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Apple fires its return salvo as Microsoft issues misleading 5th ad - Page 7

post #241 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadisonTate View Post

Try pricing a Dell T7500 against a Mac Pro Nehalem (be sure to use 55xx Xeon processors for both). Apple is actually a good bit cheaper!

I know and you made my point. When people say macs are over priced and bring up the mac pro, most compare a dell and point out that the mac is cheaper and it is.

What users are really trying to say is that there is no mid range or desktop Mac that's not an iMac and that the Mac Pro is designed to have higher margins when Apple could have built a 8 Core non server processor and used regular ram. By building it the way they did, they keep price comparisons on par with pcs. What's really needed is to benchmark a hackntosh 8 core i7 machine against a mac pro. This will tell the real story as desktops rarely break down. This the low price for apple care. The desktops dell sells in that price range are not geared toward the consume, they, and all other of makers have mid range, high end, ie not the top of the line yet powerful, desktops wheras apple does not. Even their iMac, if you consider it a desktop, runs on mobile parts. Frankly, I bet if apple released a i7 8 core machine for $1100, you would never hear about over priced anymore. Maybe once in a while on the mac book pros, but not nearly as much as we hear now.

Peace.
post #242 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by imapcandmac View Post

I used XP for years and an app crash hardly ever caused a total crash. Have you ever used Windows?

XP is, in theory, is easier to crash than Vista or 7. It is simple matter of design.

However, number of XP crashes I have seen is getting lower and lower as the time pass by; is it due to XP patches, or new versions of apps playing more by the rules, I don't know - but it seems definitely less common for applications to crash XP today, compared to early days. \

Vista is rock solid. Short of faulty hardware or really crappy driver (very uncommon nowadays), crashing Vista really requires an effort.
post #243 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by akhomerun View Post

Being smart enough to run a Windows computer without getting a virus is too much to ask of a typical user. I have been running Windows for years without viruses as well, but you and I aren't your typical computer buyer. The fact is that Vista is certainly an improvement on security, but if you are a typical Windows user that means either getting a poor free anti-virus solution or paying upwards of $60/year for anti-virus protection.

OS X's ties to Apple's hardware are the only major disadvantage to owning a Mac. Nobody's forcing anyone to get one, but unfortunately Apple is the only real competitor to Microsoft's OS on a consumer level. The reality is that it doesn't really matter what hardware you get, it's all made by contracted chinese factories no matter which brand you buy.

I would hardly call tying Mac OS X to Apple hardware as a disadvantage of owning a Mac. If you own a Mac you will able to run Mac OS X and if you wanted to Windows or Linux on the same Apple box. What I think you are trying to say is that Mac OS X is disadvantaged by not being able run on any old PC hardware.

The point is that the Mac platform is more than just the software, the hardware is designed to work with the software and vs versa. This is why the Mac offers a better user experience to users. If you just take the bits you want you will end up with a compromised solution. Also how on earth could you expect Apple to certify it's OS capable of running on Joe Bloggs computer. Microsoft tries to do this and the user experience is not pleasant. Many PCs are sold with inferior hardware which is substandard and prone to failure. You can blatantly see this in the poor viewing viewing angles and washed out colours on your supermarket laptop display.
post #244 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiimamac View Post

I know and you made my point. When people say macs are over priced and bring up the mac pro, most compare a dell and point out that the mac is cheaper and it is.

What users are really trying to say is that there is no mid range or desktop Mac that's not an iMac and that the Mac Pro is designed to have higher margins when Apple could have built a 8 Core non server processor and used regular ram. By building it the way they did, they keep price comparisons on par with pcs. What's really needed is to benchmark a hackntosh 8 core i7 machine against a mac pro. This will tell the real story as desktops rarely break down. This the low price for apple care. The desktops dell sells in that price range are not geared toward the consume, they, and all other of makers have mid range, high end, ie not the top of the line yet powerful, desktops wheras apple does not. Even their iMac, if you consider it a desktop, runs on mobile parts. Frankly, I bet if apple released a i7 8 core machine for $1100, you would never hear about over priced anymore. Maybe once in a while on the mac book pros, but not nearly as much as we hear now.

Peace.

There is clearly no market for these machines
post #245 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

You can't beat a good anecdote.



Microsoft's entire ad campaign seems very short-sighted to me. It's like McDonald's offering 99¢ hamburgers. Sure, more people will be attracted to 99¢ hamburgers in a recession, when they feel a need to watch every dollar, but it's not because they really prefer to eat cheap hamburgers. When the crunch is over and people start feeling better about their economic circumstances, they'll want something better. How is Microsoft's "ours are cheaper!" campaign going to look in 6-12 months, when people starting thinking more about what they really want?

In 6 or 12 months, no one is going to remember present ads.
post #246 of 321
Not true. PM me and I will tell you who I am.

I have worked at the director level and am really BLESSED, LUCKY and blessed some more (thank you God), now enjoy scoring for feature films and tv. I also have several sample CDs out for garage band and Sonys Acid program I worked for the same company for years and even worked in business affairs. Care to talk about contracts, licensing, synch and master legal matters? LOL

My first job was retail though then I worked for a bank before college and then the entertainment business. If you google my name you would see many hits and movie credits. I am tempted to have you call me but consider myself blessed to be working when I see others struggle.

Really, I am a fun guy so PM me and I will tell you who I am.

I've been ranting at Apple ever since the days of the G4 and the so called portable recording studio when at the time, the Athlon was pouncing it. It was my dual computer certs and EE background that made me tech savvy and I always saw through the bogus Apple marketing and at the time, Intel's bogus benchmarks.

I knew all about FPU benchmarks and what that meant to audio/video plug ins for years. I worked in avid media bays back when the G3 machines took 1/2 an hour to render 10 minutes worth of work. My yahoo account was created in 1997. I can post a message on the yahoo stock market board where you can see 1997 if you like.
I then became an overclocker and gaming enthusiast, becoming a member of mad onion before this forum existed. I then became friends with the founder if The Inquirer, Mike Magee, UK, and learned all about inside secrets years before links to his site were posted here.

I then got frustated when the number one software sampler of the time was PC only, it was called, gigastudio, so you know what I did? I became a beta tester for the company that had the product and though never released, I have one of the few working mac versions.

I am actaully a fun and lovable guy but enjoy a good, honest rant, as much as the next guy and I still think macs are over priced and under powered but the OS is one of the best, is it trouble free? No, not when you work on it all day it's not.

Have a good day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

Now, you finally make sense to me.

You used to work for Apple as a genius and got fired (for your obvious bad attitude and poor interpersonal skills), and thus are a bitter, ex-Apple employee with an axe to grind.

Now, the fact that you totally rage-out every day about every little detail of everything related to Apple makes perfect sense. Nothing Apple can ever do will fix the hurt when they fired you eh?

LOL!

PS - Don't bother arguing you weren't fired. I have ten years retail experience and 15 as a computer tech. A guy with your attitude would be fired in a week tops no matter what his technical skills.
post #247 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stashman View Post

There is clearly no market for these machines

Your kidding right? I hope so. Saying there is no market for a machine that doesn't tie you down with a glossy display made up of mobile parts versus a machine that is NOT made up of server parts has no demand??? Where have you been since the liquid cooled dual G5's?

Or are you intentionally adding flame bait to the thread. There are many audio/video proSumers that would love these machines but don't want to blow $3000 grand on a Mac Pro. I have worked in the software (music) business and the marketshare makes the pro market look enimic. The bedroom, bands, prosumer project studios and camcorder crowd is 10s of thousands more than the pro markets. This is where comapnies like cakewalk, steinberg, ableton make their millions. In facts, the audio crowd was livid when firewire was dropped from the MacBook and still are.
Check out audio video forums. They scream for midrange and the i7 is close to xeon chips but apple wants the higher margins. DAW users know a lot about fpu, gpu, CPU more than most.

Surely you jest. In addition, many predict the bedroom director/editors to be the next wave of entertainment, replacing television programming as we now know it
post #248 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiimamac View Post

Your kidding right? I hope so. Saying there is no market for a machine...

Absolutes are never good thing, so how about... "The market for a mid-range headless Mac solution is not large enough and, by extension, not profitable enough for Apple to care about at this time"
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post #249 of 321
At Least they got a very cute girl this time.
post #250 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiimamac View Post

Your kidding right? I hope so. Saying there is no market for a machine that doesn't tie you down with a glossy display made up of mobile parts versus a machine that is NOT made up of server parts has no demand??? Where have you been since the liquid cooled dual G5's?

Or are you intentionally adding flame bait to the thread. There are many audio/video proSumers that would love these machines but don't want to blow $3000 grand on a Mac Pro. I have worked in the software (music) business and the marketshare makes the pro market look enimic. The bedroom, bands, prosumer project studios and camcorder crowd is 10s of thousands more than the pro markets. This is where comapnies like cakewalk, steinberg, ableton make their millions. In facts, the audio crowd was livid when firewire was dropped from the MacBook and still are.
Check out audio video forums. They scream for midrange and the i7 is close to xeon chips but apple wants the higher margins. DAW users know a lot about fpu, gpu, CPU more than most.

Surely you jest. In addition, many predict the bedroom director/editors to be the next wave of entertainment, replacing television programming as we now know it

I'm actually serious. For an Apple machine to be viable it requires sales volume and clear differentiation from other products in Apple's range. While such a machine 'may' sell in some volume Apple have highly likely done their research and found wouldn't be viable and is too close to other Apple products. Contrary to common believe, less choose is better, since it make's it easer for buyer to make a clear choice.

Ultimately this product would probably fall into the same category as the old and unsuccessful Centris range, 'stuck' between the consumer Performa and pro Quadra ranges.

Lets just have a quick look at the options that Apple currently offers for a Prosumer desktop:

The iMac is clearly the target prosumer desktop. These are high end computers with great displays, are easily capable of mixing tracks and video editing. Take 24 inch model stating at $1,499.00, deck one out and it will cost you around $2,199.00

The MacPro is a workstation class machine, you are right it's a Pro machine, it's like medium format digital camera, it's a serous computer which you need to justify the expense. However starting at $2,499 new, or look at the referb store and get a MacPro with two 2.8GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon processors for $2,399.00 - that's still a great machine, It's by no means out of reach of prosumer's.

Now for a possible quad core desktop, target price $1,500 - $2,000, ok, for this price we could get an iMac which comes with a 24inch display, further the iMac's dual cores are clocked higher and probably be more beneficial the user than the 4 cores. Spend a bit more and you have yourself a MacPro which with it's Xeon processors and architecture will you last longer.
post #251 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Absolutes are never good thing, so how about... "The market for a mid-range headless Mac solution is not large enough and, by extension, not profitable enough for Apple to care about at this time"

This. It's really the most logical, obvious answer, and I'm quite sure it's the one Apple board members are familiar with.

The current lineup of Macs have been selling very, very well since 2006. And now we're seeing a significant shift toward notebooks. No real reason for a mid-range headless Mac when the average user who is part of Apple's market is looking for a notebook of some kind.

Desktops as we know them today are on the way out. And there's only so much you can fit into a Mini at this point. The headless Mini is the real desktop form-factor of the future. The Mac Pro is a different story. But that beast won't be immune to miniaturization, either. Large (and thin) disaplys are the name of the game, not large towers and cases.

The iMac will continue to sell because of its all-in-one convenience, but there's no way it will ever compete with Apple's notebook lineup anymore. Those days are gone.
post #252 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

In 6 or 12 months, no one is going to remember present ads.

Not only that, but even people here might not remember them specifically, as every time an article like this comes out, it gets filled with page after page of the same mindless bs, and this will all just blend into one fuzzy memory.

Seriously, I keep reading the same exact thing over and over with people repeating system specs and pricing, or talking about the operating systems, or what consumers "want." Doesn't anyone get tired of it?
post #253 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

Or they got pissed of with years of Apple making fun of them.

I can see how annoying that might feel for MS - like having a mosquito buzzing around your ears, each time with just a bit different frequency

I wouldn't call it being pissed. It's business.

Are you saying that Apple is so insignificant that MS would consider them a mosquito? In OS marketshare sure, but in value as a company, and surely the other PC vendors (where Apple actually competes head to head) they take most of the profitable market.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

But Apple keep saying my PCs are crashing and getting viruses all the time. Ooooh, they must be right!

My aunt just called me up yesterday. She is having BSOD on her notebook periodically. Her machine also takes 10 minutes to boot up with Kaspersey running and it's dog slow. This was not the case when she first got it.
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post #254 of 321
I thought this was an interesting take on the MS ads,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7pkM6NFlfE
post #255 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by iStink View Post

Not only that, but even people here might not remember them specifically, as every time an article like this comes out, it gets filled with page after page of the same mindless bs, and this will all just blend into one fuzzy memory.

Seriously, I keep reading the same exact thing over and over with people repeating system specs and pricing, or talking about the operating systems, or what consumers "want." Doesn't anyone get tired of it?

It gets repetitive after a while, but this is an Apple fansite. All fansites/entusiast sites are like this, whether it's about Macs, Harleys, or whatever brand of TV.
post #256 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by iStink View Post

Not only that, but even people here might not remember them specifically, as every time an article like this comes out, it gets filled with page after page of the same mindless bs, and this will all just blend into one fuzzy memory.

Seriously, I keep reading the same exact thing over and over with people repeating system specs and pricing, or talking about the operating systems, or what consumers "want." Doesn't anyone get tired of it?

Don't forget the posts where we complain about what others are complaining about. It's a never ending cycle.
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post #257 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by iStink View Post

Seriously, I keep reading the same exact thing over and over with people repeating system specs and pricing, or talking about the operating systems, or what consumers "want." Doesn't anyone get tired of it?

Yes and then some. Solipism is very good at it; in fact he' s perfected it. Anything that Apple doesn't produce presently - he states the public doesn't want it. Then once Apple releases it, he backtracks and states that's not what he' s meant, Apple does it better, and on and on , etc , etc. Calls people "complainers"- note his above post.
Quite pathetic actually.
However- on OS issues- he's one of the best.
post #258 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Don't forget the posts where we complain about what others are complaining about. It's a never ending cycle.

Sorry for complaining. I skimmed through this entire thread and found no new information or insight being offered on the subject and felt as thought it was rather insane that this discussion repeats its self so often around here lol.

But seeing as how I haven't added anything myself, I'm not exactly helping the situation. I'll shut up now
post #259 of 321
But see, the problem is apple positions the products in a way that it seems like just a little more money you can have the product you need until the next thing you know, you went way over budget. They leave out little things that makes the apple that more special

Now with regard to market research, they would have found that 10s of thousands of audio users were furious the FireWire got dumped and it was not about size but more about a better gpu and not wanting pro users to buy the low end. They would have also found that all the new iLife trainees had FireWire camcorders so IMHO they did not do their research or rather, they did but they want the end user to pay up if they want these missing features.

With regard to i7 it's just a matter if turning in the ecc switch and using non ecc memory. This drops the price quite a bit and the benchmarks are the same with some important benchmarks faster dye to non ecc and less communication between the CPU child making it faster. There are hundereds and hundereds if music forums, and video, and it's a known fact the prosumer market drives audio video hardware and these same users would love a mid range machine as this allows them to upgrade ram easy, choose a better graphic card, add PCI audioboricessibg cards, add special video digitizing cards, things you can't do with an iMac yet theses special audioncards can be had fir $300 dollars or so. A very differnt market than you mac pro AJAcard user base. The market is there but apple refuses nitvdue to lack of demand but due to forcing the end user to buy the top of the line when this said user wouldn't benifit from the server xeons, in fact, on some benchmarks, the xeon has features useless to the prosumer. I actually heard from the mouths of sales and marketing from Sony and Stienbeeg were theybsais the prosumer carries their company. They even went on to say that off the record, pirating doesn't hurt them but helps them as their software and loops are being promoted.

My .03 cents.

Peace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stashman View Post

I'm actually serious. For an Apple machine to be viable it requires sales volume and clear differentiation from other products in Apple's range. While such a machine 'may' sell in some volume Apple have highly likely done their research and found wouldn't be viable and is too close to other Apple products. Contrary to common believe, less choose is better, since it make's it easer for buyer to make a clear choice.

Ultimately this product would probably fall into the same category as the old and unsuccessful Centris range, 'stuck' between the consumer Performa and pro Quadra ranges.

Lets just have a quick look at the options that Apple currently offers for a Prosumer desktop:

The iMac is clearly the target prosumer desktop. These are high end computers with great displays, are easily capable of mixing tracks and video editing. Take 24 inch model stating at $1,499.00, deck one out and it will cost you around $2,199.00

The MacPro is a workstation class machine, you are right it's a Pro machine, it's like medium format digital camera, it's a serous computer which you need to justify the expense. However starting at $2,499 new, or look at the referb store and get a MacPro with two 2.8GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon processors for $2,399.00 - that's still a great machine, It's by no means out of reach of prosumer's.

Now for a possible quad core desktop, target price $1,500 - $2,000, ok, for this price we could get an iMac which comes with a 24inch display, further the iMac's dual cores are clocked higher and probably be more beneficial the user than the 4 cores. Spend a bit more and you have yourself a MacPro which with it's Xeon processors and architecture will you last longer.
post #260 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I wouldn't call it being pissed. It's business.

Are you saying that Apple is so insignificant that MS would consider them a mosquito? In OS marketshare sure, but in value as a company, and surely the other PC vendors (where Apple actually competes head to head) they take most of the profitable market.



My aunt just called me up yesterday. She is having BSOD on her notebook periodically. Her machine also takes 10 minutes to boot up with Kaspersey running and it's dog slow. This was not the case when she first got it.

Correct.

Apple is an industry leader. Market share in terms of premium products is always lower, but Apple owns the market share at the Premium end - well over 70% of it. And the overall share at the Premium end is a lot smaller. It's a pyramid and we're looking at the the top or near the top. So people with enough disposable income or otherwise enogh to spend comfortably on a Mac of some sort (and the ability to actually deliver on their own tastes) are choosing Macs. This of course makes MS/PC-ware not only look cheaper, but consigns their image to bargain-bin status. Not good. And the MS ads are doing a wonderful job of reinforcing this message. I'm not sure who would want to associate themselves with it, apart from those who simply have no choice. Lauren, Giampaolo, and all those examples of consumers WANT Macs. They simply aren't in a position to afford them. It seems MS inadvertently delivers this message along with the "we're cheaper" message. Perhaps there's really no divorcing one from the other, anyway. You decide.

MS can only dream of owning the most coveted portion of the market - the high-margin, higher-income end. This end of the market not only presents less pressure in terms of production, but it also tends to esatblish product image and exclusivity - something to be coveted. And it helps keep you honest in terms of quality and fit-and-finish. Nothing but the best for this end of the market. This tip of the market pyramid can singlehandedly push your product into "must-have" status.

MS is to varying degrees locked out of this end.

Apple is the most significant tech player of our time. With the market share they have (kept exclusive and "Premium-oriented"), Apple now has more cash on hand than Microsoft. With a fraction of the production. Apple doesn't do high volume Macs and OS X. They don't want to, nor should they. That will only dilute product image and eventually, quality. MS only wishes it could pull off the kind of margins Apple can. But the average peson looks at an MS/PC product and the last thing they think of is tasteful, functional beauty.

MS' recent ads are simply meant to increase sales at any cost - mostly of PC's which come with Windows installed anyway. All this really does in the long run is just slag on MS and the other PC manufacturers. It effectively kills any chance they have of pushing further into the Premium end. But this is what happens when you scrape from the bottom.
post #261 of 321
PM me with number. Will call her and see if I can help her out.

Peace

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I wouldn't call it being pissed. It's business.

Are you saying that Apple is so insignificant that MS would consider them a mosquito? In OS marketshare sure, but in value as a company, and surely the other PC vendors (where Apple actually competes head to head) they take most of the profitable market.



My aunt just called me up yesterday. She is having BSOD on her notebook periodically. Her machine also takes 10 minutes to boot up with Kaspersey running and it's dog slow. This was not the case when she first got it.
post #262 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

In 6 or 12 months, no one is going to remember present ads.

Possibly, but I'm still not convinced of the wisdom of Microsoft's approach. Look how long Apple has been running their "I'm a Mac" campaign. It's got legs because it builds the image of the product and the company in the minds of consumers. You see this in a lot of ad campaigns. I think probably the best of them don't try to be momentary and forgettable. Microsoft has tried the opposite approach -- the advertising equivalent to negative political campaigning. Driving up the other guy's negatives is the kind of approach you take when you're behind. You hope it hurts them more than it hurts you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Don't forget the posts where we complain about what others are complaining about. It's a never ending cycle.

Ah, what a dumb post!

Please don't be insane.
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post #263 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiimamac View Post

PM me with number. Will call her and see if I can help her out.

Peace

I appeciate the offer, but I took care if it.

I haw a rule with family ad friends. I'm mot
rethan happy to assist them with their current Windows PC but if there next one is not a Mac I won't assist them anymore. I have spent too much time doing charity work on Windows.
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post #264 of 321
I'd take the cheapest Mac over the most expensive Dell any day.

I would consider the Dell Mini 9 netbook however... since you can easily run OS X on it!

Jim
post #265 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Possibly, but I'm still not convinced of the wisdom of Microsoft's approach. Look how long Apple has been running their "I'm a Mac" campaign. It's got legs because it builds the image of the product and the company in the minds of consumers. You see this in a lot of ad campaigns. I think probably the best of them don't try to be momentary and forgettable.

The effectiveness of Apple's ads has already been proven. They're quite brilliant. Several of them have won awards over the years, and if the tech world's Odd Couple isn't memorable, I don't know what is. The I'm A Mac ads are anything but forgettable. And they employ some very subtle and effective techniques. Part of the advantage is that they play on the public consciousness - what we already know, and have known for years, about Windows and generic PCs.
post #266 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

The effectiveness of Apple's ads has already been proven. They're quite brilliant. Several of them have won awards over the years, and if the tech world's Odd Couple isn't memorable, I don't know what is. The I'm A Mac ads are anything but forgettable. And they employ some very subtle and effective techniques. Part of the advantage is that they play on the public consciousness - what we already know, and have known for years, about Windows and generic PCs.

I don't know how you prove the effectiveness of ad campaigns but even so I think it's obvious that Apple has been working hard to build a positive corporate image in the minds of consumers over the long haul. This is where I question Microsoft's approach. Maybe I need to study Microsoft's ads more closely but from what I've seen they seem to begging consumers to lower their expectations. This doesn't strike me as a long-run strategy. But then very little of what Microsoft does seems to follow a strategy.
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post #267 of 321
Quote:
Driving up the other guy's negatives is the kind of approach you take when you're behind. You hope it hurts them more than it hurts you.

How can you say that with a straight face?! That's *exactly* the approach Apple takes! Microsoft plays on Apple's negative, which is the high price and very limited choice, and Apple plays on Microsoft's negative, which is viruses and usability. I think it's fair to say that both ad campaigns are as bad as each other - they're like a pair of monkeys flinging poo at each other.

Quote:
This is where I question Microsoft's approach. Maybe I need to study Microsoft's ads more closely but from what I've seen they seem to begging consumers to lower their expectations.

I think you've got that backwards. They're not asking you to lower your expectations, they're saying that your expectations can be met and exceeded, for less money, by buying a PC. Part of it is to do with the extra specs you get for your money, and part of it is to do with the fact that the vast vast majority of users can do everything the Mac can do, just as quickly and efficiently, on a PC, and not have to waste a lot of extra money in the process.
post #268 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by iStink View Post

Not only that, but even people here might not remember them specifically, as every time an article like this comes out, it gets filled with page after page of the same mindless bs, and this will all just blend into one fuzzy memory.

Seriously, I keep reading the same exact thing over and over with people repeating system specs and pricing, or talking about the operating systems, or what consumers "want." Doesn't anyone get tired of it?

you would not be here bitching if YOU WAS tired of the same ole same

your post would not exist
whats in a name ? 
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post #269 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

I don't know how you prove the effectiveness of ad campaigns but even so I think it's obvious that Apple has been working hard to build a positive corporate image in the minds of consumers over the long haul. This is where I question Microsoft's approach. Maybe I need to study Microsoft's ads more closely but from what I've seen they seem to begging consumers to lower their expectations. This doesn't strike me as a long-run strategy. But then very little of what Microsoft does seems to follow a strategy.

There are many metrics. One is survey to see who remembers the ads, if they enjoy watching the ad as opposed to changing the channel, if they understand what the product being advertised was, and if they have purchased or plan to purchase or even looked into the product because of the ad. Another method would be to gauge sales of the product or even "foot traffic" to the B&M and online stores after the commercials starting airing.

Those are just a couple of very simple things you can do without getting into too much detail. There is a lot of number crunching involved, too. The fact is, advertising as a whole does work while is why companies pay so much for it, and when an idea doesn't work (like in the Gates/Seinfeld ads) they drop it for something else. In a related manner, when a company or product name has failed you change it. AIG to AIU, VIsta to Windows 7, .Mac to MobileMe.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #270 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrochester View Post

How can you say that with a straight face?! That's *exactly* the approach Apple takes! Microsoft plays on Apple's negative, which is the high price and very limited choice, and Apple plays on Microsoft's negative, which is viruses and usability. I think it's fair to say that both ad campaigns are as bad as each other - they're like a pair of monkeys flinging poo at each other.

I realize that Apple points out Microsoft's negatives in their ads. I'm not trying to take sides, or make value judgments. I'm only reflecting on which company is using their ad campaign to build a corporate image. Microsoft has always had problems with managing their image; I see this current ad campaign as an extension of this problem.

Quote:
I think you've got that backwards. They're not asking you to lower your expectations, they're saying that your expectations can be met and exceeded, for less money, by buying a PC. Part of it is to do with the extra specs you get for your money, and part of it is to do with the fact that the vast vast majority of users can do everything the Mac can do, just as quickly and efficiently, on a PC, and not have to waste a lot of extra money in the process.

Will all respect, I think I have it forwards, and I think you tipped your hand with your last sentence. Most people don't buy specifications. My point is, selling down is a tactic with limited potential. It may have some value in tough economic times, but it plays to that motivation only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

There are many metrics. One is survey to see who remembers the ads, if they enjoy watching the ad as opposed to changing the channel, if they understand what the product being advertised was, and if they have purchased or plan to purchase or even looked into the product because of the ad. Another method would be to gauge sales of the product or even "foot traffic" to the B&M and online stores after the commercials starting airing.

Those are just a couple of very simple things you can do without getting into too much detail. There is a lot of number crunching involved, too. The fact is, advertising as a whole does work while is why companies pay so much for it, and when an idea doesn't work (like in the Gates/Seinfeld ads) they drop it for something else. In a related manner, when a company or product name has failed you change it. AIG to AIU, VIsta to Windows 7, .Mac to MobileMe.

I don't doubt that people in advertising have methods for measuring the effectiveness of their work. I was just being a bit of a skeptic towards the assertion that the "effectiveness of Apple's ads has already been proven." Maybe they have and I haven't read about it. Either way, on a qualitative basis I can certainly see that Apple has been far more effective than Microsoft in targeting their ad campaigns towards building a positive corporate image. The pieces fit together. Microsoft has never been able to represent a coherent corporate image in their advertising. Until recently, they never really had to.
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post #271 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrochester View Post

Part of it is to do with the extra specs you get for your money, and part of it is to do with the fact that the vast vast majority of users can do everything the Mac can do, just as quickly and efficiently, on a PC, and not have to waste a lot of extra money in the process.

No. Not by a mile. You're missing about 20+ years of Apple OS, software, and hardware design, including the game-changing, copied and coveted (but smartly patented) development of OS X, which is basically the highest and most evolved expression of NeXT. Apple's software architecture is what consistently sets it apart from everything else out there. There is a right way and a wrng way to do an OS. And one of the wrong ways is to place the experience in the hands of an ocean of third party hardware peddlers. Licensing killed Windows in terms of what it COULD have been, which is what OS X is NOW and has been for nearly nine years. it's the closed model vs. open model argument. It's a tightly-knit, well-configured environment vs. what you get with XP and Vista, and if MS' track record is anything to go by, what you'll be getting somehow, some way, with Win 7.

Yes, you can do e-mail and surf the net and do work on both operating systems. And you can fell a tree with an axe and a chainsaw. Both will get you the same result in the end.

It's the experience in-between that counts.

When it comes to the tools you use every single day, sometimes for hours on end, there is no such thing as wasting money. Unless you cheap out.
post #272 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep View Post

bullshit

mac in there class are way higher than 4 percent

first off delete from the list all p.c. under 1000 $$
then delete all the cloud clone company sales

then factor in that macs last much longer than most p/cs
\\mac owners love there p/c and take great care of them

also mac are priced for what is inside
Mac's always include the doors and the tire's and the steering wheel
mac os is great
vista sucks
window 7 is vista
and all that is inside like iphoto imovie iweb itunes an on and on all sync together
And all that media 100-gig's to over 2 tb;s worth can hang tough in the mac and out side hard drives . Yet your access to all this media data is the same. And fast too . Open imovie and its all there .

So that movie I am making looks great with cool photo's added and sound good to w/some live pink floyd thrown in . And since I know shit about all this computer stuff I'm happy mac makes is simple and safe to use .

Mac's don't crash
mac users don't spend days on the phone to India
Mac users go to a store and get things fixed on the spot for free .


mac users feel sorry for you guys

Is he freakin' kidding? Do you even understand what backdating means? Do you, for that manner, know that the only person convicted was Apple's legal counsel at the time (because she was the one that told them it was legal). Do you also realize that companies have legal counsel because the legality of an action is not always clear cut given the numerous business laws on the books and the jurisdictions those fall under.

Have you then any idea how numerous the legal violations that Microsoft has perpetrated are? Under current American copyright law, Microsoft could not have ever grown to exist as it does today at all (after all, it simultaneously screwed over three companies to create its own OS).

Apple charges a higher price because it is targeting an entirely different market than Microsoft. However, Microsoft's software isn't exactly cheap. To get the closest equivalent to OS X from MS, you're gonna have to shell out about $350 and all of its Office products are overpriced. $150 for even the simple Home & Student version and up to $700 for the Ultimate version which includes several applications that Adobe and others have far superior alternatives to.

And let's not even begin to talk about how far you have to drag Microsoft before it will license out yet another of its proprietary formats (it almost always requires a governmental authority).

If you think that Apple is the prototypical "big bad wolf," then you're quite naive to say the least.
post #273 of 321
I know. LOL. The BSOD van be a pain to solve, especially if fir some reason you are able to boot to last known working config then that corrupts. Windows writes over the last known config once you see the splash screen.

The really need to come up with a way to get into windows no matter what. Windows 7 seem to be this way which is good. While I am a mac user 99.9% now, in all fairness, if someone builds a machine that is certified for windows, unless you have bad memory, the BSOD will rarely happen. Win 7 has some nice things but it's the little missing things from OSX that makes me crazy. Eg, windows 7 fast search but it should remember what you searched for last. You should not have to retype it every time. For other things like expose, you can download programs that so this. I really hope windows 7 has a lot of the same features of mac osx, even if copied, another eg, auto PDF support -ala preview, and not because I need to see windows grow (would rather see appple grow yet lower their prices, release mid range headless mac pro), but for those times where I have no choice but to run windows.

Honestly, I hope that matt has a great win 7 release and it affects apple, as there really needs to be another option that is small, semi portable, has PCI card slots and 4/8 cores. I think it COULD happen once the 16 cores become mainstream. Then make the 8 fire i7 ( rumored to run FPU aka audio/video plugins faster than xeon) at a lower price without affecting Apples perceived high end branding. Picture a mac pro cut in half. I know it would be very successful.

Peace

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I appeciate the offer, but I took care if it.

I haw a rule with family ad friends. I'm mot
rethan happy to assist them with their current Windows PC but if there next one is not a Mac I won't assist them anymore. I have spent too much time doing charity work on Windows.
post #274 of 321
Boooooring!
post #275 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajectory View Post

Boooooring!

It certainly was until I got to this stirring commentary.
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post #276 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

The effectiveness of Apple's ads has already been proven. They're quite brilliant. Several of them have won awards over the years, and if the tech world's Odd Couple isn't memorable, I don't know what is. The I'm A Mac ads are anything but forgettable. And they employ some very subtle and effective techniques. Part of the advantage is that they play on the public consciousness - what we already know, and have known for years, about Windows and generic PCs.

Working in marketing at one time, and promotions
A&R (any good songwriters/ bands out there, LOL), I would have to agree. The ads are brilliant. You would think with all the cash matt has that they could come up with really good ads as well as os, something along the lines if windows mobile 6.5, very mac like, on the PC instead of windows 7 would be great as while I still prefer macs, I would like to see apple panic so they would eventually release netbook and mid range tower.

That said, with all the ads now from msft, if they do have great features unknown that rock, perhaps msft are getting ready for some huge media blitz. Makes sense. Get people attention now, keep doing it, then boom, apple has some real competition. Right now Apple stands alone. Except fir price which apple doesn't cater to anyway, they are unmatched for those will spwnd the money.
post #277 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

I don't know how you prove the effectiveness of ad campaigns but even so I think it's obvious that Apple has been working hard to build a positive corporate image in the minds of consumers over the long haul. This is where I question Microsoft's approach. Maybe I need to study Microsoft's ads more closely but from what I've seen they seem to begging consumers to lower their expectations. This doesn't strike me as a long-run strategy. But then very little of what Microsoft does seems to follow a strategy.

If I were the vp of marketing and promotions, I would hire Sony Acid/Vegas and pixelmator/Adobe employees and create a iLife suite. Honestly, I don't know why this isn't part of thief plan. Then buy Google. LOL.
post #278 of 321
Hmm I'm not sure as msft doesn't have a suite similar to iLife, see previous post. What they do have, and should build on it's strengths, is the media player. Since itune rentals and apple tv exist, we'll never see the mac and iPhone live up to it's full potential. Msft has a great tv tuner dvr cable/sattelite dlingbix DVR feature and they should play up to that as well as gaming, being able to choose high end graphic cards. This would be something Apple really couldn't respond to. IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrochester View Post

How can you say that with a straight face?! That's *exactly* the approach Apple takes! Microsoft plays on Apple's negative, which is the high price and very limited choice, and Apple plays on Microsoft's negative, which is viruses and usability. I think it's fair to say that both ad campaigns are as bad as each other - they're like a pair of monkeys flinging poo at each other.



I think you've got that backwards. They're not asking you to lower your expectations, they're saying that your expectations can be met and exceeded, for less money, by buying a PC. Part of it is to do with the extra specs you get for your money, and part of it is to do with the fact that the vast vast majority of users can do everything the Mac can do, just as quickly and efficiently, on a PC, and not have to waste a lot of extra money in the process.
post #279 of 321
The "fake Lauren" exposed in the first MS laptop hunter ad is just an example of how inherently fake that entire ad campaign is. They try to portray average everyday consumers shopping for a computer, yet the ads themselves are overly wordy and loaded with geek speak. I mean, an average consumer is not going to drop in at Best Buy and start rattling off a technobabble laundry list of gigahertz, gigs of RAM, gigs of hard drive space, etc. Like the Mojave Experiment ads, MS seems like they're trying to gin up a grassroots image for themselves, yet the ads can barely hide the astroturfing.

The latest Apple ads are very effective because they don't get into specs and technobabble. Rather, they remind people who use PCs at work why they hate 'em, and they do it with a sense of humor.
post #280 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

The Macintosh was never created as the computer for everyone. It was more like the computer for everyone who was willing to pay a premium.

Frankly I like that Macs come with a premium though it cuts both ways and sometimes even I get frustrated but the reality is I like a lot of things that Apple does.


I like that they don't succomb to putting 50 different logos on their computers. I think I can find out that an Apple TV has a HDMI port without having the sticker on the front.

I like that Apple doesn't install much nagware ..in fact I've never had my mac say "your trial period is up ...give us money if you wish to continue" Desktops for sale suck. Even with iPhoto photobooks or printing supplies its there as an options but you aren't harassed about it.

I like that Apple has the balls to move forward.

Getting rid of floppies
Moving to USB
Moving to Displayport
Supporting digital display output (DVI)


How long did it take PC vendors to get rid of parallel ports for chrissake?

Sorry. Apple doesn't ship 17" laptops with GMA graphics. They don't ship 4 pin non-powered Firewire. They don't add card readers to their computers so that you can save $15 on that cheapo Wal Mart reader.

What they do is make elegant computers that are highly functional to the skilled computer user. They made Unix accessible and attractive.

So I don't give damn if a PC user doesn't understand their lineup or doesn't recognize the beautiful and sturdy unibody casing or understand Apple's philosophy. Chances are you're simply not a Apple customer and more better suited to a PC anyways.

If you don't give a damn why did you post. All you can really say about windows is that they may crash oh and the viruses, but hey when I bought the Benz they told me BEWARE of car jackers, guess I should "PAY A PREMIUM" and buy a HUGO, no one is bothering to car jack those. I mean MACs don't have spyware and viruses NOT because they are better, but because the creators "don't bother" Like buying a HUGO, car jacker don't bother.

As far as being not for everyone so true, I mean an iPhone is around $500 (8gb) and it does not even have Bluetooth A2DP. Yeah in 2009 I want to be connested to my phone with WIRED headphones, WTF? So yeah not for every one. A $500 phone that does not copy paste, true, NOT FOR EVERYONE. I mean pleanty of free phones have this but I should pay Apple "A PREMIUM" not to have it. And don't let me forget the FIXED focus camer with no flash, no zoom, not AUTO and/or Manual focus, the best compliment I can give the phone is that it's slim. I can get a FREE Pantec phone from AT&T that has all these missing features, that you pay a PREMIUM for, and you call that MOVING FORWARD. (wired headphones, yeah that's the wave of the future) MAC OS the OS hackers don't even give the time of day. A replacement USB cable for the iPhone $20, LMAO for a USB cable are you crazy. Hey I bet all you MAC fans buy MONSTER HDMI cables too, cause the digital picture looks better with those Monster cables. LOL, that a whole different leson there.

Also quit comparing $2000 MAC to $800 PC, compare $2000 MAC to $2000 PC and the playing field is more even. Yes MAC OS boots faster, IT DOES LESS. Oh and since you are so bothers by the logos, I guess you hate your TV's and DVD players cause any NEW one is PLASTERED with those same labels (yeah a blueray palyer has a HDMI label on the front) guess you couldn't figure it out. As for the card reader, I'm HAPPY the PC makers decided to save me $15 buck and to make it cleaner than having to dig and find and remember to pack some cheesey card reader, but I guess that's why you "PAY A PREMIUM" 17" with low graphics = affordability, who argues that?

Yes it took PC makers to get rid of some legacy components, but only cause when they tried it early people were upset that they had to go buy a new printer cause they decided to take away the parallel port. Something I guess MAC does not cosider but I pay a "PREMIUM" for. So now I have to toss my perfectly good working printer and get a new one. Thanks MAC.

I use my computer for more than just email and internet, and I'm not a DJ. So I need a computer that can adjust without me buying 100 different add-ons. From what I see Apple likes to make you buy extras,so it's a LIMITED OS wich requires you to buy more to get it to work the way you want, that's why you "PAY A PREMIUM" so you can PAY MORE PREMIUMS.

And when did MAC stop crashing? I had one crash on me in the Apple store 2 weeks ago. But I guess to MAC fans if it does not Blue Screen then it's not a crash. But when it locks up and does not respond, that's the Apple Reboot Reminder.
You cannot even truely close an app on the iPhone, you think you do but it is running in the background. Have too many open and you will get the message, "phone running low on memory please reboot. It's a messaage something like that, hmmmm does that count as a crash?

Oh well buy what you want but bottom line, MACs are more LIMITED than PC's. Can I get a simple yes that's true without someone saying oh a PC crashes and they get viruses, REALLY, is this your only defense? MAC, Pay a Premium, get less.


NOTE: DVI satnds for Digital Video Input not Digital Display Output that would be "DDO" but spoken like a true MAC user.
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