes down a bit more.

We do grow some of our own vegetables (tomatoes, lettuce, herbs).

But the funny thing is that a lot of these things we do are because they actually save us money (either immediately or over the long term), not necessarily because they're good for the environment.

Being in Arizona, one of my dreams is to someday own a home that is completely solar (water heating and electricity) and off the "grid" (self sustaining).

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #168 of 291
4/27/09 at 4:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

NBC Affiliate Meteorologist Rips MSNBC for Apocalyptic Global Warming Special

The last paragraph is quite interesting:



It's not only Big Government that stands to benefit from this, but "evil" Big Business as well.

We are being fleeced.

I'll have to watch the series to judge it for myself.

Having said that, most of what he said is a non sequiter and an ad hominem to boot.

Ice floating in the water. Give me a break. Archimedes Principle was one of the first things we studied at VTC (a two year technical college at the time) in hydraulics class.

EDIT: Circa 1958-9

Quote:
the Skate found open water both in the summer and following winter. We surfaced near the North Pole in the winter through thin ice less than 2 feet thick. The ice moves from Alaska to Iceland and the wind and tides causes open water as the ice breaks up. The Ice at the polar ice cap is an average of 6-8 feet thick, but with the wind and tides the ice will crack and open into large polynyas (areas of open water), these areas will refreeze over with thin ice. We had sonar equipment that would find these open or thin areas to come up through, thus limiting any damage to the submarine. The ice would also close in and cover these areas crushing together making large ice ridges both above and below the water. We came up through a very large opening in 1958 that was 1/2 mile long and 200 yards wide. The wind came up and closed the opening within 2 hours. On both trips we were able to find open water. We were not able to surface through ice thicker than 3 feet.

And now you know the reason why.

The Arctic ice cap reached an all time minimum (during the satellite era) in the very early fall of 2007. The very early fall of 2008 was a close second. The vast majority of Arctic ice pack is now one year old pack ice. It is of absolutely no surprise that this one year pack ice will recover significantly during the following winter, given the previous minima reached.

There is every expectation that the 2009 minimum will closely follow the 2008 and 2007 minima. They even have time lapse videos composed from successive satellite images, where it is all too obvious as to what is happening to the Arctic ice cap and it's long term implications, a truly free zone of ice cover extending past the North Pole during the annual fall equinox ice cap minima (~September 21).

Needless to say that multi-year pack ice has decreased dramatically.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #169 of 291
4/27/09 at 4:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Thanks. See, that's kind of my point, though. We can do a lot of this stuff on our own without it being mandated, regulated, and/or forced upon us by the government.

For purposes of full disclosure:

I own two cars. The one my wife drives is a Saturn that gets 30+ mpg. The one I drive is a Geo Metro that averages 43 mpg.

Every lightbulb in my home is a CFL. I may even switch to LEDs when the price comes down a bit more.

We do grow some of our own vegetables (tomatoes, lettuce, herbs).

But the funny thing is that a lot of these things we do are because they actually save us money (either immediately or over the long term), not necessarily because they're good for the environment.

Being in Arizona, one of my dreams is to someday own a home that is completely solar (water heating and electricity) and off the "grid" (self sustaining).

Can't argue with any of that and I'd love to do the same.

I don't think it's realistic to think that government doesn't play a role, especially not concerning climate change. If the people vote them into office, they are supposed to represent us, however far from reality that actually turns out. Ron Paul, who I'm sure your more trusting of than most of the other two main parties representatives, plan would simply give businesses free reign with the notion that if they polluted they would be held accountable by those that would then sue them. If that's all, that those who hold up the constitution can offer, then the polluters will have a field day. I'd much rather the constitution was upheld to offer real protection, which I believe it does, than that interpretation of it.

p.s. my camper van, currently my only vehicle gets about 15 mpg's but I'll be buying something more sensible soon.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

Reply

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

Reply
post #170 of 291
4/27/09 at 4:49pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Can't argue with any of that and I'd love to do the same.

I don't think it's realistic to think that government doesn't play a role, especially not concerning climate change. If the people vote them into office, they are supposed to represent us, however far from reality that actually turns out. Ron Paul, who I'm sure your more trusting of than most of the other two main parties representatives, plan would simply give businesses free reign with the notion that if they polluted they would be held accountable by those that would then sue them. If that's all, that those who hold up the constitution can offer, then the polluters will have a field day. I'd much rather the constitution was upheld to offer real protection, which I believe it does, than that interpretation of it.

p.s. my camper van, currently my only vehicle gets about 15 mpg's but I'll be buying something more sensible soon.

With respect to letting the private sector (business) figure this out, I seriously don't think the polluters would have a field day. I think it has gotten to a point where most people--whether or not they believe the planet is in danger of catastrophic disaster due to climate change--realize we need to take care of our crap (literally and figuratively ).

Where we disagree is what role the government should have in helping us clean up our crap.

I don't think increasing taxes (cap and trade) is the answer.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #171 of 291
4/27/09 at 4:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Can't argue with any of that and I'd love to do the same.

I don't think it's realistic to think that government doesn't play a role, especially not concerning climate change. If the people vote them into office, they are supposed to represent us, however far from reality that actually turns out. Ron Paul, who I'm sure your more trusting of than most of the other two main parties representatives, plan would simply give businesses free reign with the notion that if they polluted they would be held accountable by those that would then sue them. If that's all, that those who hold up the constitution can offer, then the polluters will have a field day. I'd much rather the constitution was upheld to offer real protection, which I believe it does, than that interpretation of it.

p.s. my camper van, currently my only vehicle gets about 15 mpg's but I'll be buying something more sensible soon.

It pains me every time I see an RV, particularly the ones towing Hummers.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #172 of 291
4/27/09 at 4:51pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

it pains me every time I see an RV, particularly the ones towing Hummers.

Cool. I'mma trade in my Geo for a Hummer just to tick franksargent off.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #173 of 291
4/27/09 at 4:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

With respect to letting the private sector (business) figure this out, I seriously don't think the polluters would have a field day. I think it has gotten to a point where most people--whether or not they believe the planet is in danger of catastrophic disaster due to climate change--realize we need to take care of our crap (literally and figuratively ).

Where we disagree is what role the government should have in helping us clean up our crap.

I don't think increasing taxes (cap and trade) is the answer.

I call bullshit.

Where would we be today with no Clean Water Act?

Where would we be today with no Clean Air Act?

Where would we be today with no EPA?

Up Shit Creek, wearing a gas mask, eating and drinking toxic waste!

Of course, the Bush administration totally hosed the EPA, an eight year stall.

Thankfully, the courts nailed them in two landmark cases.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #174 of 291
4/27/09 at 4:55pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

I call bullshit.

Where would we be today with no Clean Water Act?

Where would we be today with no Clean Air Act?

Where would we be today with no EPA?

Up Shit Creek, wearing a gas mask, eating and drinking toxic waste!

I disagree.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #175 of 291
4/27/09 at 5:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I disagree.

Good. However, you don't count in this round. My guy won.

See you, don't want to be you.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #176 of 291
4/27/09 at 5:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

It pains me every time I see an RV, particularly the ones towing Hummers.

It isn't one of those monsters that tows cars behind fortunately. It's actually a 1600cc 32 years old Toyota that was first lent to me and then I bought it after making expensive repairs to keep it running. There is an argument to be made that keeping it running is better than all the mining and energy consumed in making a new vehicle. I use it very infrequently fortunately and have made just one long trip of about 200 miles in it, in fact it sits on the gravel nearly all the time as I rarely require it's use currently.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #177 of 291
4/27/09 at 5:07pm
Interesting,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...tection_Agency
Quote:
In June 2005, a memo revealed that Philip Cooney, former chief of staff for the White House Council on Environmental Quality, and former lobbyist for the American Petroleum Institute, had personally edited documents, summarizing government research on climate change, before their release.[18] Cooney resigned two days after the memo was published in The New York Times. Cooney said he had been planning to resign for over two years, implying the timing of his resignation was just a coincidence. Specifically, he said he had planned to resign to "spend time with his family."[19] One week after resigning he took a job at Exxon Mobil in their public affairs department.

Gets better,
Quote:
In December 2007, EPA Administrator Stephen L. Johnson approved a draft of a document that declared that climate change imperiled the public welfare - a decision that would trigger the first national mandatory global-warming regulations. Associate Deputy Administrator Jason Burnett e-mailed the draft to the White House. White House aides - who had long resisted mandatory regulations as a way to address climate change - knew the gist of what Johnson's finding would be, Burnett said. They also knew that once they opened the attachment, it would become a public record, making it controversial and difficult to rescind. So they didn't open it; rather, they called Johnson and asked him to take back the draft. U.S. law clearly stated that the final decision was the EPA administrator's, not President Bush's. Johnson rescinded the draft; in July 2008, he issued a new version which did not state that global warming was danger to public welfare. Burnett resigned in protest.
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post #178 of 291
4/27/09 at 5:25pm
Bob Dylan-The Times They Are A-Changin

Quote:
The Times They Are A-Changin'

Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'.
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.

The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is
Rapidly fadin'.
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'.

Dirty EPA Hippies now rule the roost!
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #179 of 291
4/27/09 at 5:35pm
time to inhale

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

Reply

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

Reply
post #180 of 291
4/27/09 at 6:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

NBC Affiliate Meteorologist Rips MSNBC for Apocalyptic Global Warming Special

The last paragraph is quite interesting:



It's not only Big Government that stands to benefit from this, but "evil" Big Business as well.

We are being fleeced.

One thing worth mentioning. Antarctica is huge with peaks of over 6,000 feet above sea-level. So your buddies hypothesis, that the ice that melts will simply be displaced by water that the ice currently takes up is nonsense. Also the oceans effect the gulf stream and as this cold water flows from the melting ice the gulf stream reacts. If it reaches a tipping point it could irrevocably change the climate globally.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

Reply

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

Reply
post #181 of 291
4/27/09 at 6:19pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Good. However, you don't count in this round. My guy won.

See you, don't want to be you.

To the contrary. I count more than you do. I count so much the government is afraid of me.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #182 of 291
4/27/09 at 6:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

To the contrary. I count more than you do. I count so much the government is afraid of me.

That must be why they do everything you want of them

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

Reply

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #183 of 291
4/27/09 at 7:23pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

That must be why they do everything you want of them

You're not serious...

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #184 of 291
4/27/09 at 7:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

You're not serious...

No, I definitely was not being serious.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #185 of 291
4/27/09 at 10:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

To the contrary. I count more than you do. I count so much the government is afraid of me.

What an honor. The government is also afraid of the Terry Nicholses and Timothy McVeighs and David Koreshes and Ted Kaczynskis of the country.

Um... newsflash... having the government be afraid of people like you is nothing to brag about.
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post #186 of 291
4/28/09 at 7:22am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

What an honor. The government is also afraid of the Terry Nicholses and Timothy McVeighs and David Koreshes and Ted Kaczynskis of the country.

Um... newsflash... having the government be afraid of people like you is nothing to brag about.

You are comparing me to the likes of these madmen?

How convenient for you.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #187 of 291
4/28/09 at 7:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

One thing worth mentioning. Antarctica is huge with peaks of over 6,000 feet above sea-level. So your buddies hypothesis, that the ice that melts will simply be displaced by water that the ice currently takes up is nonsense. Also the oceans effect the gulf stream and as this cold water flows from the melting ice the gulf stream reacts. If it reaches a tipping point it could irrevocably change the climate globally.

No.

He is referencing only to sea ice that is already floating. So technically, based solely on Archimedes' Principle there should be no net change in sea level.

But this is a non sequiter, as this has been pointed out by many people at many times in the past.

However, this does not account for thermal expansion of the oceans as their mean temperature increases, and that this one of the two primary factors in the current well documented sea level rise globally.

The other major contribution is, of course, as you mentioned, net melt runoff from glacial ice sheets lying above MSL.

The Greenland ice core data strongly suggest what you have described in the latter part of your post, and strongly suggests much stronger climate variability in the Northern Hemisphere than has occured globally.

Because the North Pole does not have a very large land mass like there exists at the South Pole, a much better understanding of the Greenland ice sheet is critically important going forward.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #188 of 291
4/28/09 at 7:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

No.

He is referencing onlt to sea ice that is already floating. So technically, based solely on Archimedes' Principle there should be no net change in sea level.

But this is a non sequiter, as this has been pointed out by many people at many times in the past.

However, this does not account for thermal expansion of the oceans as their mean temperature increases, and that this one of the two primary factors in the current well documented sea level rise globally.

The other major contribution is, of course, as you mentioned, net melt runoff from glacial ice sheets lying above MSL.

The Greenland ice core data strongly suggest what you have described in the latter part of your post, and suggest much stronger climate variability in the Northern Hemisphere than has occured globally.

Because the North Pole does not have a very large land mass like there exists at the South Pole, a much better understanding of the Greenland ice sheet is critically important going forward.

Thanks, I look into it more. I was looking at geology.com which also had information on magnetic influence on the globe etc, which goes well beyond my current pay-grade!

Question, why is the South pole such a big issue if Antarctica contains 90% of the worlds ice, why's land mass so important? Antarctica from what I've read is the same size as US + Mexico.

As opposed to just one of the things I stated in an earlier post about Antarctica peaks going over 6000 feet. More accurate is "Right now, the West Antarctic Ice Sheet has a huge mass, towering more than 6,000 feet above sea level over a large section of Antarctica." ~ copied from ENS

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~ William Hazlitt

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~ William Hazlitt

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post #189 of 291
4/28/09 at 8:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Thanks, I look into it more. I was looking at geology.com which also had information on magnetic influence on the globe etc, which goes well beyond my current pay-grade!

Question, why is the South pole such a big issue if Antarctica contains 90% of the worlds ice, why's land mass so important? Antarctica from what I've read is the same size as US + Mexico.

As opposed to just one of the things I stated in an earlier post about Antarctica peaks going over 6000 feet. More accurate is "Right now, the West Antarctic Ice Sheet has a huge mass, towering more than 6,000 feet above sea level over a large section of Antarctica." ~ copied from ENS

Damn, I just lost the lengthy reply I had started due to a screw up on my part.

OK, I'll just have to be very brief.

Land mass is important for a very obvious reason.

Only frozen water lying above MSL can possibly change sea level significantly.

The vast majority of ground level stores of fresh water is glacial ice sheets. Lakes, rivers, reservoirs, ground water, exceteras, only make up a small fraction and these sources and are in a state of quasi-static equilibrium (i. e. there is not much fluctuation in these from a fresh water budget standpoint).

Does this in any way answer your question?
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #190 of 291
4/28/09 at 8:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Damn, I just lost the lengthy reply I had started due to a screw up on my part.

OK, I'll just have to be very brief.

Land mass is important for a very obvious reason.

Only frozen water lying above MSL can possibly change sea level significantly.

The vast majority of ground level stores of fresh water is glacial ice sheets. Lakes, rivers, reservoirs, ground water, exceteras, only make up a small fraction and these sources and are in a state of quasi-static equilibrium (i. e. there is not much fluctuation in these from a fresh water budget standpoint).

Does this in any way answer your question?

I hate it when that happens

But yes it does. The South Pole has a higher land mass which means that melting ice will raise sea levels higher than ice already below sea level melting can do. When that melts it contributes to a higher sea level through an increased mass of new water and ice, as opposed to just thermal expansion contributions alone, which raise sea levels also. Thankyou.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

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post #191 of 291
4/29/09 at 2:31pm
I can't see American's voting for higher gas prices, can you? http://www.reuters.com/article/envir...33749120080813 that 12.2 billion miles not driven prevented a minimum of 610 billion pounds of CO2 entering the atmosphere.

Texas is a very messy place- http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...w-high-res-ma/

Pretty please America, vote to raise gas prices- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZowFT0ToAM

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

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post #192 of 291
4/29/09 at 3:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

What an honor. The government is also afraid of the Terry Nicholses and Timothy McVeighs and David Koreshes and Ted Kaczynskis of the country.

Um... newsflash... having the government be afraid of people like you is nothing to brag about.

Agreed.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

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post #193 of 291
4/29/09 at 3:27pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Agreed.

You agree with an ad-hom?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

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post #194 of 291
4/29/09 at 3:29pm
Thread Starter 
No continents have set a record high temperature since 1974.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

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post #195 of 291
4/29/09 at 3:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

You agree with an ad-hom?

He rightly pointed out that having the government afraid of people like you is nothing to brag about which you yourself clearly stated. You obviously think your more powerful than franksargent and no doubt you see many in that same light. Personally I think big business with their connections to government are far more scared of people who fight to prevent CC through laws than your impact will ever be.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #196 of 291
4/29/09 at 3:48pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

He rightly pointed out that having the government afraid of people like you is nothing to brag about which you yourself clearly stated. You obviously think your more powerful than franksargent and no doubt you see many in that same light. Personally I think big business with their connections to government are far more scared of people who fight to prevent CC through laws than your impact will ever be.

Another ad-hom? Cut it out, already.

Equating me with the likes of domestic terrorists, cult leaders, etc. is a blatant ad-hom, not to mention absurd.

Edited to ad:

Instead of telling me what I think, why not ask me what I think? You could ask me to elaborate on my original statement (about the government fearing me).

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #197 of 291
4/29/09 at 4:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Another ad-hom? Cut it out, already.

Equating me with the likes of domestic terrorists, cult leaders, etc. is a blatant ad-hom, not to mention absurd.

Edited to ad:

Instead of telling me what I think, why not ask me what I think? You could ask me to elaborate on my original statement (about the government fearing me).

Exactly jazzguru, there are reasons why you think the government is afraid of you and it's not always something which is something to brag about. Please tell me why you think the government is so afraid of you.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #198 of 291
4/30/09 at 8:38am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Exactly jazzguru, there are reasons why you think the government is afraid of you and it's not always something which is something to brag about. Please tell me why you think the government is so afraid of you.

So I'm bragging about it, now?

As Charlie Brown would say: good grief!

Why do I think the government is afraid of me? Well, there are several reasons.

1) I don't believe I should have to depend on the government for everything.

2) I don't buy into the 2 party system (which is really 2 branches of the same party)

3) I believe the government has far exceeded its Constitutional limits, and must be drastically reduced in size and power in order for this nation to prosper.

4) I believe that the Founders built in a "self-destruct" mechanism into the fabric of our founding documents--the assertion that we the people have the right and the duty to overthrow opressive, despotic government. I do not think that time is now, but I am not foolish enough to say that it could never come.

Those that are in positions of power and prestige in the government (and businesses that depend on large government) see me as a threat to that power and prestige, merely for thinking the way I do. So much so, that they are now targeting anyone who exhibits any indication of thinking the way I do--regardless of whether they have actually done anything illegal or contrary to the laws of this country--painting them as disloyal, unpatriotic, and extremist.

It's a new brand of McCarthyism, and it is wrong.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #199 of 291
4/30/09 at 8:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

So I'm bragging about it, now?

As Charlie Brown would say: good grief!

Why do I think the government is afraid of me? Well, there are several reasons.

1) I don't believe I should have to depend on the government for everything.

2) I don't buy into the 2 party system (which is really 2 branches of the same party)

3) I believe the government has far exceeded its Constitutional limits, and must be drastically reduced in size and power in order for this nation to prosper.

4) I believe that the Founders built in a "self-destruct" mechanism into the fabric of our founding documents--the assertion that we the people have the right and the duty to overthrow opressive, despotic government. I do not think that time is now, but I am not foolish enough to say that it could never come.

Those that are in positions of power and prestige in the government (and businesses that depend on large government) see me as a threat to that power and prestige, merely for thinking the way I do. So much so, that they are now targeting anyone who exhibits any indication of thinking the way I do--regardless of whether they have actually done anything illegal or contrary to the laws of this country--painting them as disloyal, unpatriotic, and extremist.

It's a new brand of McCarthyism, and it is wrong.

OMG they must be shitting their pants with fear!
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post #200 of 291
4/30/09 at 9:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

So I'm bragging about it, now?

As Charlie Brown would say: good grief!

Why do I think the government is afraid of me? Well, there are several reasons.

1) I don't believe I should have to depend on the government for everything.

2) I don't buy into the 2 party system (which is really 2 branches of the same party)

3) I believe the government has far exceeded its Constitutional limits, and must be drastically reduced in size and power in order for this nation to prosper.

4) I believe that the Founders built in a "self-destruct" mechanism into the fabric of our founding documents--the assertion that we the people have the right and the duty to overthrow opressive, despotic government. I do not think that time is now, but I am not foolish enough to say that it could never come.

Those that are in positions of power and prestige in the government (and businesses that depend on large government) see me as a threat to that power and prestige, merely for thinking the way I do. So much so, that they are now targeting anyone who exhibits any indication of thinking the way I do--regardless of whether they have actually done anything illegal or contrary to the laws of this country--painting them as disloyal, unpatriotic, and extremist.

It's a new brand of McCarthyism, and it is wrong.

Most of the views you hold are held by the majority of the population IMHO. The two parties are of course very similar, but surely you accept the differences are substantial within the framework of an industrialised democracy. I have often, like you seen too much alike about them for my liking and believe that at least a prominent third party is needed in the US to widen the populaces perspective and choice.
I personally believe the real threat to government comes in the form of functioning ideas not rhetoric. Things that can actually be written into law, by being focused on by critics of current policies that expose harmfull policies for what they are. Evolution not revolution, if you will.

Sorry,poorly written on iphone.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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