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Palm Pre syncs with iTunes on a Mac just like an iPhone

post #1 of 125
5/28/09 at 8:47am
Thread Starter 
Palm's upcoming Pre handset is again making headlines this week after it was discovered that early production units contain native support for syncing with Apple's iTunes software as if they were built by the iPhone maker itself.

Fortune notes that this isn't an entirely new revelation, given that it was mentioned back in January during the Consumer Electronics Show, but only recently has the tech media really clamped down on the matter.

"Plug a Pre into a Mac and it syncs, seamlessly, with Apple’s iTunes," the financial publication reports. "In fact, the iTunes Store treats the Pre just as it would an iPod or an iPhone with one exception: it can’t handle old copy-protected songs."

While there have been a handful of third party hacks that allow iTunes to recognize some of Palm's existing handsets, the Pre is believed to have such code built natively into its firmware. At issue is how Palm may be achieving this particular result and whether Apple will condone encroachment on its tightly controlled ecosystem by one of its rivals.

The development of the Pre, due to launch just days before the iPhone maker is expected to take the wraps off its latest line of handsets, has been spearheaded by a number of former Apple employees who are privy to the underpinnings of the company's technology. Among them is Palm president Jon Rubinstein, who spent years overseeing the development of iPods over in Cupertino.

Many industry watchers believe the Pre represents the greatest threat to the iPhone yet. It features similar touch-screen technology and an attractive new webOS that appears to take several design cues from Apple's iPhone software with some added bells and whistles to boot.

During a recent conference call, acting Apple chief executive Tim Cook vowed to vigorously defend against any competitor who treads on his company's intellectual property, but stopped short of calling out Palm by name.



"I'm not talking about any specific company.* I'm just making a general statement," he said.*"We think competition is good, it makes us better.* But we will not stand to have our IP ripped off.* We'll use whatever weapons we have at our disposal.* I don't know that I can be more clear than that."
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post #2 of 125
5/28/09 at 8:48am
this could be interesting....
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post #3 of 125
5/28/09 at 8:52am
Kew-el!
Looks like Palm is backing Apple into a corner- Damned if they do and damned if they don't.
Palm is clearly playing Apple's iTunes Windows hand. Brilliant!
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post #4 of 125
5/28/09 at 8:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

this could be interesting....

It should be cool. The only reason I have an iPod is because I have iTune purchased video content. If I could get rid of the DRM and still have the content, there would be no iPods, and for sure no iPhones in my house. Hell, I don't even put music on the iPod I have. I use my Nokia E75 as my music player via a BT Streaming headset.
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post #5 of 125
5/28/09 at 9:00am
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Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

It should be cool. The only reason I have an iPod is because I have iTune purchased video content. If I could get rid of the DRM and still have the content, there would be no iPods, and for sure no iPhones in my house. Hell, I don't even put music on the iPod I have. I use my Nokia E75 as my music player via a BT Streaming headset.

Right...but the Pre won't play the DRMed content you bought.

What will be interesting to see is how Palm achieves this. If the Pre just syncs with the iTunes Music folder, I don't see how Apple can stop that. If, however, it somehow shows up in iTunes' Source list, I would expect a lawsuit pronto.
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post #6 of 125
5/28/09 at 9:06am
So?

Apple can disable this if they like.

I also wish Pre users the best of luck in accessing App Store content and playing iTunes Store's feature-length movies and TV shows.
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post #7 of 125
5/28/09 at 9:06am
This was mentioned way back in January.
Implies Apple is aware of it.

My guess is OS 3.0 comes with next version of iTunes that stops Pre from achieving this.
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post #8 of 125
5/28/09 at 9:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Kew-el!
Looks like Palm is backing Apple into a corner- Damned if they do and damned if they don't.
Palm is clearly playing Apple's iTunes Windows hand. Brilliant!


You still do not get it, it is like buying tires that work on one car, yes they work and run well, but they do not fit on any other car but yours.

Of course apple could limit this access, but most likely they will not, since other plug-ins allow you to do the same thing for other players. What Apple offers that no one else does right now is a total seamless integration of their technology, It just works and other companies can make other elements of their technology work, but not as well as Apple.

I highly double palm is backing anyone into any corners.
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post #9 of 125
5/28/09 at 9:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

Right...but the Pre won't play the DRMed content you bought.

What will be interesting to see is how Palm achieves this. If the Pre just syncs with the iTunes Music folder, I don't see how Apple can stop that. If, however, it somehow shows up in iTunes' Source list, I would expect a lawsuit pronto.

Quote:
Originally Posted by striker_kk View Post

This was mentioned way back in January.
Implies Apple is aware of it.

My guess is OS 3.0 comes with next version of iTunes that stops Pre from achieving this.

When i first read about this I figured Palm would simply build an app to parse the iTunes Library XML file. The ability to jump on board the iTunes app itself seems like a very short lived option for Palm. Then again, Palm may be short lived, too.
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post #10 of 125
5/28/09 at 9:15am
> just like an iPhone

Wow, sterling praise indeed.

Actually I have finally found one feature on the Pre I like... they have a "reminders" feature that you can attach to someone in your Contacts, and the next time you get in touch with them (perhaps only on phone calls, who knows) it pops up the reminder. I think this is great, I'd use it all the time!

Cupertino, fire up your photocopiers!

Maury
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post #11 of 125
5/28/09 at 9:17am
(oops, didn't read the original well enough)
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post #12 of 125
5/28/09 at 9:17am
If the Pre gets legs or not, I wonder if Apple thinks Palm's IP is worth a buyout?
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post #13 of 125
5/28/09 at 9:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

When i first read about this, i thought there would be a Palm app for Windows/OSX that would just parse the iTunes Library XML file. The ability to jump on board the iTunes app itself seems like a very short lived option for Palm. Then again, Palm may be short lived, too.

Yeah,

Apple will release iTunes 8.2 with iPhone 3.0.

I doubt they'll allow this to go on for very long... or maybe they will... (bad press etc)
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post #14 of 125
5/28/09 at 9:22am
I'm all for competition in the mobile market....we all benefit....the Pre looks like a really nice device. The biggest problems for all other devices except for the iPhone are the following:

1. No great apps
2. Pathetic SDK
3. No 70/30 or similar split for developers.
4. Horrible App stores.

I have zero motivation to port my iPhone apps to the Pre or any other device for that matter. If these other mobile developers got a clue about creating all of the above listed items, you would see droves of iPhone developers porting apps...but they are all to busy trying to play "catch-up" with the new hardware.

People will get the Pre, much like the Storm and wonder, when are the 40,000 apps coming! Probably never. Sounds like a quick death for Pre if they want to truly compete with the iPhone. I was hoping Palm would have announced "Amazing SDK, Amazing App Store, Amazing Music/Video Store".....instead I hear....."Pre will sync with iTunes"...what an amazing let down.....LOL I want to shake hands with the President....LOL...I dont want to shake hands with a guy who shakes hands with the President.....get my drift?
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post #15 of 125
5/28/09 at 9:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

It should be cool. The only reason I have an iPod is because I have iTune purchased video content. If I could get rid of the DRM and still have the content, there would be no iPods, and for sure no iPhones in my house. Hell, I don't even put music on the iPod I have. I use my Nokia E75 as my music player via a BT Streaming headset.



Nokia with symbian is like a bad car with square tires, it could be bad, but is even worse.
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post #16 of 125
5/28/09 at 9:34am
Interesting, indeed. If I were Apple, I'd just let them go ahead.

Personally I agree with the WSJ:

http://247wallst.com/2009/04/15/twel...ill-disappear/, (...The launch of the “Pre” is a disaster in the making...)

and Sprint may not have much life left in it either. As for the Pre, the physical keyboard makes it unnecessary complicated. Same with the removable battery, I believe that Palm made a big mistake and focussed on the initial complaints of the iPhone. In the mean time, we know that Apple's on-screen keyboard as well as the non-removable battery was the result of a lot of thought and done very deliberately.
Once familiar with Apple's on-screen keyboard, typing is faster than on a physical keyboard and I for one have never had the need to replace the battery.

So let the Sprint customers connect to iTunes and buy songs. Once they see the App-store, they might regret their purchase of the Pre!

But interesting, yes!
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post #17 of 125
5/28/09 at 9:38am
If Apple stop this then shame on them. I for one welcome this. Apple should provide an API for all music player makers, so they can have the iTunes experience, just like the iPod. Apple should compete by making the best product, not by tying everyone else off from iTunes. It's sometimes nice to be liked too. That in itself brings business and improves your company image. Even the Apple haters would congratulate Apple on this one, which would be a clever move.

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post #18 of 125
5/28/09 at 9:50am
boygeniuereport had a review of the Pre this morning. summary is that it's nothing special.

i'll take an 8GB Iphone for $99 over the Pre after reading that review
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post #19 of 125
5/28/09 at 9:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

Right...but the Pre won't play the DRMed content you bought.

What will be interesting to see is how Palm achieves this. If the Pre just syncs with the iTunes Music folder, I don't see how Apple can stop that. If, however, it somehow shows up in iTunes' Source list, I would expect a lawsuit pronto.



the talk is that it shows in the source window.

and I don't know that Apple will actually do anything. after all, the Pre working natively with iTunes means the potential for more music sales. Apple might actually be keen on the idea. they still have the apps store as an exclusive.

also in regards to Tim's comments. I think that folks are taking it a step too far. it was said as the whole Psystar thing was heating up and it was likely about that as well as the Pre and other devices. a warning to folks that Apple is tired of being the target of suits for 'stealing' from other folks and would be going after those that commit the same offense against them. the lack of a suit by this point is a good sign that there's no reason for Apple to believe Palm stole from them so may the best man win.
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post #20 of 125
5/28/09 at 9:51am
This is great, but I'm sure I've heard about some Creative players natively interfacing with iTunes before. I doubt the Pre handles Apple Lossless files though.
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post #21 of 125
5/28/09 at 9:52am
with sclerosis
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post #22 of 125
5/28/09 at 9:53am
Apple have licensed/made available the SDK for iTunes for years, this isn't news.
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post #23 of 125
5/28/09 at 9:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundraBuggy View Post

I'm all for competition in the mobile market....we all benefit....the Pre looks like a really nice device. The biggest problems for all other devices except for the iPhone are the following:

1. No great apps
2. Pathetic SDK
3. No 70/30 or similar split for developers.
4. Horrible App stores.

I have zero motivation to port my iPhone apps to the Pre or any other device for that matter. If these other mobile developers got a clue about creating all of the above listed items, you would see droves of iPhone developers porting apps...but they are all to busy trying to play "catch-up" with the new hardware.

People will get the Pre, much like the Storm and wonder, when are the 40,000 apps coming! Probably never. Sounds like a quick death for Pre if they want to truly compete with the iPhone. I was hoping Palm would have announced "Amazing SDK, Amazing App Store, Amazing Music/Video Store".....instead I hear....."Pre will sync with iTunes"...what an amazing let down.....LOL I want to shake hands with the President....LOL...I dont want to shake hands with a guy who shakes hands with the President.....get my drift?

it is funny how so many companies with their armies of MBA's and engineering phd's just don't this simple fact. it's the appstore, stupid.

people might not use every app all the time, but if you're lost and almost out of gas then the Cheap Gas app is awesome. if you want coffee there is a starbucks locator app. there are a few kids apps like flash cards to teach your kid how to read and are great on long trips in the car. i have a 20 month old son and he loves The Wheels on the Bus and 2 flash cards apps on my wife's iPhone.
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post #24 of 125
5/28/09 at 9:54am
This is the first thing that came to mind. It would be the easy way for both companies to deal with the legalities. That may sound far fetched to some, even to me in a way but there is the issue of regulation. Apple has been under a lot of pressure, especially in Europe, to end DRM and to open up sales.

I'm not saying that Apple is real excited about this but they can turn it into a win win situation. ITunes could become more independant and potentially could have sale explode. From Apples standpoint they could soon be making iTunes sales to every music player/cell phone on the planet. It may not be the fee for all that the EU wants but could be lucrative for the companies that sign up with Apple.

Or maybe not. We ought to know within hours of Pres release. If Apple goes for an injunction then we know nothing was licensed. For Palm it is going to be pretty hard to say that no IP was stolen or missed used. By waiting until the last minute Apple can have dramatic economic impact on Palm. Wipe them out if you will.

The next few weeks will be interesting in Apple land.


Dave
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post #25 of 125
5/28/09 at 9:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

Right...but the Pre won't play the DRMed content you bought.

What will be interesting to see is how Palm achieves this. If the Pre just syncs with the iTunes Music folder, I don't see how Apple can stop that. If, however, it somehow shows up in iTunes' Source list, I would expect a lawsuit pronto.

Lots of non-iPod music players show up in the left-side Devices list (sometimes under the wrong game) and sync already--Apple's own doing. Apple doesn't seem to have been actively developing their 3rd-party device support (newer non-Apple players seem to work work, but only older players show the correct name) but neither have the removed it. Remember: iTunes existed before the iPod.

So the question is... sync what? If it's just music, that's already doable on various other devices.

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post #26 of 125
5/28/09 at 10:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundraBuggy View Post

The biggest problems for all other devices except for the iPhone are the following:

1. No great apps
2. Pathetic SDK
3. No 70/30 or similar split for developers.
4. Horrible App stores.

OK, I can't let that slide. Lets break those down shall we?

1) Someone's obviously never owned a Windows Mobile PDA. I had a Windows Mobile 2003 PDA (with a very tasty 3.8" screen I might add). I've used tons of great apps on that, including fully featured office apps and I installed ScummVM WITHOUT HACKING. The majority of apps on the iPhone app store have cheaper/free equivalents on Windows Mobile. Although, my PDA died a month or so ago, so I'm currently surviving on carrying a laptop around >_<
Palm, on the other hand, is a bit hit/miss. I've never had much fun with Palm devices as they always felt too "business only".

2) Again, I believe Windows Mobile has very good SDKs, the latest SDK for Windows Mobile 6.1 included emulators for all variants of the OS, and they don't charge for it.
I've never heard of an SDK for Palm, so I can't comment here.

3) I'll agree here. Developers don't get 70/30 split with the device manufacturers. Instead developers get 100%. Oh dear, how can developers cope with such a small amount -_-

4) And you care about this why? WM and Palm apps are downloaded and installed by the user from across the internet after a quick trip to your search engine of choice. App stores generally complicate matters, especially for the developers who have to pay to get a listing on said app store when the app is free.

SO, lets fix your post shall we.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tundraBuggy View Post

The biggest problems for Palm devices are the following:

1. No great apps
2. Pathetic SDK
3. No 70/30 or similar split for developers.
4. Horrible App stores.

(in other news, when I was looking for a replacement for my broken PDA, i asked around about Palm and I was told they went bust so the announcement of the Pre was a bit of a surprise!)
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post #27 of 125
5/28/09 at 10:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

You still do not get it, it is like buying tires that work on one car, yes they work and run well, but they do not fit on any other car but yours.

Of course apple could limit this access, but most likely they will not, since other plug-ins allow you to do the same thing for other players. What Apple offers that no one else does right now is a total seamless integration of their technology, It just works and other companies can make other elements of their technology work, but not as well as Apple.

I highly double palm is backing anyone into any corners.

every topic has the troll bickering with a small group . you guys are feeding a troll
you guys are fighting over stupid point's

you guys have just hi jacked another topic .

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post #28 of 125
5/28/09 at 10:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by knightlie View Post

Apple have licensed/made available the SDK for iTunes for years, this isn't news.

Yeah, this is what I was wondering about..... what's the news here...
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post #29 of 125
5/28/09 at 10:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by knightlie View Post

Apple have licensed/made available the SDK for iTunes for years, this isn't news.

I was not aware that Apple supported this feature for 3rd-party devices. What exactly does the iTunes software development kit do?
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post #30 of 125
5/28/09 at 10:10am
The iTunes device plug-in SDK has been available since 2002 in fact....
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post #31 of 125
5/28/09 at 10:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I was not aware that Apple supported this feature for 3rd-party devices. What exactly does the iTunes software development kit do?

It lets you add native iTunes syncing for hardware devices. Many device plugins for older Creative players etc... are even bundled in the install of the current version.

These are the bundled plugins:
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2172

Digital Players\tManufacturer\tConnection
iPod\tApple\tFireWire / USB
Nomad II\tCreative Labs\tUSB
Nomad II MG\tCreative Labs\tUSB
Nomad II c\tCreative Labs\tUSB
Nomad Jukebox\tCreative Labs\tUSB
Nomad Jukebox 20GB\tCreative Labs\tUSB
Nomad Jukebox C\tCreative Labs\tUSB
Novad MuVo\tCreative Labs\tUSB
Rio One\tSONICBlue/S3\tUSB
Rio 500\tSONICBlue/S3\tUSB
Rio 600\tSONICBlue/S3\tUSB
Rio 800\tSONICBlue/S3\tUSB
Rio 900\tSONICBlue/S3\tUSB
Rio S10\tSONICBlue/S3\tUSB
Rio S11\tSONICBlue/S3\tUSB
Rio S30S\tSONICBlue/S3\tUSB
Rio S35S\tSONICBlue/S3\tUSB
Rio S50\tSONICBlue/S3\tUSB
Rio Chiba\tSONICBlue/S3\tUSB
Rio Fuse\tSONICBlue/S3\tUSB
Rio Cali\tSONICBlue/S3\tUSB
psa]play 60\tNike\tUSB
psa]play 120\tNike\tUSB
SoundSpace 2\tNakamichi\tUSB
CD MP3 Players\tManufacturer
RioVolt SP250\tSONICBlue/S3
RioVolt SP100\tSONICBlue/S3
RioVolt SP90\tSONICBlue/S3
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post #32 of 125
5/28/09 at 10:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

If Apple stop this then shame on them. I for one welcome this. Apple should provide an API for all music player makers, so they can have the iTunes experience, just like the iPod. Apple should compete by making the best product, not by tying everyone else off from iTunes. It's sometimes nice to be liked too. That in itself brings business and improves your company image. Even the Apple haters would congratulate Apple on this one, which would be a clever move.

I agree but often have trouble seeing every side of things. On the one hand it would be great for Apple's sales, and for other hardware manufacturers to cash in on iTunes. But then Apple would be 'responsible' for the experience on those devices too ... the majority of people aren't too smart and might think it's iTunes' fault when something goes wrong, therefore tarnishing Apple's image. Apple would have to provide some kind of 'screening' process to all hardware (much like apps on the app store) and then allow these devices access, I imagine.

All more trouble for Apple, and I don't know how much they'd really make off it considering sales of iPods may then drop with the new competition.

Sounds unlikely to me. Anyone want to add/refute?

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by knightlie View Post

Apple have licensed/made available the SDK for iTunes for years, this isn't news.

Quote:
Originally Posted by retroneo View Post

It lets you add native iTunes syncing for hardware devices. Many device plugins for older Creative players etc... are even bundled in the install of the current version.

But you're talking about syncing for calendars, contacts etc no? Surely not music & iTS content?

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post #33 of 125
5/28/09 at 10:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Palm's upcoming Pre handset is again making headlines this week after it was discovered that early production units contain native support for syncing with Apple's iTunes software as if they were built by the iPhone maker itself.

I am sure Apple is going to just sit there and let Palm sync the Pre to the iTunes store without their blessing, right after hell freezes over.

I am guessing that the next iTunes update after the release of the Pre will disable it. If Palm wants their handsets to access the iTunes Store, they should arrange to do so with Apple. By trying to sneak their way onto it, they aren't doing their customers or themselves any favors. Apple is under no obligation to let the Pre or any other non Apple device interface with the Apple store. If they chose to do so, I am sure they would require Palm to license the rights to connect their devices to the iTunes store as is their right. Palm would do the same in Apple's place.

This is just a lame stunt to try to make Apple look bad. It won't work, it will just make Palm look desperate.
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post #34 of 125
5/28/09 at 10:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post

Lots of non-iPod music players show up in the left-side Devices list (sometimes under the wrong game) and sync already--Apple's own doing. Apple doesn't seem to have been actively developing their 3rd-party device support (newer non-Apple players seem to work work, but only older players show the correct name) but neither have the removed it. Remember: iTunes existed before the iPod.

So the question is... sync what? If it's just music, that's already doable on various other devices.

Correct, iTunes is derived from C&G's Soundjam. The third party device support is a product of its early life as third party software.

Little bit of trivia: Soundjam was Apple's second choice. They first choice was a player called Audion, but the developer was already in talks with AOL. Apple bought Soundjam, brought it out as iTunes in 2001, and Audion was discontinued in 2004.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandro View Post

I am sure Apple is going to just sit there and let Palm sync the Pre to the iTunes store without their blessing, right after hell freezes over.

Apple may be best to let this one slide. There's been speculation that Palm is trying to bait Apple into an anti-trust suit over iTunes.
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post #35 of 125
5/28/09 at 10:20am
Well, that means its not an issue for company to make it's device sync with iTunes?
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post #36 of 125
5/28/09 at 10:21am
.... until the next updated version of iTunes is released.
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post #37 of 125
5/28/09 at 10:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by retroneo View Post

It lets you add native iTunes syncing for hardware devices. Many device plugins for older Creative players etc... are even bundled in the install of the current version.

These are the bundled plugins:
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2172

[]

Very nice, thanks for the link; and here I thought Palm was being clever by connecting to the iTubes library. I still have high hopes* for Palm.
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post #38 of 125
5/28/09 at 10:29am
I don't think the Pre gets songs for free does it? Has anyone mentioned that Apple stands to increase income as more devices access the store and pay them? I trust apple accountants are doing cost/benefit analyses to figure out whether they stand to make enough money on increased downloads to offset the loss of income in handsets.
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post #39 of 125
5/28/09 at 10:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

If Apple stop this then shame on them. I for one welcome this. Apple should provide an API for all music player makers, so they can have the iTunes experience, just like the iPod. Apple should compete by making the best product, not by tying everyone else off from iTunes. It's sometimes nice to be liked too. That in itself brings business and improves your company image. Even the Apple haters would congratulate Apple on this one, which would be a clever move.

iTunes is one of those "best products" that Apple's using to compete, and its relationship to iPod/iPhone ties in well with their business model: Use amazing software to sell premium hardware. If I were Apple, I'd make sure that some iTunes software update three weeks after the Pre's release (within the return period) accessed the Pre in a totally inappropriate way, maybe even to the point where the device would need to be restored.

And depending on how the Pre syncs with iTunes, there could be a significant patent case here.

Palm should also "compete by making the best product," but they've decided to ride Apple's coattails instead.
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post #40 of 125
5/28/09 at 10:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PG4G View Post

Yeah,

Apple will release iTunes 8.2 with iPhone 3.0.

I doubt they'll allow this to go on for very long... or maybe they will... (bad press etc)

Just to be pedantic...

To my knowledge Apple has never done this.

Although people always say stuff about Apple having chips in their stuff that make them purposely incompatible with other devices or software, or that they engineer their hardware to only work with certain things or to block other certain things, I can't think of a single verified example over the last ten or fifteen years when this has actually been true.

People always assume this is the case, probably because other players like Microsoft do this regularly, but AFAIK this has simply never been true except in the case of DRM'ed stuff that has been forced upon them by other companies or the market itself.

Apple is (despite the popular misconceptions about it) actually a very open company in terms of the interoperability of it's products.
In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
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In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
Reply
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