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Apple says Psystar holding back info in Mac clone legal case - Page 3

post #81 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

Apple can develop and market any product they want. What they should not be able to do, is tell people what they can do with those Apple products after purchase.

You're talking individual consumers, this Psystar case is about a business, which is different.

In the case of OS X, they have been very hands-off the individual hobbyists and extended that to the hobbyist community too, and I think this is a good decision. However, I think it's perfectly legit to go after businesses, they're not doing it for themselves, they were redistributing modified copyrighted code for profit.
post #82 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

That is why Psystar needs to win, so that consumers actually have the rights to things that they paid for.

Psystar is NOT A CONSUMER.
Is Apple going after consumers?

Quote:
the bigger picture is consumers actually owning things they paid for, instead of corporations playing this ridiculous "it's just a license" game

Fine. I'm just about to release a film based on that book that you wrote. You won't mind will you, 'cos I own the book?

You wouldn't recognize a "bigger picture" if it fell on your head.
post #83 of 158
I am in no way in favor of Psystar - I think they're a bunch of crooks selling knockoffs. However I don't understand why they have to give all their intimate financial details out. How is that relevant to the question of copyright over-extension?
post #84 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

I am in no way in favor of Psystar - I think they're a bunch of crooks selling knockoffs. However I don't understand why they have to give all their intimate financial details out. How is that relevant to the question of copyright over-extension?

I wondered that, too. Perhaps the John Doe's in the lawsuit are suspected as being financial backers of Psystar, which would make them culpable or perhaps Apple wants to know how much many they have made off Apple's IP.
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post #85 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

Fine. I'm just about to release a film based on that book that you wrote. You won't mind will you, 'cos I own the book?


That's not what's happening. This constant need for people to lie about what Psystar is doing does nothing to help your case.

Psystar is buying a legal retail product, then buying a bunch more retail products and selling them together. Psystar's challenge here is the validity of the EULA claiming to restrict resale, it's not a counterfeiting case.

The closest thing to a book analogy would be if they bought the book, and then also bought some some other books, and also bought a nice little slip case for them, put the books in that case and resold the whole lot.

Even in your book/movie analogy, to even come close to what Psystar is doing you'd have to buy and resell a retail copy of my book for every ticket or DVD you distribute. I'll more more money from that venture than you will.
post #86 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

Apple can develop and market any product they want. What they should not be able to do, is tell people what they can do with those Apple products after purchase. You want to jailbreak your iPhone? That is none of Apple's business. You buy OS X, but want to try to install it on a Super Nintendo? Dumb thing to try, but still your own right as a consumer who paid for the product to do so. None of Apple's business. That is why Psystar needs to win, so that consumers actually have the rights to things that they paid for. It's the Apple vs the clones argument that is short-sighted, the bigger picture is consumers actually owning things they paid for, instead of corporations playing this ridiculous "it's just a license" game.

The analogy to consumer rights is not meaningful. Apple has never gone after anyone for building a hackintosh for their own use, or for jailbreaking their iPhone. Pystar is a business, not a consumer. Psystar is reselling OSX, and effectively selling Macintosh computers. They are trading on Apple's copyrights and trademarks, which they have no right to do. This is a huge difference.

EDIT: Should have read the trailing posts before writing this -- I can see this point has been made.
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post #87 of 158
Quote:
OSX 10.5 w/ iLife & iWork
2.83GHz C2Q Q9550
8GB DDR2-800
1TB HDD
20x DVD burner
9800GT 512mb
802.11n
Keyboard/Mouse
Three year warranty on parts and support
Add in a $300 monitor from newegg and the final price is 2032.98.

Comparatively from Apple:
2.66 Quad Xeon
3GB 1066DDR3
1TB HDD (same as above, 7200 rpm SATA)
nvidia Gt 120 512mb
keyboard/mouse
802.11n
iWork 09
No monitor mind you, all for 2698.00

The 2.66 Nehalem Xeon is way faster than the Q9550.

Anyway, you can build a PC way cheaper than the Psystar and just Hackintosh it.

Psystar and EFI-X are so lame
post #88 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

That's not what's happening. This constant need for people to lie about what Psystar is doing does nothing to help your case.

It's not MY case, it's Apple's case. No-one is trying to lie to you. You just seem to be fooling yourself.

As a CONSUMER do you have the right to buy one copy of Msoft's Vista Ultimate Edition... and install it on 20 computers? Do you have the right to pretend to be a student and buy the Ed version of Office and then use it for your professional work? Companies can control who they sell certain products to... and how certain products can be used. There are always ways around these restrictions but the company then has the right to ask a court to stop you. " You think licensing your products is just a "game"? Tell that to the judge.


Quote:
Even in your book/movie analogy, to even come close to what Psystar is doing you'd have to buy and resell a retail copy of my book for every ticket or DVD you distribute. I'll more more money from that venture than you will.

You really don't get it do you? I thought If I said it was "your" book that you might see what was unjust about the situation. Sure... you want me to give copies of your book with my movie... no problem. Unfortunately your book didn't do so well. I can pick them up real cheap. But guess what? My movie is going great guns. It's turned into a mega global hit. I'm already shooting the sequel.

So you sold a few more cheap books. Big deal. Hollywood ain't gonna knock on your door. I bought YOUR book. I used YOUR intellectual property to create a product that people actually wanted and I now have more money than God. You think that's fair because I paid for your measly book?

Did I mention that I now also get to sleep with Scarlett Johansson?
post #89 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

Did I mention that I now also get to sleep with Scarlett Johansson?

Her husband may have a problem with that.
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post #90 of 158
Hey its Hollywood her husband may may want to join in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Her husband may have a problem with that.
post #91 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Hey its Hollywood her husband may may want to join in.

To each their own. You can have Van Wilder, but I'll take Scarlett and for the 3rd party let's go with Jessica Alba.
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post #92 of 158
Not that I want to participate in any of it, I'm just pointing out that in Hollywood the moral compass swings in a very different direction from what's considered the social norm.

I would guess at this point Ryan Reynolds does not want to share Johansson. Give it a couple of years and the story will likely be different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

To each their own. You can have Van Wilder, but I'll take Scarlett and for the 3rd party let's go with Jessica Alba.
post #93 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

To each their own. You can have Van Wilder, but I'll take Scarlett and for the 3rd party let's go with Jessica Alba.

Actually Jess was a wee bit clingy but we are still good friends.


post #94 of 158
Not the worst problem to have, .

Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

Actually Jess was a wee bit clingy but we are still good friends.
post #95 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

It's not MY case, it's Apple's case. No-one is trying to lie to you. You just seem to be fooling yourself.

You think licensing your products is just a "game"? Tell that to the judge.

Licensing is more than just a game, it's bullshit. I bought it, I own it, it is mine. You cannot tell me what I can do with it after I've paid you for it.

Flour is made from wheat that is grown from patented genetically modified grains. I can still make anything I want from that flour, and Monsanto can't say shit.

People ARE telling it to the judges. Psystar is right now, and so are EFF regarding iPhone jailbreaking.


Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

You really don't get it do you? I thought If I said it was "your" book that you might see what was unjust about the situation. Sure... you want me to give copies of your book with my movie... no problem. Unfortunately your book didn't do so well. I can pick them up real cheap. But guess what? My movie is going great guns. It's turned into a mega global hit. I'm already shooting the sequel.

So you sold a few more cheap books. Big deal. Hollywood ain't gonna knock on your door. I bought YOUR book. I used YOUR intellectual property to create a product that people actually wanted and I now have more money than God. You think that's fair because I paid for your measly book?


If the movie is hot, the book is hot too, it always is. That means I'll not only sell one with every ticket you sell, but I'll sell even more of them from other sources, and collect a hefty advance for further books. Not only that, but since I wrote the book for the hit movie, other movie studios are now backing up truckloads of money to get me to write their movies. No matter how you slice it, I make more than you do under your scenario.
post #96 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloggerblog View Post

...BTW: Mr.Pedraza reminds me of Mr.Gates during his appearance in court and Mr.Gonzales, both of these guys couldn't seem to remember or understand a thing, so they claimed. The tactic seemed to have served them very well.

This is a big surprise? It is the sign of a person who requires help, due to problems they are having with their mental faculties. One merely has to look at what their ruling over a company has produced. It's not a very good thing and can be considered criminal.

Just look at the dysfunctional companies these guys run, and that should prove these gentlemen need help. And so do the people under them who did not see the problem and stop them. Feel sorry for them.
post #97 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

Licensing is more than just a game, it's bullshit. I bought it, I own it, it is mine. You cannot tell me what I can do with it after I've paid you for it.

Flour is made from wheat that is grown from patented genetically modified grains. I can still make anything I want from that flour, and Monsanto can't say shit.

People ARE telling it to the judges. Psystar is right now, and so are EFF regarding iPhone jailbreaking.

You idea of capitalism, ownership and IP rights are so warped. Despite the numerous times people in the know have attempted to school you on such basic things you still think that a company has the right to do what Psystar is doing. I bet you agree with agree with China's illegal cloning operations, too.
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post #98 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

If the movie is hot, the book is hot too, it always is. That means I'll not only sell one with every ticket you sell, but I'll sell even more of them from other sources, and collect a hefty advance for further books. Not only that, but since I wrote the book for the hit movie, other movie studios are now backing up truckloads of money to get me to write their movies. No matter how you slice it, I make more than you do under your scenario.

You mate are in denial!
DO YOU STILL NOT GET IT?

In my fantasy movie scenario..... I TOOK YOUR STUFF!

I took your characters and your badly written plot and your rubbish dialogue and made a blockbuster movie out of them. You could have made millions out of the film rights but it's too late. I've made the film! Yes indeed publishers are salivating over the next book. Unfortunately, for you, they prefer my script to your book so I will be writing it.

It's all OK though, cos I read on an internet forum that "I bought it, I own it, it is mine".


Did I mention that I am now seeing Keira Knightley?
post #99 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post


In my fantasy movie scenario..... I TOOK YOUR STUFF!

You didn't take anything, you bought it.

Psystar has not taken anything, They BOUGHT copies of OS X, then resold them along with a box of computer parts. They are not re-engineering any proprietary Apple hardware, or counterfeiting anything, they are simply reselling off the shelf products.

Again, you still seem to think that reselling something you bought is the same thing as counterfeiting.
post #100 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

Psystar has not taken anything, They BOUGHT copies of OS X, then resold them along with a box of computer parts. They are not re-engineering any proprietary Apple hardware, or counterfeiting anything, they are simply reselling off the shelf products.

How many copies of Mac OS X does the Psystar customer get when he receives his illegal Mac clone?

If you say one, then you are not thinking, per your MO. If you say two, then you are correct, but how do you explain the transference from the DVD to the harddrive if Psystar is not doing anything illegal. I can't legally make copies of Office or Photoshop or DVD movies and distribute them at will for a fee so why do you think Psystar should be able to break this law and get away with it? Apple owns the rights to the contents of that DVD just like MGM owns the rights to the contents of their movies. I can't start a business where I stick movies onto another DVD or a bunch of movies on harddrives and then sell them so why do you think Psystar should be allowed to break this law?
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post #101 of 158
Why are you being such a bonehead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

You didn't take anything, you bought it.

Did you sell me the movie rights to your book?
Or did I just take them?
Did you sell me the rights to make and sell little plastic characters from your book?
Or did I just take them?

Quote:
Again, you still seem to think that reselling something you bought is the same thing as counterfeiting.

You don't appear to even try and understand what people here are trying to tell you?
post #102 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

You don't appear to even try and understand what people here are trying to tell you?

I fully understand that you are the ones who are confused as to what is actually happening here.

Buying something, and reselling it. THAT is what Psystar is doing. They are not making an entirely new product and claiming that it's a real Mac. Those are not the same thing.
post #103 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

I fully understand that you are the ones who are confused as to what is actually happening here.

Buying something, and reselling it. THAT is what Psystar is doing. They are not making an entirely new product and claiming that it's a real Mac. Those are not the same thing.

No, you don't.

No, they aren't.
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post #104 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

I fully understand that you are the ones who are confused as to what is actually happening here.

If you think we are wrong then explain why, answer some of the points put to you and stop just throwing your rattle out of the pram.

PS. Find out the differences between "copyright" and "counterfeit".
post #105 of 158
I think apple is making this public for a very good reason, they are letting the people who maybe behind backing this company they better pull their support out since Apple is going to find out where they are getting their money.

Apple does not need them to tell them what they make and their cost structure, they are a US company, so they do file a tax return and they could get copies of those and know almost what they make and the COGS and other expenses. Plus if Apple finds out money is being funnel in from elsewhere you know the IRS would be interested in that.

I think this is tactic that Apple is using to smoke out anyone who is trying to mess with Apples business model. You can be almost guaranty that someone is behind them they cut their support verse being found out.
post #106 of 158
I don't think Apple had to make their filings public, since they are part of the court record. But clearly they are making a very public show of it, if only to scare off anyone else who might be tempted to try selling Mac clones. I suspect that too much is being made of the possible "power behind" Psystar. This issue first came up months back, when the Apple lawsuit was revealed to include numerous "John Doe" defendants. This resulted in a lot of speculation over who they might be -- but in reality, naming John Doe defendants is standard procedure in litigation, so that alone doesn't mean much.
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post #107 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

I fully understand that you are the ones who are confused as to what is actually happening here.

Buying something, and reselling it. THAT is what Psystar is doing. They are not making an entirely new product and claiming that it's a real Mac. Those are not the same thing.

bsenka, it's not worth the fight. I, like you, attempted logical arguments and examples, all of which were unsuccessful at penetrating the thick skulls of the stubborn and close-minded. Some people are just incapable of entertaining the idea that they might, in fact, be wrong.

-Clive
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post #108 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post

bsenka, it's not worth the fight. I, like you, attempted logical arguments and examples, all of which were unsuccessful at penetrating the thick skulls of the stubborn and close-minded. Some people are just incapable of entertaining the idea that they might, in fact, be wrong.

-Clive

The only closed minded people here are you two. Neither have addressed questions brought to you about their copying of the software, altering the code and their lack of a reseller's license.
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post #109 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The only closed minded people here are you two. Neither have addressed questions brought to you about their copying of the software, altering the code and their lack of a reseller's license.

The other major issue which seems to be poorly understood is that Psystar is deliberately trading on Apple's intellectual property by selling Mac clones. They really got themselves in deep on this aspect of their business by claiming in their failed antitrust suit that Apple was illegally monopolizing the "Macintosh compatible computer market." No such market exists; in fact Psystar is attempting to fabricate one, and the only way they can do that is to trade on Apple's intellectual property.
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post #110 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post

bsenka, it's not worth the fight. I, like you, attempted logical arguments and examples, all of which were unsuccessful at penetrating the thick skulls of the stubborn and close-minded. Some people are just incapable of entertaining the idea that they might, in fact, be wrong.

That's an easy accusation to throw, but it's hard to test. How does anyone else know whether you're capable of entertaining the idea that you might, in fact be wrong? How do you know that it isn't all of us that are wrong? Maybe everyone here is right, regardless of the position.

Right and wrong in this case are loaded terms because you have to have a particular perspective and agenda in which to judge that. And the judgment arises from that perspective and agenda.
post #111 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post

bsenka, it's not worth the fight. I, like you, attempted logical arguments and examples,

With arguments like: The Mac is a monopoly. Apple is being anti-competitive. Apple is illegally tying products.


Quote:
all of which were unsuccessful at penetrating the thick skulls of the stubborn and close-minded.

Or: People who may have considered your arguments and found them without merit.

Quote:
Some people are just incapable of entertaining the idea that they might, in fact, be wrong.

Just like the judge in this case?
post #112 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

Or: People who may have considered your arguments and found them without merit.

They've been responded to with reasons why their argument is poor and posted questions that they've refused to address.
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post #113 of 158
In my experience, you'll never find a more powerful rationale for anything than wishful thinking.
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post #114 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

Licensing is more than just a game, it's bullshit. I bought it, I own it, it is mine. You cannot tell me what I can do with it after I've paid you for it.

Um, yes I/we/anyone can. Licensing is not that conceptually different from a lease. We lease cars, we lease living quarters, we lease computer hardware, we lease tools, etc. ...

And every one of those comes with a list of restrictions, which the consumer/leasee explicitly agree to when money changes hands. A license is just a form of periodic, semi-perpetual or perpetual lease. Nothing changes just because the thing being paid for is information.
.
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post #115 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

In my experience, you'll never find a more powerful rationale for anything than wishful thinking.

Unbelievable!

In all my frustrated conversations with the Pro Psystarers/iPhone unlockers/X-Maccers/Air-dumpers/Macs for a buck-ers etc etc....

... you have summed it up in just a couple of words. Bastard!
post #116 of 158
Nice conspiracy nonsense but really Microsoft are not behind it, the end result might be Apple being forced to sell OSX as software and compete with Microsoft, not a situation that Remond wants.
HP, Dell etc, also have no interest, If Apple starts selling OSX to OEMs at any stage financing Psystar is not a good way to win a contract from Apple.

It really seems like the lack of financial information is no mystery, Apple wins and when damages get awarded Psystar declares themselves bankrupt with Psystar now mysteriously valued at arouns the damages claim, Psystar shuts down and its owners walk away under chapter 12.
Why is that a mystery ? the more financial information they give that shows profits of any kind just juice up the amount of money Apple can claim along with a cease & desist.

But yeah the conspiracy is way more funny......
post #117 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiro View Post

Um, yes I/we/anyone can. Licensing is not that conceptually different from a lease. We lease cars, we lease living quarters, we lease computer hardware, we lease tools, etc. ...

And every one of those comes with a list of restrictions, which the consumer/leasee explicitly agree to when money changes hands. A license is just a form of periodic, semi-perpetual or perpetual lease. Nothing changes just because the thing being paid for is information.

Yes Hiro thats a lease do you understand the difference between a software licence and lease ? every 3 years a leased item gets upgraded for free, leased items break and they go back for repair, if I buy software then I own it, I do what I want with it, Why are you defending corporations trying to get away with this shit, you'll be buying air to breath next, nope just leasing it really......iDiot
post #118 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

How many copies of Mac OS X does the Psystar customer get when he receives his illegal Mac clone?

If you say one, then you are not thinking, per your MO. If you say two, then you are correct, but how do you explain the transference from the DVD to the harddrive if Psystar is not doing anything illegal. I can't legally make copies of Office or Photoshop or DVD movies and distribute them at will for a fee so why do you think Psystar should be able to break this law and get away with it? Apple owns the rights to the contents of that DVD just like MGM owns the rights to the contents of their movies. I can't start a business where I stick movies onto another DVD or a bunch of movies on harddrives and then sell them so why do you think Psystar should be allowed to break this law?


Hmmm..Illegal you say? So you are the judge, jury and prosecutor who has the final say in all of this and you have handed down the ruling that they are in fact Illegal! Done deal..Ha!
Buying a Psystar OSX clone is NOT illegal until it is ruled so by a court of law, and not a court of hacky opinion. Anyone can still purchase a Psystar OSX clone right now because of the fact that are still for sale... legally. Now you, and Apple have every right to legally dispute the selling of OSX clones by Psystar, but until there is an some kind of a court injunction, or final ruling to cease and desist, it is perfectly legal to go out and buy one - without any threat of prosecution - except of course being pilloried by the faithful MacTologist (largely AAPL holders) in these forums.

It must be absolutely galling to you diehard Apple folks that these Psystar OSX Clones are still legally sold - and for so long now. How dispiriting it must be for you all to have suffer- for what must seem like an eternity - this uppity little dilettante company in Florida continuing to rub your faces in the fact that they are still selling OSX compatible clones - even after the big, bad A threatens them with eternal damnation. The Hutzpa of it all! Don't they know who they are sc*wing with for crying out loud?

Apple may ( most likely), end up putting that snarky, heretical company out of it's misery someday soon - but until that day - OSX clones are LEGALLY available:

http://www.psystar.com/index.php?&op...tpage&Itemid=1

Oh the horror!
post #119 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

That's an easy accusation to throw, but it's hard to test. How does anyone else know whether you're capable of entertaining the idea that you might, in fact be wrong?

I've admitted wrong on these boards in the past. There's no reason I shouldn't be willing to do it again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The only closed minded people here are you two. Neither have addressed questions brought to you about their copying of the software, altering the code and their lack of a reseller's license.

The reseller's license is the only thing of which I won't argue on Psystar's behalf. They don't have one. Does it matter? I'm not sure. There are hundreds of career power-sellers on eBay who get by without them, despite frequently reselling copyrighted work. I also don't understand this either. Regardless, I think it's the least important of the issues at stake here, so let's move on to something more substantial.

I can't speak for Psystar's method, but I know there exist install methods that require no "hacking" of OS X code. With the proper bootloader, OS X install disks will run natively on certain third-party hardware.

Regarding the copying of their software, that is the purpose of the install DVD. The DVD itself is not the copyrighted work, the OS is. When one buys that DVD, they are buying the right to install and use that code. The terms of the EULA attempt to bind that use to "Apple-labeled" hardware. This link is what is contested, as it's akin to saying that you can buy this $15 reproduction Monet painting, but you can only display it in a $150 "Monet-brand" frame.

Psystar is purchasing reproductions, putting them in their own frame and reselling the bundle. The copyrighted work is still intact (depending on the install method), the copyright-holder is getting paid for every reproduction purchased. The only thing that's different is the frame, which isn't copyrighted anyway, so that shouldn't matter, should it?

So what is this dispute really about? Installing one legally-purchased software DVD on one computer? No, it's Apple's overreaching EULA, which attempts to force end-users into buying a frame from Apple even though the reproduction is a legally-purchased, self-standing work.

This is not about Apple protecting its IP at all... It's about protecting its extra dollar.

-Clive
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post #120 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevielee View Post

this uppity little dilettante company in Florida continuing to rub your faces in the fact that they are still selling OSX compatible clones

dilettante: a person who cultivates an area of interest, such as the arts, without real commitment or knowledge.

Perfect!
Please don't be insane.
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Please don't be insane.
Reply
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