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iTunes 8.2 beta hints at support of Gracenote's video platform

post #1 of 123
Thread Starter 
Apple on Tuesday equipped iPhone developers with a beta of iTunes 8.2 that appears to add full support for Gracenote's video platform, which includes components for organizing, searching and managing both DVD and Blu-ray optical discs.

Hints to this end were noticed in the credits roll of the new jukebox software by both a MacRumors forum member and AppleInsider reader David. The specific reference reads, "CD, DVD, Blu-ray Disc, and music and video-related data from Gracenote."

The current version of iTunes includes similar credits but without mention of DVD and Blu-ray, leading to speculation that iTunes 8.2 will ship with software support for recognizing and reading Blu-ray discs.

Once called Compact Disc Data Base (or CDDB), Gracenote is a firm that maintains and licenses the largest Internet-accessible database containing information about the contents of audio discs and digital music files. Applications like iTunes tap into the CDDB database to easily provide users with album names, song titles, and other information about their audio CDs, which don't contain such descriptive information by default.

"iTunes connects to this database to look up information about the CDs you own so you can easily select which songs to listen to and sort and view your music library," Apple explains in a support document on its website dated August 2004.

A little over a year ago, Gracenote introduced a similar database for digital video called the "Gracenote Video Platform." It contains five key components, one of which is the VideoID-DVD for "identification, search and organization of physical DVD, HD-DVD, and Blu-Ray disc collections." Similar to the firm's CDDB database, it provides metadata, cover art, synopsis, cast/credits, and detailed product information for identified video discs.

It therefore appears that iTunes 8.2 will support Gracenote's video platform in some capacity. Still, it should be noted that Apple may be adding support for the platform primarily to help users manage their conventional DVD collection, with the reference to Blu-ray slipping in as a matter of standard legalese.



Despite persistent rumors, Blu-ray support has yet to find its way to the Mac in any capacity due to complicated licensing issues that Apple has seen no interest in tackling given that the format remains in its infancy and has yet to show signs of mainstream adoption, according to comments from Apple chief executive Steve Jobs.

"Blu-ray is a bag of hurt. I don’t mean from the consumer point of view," he said at a media event last October. "It’s great to watch movies, but the licensing is so complex. We’re waiting until things settle down, and waiting until Blu-ray takes off before we burden our customers with the cost of licensing."

Though it's uncommon for Apple to distribute pre-release betas of iTunes broadly, it did so Tuesday alongside the release of the fourth beta of iPhone Software 3.0, which requires the new version of the media cataloging software.

"This is a pre-release version of iTunes 8.2," the company told developers. "You must download and install iTunes 8.2 pre-release in order to activate iPhone OS 3.0 beta 4 on your iPhone or iPod touch."
post #2 of 123
LOL

Sometimes Jobs' cracks me up with his statements. I think Blu-ray is coming but I'd agree that this is likely just rudimentary support for cataloging BD discs.
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post #3 of 123
somewhat off-topic, but not totally...I've never seen a Blu-ray movie played on a computer, but I just can't imagine it being so much better than a standard DVD. So many people complain about Apple's lack of Blu-ray support (esp in their notebooks). However, people who have Blu-ray right now are clearly videophiles who probably don't do the majority of their movie-watching on computers. So then, what's the big deal? I wouldn't be surprised if Apple NEVER adopts blu-ray as a standard feature. By the time it becomes mainstream enough, DVD sales will be dropping off considerably more than they already are. Online distribution is clearly the future.
post #4 of 123
Gimme an iMac with a blu-ray already.
post #5 of 123
If BR does comes out for the Mac Mini, it would totally rock!

And it'll make the decision to buy an xbox 360 or ps3 easier this Christmas.
post #6 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTL215 View Post

somewhat off-topic, but not totally...I've never seen a Blu-ray movie played on a computer, but I just can't imagine it being so much better than a standard DVD. So many people complain about Apple's lack of Blu-ray support (esp in their notebooks). However, people who have Blu-ray right now are clearly videophiles who probably don't do the majority of their movie-watching on computers. So then, what's the big deal? I wouldn't be surprised if Apple NEVER adopts blu-ray as a standard feature. By the time it becomes mainstream enough, DVD sales will be dropping off considerably more than they already are. Online distribution is clearly the future.

Future for a select few maybe. optical discs will be around for awhile. Blu-ray is having a banner year finally- even in a recession. Even Pixar's Bug's Life comes out next month.
post #7 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_onxo View Post

If BR does comes out for the Mac Mini, it would totally rock!

And it'll make the decision to buy an xbox 360 or ps3 easier this Christmas.

If it were available now and I certainly would buy.
post #8 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

LOL

Sometimes Jobs' cracks me up with his statements. I think Blu-ray is coming but I'd agree that this is likely just rudimentary support for cataloging BD discs.

Remember when he said he replaced his home stereo system with iPod Hifis!!!!
post #9 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTL215 View Post

somewhat off-topic, but not totally...I've never seen a Blu-ray movie played on a computer, but I just can't imagine it being so much better than a standard DVD. So many people complain about Apple's lack of Blu-ray support (esp in their notebooks). However, people who have Blu-ray right now are clearly videophiles who probably don't do the majority of their movie-watching on computers. So then, what's the big deal? I wouldn't be surprised if Apple NEVER adopts blu-ray as a standard feature. By the time it becomes mainstream enough, DVD sales will be dropping off considerably more than they already are. Online distribution is clearly the future.

Exactly

I have a 32" HDTV and I can see the difference between a good DVD and a HD version of the movie but it's not really that easy.

I own The Unforgiven 2-disc DVD and the HD DVD version and the difference is pretty small.

I have a hard time thinking that it's even a good idea to have an Blue Laser optical drive playing movies on a laptop that has a 17" screen at best.

720p digital files are pretty damn good for a desktop/laptop screen IMO. Though I would like to see Blu-ray for recording capability.
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post #10 of 123
Does this mean that a future iTunes might allow me to import my DVD collection for play on my apple tv?
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post #11 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_onxo View Post

If BR does comes out for the Mac Mini, it would totally rock!

And it'll make the decision to buy an xbox 360 or ps3 easier this Christmas.

i'm hoping for a significant update to AppleTV (bigger HDD and DVR capabilities, specifically). I've already begun digitizing my DVDs (Handbrake/VisualHub/MacTheRipper). Best case scenario is they update it by Christmas, but who knows...
post #12 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTL215 View Post

somewhat off-topic, but not totally...I've never seen a Blu-ray movie played on a computer, but I just can't imagine it being so much better than a standard DVD.

Go to www.apple.com/trailers/ and run a SD and 1080 HD movie trailer, there is a clear difference.

And there is no difference in resolution your eyes can absorb whether you sit close to a small but high-resolution display or further away from a larger but lesser-dpi screen. Resolution of the human eye is measured in fractions of a degree (assuming you eyes can focus correctly).
post #13 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post

Does this mean that a future iTunes might allow me to import my DVD collection for play on my apple tv?

Hopefully! That'd obviously be easier than 3rd party software.
post #14 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Remember when he said he replaced his home stereo system with iPod Hifis!!!!

Yeah, I still don't know what Jobs was thinking.

I'm not sure anyone believed him when he said this to begin with =P

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post #15 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTL215 View Post

somewhat off-topic, but not totally...I've never seen a Blu-ray movie played on a computer, but I just can't imagine it being so much better than a standard DVD. So many people complain about Apple's lack of Blu-ray support (esp in their notebooks). However, people who have Blu-ray right now are clearly videophiles who probably don't do the majority of their movie-watching on computers. So then, what's the big deal? I wouldn't be surprised if Apple NEVER adopts blu-ray as a standard feature. By the time it becomes mainstream enough, DVD sales will be dropping off considerably more than they already are. Online distribution is clearly the future.

I pretty much agree and have little interest in Blu-ray. Totally satisfied with DVD quality. I'd be more interested in Blu-ray if they all came with an iTunes ready copy of the movie.

Is that (an iTunes copy of the movie) what this is really about? Or do people want to catalog their disks in iTunes ala Delicious Library? Or what?
post #16 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

I have a hard time thinking that it's even a good idea to have an Blue Laser optical drive playing movies on a laptop that has a 17" screen at best.

Why? What is the difference to looking at 2000 horizontal pixels from one feet or from five feet away? Sure, you need a display that can display 2000 pixels, but the 24" desktops and the 17" laptops get close with 1920 pixels.
post #17 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post

Does this mean that a future iTunes might allow me to import my DVD collection for play on my apple tv?

Now why would you want to do that? A good Blu-Ray player will do a nice upconversion of your DVD, making it look better than it does. Your Apple TV will not.
post #18 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post

Does this mean that a future iTunes might allow me to import my DVD collection for play on my apple tv?

Where's Susan Boyle to sing- "I Dreamed a dream...."
post #19 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTL215 View Post

Hopefully! That'd obviously be easier than 3rd party software.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post

Does this mean that a future iTunes might allow me to import my DVD collection for play on my apple tv?

Don't I wish... but not likely - at least anytime soon i think. There's still too much legal uncertainty with the encryption on a dvd.
post #20 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdesir View Post

Go to www.apple.com/trailers/ and run a SD and 1080 HD movie trailer, there is a clear difference.

Good example. Don't know why I never thought of that. To me though, it's not about the extra resolution being necessary on my computer screen, but simply having compatibility with the movies I purchase/rent. What good is a computer that can play DVDs all of the movies I've bought/rented for the past year are Blu-Ray discs?
post #21 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

Now why would you want to do that? A good Blu-Ray player will do a nice upconversion of your DVD, making it look better than it does. Your Apple TV will not.

saarek was talking about using iTunes as a DVD ripping software, presumable so you can (A) archive your collection, and (B) stream your movies to your TV with something like AppleTV. Currently, you need third-party software to rip DVDs.
post #22 of 123
You all are missing the point. Blu ray discs offer up to 50GB of storage, versus the 4-5GB of a standard, single sided DVD.

Put a Super Duper Drive that can write Blu ray discs and you made archiving and storage a lot easier.

It's not just about watching movies. If it were, you can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080i on a screen smaller than 30 inches.
post #23 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Remember when he said he replaced his home stereo system with iPod Hifis!!!!

How about providing a source on this claim? Or did you just make it up?

The truth is that Apple (unofficially) pushed the iPod Hi-Fi as "a replacement for your home Stereo" which it certainly could be at the time since the audio quality was equal or better than the average home stereo. Steve Jobs once said about it that "Its really the home stereo reinvented ..." which kind of indicates the same thing. I can't find any info however, that he personally replaced his home equipment with it.

On the other hand, what if he did? Other than a few complaints from audiophiles (and what *don't* those guys complain about), there is no indication that the iPod Hi-Fi was of any worse quality than the average home stereo system, in fact it was a lot better than most.

The central claim being made by Apple at this time was simply that since your music was no longer on your CD's and was instead on your iPod and in iTunes, that having devices around the house to plug your iPod into (or in today's world that stream music from your iPod or iTunes library), was the "home stereo of future." Seems to me that all that is accurate and insightful stuff really.
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post #24 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

Now why would you want to do that? A good Blu-Ray player will do a nice upconversion of your DVD, making it look better than it does. Your Apple TV will not.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy HD DVD movies, but it would be nice to have a couple of hundred movies on my Apple TV to just sit down and relax.
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post #25 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTL215 View Post

saarek was talking about using iTunes as a DVD ripping software, presumable so you can (A) archive your collection, and (B) stream your movies to your TV with something like AppleTV. Currently, you need third-party software to rip DVDs.

I understand, but like I said why would you want to do that? You're losing quality once by re-encoding the video, and again by playing it from the Apple TV which won't upconvert the image like a good DVD player or Blu-Ray player would. Is it worth saving yourself the 30 seconds it takes to put the disc in the player when you're going to spend the next 90-120 minutes watching a noticeably lesser-quality picture because of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy HD DVD movies, but it would be nice to have a couple of hundred movies on my Apple TV to just sit down and relax.

How many times do you intend on changing the movie without getting out of your seat?
post #26 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

I understand, but like I said why would you want to do that? You're losing quality once by re-encoding the video, and again by playing it from the Apple TV which won't upconvert the image like a good DVD player or Blu-Ray player would. Is it worth saving yourself the 30 seconds it takes to put the disc in the player when you're going to spend the next 90-120 minutes watching a noticeably lesser-quality picture because of it?


How many times do you intend on changing the movie without getting out of your seat?

The main thing is that I find iTunes rentals good enough to view, sure it may not be as clear but it certainly does not destroy the experience.

You may find it is not good enough, but for me the choice of having loads of movies loaded on so that my kids can walk in after school and load their favourite disney etc would be perfect.
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post #27 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post

The main thing is that I find iTunes rentals good enough to view, sure it may not be as clear but it certainly does not destroy the experience.

You may find it is not good enough, but for me the choice of having loads of movies loaded on so that my kids can walk in after school and load their favourite disney etc would be perfect.

Ah yes, children. Now I understand the interest in an all-digital library.
post #28 of 123
What for can I use Gracenote regarding the DVD, BR area?
Will iTunes make a database of all the DVDs I own, so I can make my choice without having to go through all the physical discs?

As far as I know Apple won't be allowed to distribute a software that circumvents the encryption of a DVD, BR disc.
But hasn't Apple struck a deal with Disney that would allow you to rip a iPod usable copy of the movie?
post #29 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdesir View Post

Why? What is the difference to looking at 2000 horizontal pixels from one feet or from five feet away? Sure, you need a display that can display 2000 pixels, but the 24" desktops and the 17" laptops get close with 1920 pixels.

Each resolution jump on today's technology has to be mated for the proper playback equipment. 1080p HD looks best on today's monitors when you sit an appropriate length back which depends on screen size. 24" iMac monitors and laptops are hard justifications for 1080p content unless you want to funnel that data outside the computer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

Good example. Don't know why I never thought of that. To me though, it's not about the extra resolution being necessary on my computer screen, but simply having compatibility with the movies I purchase/rent. What good is a computer that can play DVDs all of the movies I've bought/rented for the past year are Blu-Ray discs?

Which is why Managed Copy dying a silent death only to be replaced by the shitty Digital Copy is a travesty. Efforts were there to deliver content compatibilty and the industry once again choked. Thankfully companies out there make ripping apps


Quote:
Originally Posted by natemurray View Post

You all are missing the point. Blu ray discs offer up to 50GB of storage, versus the 4-5GB of a standard, single sided DVD.

Put a Super Duper Drive that can write Blu ray discs and you made archiving and storage a lot easier.

It's not just about watching movies. If it were, you can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080i on a screen smaller than 30 inches.

Yes Blu-ray to me is a non-starter "bag of hurt" if it's not a recordable device. It started life as a recorder and that's where it's main value is to me.
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post #30 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by natemurray View Post

You all are missing the point. Blu ray discs offer up to 50GB of storage, versus the 4-5GB of a standard, single sided DVD.

Put a Super Duper Drive that can write Blu ray discs and you made archiving and storage a lot easier.

It's not just about watching movies. If it were, you can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080i on a screen smaller than 30 inches.

I thought when CDs came out my storage problems were solved. But now I have tons of CDs taking up space. When DVDs came out I said, "4GB - my storage problems are solved!" But somehow 4GB got filled pretty quickly and now I have piles of those too.

And now Blu-ray. Will I back up my HD home video to it? I doubt it. The only storage I really trust any more is something copied onto two hard drives. 50GB sounds like a lot, but when I go to back stuff up it'll seem more like a limitation.
post #31 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

LOL

Sometimes Jobs' cracks me up with his statements. I think Blu-ray is coming but I'd agree that this is likely just rudimentary support for cataloging BD discs.

That was a pointed barb at the Blu-Ray consortium! I believe I read that Blu-Ray licensing costs were significantly lowered since he made that statement. Maybe it worked!

Blu-Ray hasn't been breaking loose like DVD did. I guess they (Blu-Ray consortium) are trying to kickstart something.
post #32 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

How about providing a source on this claim? Or did you just make it up?

The truth is that Apple (unofficially) pushed the iPod Hi-Fi as "a replacement for your home Stereo" which it certainly could be at the time since the audio quality was equal or better than the average home stereo. Steve Jobs once said about it that "It’s really the home stereo reinvented ..." which kind of indicates the same thing. I can't find any info however, that he personally replaced his home equipment with it.

On the other hand, what if he did? Other than a few complaints from audiophiles (and what *don't* those guys complain about), there is no indication that the iPod Hi-Fi was of any worse quality than the average home stereo system, in fact it was a lot better than most.

The central claim being made by Apple at this time was simply that since your music was no longer on your CD's and was instead on your iPod and in iTunes, that having devices around the house to plug your iPod into (or in today's world that stream music from your iPod or iTunes library), was the "home stereo of future." Seems to me that all that is accurate and insightful stuff really.

You are the most biassed posters on here. The ipod HiFi was on of the worst products ever (a flop if ever there was one) built by Apple. Read the reviews without you Apple colored glasses on. It had a thuddy bass for one thing. Where is it now if it was so great? it was an overpriced piece of junk that doesn't even work with today's iPods.
As far as the quote goes- it's well documented. Look it up yourself.

ammended:
Here lazy:
"During the presentation, Jobs said he was using the Hi-Fi for a month and is going to ditch his expensive high-end audio systems (costing “a lot”) in favor of one of these—“they have phenomenal sound”, “they’re really really good” he says; more on that in the final paragraph of this post, where we’re jotting down a few notes."

UPDATED:
10:38am PT - "I'm an audiophile, and I'm getting rid of my stereo."
http://www.engadget.com/2006/02/28/l...-new-products/

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post #33 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by ulfoaf View Post

That was a pointed barb at the Blu-Ray consortium! I believe I read that Blu-Ray licensing costs were significantly lowered since he made that statement. Maybe it worked!

Blu-Ray hasn't been breaking loose like DVD did. I guess they (Blu-Ray consortium) are trying to kickstart something.

Yes though I was an HD DVD proponent I will openly admit that there is palpable frustration not just from Apple but also from smaller video producers that want to deliver HD content on Blu-ray. The license fee restructure was nice and more work needs to be done so that the needs of the smaller video producer are taken care of.

Though Apple shouldn't be smug about Blu-ray. iTunes is a rousing succes for music but Apple's done bupkiss to help the smaller indie producers who need to give their clients playable HD content and Apple's been suckling from the major distributor teet almost exclusively.
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post #34 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by walshbj View Post

I pretty much agree and have little interest in Blu-ray. Totally satisfied with DVD quality. I'd be more interested in Blu-ray if they all came with an iTunes ready copy of the movie.

Is that (an iTunes copy of the movie) what this is really about? Or do people want to catalog their disks in iTunes ala Delicious Library? Or what?

I have a 22 inch monitor and the difference between a DVD and Blu-ray is quite noticeable. I'm perfectly fine with watching movies on DVD's though. That may change once I pony up the cash and buy an HDTV.

It is sad to see what the movie industry has done to us consumers though. You say you'd be more interested in Blu-ray if it came with an iTunes ready copy, and I agree I would as well. When you get a digital copy of a movie it feels like you have been given something extra, which is the furthest thing from the truth possible. They have just restricted you less. Why can't you just throw your DVD or Blu-ray into your computer and import and tag the movie like you do with music? The only reason they need to give you a digital copy is due to the fact that they prevented you from making your own copy. Why should we be grateful for that. Not only that, movies that come with a digital copy tend to cost more or the digital copy itself is a separate purchase. It's sad that the movie industry has so much control that they can take our money and we feel like we are being given a gift.

I've personally changed out the hard drive in my MBP for a larger one so I could put more movies on it for when I travel. After importing and tagging about 35 dvd's using handbrake and metaX I grew tired of the process and quit. It would be easier if you didn't have to jump around the protection, and if companies weren't sued if they allow dvd importing capabilities. The iTunes notes give me hope, but I'm not holding my breath. DRM does not work and needs to die, it only punishes paying customers.
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post #35 of 123
I think Apple is going to incorporate DVD & BlueRay playback functions into iTunes.
It plays CDs so why not DVDs & BlueRay discs?

Apple wants consumers to think "iTunes" when they think of entertainment...not DVD player or Windows Media Player.
It may also be that iTunes can steam the DVD or BlueRay to an AppleTV.
It will also be nice being able to use the iPhone Remote app to control playback.
post #36 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post

The main thing is that I find iTunes rentals good enough to view, sure it may not be as clear but it certainly does not destroy the experience.

You may find it is not good enough, but for me the choice of having loads of movies loaded on so that my kids can walk in after school and load their favourite disney etc would be perfect.

I have over 100+ educational/edutainment DVDs ripped to my Mac courtesy of my local Public library. When the kids want to watch a video or movie they use the AppleTV and can pick from their library. No DVDs to scratch or the wrong disc in the wrong box. I also don't have to worry about what they are watching since I know what is in their library.
post #37 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Mozzarella View Post

I think Apple is going to incorporate DVD & BlueRay playback functions into iTunes.
It plays CDs so why not DVDs & BlueRay discs?

Apple wants consumers to think "iTunes" when they think of entertainment...not DVD player or Windows Media Player.
It may also be that iTunes can steam the DVD or BlueRay to an AppleTV.
It will also be nice being able to use the iPhone Remote app to control playback.

They will need to improve their movie playback functionality in itunes. I've gone to the next movie when I was only trying to skip to the next scene far too often. I now use front row and never itunes for movie playback.
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post #38 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Though Apple shouldn't be smug about Blu-ray. iTunes is a rousing succes for music but Apple's done bupkiss to help the smaller indie producers who need to give their clients playable HD content and Apple's been suckling from the major distributor teet almost exclusively.

the movie industry is much less willing to give Apple what it wants, after watching them come to rule the music industry. They're treading much more carefully with movies than with music. Apple couldn't care less what is offered on iTunes - in other words, they're more than willing to go DRM-free and provide ripping capabilities. It's the studios who restrict such features. Apple makes a relatively small amount of money from iTunes content....they make their money from iPods, iPhones, Macs, and, hopefully one day, lots of AppleTVs.
post #39 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Mozzarella View Post

I have over 100+ educational/edutainment DVDs ripped to my Mac courtesy of my local Public library. When the kids want to watch a video or movie they use the AppleTV and can pick from their library. No DVDs to scratch or the wrong disc in the wrong box. I also don't have to worry about what they are watching since I know what is in their library.

+1

I'm going to buy and rip some Leapfrog learning library stuff for my son and keep it simple so he can find them whenever he wants. Frankly the industry wanting everything on a disc that's locked down is a noble effort to impede natural evolution and control DRM but is quickly growing out of vogue in what is becoming a very well connected global scheme.
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post #40 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

You are the most biassed poster on here. The ipod HiFi was on of the worst products ever built by Apple. Read the reviews without you Apple colored glasses on. It had a thuddy bass. Where is it now if it was so great? it was an overpriced piece of junk that doesn't even work with today's iPods.
As far as the quote goes- it's well documented. Look it up yourself.

ammended:
Here lazy bones:
"During the presentation, Jobs said he was using the Hi-Fi for a month and is going to ditch his expensive high-end audio systems (costing a lot) in favor of one of thesethey have phenomenal sound, theyre really really good he says; more on that in the final paragraph of this post, where were jotting down a few notes."

I don't know why I'm surprised at this angry petulant response, but thanks for the reference anyway.

If you have the time to go back and actually read what I said, you will find that I never said the iPod Hi-Fi was "great" or anything of the sort. What I said was the quality of sound it produced was equal to, or better than, the typical home stereo of the time, which it most certainly was.

Products fail for many reasons and the iPod Hi-Fi had many things wrong with it from a design point of view. However, the fact that the audio quality was what I said it was, and that Apple and Jobs' marketing position (that this device could "replace your home stereo"), were reasonable and accurate statements are unassailably, ... true.
In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
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In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
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