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Torture - Page 3

post #81 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Bush performed the torture himself, no doubt.

It's called the Nuremberg Defense, it worked for the Nazis, and I feel we'll be hearing it in Congressional hearings before too long...the buck stops where? As Commander in Chief the President is accountable for the actions of all US forces, regardless of whether or not he gave the orders personally.



IRT the semantic arguments some seem to be throwing around the topic:

"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."

"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'torture' is."

Hmm...
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post #82 of 121
Thread Starter 
Interesting: Churchgoers (aka, "good" Christians) are MORE likely to support torture, especially those who attend evangelical churches.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/US/04/30/religion.torture/

Whatever happened to "Love thy neighbor"? "Thou shall not kill?" and other things?

Some people believe the US is a Christian Nation (a placard a one of the Fox Tea Parties had this written on it); is the US a nation of torture?

What is religion in the US? (asks someone who was born into a fervently Southern Baptist family)

 

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post #83 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Interesting: Churchgoers (aka, "good" Christians) are MORE likely to support torture, especially those who attend evangelical churches.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/US/04/30/religion.torture/

Whatever happened to "Love thy neighbor"? "Thou shall not kill?" and other things?

Some people believe the US is a Christian Nation (a placard a one of the Fox Tea Parties had this written on it); is the US a nation of torture?

I think you're seeing what you want to see in the results of this "survey".

Regardless, I think you can agree that not all "churchgoers" advocate or support torture.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #84 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I think you're seeing what you want to see in the results of this "survey".

Possibly people are, but I'm trying to understand why people who regularly attend church should drop their approval of torture to nearly zero.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Regardless, I think you can agree that not all "churchgoers" advocate or support torture.

The study isn't saying that.


Here are the numbers:

General U.S. population:
(71% believe that torture can be justified even if only rarely!)

15% torture can often be justified
34% can sometimes be justified
22% can rarely be justified
25% can never be justified
4% don't know/refuse to answer


Attend religious services at least weekly:
(73% believe that torture can be justified even if only rarely!)

16% torture can often be justified
38% can sometimes be justified
19% can rarely be justified
25% can never be justified
2% don't know/refuse to answer


Attend religious services monthly or a few times a year:
(74% believe that torture can be justified even if only rarely!)

18% torture can often be justified
33% can sometimes be justified
23% can rarely be justified
23% can never be justified
3% don't know/refuse to answer


Attend religious services seldom or never:
(69% believe that torture can be justified even if only rarely!)

12% torture can often be justified
30% can sometimes be justified
27% can rarely be justified
26% can never be justified
5% don't know/refuse to answer


There's not as much variability among these groups as the headline suggests. However, in my own view, someone that regularly attends a religious service and presumably believes and adheres to a higher moral code should break down like this:

0% torture can often be justified
0% can sometimes be justified
0% can rarely be justified
100% can never be justified
0% don't know/refuse to answer
post #85 of 121
Thread Starter 
The guards who got in trouble at Abu Ghraib are saying they were scapegoats for The war President George W. Bush, and plan to appeal their convictions.

From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghr...ment_officials

U.S. President George W. Bush claimed the acts were in no way indicative of normal or acceptable practices in the United States Army.


Guess he didn't get the memo.

 

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post #86 of 121
Isn't correlation /= causation inscribed on the first page of every statistics textbook?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #87 of 121
Interesting Op-Ed piece on the torture investigation, or lack thereof by Joe Galloway, decorated Vietnam War correspondent and co-author of We Were Soldiers:

Washington still dancing the torture minuet

Quote:
There they go again, those folks in Washington, D.C. Everyone wants the power; nobody wants the responsibility.

Were back to the question of which Bush administration officials ordered Justice Department lawyers to concoct some legal way to use illegal torture methods on the prisoners we were taking in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and elsewhere.

It appears that no one in power or recently out of power wants to know the answer to that question.

Quote:
In the process, we learned that one high-ranking al-Qaida prisoner was subjected to waterboarding, a barbaric tool in the torturers kit that involves suffocation and near-drowning, not one time for 20 seconds, as reported earlier, but 183 times. Khalid Sheikh Mohamed got the same treatment 183 times, or an average of six times a day.

The new director of national intelligence, Navy Adm. Dennis Blair, said some useful information was squeezed out of the torture chambers, but he isnt certain this information couldnt have been gained without resorting to techniques borrowed from the Spanish Inquisition.

Quote:
Even if you believe the end justifies the means and ignore the numerous factual flaws in this ex post facto defense, it doesnt address the question of how many of the 4,954 American troops whove been killed to date in Afghanistan and Iraq were killed by Islamic jihadists who were recruited in part by the revelations we were torturing helpless Muslims. How much safer did those orders to torture make our young men and women?

The plain fact is that waterboarding is illegal under U.S. law. Its illegal under international laws and treaties we helped negotiate, we approved and we adhered to until President Bush and his men and women decided we wouldnt.

Quote:
Yes, its an ugly chapter in the life of a nation that prides itself on its freedoms and its rule of law. But its more than that: Its a splendid opportunity for a bunch of politicians from both parties to find their spines, or borrow some, and get to work cleaning out the dark corners in the White House and emptying the closets of skeletons.

I think that we may never see just how far the rot extended; nobody in Washington wants to take the red pill and see just how far to the top the rabbit hole went.
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post #88 of 121
Obama's attitude on torture could to set quite a precedent! "Let's forget the past and move on" could be interpreted as "it's OK to commit a crime, because once you've done the deed, it's in the past, and thus we're going to forgive and forget".

In practice, not really of course; it depends on who the perps are. Its more like another case of one interpretation and execution of the law for the well-connected and powerful, and the exact letter of law for the peasants..... in tandem with the ongoing state of mass denial, where we resist with all force any possibility that certain individuals/institutions get scrutinized and exposed for what we don't want to see them as.
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post #89 of 121
Thread Starter 
Memo out soon... GW & Cronies, Inc trying to "soften" the report:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews

Why would they need to do that?

Hmmm.....

 

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post #90 of 121
Condie Rice gets another grilling on torture - from a 4th grader
Quote:
According to the Washington Post, Misha Lerner, a fourth grader at the Jewish Primary Day School of the Nation's Capital asked Rice to comment on President Obama's rejection of Bush-era interrogation methods.

Quote:
Last week, she told the Stanford student, in an exchange caught on video and widely viewed on youtube, that none of the "enhanced interrogation techniques" used under the Bush administration were illegal, because Bush had approved them. "By definition, if it was authorised by the president, it did not violate our obligations under the Convention Against Torture," she said.
post #91 of 121
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPoster View Post

To get back OT, has this been mentioned yet?

After Fox News Channel's Sean Hannity made a seemingly impromptu offer last week to undergo waterboarding as a benefit for charity, MSNBC's Keith Olbermann leapt at it. He offered $1,000 to the families of U.S. troops for every second Hannity withstood the technique.

Well Hannity chickened out.
But not Mancow,
http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local...and-Loses.html
Quote:
"It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that's no joke,"Mancow said, likening it to a time when he nearly drowned as a child. "It is such an odd feeling to have water poured down your nose with your head back...It was instantaneous...and I don't want to say this: absolutely torture."
post #92 of 121
Thread Starter 
Nobody defending waterboarding? Where's Cheney when you need him?

Hannity... yep, he's a chicken alright. Lots of noise with little meat that likes laying rotten eggs.

Remember, GW "kept us safe"™.... AFTER not reading a memo that detailed an attack of major proportions that happened on HIS watch.


Ahh, Sunday morning hangovers.

 

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post #93 of 121
Yes, but, don't pay attention to Cheney, or Rumsfeld, or Bush, or the Army, or the CIA.... IMPEACH PILOSI GODDAMMIT!!!!
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post #94 of 121
Who supervised this, the CIA?
Why is Obama lying and protecting the guilty?


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...show-rape.html
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post #95 of 121
Thread Starter 
Just a thought:

Isn't rape punishable by death in the Muslim world? If photos like that are released, chaos could ensue. Sad that such photos seem to exist and that an atmosphere admonishing hideous acts was condoned by GW & Cronies, Inc™. Hopefully, many photos will be released but any that would certainly inflame the current situation could prove a disaster; it could be better for Obama to sit on the and face the heat for not releasing them than to release them and cause an even bigger problem, possibly deaths.

Imagine if some included images of Muhammed; recall the outrage over the comics in Denmark? They could truly turn the entire mess into a disaster.

Obviously, the military that we have just honored, along with the intelligence services, did not act in their finest manner over the past few years. So much for being what Rummy called the best trained military in the world. Sad that the country was led down that path. Now Obama is getting kicked by it by having to cover some of it up; it is indeed possible he only recently saw some of the photos.

---

BTW, when is Apple going to update the spell checker in the OS? It still doesn't recognize Obama, Biden, Cheney, or some other important names (not that I consider Cheney important). Jefferson, Lincoln, Kennedy others are fine.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

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post #96 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Just a thought:

Isn't rape punishable by death in the Muslim world? If photos like that are released, chaos could ensue. Sad that such photos seem to exist and that an atmosphere admonishing hideous acts was condoned by GW & Cronies, Inc. Hopefully, many photos will be released but any that would certainly inflame the current situation could prove a disaster; it could be better for Obama to sit on the and face the heat for not releasing them than to release them and cause an even bigger problem, possibly deaths.

Imagine if some included images of Muhammed; recall the outrage over the comics in Denmark? They could truly turn the entire mess into a disaster.

Obviously, the military that we have just honored, along with the intelligence services, did not act in their finest manner over the past few years. So much for being what Rummy called the best trained military in the world. Sad that the country was led down that path. Now Obama is getting kicked by it by having to cover some of it up; it is indeed possible he only recently saw some of the photos.

---

BTW, when is Apple going to update the spell checker in the OS? It still doesn't recognize Obama, Biden, Cheney, or some other important names (not that I consider Cheney important). Jefferson, Lincoln, Kennedy others are fine.


I would think that Obama has seen some of the worst images, including the rapes and I also expect that he knows that worse routinely went on outside the view of the camera. Those that didn't inform the president would quickly be fired, if they deliberately gave the wrong impression to him. It just doesn't seem likely they would mislead him in that way. The statements given by those tortured substantiated these practices, beyond doubt anyway, which I'm sure Obama already knew.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #97 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

BTW, when is Apple going to update the spell checker in the OS? It still doesn't recognize Obama, Biden, Cheney, or some other important names (not that I consider Cheney important). Jefferson, Lincoln, Kennedy others are fine.

Either wait or make spell checker learn.

Right click, learn spelling.
post #98 of 121
Unbelievable madness.

"This is at Abu Ghraib ... The women were passing messages out saying 'Please come and kill me, because of what's happened' and basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys, children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. And the worst above all of that is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror. It's going to come out."
~http://theragblog.blogspot.com/2009/...ed-at-abu.html
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #99 of 121
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

Either wait or make spell checker learn.

Right click, learn spelling.

I know; I just haven't bothered yet, hoping Apple would beat me to it.

 

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post #100 of 121
Same story here,
http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2009/05/1...at-abu-ghraib/
and hundreds, thousands of other sites.

Started to read some of the comments and was, kinda, shocked to read this,
Quote:
How is this torture? This picture represents everyday life in San Francisco and they claim if you dont allow it youre being intolerant - even homophobic.

There is nothing worse than fake outrage just to promote a political agenda.

What a fucking moron.

Also,
Quote:
If it happened and there is really no evidence to show it did, where are all the we have to respect their culture crowd? We are talking about Iraqis attacking Iraqis here. We just took pictures. Sort of like National Geographic.

Well we know these two prime examples of humanity don't lean Democrat.

Could this be true?
Quote:
After seeing the exact story on digg I knew I would be top story here.
the story is 5 years old, Hersh recanted the story 3 years ago when pushed on whether he has actually seen the tape ( he hasnt )

This is just more left wing lies and bullshit that gets regurgitated as fact by you lefties who just cant get a life
post #101 of 121
Thread Starter 
Egads. If some of the news stories are right, we don't want these photos out; nobody should. But, they need to be used to bring justice. The reputation of the US is at stake.

Children sodomized in front of their mothers? This was done to help advance the cause of the US in the war in Iraq?


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_208430.html

Original story from AP.

 

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post #102 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

I know; I just haven't bothered yet, hoping Apple would beat me to it.

I thought you did but, what the hell, maybe of use to some here.

When typing out Osama, it still showed the corrected spelling as Osaka.

Learn spelling is helpful to me when I post after a few, well more than a few, and I don't have so many redlined words to check and correct because the spell police is ever vigilant around here, or used to be.
post #103 of 121
Q- Is the Pentagon lying about the unreleased photos not showing rape?

A- Yes.

"The Daily Beast has obtained specific corroboration of the British account, which appeared in the London Daily Telegraph, from several reliable sources, including a highly credible senior military officer with firsthand knowledge, who provided even more detail about the graphic photographs that have been withheld from the public by the Obama administration."
~http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...pict-sex-rape/
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #104 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Q- Is the Pentagon lying about the unreleased photos not showing rape?

A- Yes.

"The Daily Beast has obtained specific corroboration of the British account, which appeared in the London Daily Telegraph, from several reliable sources, including a highly credible senior military officer with firsthand knowledge, who provided even more detail about the graphic photographs that have been withheld from the public by the Obama administration."
~http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...pict-sex-rape/

Here's the "change" y'all voted for, folks.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #105 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Here's the "change" y'all voted for, folks.

Yes, as opposed to the moron that allowed such things to happen.

Frankly, if guilty the perps should hang.
post #106 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Yes, as opposed to the moron that allowed such things to happen.

Frankly, if guilty the perps should hang.

WE allowed such things to happen. Hang us all.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #107 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

WE allowed such things to happen. Hang us all.

I thought collective guilt was a liberal thing?

Fact: Bush promoted torture as policy.
post #108 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Here's the "change" y'all voted for, folks.

There's no comparison here between Bush and Obama. Obama hasn't done enough yet, but he's done a lot. Are you really trying to negate what he has done? Absurd.
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post #109 of 121
"during my time in Iraq there was not one instance of actionable intelligence that came out of these interrogation techniques."~ General Ricardo (Rick) Sanchez.

In front of a packed audience tonight at the Times Center in New York City, General Ricardo Sanchez, the former commander of all coalition forces in Iraq, called for a truth commission to investigate the abuses and torture which occurred there~ Huffington Post http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jack-h..._b_209573.html

Leahy want's your signature- http://www.BushTruthCommission.com/
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #110 of 121
Boehner Keeps Pressure on Pelosi for CIA Accusation

Quote:
"It's been three weeks since I asked Speaker Pelosi to back up her allegations that the CIA lied to her or purposely misled her," Boehner said at a news conference. "Allowing this to hang out there is unconscionable, and I just think the silence from Speaker Pelosi is deafening."

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #111 of 121
Quote:
In retrospect, based on the OLC {Office of Legal Counsel] extracts of the OTC report, OMS [Office of Medical Services] contends that the reported sophistication of the preliminary EIT review was exaggerated, at least as it related to the waterboard, and that the power of this EIT was appreciably overstated in the report. Furthermore, OMS contends that the expertise of the SERE psychologist/interrogators on the waterboard was probably misrepresented at the time, as the SERE waterboard experience is so different from the subsequent Agency usage as to make it almost irrelevant. Consequently, according to OMS, there was no a priori reason to believe that applying the waterboard with the frequency and intensity with which it was used by the psychologist/interrogators was either efficacious or medically safe.

There we have it. It's official now. Torture is purely for entertainment purposes of Roman dictators, leaders of Banana Republics and Hitler types.
The bible suggests:
Do to Cheney and Bush what they have done onto others.
post #112 of 121
If the wheels of justice turned fairly it would follow that all modern US presidents have been war criminals worthy of a firing squad.
proud resident of a failed state
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post #113 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

If the wheels of justice turned fairly it would follow that all modern US presidents have been war criminals worthy of a firing squad.

Hard to argue with that, but they (US Presidents) certainly wouldn't be alone.
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You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
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post #114 of 121
Thread Starter 
The CIA agent who back in 2007 said waterboarding was a very effective technique now claims he wasn't even there and has no idea.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article..._waterboarding

The pro-torture nuts used his comments for a long time...

 

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post #115 of 121
Well he is either lying about the former or lying about the latter. Which lie do we pick to believe?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #116 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Well he is either lying about the former or lying about the latter. Which lie do we pick to believe?

It doesn't really look that good for Team Torture either way.

You can choose whichever you please. It won't make any difference to those of us who said it was disgusting, immoral policy all along.
post #117 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Well he is either lying about the former or lying about the latter. Which lie do we pick to believe?

Bush Administration supporters are the most prolific liars out there, so are we at all surprised?
post #118 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Bush Administration supporters are the most prolific liars out there, so are we at all surprised?

Which is a bigger liar, being a claimed warmonger who starts a war, or being a claimed peacemonger who continues the war and escalates it?

Which is the bigger liar, the one who claimed that we are fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here and believes it or the one who claimed it was harmful and breeding thousands of new terrorists while escalating the war over there so we don't have to fight them here?

See platitudes and bullshit only go so far. Obama has not closed won Guantanamo. He hasn't stopped fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here. He is escalating the fight OVER THERE. The only thing that has changed is the lies of the left with regard to caring about such things.

Promising something and delivering it isn't a lie. Promising change and instead being more of the same, well that is the biggest lie you can tell.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #119 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Promising something and delivering it isn't a lie. Promising change and instead being more of the same, well that is the biggest lie you can tell.

Er... no-one's pissed off because George Bush promised a war and delivered it.

Everyone's pissed off because he lied and lied to start it in the first place.

But why restrict yourself to the lies that cost billions and billions of dollars and thousands of lives in an illegal war?

Theres a smorgasbord of lies to chose from in the last administration. Go nuts, trumptman! Pick any one you like!
post #120 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Promising something and delivering it isn't a lie.

No, but "mobile weapons labs", "Niger" and "meetings took place between Iraq and Al Qaeda" were. Those are blatant and deliberate lies of the type that Obama has never made, his failures aside.
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