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iPhone luring more customers to AT&T than ever - report - Page 2

post #41 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep View Post

i was only offering a olive branch to you .

nothing else .

OK. But I am not sure why one was needed......
post #42 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

I'm no expert, but I was under the impression that Verizon wireless was operationally separate from Verizon the company that owns FIOS. I don't believe the FIOS investments will benefit VZW.

Operationally --- the future business model is quad bundling, so FIOS investments will benefit the wireless side as well.
post #43 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by iWork View Post

There is no "conversion" of spectrum. The 700MHz spectrum will be used for LTE.

Verizon is quickly pursuing LTE and the quality, coverage, and date of availability will surpass AT&T by 1-2 years. .

In reading this thread, I decided to do a little exploring and the first article I came across:
http://gizmodo.com/5155882/verizon-l...launch-in-2010

It is a short article and I realized that being a Verizon subscriber will have more potential benefits starting in 2010, not only in reality but maybe with the iPhone eventually having a piece of the pie in the USA.

Verizon is launching their commercial LTE network in 2010. They are testing the new 700MHZ in the US and abroad which will be the standard worldwide for 4G meaning compatibility for use here and everywhere. They just released their technical standards for it so hardware manufacturers can start testing their products. They will be adopting this LTE standard very quickly in an effort to replace their 3G and have 4G coverage everywhere instead. They will keep their 2G CDMA because of its reliability and I am guessing that there are customers that don't care about switching or needing 4G. I am getting all these facts from a quick google search.

Now I can't believe that Apple is not hesitating to at least start testing the 4G standard for use in the iPhone and be prepared to use it if and as needed. Ok, they may use it as a power bargaining chip with AT&T when the AT&T contract extension talks really get underway. When the iPhone does go to Verizon eventually ( I am hoping sooner ), it seems that the LTE standard will be used. This will also allow worldwide coverage as with GSM and the numbers can only grow with LTE. China is creating this as their future standard already. And if Apple goes there...

Now, the waiting game(s) are here to see how it will all unfold! With all the interesting news, some of which I mentioned above, I am more hopeful every few months that my iPhone will be with Verizon!
post #44 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep View Post

VERIZON ceded the greatest phone invention to date . an invention that lets them charge 70 buck a month.

AT&T jumped at the chance to work with steve jobs , and quickly agreed to every thing apple wanted . Verizon never got a second chance. They had by mistake insulted steve jobs.

The greatest invention to date was Verizon Wireless $99 unlimited voice plan --- where AT&T, T-Mobile and Sprint had to copy it merely days after VZW's announcement. From the carrier's point of view, a unlimited voice plan that brings in $99 a month is the same as an iphone plan that brings in $90+ a month.

VZW had shown the world that you can still be alive after rejecting Apple's iphone (much like Harry Potter being famous for staying alive after battling with Voldemort) --- that's why all the carrier negotiations after AT&T were so difficult, that revenue sharing was rejected completely by carriers for the 3G iphone, that China still hasn't gotten any iphone distribution deal. It was Apple's biggest mistake not signing VZW in the first place.

Whatever Verizon is going to agree with Apple for a future iphone --- will be vastly different that the original deal that they rejected. Same thing with the rest of the world --- you think that Indian carrier who got suckered into that iphone exclusive deal is going to sign off the same deal when their sales is only a decimal point of what they were hoping for.
post #45 of 72
So...... Verizon did two things: they offered a $99 unlimited voice plan (a "great invention" that can be copied by changing a line on a price chart), and they didn't go bankrupt after passing on the iPhone, so now they're in the driver's seat re any negotiations with Apple?

Not really following that. Of course you can be in business without the iPhone. The question, is will the iPhone make you more money? AT&T says yes. If you want that money, you'll have to do it Apple's way, because Apple is doing fine as it is.

Also, a $99 unlimited voice plan isn't nearly as profitable for the carriers as data, for simple reason that most customers won't take it, whereas every customer you sell a smart phone to has to get an obligatory data plan.

When they start selling dumb phones with obligatory unlimited voice plans, you'll have a point.
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post #46 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

So...... Verizon did two things: they offered a $99 unlimited voice plan (a "great invention" that can be copied by changing a line on a price chart), and they didn't go bankrupt after passing on the iPhone, so now they're in the driver's seat re any negotiations with Apple?

Not really following that. Of course you can be in business without the iPhone. The question, is will the iPhone make you more money? AT&T says yes. If you want that money, you'll have to do it Apple's way, because Apple is doing fine as it is.

Also, a $99 unlimited voice plan isn't nearly as profitable for the carriers as data, for simple reason that most customers won't take it, whereas every customer you sell a smart phone to has to get an obligatory data plan.

When they start selling dumb phones with obligatory unlimited voice plans, you'll have a point.

Who said AT&T is making money on it --- the profit margin has taken a hit with the iphone subsidy. Meanwhile Verizon Wireless just announced that they are going to beat their already massive profit margin.

Most people don't buy expensive smartphone data plans either. The middle class rules ---Verizon makes more money than AT&T because AT&T takes the big spending geeks and low spending prepaid --- while Verizon takes the middle. I rather sell "boring" Honda Accords and Toyota Camrys --- that's how you make serious money.

Apple not signing with Verizon was the biggest mistake in their iphone business plan. Verizon would have kept Apple from making several big mistakes in their original 2G iphone launch --- $600 price tag, revenue sharing... Just imagine Verizon shooting down these idiotic ideas in the first place --- you would have seen the first generation iphone in 80 countries (instead of 4), a carrier-subsidized price, and no revenue sharing.
post #47 of 72
Sigh. As has been endlessly explained, there was little chance Apple was ever going to make a deal with Verizon, because Verizon is militant about controlling the customer experience. If Apple had sold the iPhone through Verizon, it wouldn't have been the iPhone as we know it, and who knows if it even would have been successful.

AT&T doesn't seem to have any problem with the profit structure of carrying the iPhone. As the article this thread is about makes clear, it's bringing in customers, and they're eager to extend their exclusivity deal. If the iPhone actually hurt their profits, why in the world would that be?

As far as Verizon making more money off the "middle class" or whatever, that's an interesting theory but I doubt you have any figures to back it up.

Smart phone are the fastest growing segment of the cell phone market. In the US, at least, every smart phone sold comes with a obligatory data plan. Ergo, the carriers would be fools if they weren't doing everything in their power to sell as many smart phones as possible.
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post #48 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

Who said AT&T is making money on it --- the profit margin has taken a hit with the iphone subsidy. Meanwhile Verizon Wireless just announced that they are going to beat their already massive profit margin.

Most people don't buy expensive smartphone data plans either. The middle class rules ---Verizon makes more money than AT&T because AT&T takes the big spending geeks and low spending prepaid --- while Verizon takes the middle. I rather sell "boring" Honda Accords and Toyota Camrys --- that's how you make serious money.

Apple not signing with Verizon was the biggest mistake in their iphone business plan. Verizon would have kept Apple from making several big mistakes in their original 2G iphone launch --- $600 price tag, revenue sharing... Just imagine Verizon shooting down these idiotic ideas in the first place --- you would have seen the first generation iphone in 80 countries (instead of 4), a carrier-subsidized price, and no revenue sharing.

AT&T may not make money on the deal, but Apple does. I am pretty sure that the same model does not work outside US, though.

Also, AT&T seems happy with the deal despite the revenue sharing. This is because of the way the mobile industry works. Usually, you invest money to get new subscribers. The assumption is that as long as the service quality is acceptable, most of the customers will not switch. But because the same applies to the competition, in a more or less saturated market you need to do something to make the customers switch. This explains why the exclusive deals in most countries are with the underdog carrier: they are more flexible and willing to invest.
post #49 of 72
"dropped calls"?

This should in all probability be an incoming call that they don't charge you for...

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People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #50 of 72
"ChangeWave notes countering reports of Verizon possibly landing phone-like devices of its own"

Wow, actual phone-like devices! Who would have thought it?
post #51 of 72
i really don't care about the carrier its the iphone i want and am loyal to

as far as apple, its about what makes the most financial sense

where does iphone advance more --- under att or verizon, --verizon has a history of locking down phone capability. or does it matter.

i want the best iphone available thats dependent on apple not the carrier
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post #52 of 72
AT&T reaps the rewards while Apple gets boxed into a hole.
post #53 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

I'm no expert, but I was under the impression that Verizon wireless was operationally separate from Verizon the company that owns FIOS. I don't believe the FIOS investments will benefit VZW.

It is. VW is a joint venture of Verizon Communications (55%) and Vodafone (45%) with both wanting to buy the other one out.
post #54 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

AT&T reaps the rewards while Apple gets boxed into a hole.

Apple chose the hole. Apple and AT&T are both making lots money. The only party that is at a disadvantage is the consumer who has to deal with the confined network coverage and very rare 3G data coverage (most of the network is still 2G).
post #55 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

Apple chose the hole. Apple and AT&T are both making lots money. The only party that is at a disadvantage is the consumer who has to deal with the confined network coverage and very rare 3G data coverage (most of the network is still 2G).

Well Apple could be making more with iPhone in US.
post #56 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Well Apple could be making more with iPhone in US.

If they could, they would.

You are so kind to be thinking of Apple's shareholders' welfare.
post #57 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Well Apple could be making more with iPhone in US.

And around we go
post #58 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Well Apple could be making more with iPhone in US.

They could be making more on a lot of things, but they chose the easiest way to be assured good profits. Ironically, with all the free thinking of the engineering departments, Apple can be very conservative and risk adverse on the business side.
post #59 of 72
Face it Verizon customers are like Lauren in the M$ ads, "they are not cool enough us an iPhone"
post #60 of 72
Personally, I would switch back to Verizon in a heartbeat if they carried the iPhone. Verizon has always had lousy phones (largely because manufacturers gave lower priority to producing CDMA phones), but high quality service, at least for phone service. I never really used my Verizon phones much on the web because the experience was so bad.

Frankly, I never realized how good the Verizon service was until I switched to AT&T in order to use the iPhone. A dropped call on Verizon was a rarity - I'd guess less than 1% of calls were dropped or unable to be completed. I'd say at least 50% of my AT&T calls are dropped or unable to be completed. And I can't get a consistent signal in my apartment unless I move next to an open window. With Verizon there was no issue. The weird thing about the iPhone (and I can't tell whether it's a phone or AT&T issue) is that sitting in exactly the same spot, one second there's five bars and the next second there's no service.

When I'm in a busy area of the city, while the phone reads 3G, web access is incredibly slow. When I move to a more remote area of the city, 3G access is usually pretty good. According to the AT&T service charts, all of New York City has 3G service. But at Battery Park City for example, I get no 3G service.
post #61 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

Personally, I would switch back to Verizon in a heartbeat if they carried the iPhone. Verizon has always had lousy phones (largely because manufacturers gave lower priority to producing CDMA phones), but high quality service, at least for phone service. I never really used my Verizon phones much on the web because the experience was so bad.

Frankly, I never realized how good the Verizon service was until I switched to AT&T in order to use the iPhone. A dropped call on Verizon was a rarity - I'd guess less than 1% of calls were dropped or unable to be completed. I'd say at least 50% of my AT&T calls are dropped or unable to be completed. And I can't get a consistent signal in my apartment unless I move next to an open window. With Verizon there was no issue. The weird thing about the iPhone (and I can't tell whether it's a phone or AT&T issue) is that sitting in exactly the same spot, one second there's five bars and the next second there's no service.

When I'm in a busy area of the city, while the phone reads 3G, web access is incredibly slow. When I move to a more remote area of the city, 3G access is usually pretty good. According to the AT&T service charts, all of New York City has 3G service. But at Battery Park City for example, I get no 3G service.

While my experience with Verizon's network is similar to yours (in the DC area), their customer service sucked. We still use them for their FIOS service (and my wife still has a VZ phone), but for the first six months we had their FIOS service, (and all three services on one bill) they insisted on billing us for one additional box - even after "fixing" it each month!

I can't count how many times they have "mistakenly" billed us an additional penny or two - I'd like to see how much that nets them when a few million customers fail to complain and just pay that extra penny!

That said, ATT's network in the DC/Maryland area has improved 100% since last summer. I used to get dropped calls daily - the last one was months ago. Areas that used to be dead to 3G are now live, and I can now make calls inside Safeway that I could not when I first bought it. My phone hasn't reverted to Edge since last year, at least in this metro area.

An hour north in Frederick county is another story.
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post #62 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwahrens View Post

While my experience with Verizon's network is similar to yours (in the DC area), their customer service sucked. We still use them for their FIOS service (and my wife still has a VZ phone), but for the first six months we had their FIOS service, (and all three services on one bill) they insisted on billing us for one additional box - even after "fixing" it each month!

I can't count how many times they have "mistakenly" billed us an additional penny or two - I'd like to see how much that nets them when a few million customers fail to complain and just pay that extra penny!

This is standard operating procedure for Verizon

http://www22.verizon.com/Residential...bill/95880.htm

http://www.tampabay.com/features/con...icle972068.ece

http://verizonmath.blogspot.com/

The verizon math one is good since they obviously have no clue that their systems is billing people at the wrong rate and argue with the guy their math was correct.

http://verizonmath.blogspot.com/2007...-customer.html

Personally I can deal with some technical glitches since I know what it takes to make technology work, however, the quickest way to have me all over your case is messing with my money, or attempting to charge me for something I never got or wanted in the first place.

You may not like AT&T or some other companies services, but you should be more worried about companies who have track record of messing with your money. I can tell you I only give business to companies that when I have a problem do not argue with me about giving back my money.
post #63 of 72
Oh this is the icing on the cake...

PA and FCC has file numerous complaints against Verizon for their billing practices and it unclear Version has fix them. It is those low cost programmer they hire outside the US who were never educated on basic math I guess is the issue.

http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/public/comm...on/8694.htm#II

I wonder if those Verizon fan boys check their bills each month... probably not since money is not important to them.
post #64 of 72
Quote:
Personally I can deal with some technical glitches since I know what it takes to make technology work, however, the quickest way to have me all over your case is messing with my money, or attempting to charge me for something I never got or wanted in the first place.

I concur. Furthermore I'd really like to see a demographic / usage sampling of those customers who were "very satisfied" with Verizon service. I had Verizon service for years and years. And I was quite satisfied with it -- for what I used of it, which was pretty much voice and SMS only.

I have switched to AT&T in order to get an iPhone. During the transition I noticed a couple of things. First of all, I think Verizon seems to target specifically towards those customers who use their mobile devices mostly AS A PHONE, not as a data / music / internet device. Their data services (from what I could tell of them) mostly sucked. Their web service was crappy, and they tend to cripple their devices to only use some horrible brand of proprietary shovelware they stick on there. If you don't believe me, try using their .mp3 service. I did, once, and never tried it again. When I had Verizon, I only ever used basic cheap phones, and I used them for voice / txt messaging ONLY. And they are extremely good for voice/SMS and this alone. Their coverage is truly unbeatable, so long as all you want to do is talk or txt. They don't really do the "smartphone" thing all that well is my impression.

The company I work for also uses Verizon (mfg. industry). I've noticed this same pattern / trend of usage in all my colleagues. They use the phones for voice/SMS only.

I do not have a company mobile so when my Verizon contract lapsed in October, I did a lot of research. Then I started dating a guy with an iPhone, got a chance to actually hold/handle/use one as it was supposed to be used, and within a week I was sold. I got rid of my Verizon RAZR (and I have used and loved Motorola devices my entire adult life) and sprung for my own iPhone.

The difference is astonishing. It has entirely changed the way I use my mobile device. I only used seven minutes of talk time on my bill last month (I do tend to SMS a fair bit, wish AT&T had a little better package rates but oh, well). However, my data use was HUGE. The unlimited dataplan is really where this thing shines. People who think this is "just a cell phone" or think they can compare apples to apples (heh) by showing bare statistics of Verizon vs. AT&T are missing the point. the iPhone is NOT a phone. It's a small handheld computer. There's a vast difference. Sure ok people complain about dropping from 3G to EDGE but even EDGE is far faster than the old x86 PCs I used to run dialup on (god does anyone here even remember CompuServe? :P) I've had exactly one call drop in six months, and it seems AT&T is really working to build up their network reliability -- something Verizon has been doing for almost a decade now. Give them time to connect up the infrastructure and then get back to me in 18 months and let's see how the coverage issue blends.

My boss HATES his (Verizon) blackberry and has had nothing but trouble with it. Last week while on business travel we both wound up using my iPhone for all sorts of stuff like finding the hotel, places to eat, taxi service, doing conversions, or just pulling up an article in an industry mag that featured our company to show the site president at dinner. He even passed some stuff through my webmail to my iPhone so we could access them because his BB wasn't synching properly.

So long digression but I think the whole "customer satisfaction" statistic leaves out some key stuff there. AT&T has been way more helpful in the realm of customer service and responsiveness when I emailed them or wanted information. Verizon was a nightmare to deal with in that regard. They're only good so long as you pay your monthly bill and just use your phone to talk on.
post #65 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow View Post

This explains why the exclusive deals in most countries are with the underdog carrier: they are more flexible and willing to invest.

Except that AT&T was the largest US carrier when they signed the iphone deal.

As for willingness to invest --- it's what items to invest. AT&T is spending billions on subsidizing the iphone. Verizon is spending billions on upgrading their networks. An the average American consumer has spoken --- they prefer their carrier to spending the money on network improvements.
post #66 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

As the article this thread is about makes clear, it's bringing in customers, and they're eager to extend their exclusivity deal.

Except that the article's PR "study" is absolutely wrong --- their "publicity" surveys quarter after quarter NEVER matches with ACTUAL subscriber growth as listed in the SEC filings of AT&T and Verizon.

The survey is on AT&T Wireless (not AT&T Wireless and Tracfone) --- so if you take out Tracfone's net subscriber additions quarter after quarter from AT&T's SEC filings --- AT&T Wireless has NEVER beaten Verizon Wireless in net subscriber growth since the iphone was launched. Verizon Wireless doesn't have much meaningful wholesale MVNO subscriber base.

Notice that the real churn numbers from AT&T's and Verizon's SEC filings --- AT&T has never beaten Verizon in churn numbers either. So another item that this PR-seeking survey study cannot reconcile their own survey data quarter after quarter with ACTUAL SEC filing data.
post #67 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

Except that the article's PR "study" is absolutely wrong --- their "publicity" surveys quarter after quarter NEVER matches with ACTUAL subscriber growth as listed in the SEC filings of AT&T and Verizon.

The survey is on AT&T Wireless (not AT&T Wireless and Tracfone) --- so if you take out Tracfone's net subscriber additions quarter after quarter from AT&T's SEC filings --- AT&T Wireless has NEVER beaten Verizon Wireless in net subscriber growth since the iphone was launched. Verizon Wireless doesn't have much meaningful wholesale MVNO subscriber base.

Notice that the real churn numbers from AT&T's and Verizon's SEC filings --- AT&T has never beaten Verizon in churn numbers either. So another item that this PR-seeking survey study cannot reconcile their own survey data quarter after quarter with ACTUAL SEC filing data.

I will assume your correct, since I am not about to go dig through both companies 10Ks to see what they are reporting in the way of new of lost subscribers.

You are correct surveys are exactly wrong, anyone who knows anything about how they are done and statistics behind them knows one thing for sure they will be wrong. I will not go into all the assumption that are made when analyzing survey data but at most it can tell is a trend, and I would say from this data is Verizon is trending down and At&T is trending up from people perception, now can you correlate that to the iphone effect, you guess is as good as the people running the survey.
post #68 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

I will assume your correct, since I am not about to go dig through both companies 10Ks to see what they are reporting in the way of new of lost subscribers.

You are correct surveys are exactly wrong, anyone who knows anything about how they are done and statistics behind them knows one thing for sure they will be wrong. I will not go into all the assumption that are made when analyzing survey data but at most it can tell is a trend, and I would say from this data is Verizon is trending down and At&T is trending up from people perception, now can you correlate that to the iphone effect, you guess is as good as the people running the survey.

That's because the sampling data is skew --- ChangeWave only gets its data from its own "members".

Quote:
"The ChangeWave Alliance Research Network is a group of 20,000 highly qualified business, technology and medical professionals -- as well as early adopter consumers -- who work in leading companies of select industries. ChangeWave surveys its network members weekly on a range of business and consumer topics, and converts the information into a series of proprietary quantitative and qualitative reports."
post #69 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Having the ability to do something doesnt mean you should do it.

You wonder why Apple cant make a CDMA-based iPhone, so Ill ask you a silly question, Why cant Apple make GSM-based iPhone? Of course, they do make one, but they only sell it to a single carrier in every country that has laws that allow them to. They now have 88 countries on board, at least 3 more coming this summer which have a single carrier tied to them, and yet most of these countries are completely GSM-based. Its obvious that Apples plans are more involved than just not wanting to make a CDMA-based iPhone, otherwise all these countries will multiple GSM-based carriers would all be selling the iPhone but they arent.

And you don't think that  could make as much money from being on all carriers instead of getting better deals with one? The reason the iPod became so successful and dominant in terms of market share is because it was made for not only Macs but Windows as well. As many other smartphones are beginning to catch up to the iPhone in terms of technology and offering their OS on multiple carriers, the iPhone will be at a disadvantage being tied to one carrier. The main reason why most people don't use the iPhone is because of the carrier.

Now it may very well be that  does not extend it's contract with AT&T beyond next year, but it most likely will. Chances are that we will not see a multiple carrier iPhone in the US until AT&T until 2012.
post #70 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by str1f3 View Post

And you don't think that  could make as much money from being on all carriers instead of getting better deals with one? The reason the iPod became so successful and dominant in terms of market share is because it was made for not only Macs but Windows as well. As many other smartphones are beginning to catch up to the iPhone in terms of technology and offering their OS on multiple carriers, the iPhone will be at a disadvantage being tied to one carrier. The main reason why most people don't use the iPhone is because of the carrier.

Now it may very well be that  does not extend it's contract with AT&T beyond next year, but it most likely will. Chances are that we will not see a multiple carrier iPhone in the US until AT&T until 2012.


Apples competitive advantage has little to nothing to do with which service provider they may or may not be tied too.

It comes down to the ecosystem they developed around the products. People are buying iphones and ipod not because who is selling them or who services they are attached too. It is about all the extras you get with the iphone and how easy it is for the end user to increase the capability of their investments. if you just spend $100s to $1000's buying stuff to supplement your iphone/ipod purchase like docks and stereos and adapters and the list goes on why would you go out and buy another product which would require you to trash you previous investments.

The only time that will happen is someone come up with a product which is far superior to the current solution and putting aside those previous expenditures is not a factor any more.

No smartphone on the market today can touch the ecosystem that exists around Apple solution.
post #71 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

Except that AT&T was the largest US carrier when they signed the iphone deal.

As for willingness to invest --- it's what items to invest. AT&T is spending billions on subsidizing the iphone. Verizon is spending billions on upgrading their networks. An the average American consumer has spoken --- they prefer their carrier to spending the money on network improvements.

Too bad they can't do both.
post #72 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

That's why I very specifically said that "Apple signed most of those contracts knowing full well the popularity of the iPhone." The original USA contract is a different case, but once the original contract expired Apple was in the same position as in other countries. They knew exactly how popular their device was, and the contract will certainly reflect the opportunity that Apple knows it is giving up by not going with an open device.

People here apparently think that Apple would get the same amount of cash from ATT if they were not exclusive as they do now with exclusivity. They must think they're smarter than all the dummies who make the business decisions at Apple.

I can just see it - Steve Jobs walking around, bumping into walls and mumbling to himself. Poor idiot never figured out that if you have something which is hotly demanded, you can raise the price for it. Some of the really smart MBAs on this board should tell him!

Isn't the org. appl/att contract still in effect? If it works here, why change it elsewhere?

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