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Any Christians here? - Page 3

post #81 of 119
5/20/09 at 9:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamac View Post

Christians behave like cavemen

More "gotcha" games -- it's not relevant to the larger discussion.

(and it's caveperson, btw)

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #82 of 119
5/20/09 at 8:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outsider View Post

I'm not, but I've been baptized twice; once as a Catholic when I was very young and then later, as a teenager, as a member of a fundamentalist religion. In my late teens I transitioned into mild agnosticism and shortly after, an agnostic atheist.

Important things in my life are my daughter and wife, my friends, and pretty much what many Christians find important in their lives, with the notable exception of anything relating to a god or gods.

Hey outsider, me too. I have great memories from my church! Fellows, some of my best memories are from being with the people from my church and activities there! It formed many of my values. My UCC church was so liberal. I had an Indian woman for most of my childhood as my minister, and then another woman, and then a gay man. Boy did I enjoy spicy Indian meatballs for the Sunday coffee hours after the service! I was confirmed, baptized, performed music in the services on the piano when I was little, did lots of stuff. I find Christians such as yourself truly good people, and I feel you and many others are truly implementing the teaching of Christ, not basing your values on snippets here or there inserted by translators or other random characters in the Bible. Well, not only did I find I could not believe in something I could not prove, I was turned off by the perversion of Christianity as well as almost any other religion into a way to keep citizens down by the rich and the twisted. I feel almost every religion that is organized has become a tool for the rich to use against everyone and to keep them down. Hence I became agnostic.
"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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post #83 of 119
5/20/09 at 8:48pm
This is christianity for ya:

Quote:
Victims of child abuse at Catholic institutions in the Irish Republic have expressed anger that a damning report will not bring about prosecutions.
The report, nine years in the making and covering a period of six decades, found thousands of boys and girls were terrorised by priests and nuns.

more at BBC.
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post #84 of 119
5/26/09 at 8:01pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

This is christianity for ya:

That is sin actually.
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #85 of 119
5/26/09 at 8:15pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquatic View Post

Hey outsider, me too. I have great memories from my church! Fellows, some of my best memories are from being with the people from my church and activities there! It formed many of my values. My UCC church was so liberal. I had an Indian woman for most of my childhood as my minister, and then another woman, and then a gay man. Boy did I enjoy spicy Indian meatballs for the Sunday coffee hours after the service! I was confirmed, baptized, performed music in the services on the piano when I was little, did lots of stuff. I find Christians such as yourself truly good people, and I feel you and many others are truly implementing the teaching of Christ, not basing your values on snippets here or there inserted by translators or other random characters in the Bible. Well, not only did I find I could not believe in something I could not prove, I was turned off by the perversion of Christianity as well as almost any other religion into a way to keep citizens down by the rich and the twisted. I feel almost every religion that is organized has become a tool for the rich to use against everyone and to keep them down. Hence I became agnostic.

First of all, thank you for your reply and how frank and polite you are with this reply!

I am sorry to hear of your problem with "believing something you can't prove"

As for what you mention about organized religion being a tool for the rich etc I have a movie which I was very impressed with. It touches on this subject and I highly suggest it for your movie watching list. It is on DVD at this point and you should have no problem renting it. The Second Chance is the name of the film. I will be frank in saying I do not normally care for films which are Christian in nature (that may be a surprise) as normally I find them to be badly badly done and just plain low budget and cheezy.

HOWEVER,,,

"The Second Chance" is a film which helped to change my outlook in many respects. It is film which does GREAT GOOD....

I have to say it shook me to my core at one or two points during the film.

Please look for this film and watch it.

I promise you will be glad you did and it will validate some of your concerns and also show a solution as for reconciliation regarding differing sides of a community, black / white, rich / poor etc.

I was humbled by this film and I can't say enough about it.

It is not cheezy, It is not a bad movie. In fact it is world class and can shake you to your core in the most noble of ways..

Here is a link to a movie trailer:

http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi3975741721/

It is ok but does not do justice to the film. Please watch it.

Respectfully,

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #86 of 119
5/26/09 at 8:26pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimDreamworx View Post

One thing about my life is that I am fortunate enough to be born in that part of the world that is well off. And instead of wasting it with entertaining myself, I try to use my skills to promote good.

1. Doing to others as I would wish they do to me (which pretty much covers most things.)
2. Taking care of this planet through practical environmentalism.
3. Promoting social responsibility.
4. Understanding context of what others say and write to better understand their opinions.
5. Forgiveness.

Not bad bro.

Not bad at all!

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #87 of 119
5/26/09 at 11:08pm
Fellowship:

When Aquatic complains that:
Quote:
...Well, not only did I find I could not believe in something I could not prove, I was turned off by the perversion of Christianity as well as almost any other religion into a way to keep citizens down by the rich and the twisted...

There's little there that is substantial.

The latter complaint could be leveled at any ideology that has ever existed, and the first part is simply a demand that all that is truly meaningful be completely/effectively reduced to human concepts, ideas or images -- a huge leap of faith, in and of itself.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #88 of 119
5/27/09 at 4:28am
Why people believe that invisible agents control the world

Quote:
Souls, spirits, ghosts, gods, demons, angels, aliens, intelligent designers, government conspirators, and all manner of invisible agents with power and intention are believed to haunt our world and control our lives. Why?

[LEFT]The answer has two parts, starting with the concept of “patternicity,” which I defined in my December 2008 column as the human tendency to find meaningful patterns in meaningless noise. Consider the face on Mars, the Virgin Mary on a grilled cheese sandwich, satanic messages in rock music. Of course, some patterns are real. Finding predictive patterns in changing weather, fruiting trees, migrating prey animals and hungry predators was central to the survival of Paleolithic hominids.[/LEFT]

[LEFT]The problem is that we did not evolve a baloney-detection device in our brains to discriminate between true and false patterns. So we make two types of errors: a type I error, or false positive, is believing a pattern is real when it is not; a type II error, or false negative, is not believing a pattern is real when it is. If you believe that the rustle in the grass is a dangerous predator when it is just the wind (a type I error), you are more likely to survive than if you believe that the rustle in the grass is just the wind when it is a dangerous predator (a type II error). Because the cost of making a type I error is less than the cost of making a type II error and because there is no time for careful deliberation between patternicities in the split-second world of predator-prey interactions, natural selection would have favored those animals most likely to assume that all patterns are real.[/LEFT]

But we do something other animals do not do. As large-brained hominids with a developed cortex and a theory of mind—the capacity to be aware of such mental states as desires and intentions in both ourselves and others—we infer agency behind the patterns we observe in a practice I call “agenticity”: the tendency to believe that the world is controlled by invisible intentional agents. We believe that these intentional agents control the world, sometimes invisibly from the top down (as opposed to bottom-up causal randomness). Together patternicity and agenticity form the cognitive basis of shamanism, paganism, animism, polytheism, monotheism, and all modes of Old and New Age spiritualisms.

Agenticity carries us far beyond the spirit world. The Intelligent Designer is said to be an invisible agent who created life from the top down. Aliens are often portrayed as powerful beings coming down from on high to warn us of our impending self-destruction. Conspiracy theories predictably include hidden agents at work behind the scenes, puppet masters pulling political and economic strings as we dance to the tune of the Bilderbergers, the Rothschilds, the Rockefellers or the Illuminati. Even the belief that government can impose top-down measures to rescue the economy is a form of agenticity, with President Barack Obama being touted as “the one” with almost messianic powers who will save us.

There is now substantial evidence from cognitive neuroscience that humans readily find patterns and impart agency to them, well documented in the new book SuperSense (HarperOne, 2009) by University of Bristol psychologist Bruce Hood. Examples: children believe that the sun can think and follows them around; because of such beliefs, they often add smiley faces on sketched suns. Adults typically refuse to wear a mass murderer’s sweater, believing that “evil” is a supernatural force that imparts its negative agency to the wearer (and, alternatively, that donning Mr. Rogers’s cardigan will make you a better person). A third of transplant patients believe that the donor’s personality is transplanted with the organ. Genital-shaped foods (bananas, oysters) are often believed to enhance sexual potency. Subjects watching geometric shapes with eye spots interacting on a computer screen conclude that they represent agents with moral intentions. “Many highly educated and intelligent individuals experience a powerful sense that there are patterns, forces, energies and entities operating in the world,” Hood explains. “More important, such experiences are not substantiated by a body of reliable evidence, which is why they are supernatural and unscientific. The inclination or sense that they may be real is our supersense.”

We are natural-born supernaturalists.

BY MICHAEL SHERMER, Scientific American (Opinion/Skeptic column), June 2009, p. 31
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #89 of 119
5/27/09 at 5:11am
Quote:
...Well, not only did I find I could not believe in something I could not prove, I was turned off by the perversion of Christianity as well as almost any other religion into a way to keep citizens down by the rich and the twisted...

What I find interesting about this assertion is that there is no more "proof" that religion keeps folks down ... there's just interpretation of evidence, which is what (at it's core) religion is - "How did life spring from lifelessness"?

People keep people down, religion is just a description of the boundaries of someone's belief system. In my personal perspective I've just been unable to bound my belief system to fit any classical definition. That said, I don't see how someone can accuse a belief system that bases it's tenets on love and "do unto others" as the rich and twisted keeping people down.
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post #90 of 119
5/27/09 at 7:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

What I find interesting about this assertion is that there is no more "proof" that religion keeps folks down ... there's just interpretation of evidence, which is what (at it's core) religion is - "How did life spring from lifelessness"?

People keep people down, religion is just a description of the boundaries of someone's belief system. In my personal perspective I've just been unable to bound my belief system to fit any classical definition. That said, I don't see how someone can accuse a belief system that bases it's tenets on love and "do unto others" as the rich and twisted keeping people down.

Well put. While some prefer to focus on what they perceive as the "negative" aspects of religion, there are those of us who realize that human beings by nature are imperfect and prone to make mistakes or hurt others - unintentionally or intentionally. However, I believe that we all have divine potential and are therefore capable of doing extraordinarily good things.

One good example is the self-reliance, welfare, and humanitarian service programs provided by my church.

In fact, we have a website devoted to these programs.

It features employment information, job listings, information about our humanitarian aid projects, welfare programs, and a lot more.

Also, here is a link to a PDF on our welfare services that highlights some of the key aspects of our programs: Welfare Services Factsheet

All of these programs and services are subsidized by tithes and donations from the members of the church, and are provided to all regardless of religion, race, nationality, etc. I think we've been able to do a lot of good around the world over the years.

I'm not posting this to "brag", but rather to inform and make aware.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #91 of 119
5/27/09 at 7:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

I am sorry to hear of your problem with "believing something you can't prove"

How is that a "problem"? Seems pretty reasonable to me.
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post #92 of 119
5/27/09 at 9:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outsider View Post

How is that a "problem"? Seems pretty reasonable to me.

It _is_ "reasonable" -- but it's still a faith-based position -- you can't authoritatively say that all is ultimately reducible to human concepts, ideas or images.

To paraphrase North African philosopher, Richard Blaine: I don't mind a [epistemological] parasite. I object to a cut-rate one.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #93 of 119
5/27/09 at 10:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

You can say that with 100% certainty, but you know that on the internet everyone has a very high level of education in many subjects....

That and a dime will get you a cup of coffee.

Just think - if you come off sounding like "just another internet intellectual" to me (after reading my post above you should be able to tell where I'm coming from) then imagine what you sound like to the OP.

Outspoken Atheists and Agnostics are just as bad as any other ultra-worshiper.

Tell me where I can get a cup of coffee for a dime. Then I'll join your church; otherwise, forget it.
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post #94 of 119
5/27/09 at 10:55am
Religion is the "great Satan". People are carefully taught to hate anyone who doesn't believe in their particular belief:

Ireland: Ethnically identical people hate and kill each other in the name of religion.
Catholics vs. Protestants.

Bosnia: Ethnically identical people hate and kill each other in the name of religion.
Christians vs. Moslems.

Middle East: Ethnically identical people hate and kill each other in the name of religion.
Sunnis vs. Shi'ites.
Moslems vs. Jews.

This happens all over the world. Religion = Hatred. Religion is the cause of most of the world's trouble.
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post #95 of 119
5/27/09 at 11:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequitur View Post

Religion is the "great Satan". People are carefully taught to hate anyone who doesn't believe in their particular belief:

Ireland: Ethnically identical people hate and kill each other in the name of religion.
Catholics vs. Protestants.

Bosnia: Ethnically identical people hate and kill each other in the name of religion.
Christians vs. Moslems.

Middle East: Ethnically identical people hate and kill each other in the name of religion.
Sunnis vs. Shi'ites.
Moslems vs. Jews.

This happens all over the world. Religion = Hatred. Religion is the cause of most of the world's trouble.

That's a stupid statement -- people hate each other for all sorts of reasons. Stop and think about the effect throughout history of class envy or simple greed. Consider the damage that Marx's ideology has provided.

Read some history.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #96 of 119
5/27/09 at 11:16am
Folks can be - and have been - taught to hate because of religion, skin color, national identity, and just about every other possible difference that can be detected between humans. Blaming religion for hatred is ridiculous.
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post #97 of 119
5/27/09 at 11:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

It _is_ "reasonable" -- but it's still a faith-based position -- you can't authoritatively say that all is ultimately reducible to human concepts, ideas or images.

To paraphrase North African philosopher, Richard Blaine: I don't mind a [epistemological] parasite. I object to a cut-rate one.

Quote:
Agnosticism (Greek: α- a-, without + γνώσις gnōsis, knowledge; after Gnosticism) is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims — particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of deities, spiritual-beings, or even ultimate reality — is unknown or, depending on the form of agnosticism, inherently impossible to prove or disprove. It is often put forth as a middle ground between theism and atheism,[1] though it is not a religious declaration in itself, and the terms are not mutually exclusive, since agnosticism refers to knowledge, while atheism and theism refer to belief.[2]

Agnosticism

This defines the position most agnostics, such as myself, take.

There can be no deference "that all is ultimately reducible to human concepts, ideas, or images."
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #98 of 119
5/27/09 at 11:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

That's a stupid statement -- people hate each other for all sorts of reasons. Stop and think about the effect throughout history of class envy or simple greed. Consider the damage that Marx's ideology has provided.

Read some history.

Are you saying that the Irish Catholics and Protestants weren't killing each other?; that the Bosnian Christians and Moslems weren't killing each other?; that the Sunnis and Shi'as aren't killing each other?; that the Moslems and Jews aren't killing each other. You don't need to read history. Read the daily newspapers or watch TV.
Sure people hate each other for other reasons. That doesn't stop them from hating each other in the name of religion.
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post #99 of 119
5/27/09 at 11:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Agnosticism

This tightly defines the position most agnostics, such as myself, take.

There can be no deference "that all is ultimately reducible to human concepts, ideas or images."

I think you're talking about "Kant's wall", the noumenal world, etc. Believing that Revelation is impossible or nonexistant is still a belief.

Epistemology models ontology.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #100 of 119
5/27/09 at 11:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequitur View Post

Are you saying that the Irish Catholics and Protestants weren't killing each other?; that the Bosnian Christians and Moslems weren't killing each other?; that the Sunnis and Shi'as aren't killing each other?; that the Moslems and Jews aren't killing each other. You don't need to read history. Read the daily newspapers or watch TV.
Sure people hate each other for other reasons. That doesn't stop them from hating each other in the name of religion.

It's facile to group ideologies into "religious" categories in the first place, and to somehow say that ideologies that don't acknowledge God are less dangerous than those that do is nonsense.

Taken as a whole some "religions" fare better than others. Taking the pluses and minuses of Christianity, and you'll find it's caused more good than harm -- take the pluses and minuses of Marxism, and you'll find that's not the case.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #101 of 119
5/27/09 at 11:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

I think you're talking about "Kant's wall", the noumenal world, etc. Believing that Revelation is impossible or nonexistant is still a belief.

Epistemology models ontology.

No claim is being stated. Thus no belief is being stated.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #102 of 119
5/27/09 at 11:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Taken as a whole some "religions" fare better than others. Taking the pluses and minuses of Christianity, and you'll find it's caused more good than harm

Spoken like a true believer.

You mentioned reading history, have you read about the Inquisition, the witch burning, the Crusades, etc?
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post #103 of 119
5/27/09 at 1:12pm
The Vatican may not be Silicon Valley, but its top communicator knows just how crucial it is for the Church to embrace the 'Net. Young Catholics, you have your marching orderstake the Good News to the new "digital continent."
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #104 of 119
5/27/09 at 2:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

No claim is being stated. Thus no belief is being stated.

Kant made more than a few claims about epistemology, Revelation, etc.

You're not being thorough/honest in/about your epistemology.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #105 of 119
5/27/09 at 2:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequitur View Post

Spoken like a true believer.

You mentioned reading history, have you read about the Inquisition, the witch burning, the Crusades, etc?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

It's facile to group ideologies into "religious" categories in the first place, and to somehow say that ideologies that don't acknowledge God are less dangerous than those that do is nonsense.

(Since we're just repeating ourselves.)

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #106 of 119
5/27/09 at 4:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Kant made more than a few claims about epistemology, Revelation, etc.

You're not being thorough/honest in/about your epistemology.

Strawperson.

My epistemology is based on incontrovertable evidence.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #107 of 119
5/27/09 at 4:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

(Since we're just repeating ourselves.)

Repeating ourselves???? Show me where I said that before. You were probably reading my mind.
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post #108 of 119
5/27/09 at 4:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Strawperson.

My epistemology is based on incontrovertable evidence.

The Scientific Method has little to do with epistemology. It's shocking that you don't understand what I'm driving at! Maybe you don't understand my point because you haven't investigated this past colloquialisms -- but you really owe it to yourself to read some philosophy; just about anyone will do -- Kant, Kierkegaard, Hume, Sartre, etc.

You're (and sequitur too) attempting to blithely traffic in facile buzzwords and catchphrases. If (either of) you had an inkling as to the actual complexities of the "religion is stoopid" meme -- you wouldn't be here embarrassing yourselves. It's not that easy, and in the end we all make faith-based choices.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #109 of 119
5/27/09 at 5:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

The Scientific Method has little to do with epistemology. It's shocking that you don't understand what I'm driving at! Maybe you don't understand my point because you haven't investigated this past colloquialisms -- but you really owe it to yourself to read some philosophy; just about anyone will do -- Kant, Kierkegaard, Hume, Sartre, etc.

You're (and sequitur too) attempting to blithely traffic in facile buzzwords and catchphrases. If (either of) you had an inkling as to the actual complexities of the "religion is stoopid" meme -- you wouldn't be here embarrassing yourselves. It's not that easy, and in the end we all make faith-based choices.

Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #110 of 119
5/27/09 at 10:17pm
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

You're (and sequitur too) attempting to blithely traffic in facile buzzwords and catchphrases.

pot/kettle/black
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
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post #111 of 119
5/28/09 at 4:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

(Since we're just repeating ourselves.)

Yes, you are repeating yourself. You fail to address any questions addressed to you or give any explanation. You just use broad / general terms and religious dogma as responses.
I doubt that you know enough about your cult - excuse me - religion to attempt to answer logically. What responses you do make are those of a faith-blinded religious fanatic lashing out at those who don't believe as you do.
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post #112 of 119
5/28/09 at 9:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post


Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

pot/kettle/black

Quote:
Originally Posted by sequitur View Post

...I doubt that you know enough about your cult - excuse me - religion to attempt to answer logically...



You guys never cease to amaze me; why do yourselves the disservice? You diminish yourselves by not rising to the level of the conversation (if it can even be called that). There's a whole world out there of big words and hard to understand books -- give them a whirl.

Quote:
Road-Song of the Bandar-Log

Here we go in a flung festoon,
Half-way up to the jealous moon!
Don't you envy our pranceful bands?
Don't you wish you had extra hands?
Wouldn't you like if your tails were--so--
Curved in the shape of a Cupid's bow?
Now you're angry, but--never mind,
Brother, thy tail hangs down behind!


Here we sit in a branchy row,
Thinking of beautiful things we know;
Dreaming of deeds that we mean to do,
All complete, in a minute or two--
Something noble and wise and good,
Done by merely wishing we could.
We've forgotten, but--never mind,
Brother, thy tail hangs down behind!


All the talk we ever have heard
Uttered by bat or beast or bird--
Hide or fin or scale or feather--
Jabber it quickly and all together!
Excellent! Wonderful! Once again!


Now we are talking just like men!
Let's pretend we are ... never mind,
Brother, thy tail hangs down behind!
This is the way of the Monkey-kind.


Then join our leaping lines that scumfish through the pines,
That rocket by where, light and high, the wild grape swings.
By the rubbish in our wake, and the noble noise we make,
Be sure, be sure, we're going to do some splendid things!

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #113 of 119
5/28/09 at 9:15am
We are great. We are free. We are wonderful. We are the most wonderful people in all the jungle! We all say so, and so it must be true
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post #114 of 119
5/28/09 at 10:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post



You guys never cease to amaze me; why do yourselves the disservice? You diminish yourselves by not rising to the level of the conversation (if it can even be called that). There's a whole world out there of big words and hard to understand books -- give them a whirl.

Let's see now, repeated strawpersons and abject ad hominems.

So what purpose is served by reading the entire body of philosophy, when that would clearly consume several lifetimes?

Reading static thoughts through history, when those very same thoughts are constrained or locked to said periods of history.

Me, I prefer the philosophy of now, not the philosophy of then, with it's inherent inbred historical constraints.

Quote:
Meanwhile, in an essay that emphasizes parallels between scientism and traditional religious movements, The Skeptics Society founder Michael Shermer self-identifies as "scientistic" and defines the term as "a scientific worldview that encompasses natural explanations for all phenomena, eschews supernatural and paranormal speculations, and embraces empiricism and reason as the twin pillars of a philosophy of life appropriate for an Age of Science."[16]

Scientism

Contemporary philosophy

Analytic philosophy

Note: None of the above exactly describes my own personal philosophy.

Methinks you are engaging in deconstructionist philosophy, which in itself is a crock of hot steaming stinking shit, as is the school of continential philosophy you appear to adhere to.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #115 of 119
5/28/09 at 10:32am
Does that set a PO record for number of Wikipedia articles linked in a single post?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #116 of 119
5/28/09 at 10:44am
franksargent:

You're missing the entire point of epistemology. Everything is dependent on how we "know" things. You either don't understand this, or haven't familiarized yourself with it.

You could accumulate all the knowledge in the world --just for one example -- but if your senses are in part forming that knowledge of the "wholly other" you have only a tentative knowledge at best. And that's nothing to brag about. Also: Khun, Polanyi, Popper, etc. are hardly the poster children of "deconstructionism".

READ!


To repeat:
Your claim to true knowledge of all this meaningful is simply a [very tired] demand that all that is truly meaningful be completely/effectively reduced to human concepts, ideas or images -- a huge leap of faith, in and of itself. By your own terms you've limited yourself to what can be measured, described completely, etc. Lame.


You can have the rest of the dead horse. I can't believe how blockheaded you are being -- this is the 21st century for heaven's sake.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #117 of 119
5/28/09 at 10:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

franksargent:

You're missing the entire point of epistemology. Everything is dependent on how we "know" things. You either don't understand this, or haven't familiarized yourself with it.

You could accumulate all the knowledge in the world --just for one example -- but if your senses are in part forming that knowledge of the "wholly other" you have only a tentative knowledge at best. And that's nothing to brag about. Also: Khun, Polanyi, Popper, etc. are hardly the poster children of "deconstructionism".

READ!


To repeat:
Your claim to true knowledge of all this meaningful is simply a [very tired] demand that all that is truly meaningful be completely/effectively reduced to human concepts, ideas or images -- a huge leap of faith, in and of itself. By your own terms you've limited yourself to what can be measured, described completely, etc. Lame.


You can have the rest of the dead horse. I can't believe how blockheaded you are being -- this is the 21st century for heaven's sake.

Even more strawpeople and abject ad hominems. Go figure.

You still fail to understand the basics, that being that I already know much more than you will ever be capable of knowing, and that I fully understand what knowing actually means.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
post #118 of 119
5/28/09 at 11:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Does that set a PO record for number of Wikipedia articles linked in a single post?

Why don't you try Conservapedia for rubbutals.
http://www.conservapedia.com/Main_Page

You may discover some gems like this picture of Darwin.
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post #119 of 119
5/28/09 at 12:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

Why don't you try Conservapedia for rubbutals.
http://www.conservapedia.com/Main_Page

You may discover some gems like this picture of Darwin.

The real irony here is that someone here is apparently claiming or conflating truth/belief/faith with Truth/Belief/Faith.

Having truth/belief/faith is a non sequiter as all people, and for that matter most animals, have these thoughts, and would not be able to function otherwise.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
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