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post #41 of 119
5/16/09 at 10:32pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajectory View Post

The truth is sometimes hard to hear.

My perception is based on the years I spent as a Catholic and what I see happening all around me in the name of "religion" or "Christianity."

I would grant you that it is very true that not all that is done in the name of "Christianity" is correct, valid or containing integrity.

I have seen quite a few examples of things which raise flags to me with so-called ministries.

This is why it is important to stick to God's word as well as to be careful as to guard against those who invoke His Namesake but yet in their practices push - promote ill deeds / deceptions which seem to serve other motivations but in fact are anything but Godly or Christlike.

His sheep know his voice.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #42 of 119
5/17/09 at 12:23am
My framework:

-God doesn't exist.

-Morality is a concept defined by instinct and culture -- selective pressure on our social framework gives us a society that is at once not terribly nice but also not filled with sociopaths.

-Each person should have their own self-realized and self-actuated moral compass. If this means one is lead to believe that morality stems from a quantum mechanical cat in a box with a cyanide caplet then so be it.

-Religion has been used to abuse others to an extent that far outweighs its benefits.

-A world without religion would be less interesting.

-A world in which people who naturally have the drive to seek something from religion, but cannot because religion doesn't exist would be a horrible bare knuckle world.

-Religion in essence fills the dark void that some (most? all?) of its adherents would otherwise feel.

-This is why religion is used most effectively for what can be termed dark purposes.

-Human beings haven't developed in a world in which fear of the unknown doesn't exist.

-This unknown has always been filled by deities since the first human decided to step from the protective environment of his family.

And finally, Fellows reveals this in his statement that if we all knew god we wouldn't ask questions -- he understands that scientists ask questions to partially fill the unknown, yet he doesn't understand why they do not accept a single unified answer, nor will he ever.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #43 of 119
5/17/09 at 1:14pm
The bible is completely immoral.
Genocide is OK as long as Jews led by Moses do it.
Cooperation is not OK if people want to build something big.
Jesus had no youth but turned out an idiot anyways.
People who let other folks use their stable (and food storage) do not deserve to have a chapter in "gods word."
Why does god need so many ghost writers? Which is the chapter that says God xx/xx?
If god doesn't like you, he'll send you a priest or was it a plague?
I am truly happy that god forgot all the things he is capable of.
In nome di padre, spiritus sanctus ... bla.
Why is Rome still a super power who most of the world pays taxes to? The bible.
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post #44 of 119
5/17/09 at 2:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

My framework:

-God doesn't exist.

-Morality is a concept defined by instinct and culture -- selective pressure on our social framework gives us a society that is at once not terribly nice but also not filled with sociopaths.

-Each person should have their own self-realized and self-actuated moral compass. If this means one is lead to believe that morality stems from a quantum mechanical cat in a box with a cyanide caplet then so be it.

-Religion has been used to abuse others to an extent that far outweighs its benefits.

-A world without religion would be less interesting.

-A world in which people who naturally have the drive to seek something from religion, but cannot because religion doesn't exist would be a horrible bare knuckle world.

-Religion in essence fills the dark void that some (most? all?) of its adherents would otherwise feel.

-This is why religion is used most effectively for what can be termed dark purposes.

-Human beings haven't developed in a world in which fear of the unknown doesn't exist.

-This unknown has always been filled by deities since the first human decided to step from the protective environment of his family.

And finally, Fellows reveals this in his statement that if we all knew god we wouldn't ask questions -- he understands that scientists ask questions to partially fill the unknown, yet he doesn't understand why they do not accept a single unified answer, nor will he ever.

Well put, hardee.
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post #45 of 119
5/17/09 at 5:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

So I decided to scan over a few of the top threads here in this forum and it had me thinking?

Are any of you all here Christ followers / Christians?

If so what are your thoughts of God's provision in your life?

If not I invite you to consider things other than issues of immigration, liberals vs/ conservatives.

What is important to you in your life?

List your top 5 priorities in life be you a Christ follower or not.

Fellows

I am a Christian. I'd like to share with you what are referred to as the "Articles of Faith" in my church:
  • 1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
  • 2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adams transgression.
  • 3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
  • 4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
  • 5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
  • 6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
  • 7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
  • 8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
  • 9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
  • 10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
  • 11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
  • 12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
  • 13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of PaulWe believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

I have had many very real, sacred, life-altering experiences--many of them while I was serving as a missionary in Brazil for 2 years. These experiences have affirmed to me the following things (including but not limited to): the existence of God, the divinity and mission of his son Jesus Christ, the fact that the true church of Jesus Christ has been restored to the earth, that God knows and loves each of us and wants us to be happy, and that by following the example and teachings of Christ we can find true and lasting happiness in this life and in the life to come.

The 5 top priorities in my life are:
  • Family
  • Faith
  • Freedom
  • Finances (career)
  • Friends

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #46 of 119
5/17/09 at 8:03pm
Fucking Hell.

Tongues?

Fucking Hell.
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post #47 of 119
5/17/09 at 8:27pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

My framework:

-Religion has been used to abuse others to an extent that far outweighs its benefits.

I would say that mankind is sinful and this leads to hurting both ourselves and others.

You mention religion but in fact I am not so much even talking about "religion" rather more about a relationship with God.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #48 of 119
5/17/09 at 9:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

Fucking Hell.

Tongues?

Fucking Hell.

Yes, tongues. As in speaking different languages or being able to communicate or connect with people who speak different languages.

You'll also notice that later down the list it refers to "interpretation of tongues". In this context, tongues = languages.

I learned to read, write, and speak fluent Portuguese as a missionary in Brazil with only 2 months formal training as a foundation. I'm sure that part of it was due to my total immersion in the culture and personal study habits, but I also personally feel that I received divine assistance which helped me learn the language quickly and learn it well.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #49 of 119
5/17/09 at 9:24pm
Bullshit.
In the context you put it, it couldn't mean anything else but "speaking in tongues" as in the odd religious practice.

Why would anyone characterize a knowledge, understanding another language as "gift of the tongues" followed by prophecy etc.
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post #50 of 119
5/17/09 at 9:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

Bullshit.
In the context you put it, it couldn't mean anything else but "speaking in tongues" as in the odd religious practice.

Why would anyone characterize a knowledge, understanding another language as "gift of the tongues" followed by prophecy etc.

I'm not sure I understand your point of contention.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #51 of 119
5/17/09 at 9:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I'm not sure I understand your point of contention.

Fucking hell!
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post #52 of 119
5/18/09 at 1:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

Fucking hell!

He forgot to mention his church believe in "sacred" undergarments \, that drinking coffee is a sin , that a secret handshake must be learned to participate in certain aspects of church business, and that women can never, never ever, be allowed into the most sacred part of the temple.

Tongues, nothing. It's referring to language. And yes, the Mormon Church is the best language learning institution in the world.
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post #53 of 119
5/18/09 at 5:11am
I went for a walk years ago around an old castle in Scotland, as I walked back to my car I involuntarily spoke two words out loud, one of which I didn't know what meant, but later checked and found it to be a latin word. I knew next to nothing about speaking in tongues at the time and still don't know if that fits the definition of it. It was quite unlike anything else as it really was involuntary on my part.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #54 of 119
5/18/09 at 6:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I went for a walk years ago around an old castle in Scotland, as I walked back to my car I involuntarily spoke two words out loud, one of which I didn't know what meant, but later checked and found it to be a latin word. I knew next to nothing about speaking in tongues at the time and still don't know if that fits the definition of it. It was quite unlike anything else as it really was involuntary on my part.

I can picture it now, as you trip over a stone on the grassy path...

"Osheet metow!"
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post #55 of 119
5/18/09 at 7:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I can picture it now, as you trip over a stone on the grassy path...

"Osheet metow!"



Sounds like "asheet ofmetal" Hmmmm...

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #56 of 119
5/18/09 at 7:24am
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I went for a walk years ago around an old castle in Scotland, as I walked back to my car I involuntarily spoke two words out loud, one of which I didn't know what meant, but later checked and found it to be a latin word. I knew next to nothing about speaking in tongues at the time and still don't know if that fits the definition of it. It was quite unlike anything else as it really was involuntary on my part.

Once when I woke up, I saw a leprechaun, which faded after a couple seconds - no joke.
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post #57 of 119
5/18/09 at 7:29am
It's heartwarming to see the non-religious among us displaying tolerance for views different from their own.
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post #58 of 119
5/18/09 at 7:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

It's heartwarming to see the non-religious among us displaying tolerance for views different from their own.

Religion is not a view. It is a set of laws that make you "happy".

Calling Christ an idiot makes me happy. So we both have happiness.

Happy, happy joy, joy.
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post #59 of 119
5/18/09 at 8:06am
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
How do we really know that God is the good guy and Satan is the bad guy? All we really have is some propaganda written by one side - God got to write the history because the history is always written by the winning side in a war (and Satan lost the war to take over heaven and was cast out).

Even when God writes the story, if we assume that God wrote the bible, he comes off looking like a total sociopath. God's own description of Himself makes him look worse than Pol Pot or any other mass murderer.
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post #60 of 119
5/18/09 at 8:07am
Mormons are cunning linguists?

Wow - who knew?
eye
bee
BEE
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eye
bee
BEE
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post #61 of 119
5/18/09 at 10:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FormerLurker View Post

Mormons are cunning linguists?

Wow - who knew?

I see what you did there.
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post #62 of 119
5/18/09 at 12:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

It's heartwarming to see the non-religious among us displaying tolerance for views different from their own.

In other words, because some people don't believe in your fairy tales, they are intolerant.

As religious leaders have used religion to oppress people and foment hatred and violence (gays, jews, blacks, etc.), is it any wonder that many are fed up with having this cult forced on us in our daily lives and government?
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post #63 of 119
5/18/09 at 12:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I went for a walk years ago around an old castle in Scotland, as I walked back to my car I involuntarily spoke two words out loud, one of which I didn't know what meant, but later checked and found it to be a latin word. I knew next to nothing about speaking in tongues at the time and still don't know if that fits the definition of it. It was quite unlike anything else as it really was involuntary on my part.

What was the other word? Perhaps you're schizophrenic? Talking in jibberish is often a sign of either insanity or schizophrenia. You should have that checked out by a doctor.
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post #64 of 119
5/18/09 at 12:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajectory View Post

What was the other word? Perhaps you're schizophrenic? Talking in jibberish is often a sign of either insanity or schizophrenia. You should have that checked out by a doctor.

Thanks a lot. Someone got banned here recently for saying two words and much as I'd like to right now, I won't repeat them.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #65 of 119
5/18/09 at 12:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajectory View Post

In other words, because some people don't believe in your fairy tales, they are intolerant.

As religious leaders have used religion to oppress people and foment hatred and violence (gays, jews, blacks, etc.), is it any wonder that many are fed up with having this cult forced on us in our daily lives and government?

Amen

= Arabic for "so it is" strangely used to end christian prayers.

Asala Malaikun Amen.
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post #66 of 119
5/18/09 at 1:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Thanks a lot. Someone got banned here recently for saying two words and much as I'd like to right now, I won't repeat them.

So because I won't believe your story about "speaking in tongues" and that a man lives in the sky who can see and hear everything that everyone is doing, you want to cuss me out? How very "christian" of you! Now you'll have to go to confession because you had impure thoughts.
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post #67 of 119
5/18/09 at 1:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajectory View Post

So because I won't believe your story about "speaking in tongues" and that a man lives in the sky who can see and hear everything that everyone is doing, you want to cuss me out? How very "christian" of you! Now you'll have to go to confession because you had impure thoughts.

You were rude, incase you hadn't noticed. You might have once gone to confess your sins, as a Catholic, but I assure you I have no reason to. Impure thoughts don't bother me in the slightest, indeed I welcome them. If you think that my belief in Jesus changes that your very wrong. The fact is Jesus, for me clears me to do what the hell I like, sorry if that doesn't fit with your stereotypes.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #68 of 119
5/18/09 at 1:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamac View Post

Amen

= Arabic for "so it is" strangely used to end christian prayers.

Asala Malaikun Amen.

Yes, I'm sure most christians have no clue about that, and the fact that their entire religion was plagiarized from ancient Egyptian mythology centered around a man named Horus, who was born of a virgin in a cave over which a star (Sirius) shone, was taken from the desert of Amenta up a high mountain by his archrival Sut (precursor to Satan), walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind, etc. etc. etc.

Sound familiar? It's not even a unique fairy tale! Yet millions still believe every word of this mythology to be absolute truth. What a shame Shakespeare didn't write the bible.

Just look at the basis for Scientology: created by a science-fiction writer and based on a science-fiction book! There's absolutely no difference between that and the Christian bible, just the story is different.
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post #69 of 119
5/18/09 at 1:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

You were rude, incase you hadn't noticed. You might have once gone to confess your sins, as a Catholic, but I assure you I have no reason to. Impure thoughts don't bother me in the slightest, indeed I welcome them. If you think that my belief in Jesus changes that your very wrong. The fact is Jesus, for me clears me to do what the hell I like, sorry if that doesn't fit with your stereotypes.

How was I rude?? I'm just concerned about your mental health, that's all.
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post #70 of 119
5/18/09 at 1:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajectory View Post

How was I rude?? I'm just concerned about your mental health, that's all.

Really? Something that once happened years ago and your not being facetious?!! You believe that people who have experiences that don't fit the norm are mentally ill? That if a person has a spiritual experience, they should be grouped into the mentally ill category because it's not what you consider normal?

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #71 of 119
5/18/09 at 3:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

You were rude, incase you hadn't noticed. You might have once gone to confess your sins, as a Catholic, but I assure you I have no reason to. Impure thoughts don't bother me in the slightest, indeed I welcome them. If you think that my belief in Jesus changes that your very wrong. The fact is Jesus, for me clears me to do what the hell I like, sorry if that doesn't fit with your stereotypes.

I would hope Jesus helps you with your English.
I like Jesus and hell in the same sentence, nice touch.

Atheism saves!
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post #72 of 119
5/18/09 at 5:23pm
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The fact is Jesus, for me clears me to do what the hell I like, sorry if that doesn't fit with your stereotypes.

So a mass murderer that raped, skinned and ate babies would go to heaven if he later accepted Jesus as his personal savior? How far does this forgiveness go?

In fact, if he killed his victims before they accepted Jesus, would the murderer to to Heaven and the victims go to Hell?
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post #73 of 119
5/18/09 at 5:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamac View Post

I would hope Jesus helps you with your English.
I like Jesus and hell in the same sentence, nice touch.

Atheism saves!

Jesus went to hell, so it seems only appropriate to me.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #74 of 119
5/18/09 at 5:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

So a mass murderer that raped, skinned and ate babies would go to heaven if he later accepted Jesus as his personal savior? How far does this forgiveness go?

In fact, if he killed his victims before they accepted Jesus, would the murderer to to Heaven and the victims go to Hell?

I think you should ask that question to somebody who believes that only those who believe in Jesus go to heaven. I am not one of them at all.

As far as your first point goes I believe everybody is saved 'no matter' what they have done, do or will do.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #75 of 119
5/19/09 at 12:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I think you should ask that question to somebody who believes that only those who believe in Jesus go to heaven. I am not one of them at all.

As far as your first point goes I believe everybody is saved 'no matter' what they have done, do or will do.

According to the Bible God created women so it is our God given duty to disseminate anything to do with sex as much as possible.
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post #76 of 119
5/19/09 at 1:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Are any of you all here Christ followers / Christians?
If so what are your thoughts of God's provision in your life?
If not I invite you to consider things other than issues of immigration, liberals vs/ conservatives.
What is important to you in your life?
List your top 5 priorities in life be you a Christ follower...

One thing about my life is that I am fortunate enough to be born in that part of the world that is well off. And instead of wasting it with entertaining myself, I try to use my skills to promote good.

1. Doing to others as I would wish they do to me (which pretty much covers most things.)
2. Taking care of this planet through practical environmentalism.
3. Promoting social responsibility.
4. Understanding context of what others say and write to better understand their opinions.
5. Forgiveness.
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post #77 of 119
5/19/09 at 1:18pm
Good Lord, what do you guys think you're going to accomplish here? This thread largely consists of people who have little to no interest/understanding in/of either the history of Christianity, or the history of philosophy, or doing much other than diminishing themselves by being rude.

What you guys are badly attempting to address is the issue of Revelation, whether it exists, and if it does how it relates to Existence/consciousness -- feel free to shit on each other over whose Existential reality is more valid, see what that accomplishes.


Honesty.



(And Fellowship -- if I understand your meaning of "provision" in the OP correctly, Lordship doesn't work that way. Lordship isn't and can't be provisional to existence. We are personalities whose consciousness and logic are derivate of God's, not free-floating Barthian islands catching a Jesus breeze now and then.)

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #78 of 119
5/20/09 at 8:12am
Christians behave like cavemen
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post #79 of 119
5/20/09 at 8:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamac View Post

Christians behave like cavemen

Lets start a satanic cult called: "mac satan worshipers".
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post #80 of 119
5/20/09 at 9:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamac View Post

Christians behave like cavemen

Sick abuse. They should be prosecuted with jail time.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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