Early glimpse at Zune HD: "better" than iPod touch - Page 5

You're right. iPhone will forever be strapped to AT&T.

Apple has at least two significant advantages over most of its rivals in the mobile (phone and media player) space.

1. Apple has had the best supply-chain management in the US for at least the last 2 years (see AMR surveys). This is Cook's forte. Since it looks like Apple is willing to accept a smaller margin (30% instead of 32-35%) and have established preferred status with flash suppliers through their investment and market share, they have the wherewithal to have better hardware at any given price, or to charge less for the same hardware. This is enough to stay ahead (or even defeat) most competitors, however, since MS has shown a willingness to take losses, and subsidize via its monopoly profits on Windows/Office, MS can offset any supply-chain pricing disadvantage it faces.

2. Apple has been a leading innovator in ways that really matter to the user experience, including software, GUIs, and industrial design, by investing in R&D and having vision (going to where the puck is going to be). By doing so, it has been able to set the terms of the competition (or battlefield), forcing everyone to fight on its terms and radically changing those terms whenever a competitor approaches. This is the value of Steve Jobs. In the mobile space, they upended everyone with multi-touch, and access to the real Internet. Then while their competitors was chasing that, they switched on the SDK and the App Store in year 2. iPhone 3.0 software now points to dock-connected hardware accessories and local wifi-based collaboration/gaming apps. And rumors point to something more with the user experience for video. The competitors are certainly arriving on the multi-touch hardware front (but likely at a higher sales price or at a lower margin/profit point, and assuming no patent infringement), but still far away on the App Store.

So there's still room to have a somewhat conservative hardware refresh for iPhone/iPod touch this year(i.e., selling on momentum but really losing ground). But if this year's refresh is conservative, then no later than the next update in 2010, Apple will have to have changed the game on its competitors again. (And I think they will in ways we're only barely imagining right now.)

(BTW, a third advantage is the retail Apple Stores, and a fourth advantage is marketing insight.)

Ok this thread is getting completely out of hand with hearsay and rumors and what ifs.

First off - APPS. Since this is based on Windows CE, the countless Windows Mobile apps that already exist could conceivably run fine on it. If you don't know about them, then don't even bother commenting on this. Otherwise, anyone who actually DOES know about WM apps knows that there are a ton of free apps that do exactly the same thing that paid apps in the app store do.

Secondly - Stop comparing this thing to the 2009 Touch FFS!!! Rather than sit there and talk about what you think the Touch might have, just focus on what Microsoft has announced the Zune will have. Bringing up rumors and trying to pass them off as nonexistent facts speaks wonders to someone's intelligence.

Finally - XBox integration. 30 Million sold and people here still think this won't be an eye catching feature of the Zune. Amazing.


What intrigues me the most with this Zune is the HD video output. With a wifi connection and Orb, I'll be able to stream my hd movies to my friends TV's, not to mention if I simply transfer them to the internal memory of this thing. I've got a fairly large library of movies, and even if they aren't 720p, the zune's native widescreen video output means I won't have to use standard rca cables for a 4:3 display that I crop.

Bottom line, this is a very decent product, and YES, it WILL give the ipod touch a run for it's money. Anyone who thinks it won't is living in a dream world, a fantasy, a place of myth and legend where Apple gives a crap about you defending them.

Fail!

Well, yes actually. They seem to smile upon anyone who gives them product or $$.
Hardly makes me take them very seriously from any angle.

Seriously... can someone explain the virtues of a touch screen desktop monitor to me (other than at a standing kiosk)?
Just think about the experience of interacting with the screen all day by having to extend your arms horizontally. Talk about an ergonomic nightmare.

I'm truly curious.

It might be new but it's still just 3 generations back from what iPods do. Apple is and will always be the a mere cheap copy of an iPod. Get the real thing, get an iPod Touch.

You missed the point. We could debate all day about the differences, MS wins here and Apple wins there however overall Apple has a better mix of features that I want in computers etc. That's all. I don't really like how MS "packages" their products because I'm not part of their demographic. I don't want a cheap iphone clone with some improved features and lacking others. I simply want an Iphone. As a package Apple products simply fit my needs better.

Um, inertia resulting from monopoly status?
Entrenched IT and support interests for whom the platform is a gold mine of support?
People who are forced to have their home systems sync'd with those entrenched IT systems?
Walmart model (cheapo crap) sells more quantity than quality (more expensive) stores?

Just sayin'.

I've repeatedly said Xbox integration is the key to the zHD's success. Large installed base of xbox gives them a great foot in the door.

Don't tell people to forget about heresay then mention how the zune could "conceivably" run WinMo Apps. Going by your rationale, Apps have not been confirmed by Microsoft and should thus be left out of the discussion. Based strictly on announced facts, the Zune HD looks to be a solid PMP, but little else. Compared to the current features of the iPod Touch, it falls short in overall capability.

Spot on! I hate to use the same old automobile analogy, but it works. High volumes of cheaper cars in and of itself does NOT make them better than lower volume, more expensive vehicles.

I think MicroSoft has again missed the point.

With such a device the last thing you want to represent is an OS. it's an Information device, not a desktop computer.

There still using the "Start Button - Menu" theory.

Apple figured out a long time ago that removing the complexity to the user was key. Keep the OS out of the way. The only concept of OS should be to those who develop applications.

I find it amazing that after 30 years that some still think that representing an Electronic-Piece of paper is the key to a user interface. People do not think of the world in terms of a notepad, the perceived world/reality are Objects with Relationships. And as the user's perception changes so does the Reality. For example, at home provides a different perspective of the world than that of being at work.

Sorry to babble..

Bottom line... these devices need the ability to change with the user and their perception. Microsoft has never figured this out... they simply want compatibility with Windows. All of their SmartPhone demonstrate this, as does the Zune it just provides a little higher abstraction.

It looks better. Just like the new Apple keyboards with the numberpad chopped off. Less clutter. It's not ergonomic to type numbers all day without a number pad either. How do you explain that?

Interesting. If this unit came out when the iPod Nano came out, I would say that Apple would have a fight on their hands. As it is, iPod Nano is on gen 3 and you have the iPod touch for $200.

So the product looks good, Microsoft will get greedy with MS points, etc, and its 3-5 years late.

It should be interesting to read the articles about it and then see how it fares.

Just a thought.
en

Whatever. It's not about better - it's about something that works- period. if it didn't work people wouldn't use it. Enough said.

those touchsmart computers are universally accepted as gimmicky. That's not to say touch-screen computing is pointless, however, in it's current state, its a lame stab at differentiating your product from the rest.

What I don't understand is why AppleInsider fails to comment on the video that they post. They mention in the article that the reviewer claims the Zune is more responsive than the iPod Touch. However, it is clear in the video that the guy hits menu items multiple times to get it to respond. They claim it has a better UI, but the text is clearly cut off. If that is Microsoft's idea of a better UI, it is pretty retarded. The Gizmodo guy loses all credibility when he claims the photo he is looking at is HD. What a moron. The Zune HD loses credibility because they are misusing the term HD.

My thoughts exactly.

I have to disagree. People are so entrenched with Windows, they just walk into their local Best Buy and pick the nicest looking, cheapest Windows box they see. I'm talking about the masses, not the small percentage of reasonably tech-minded consumers. The masses are quite simply unaware of any alternatives. Linux has its advantages just like OSX has it's advantages. But most people are not aware enough to give it a try, or they are afraid to switch. You can't argue the fact that the biggest thing Windows has going for it is inertia and low cost. Find me an advertisement which actually touts the benefits of Windows over Mac, instead of simply advertising your hardware partners' low cost.

typical MS smoke and mirrors..."specs this! Specs that! more RAM! more gigabytes! buy me! Ignore overall functionality! I have bigger screen! Nevermind the horrible resolution! I cost less!"

::vomit::

I like this guy.

Ya I thought of what I said a few minutes after I posted it and realized how I sounded like a buffoon. I'm just reacting to the fact that people are acting as if they don't exist. I can run WM apps from 6 years ago, and if the OS is built around the Windows CE OS then the probability is extremely high they will run fine. But yes, it's hearsay and I'm sorry for contradicting myself the way I did.

Use your fingernail, not just the fleshy part of your finger. Made a night an day difference for me.

The only time I wanted one was when I saw my friend's father had set one up by his seat in his home theater. He used it to control everything pretty much.

who cares? i think the company that bases its bread and butter on app support in their operating systems might just care. microsoft's entire marketshare dominance is owed to all the app developers for their operating systems. without a great selection of apps, this will just become another ipod wannabe killer. it needs to be more than that because it's competing with the itouch and even iphone (the phone that's much more than a phone).

and that brings me to the apps...a few months ago, i might have agreed that it was more about quantity than quality but the tide has definitely turned. i've began purchasing a few apps here and there (flight control for .99 cents and geodefense for $3.99 for example). but my point is that i found out about both of these games from a videogame review podcast and website. iphone games are now a regular feature on every major game site. that is big. these games are becoming a real commodity on this platform and the zune hd absolutely needs games and other apps to survive much less thrive.

i don't know why you say iphone/itouch will never wireless sync. the hardware is all there but maybe apple might not unlock that ability, at least not until they use 802.11n or bluetooth 3.0 chipsets. as far the music subscription goes, no , apple will never allow a zune pass to be used on their hardware but there will definitely be a day that they do support streaming subscription services. but that's more of a music industry call than apple's. when they get desperate enough, apple will implement it for them in a big way and make zune pass look like a quaint little idea.

Yawn Did MS say something?

The looney Zune can only survive in the iPhone/iPods shadow. Although, It would make a perfect carnival toy. It's right up there with the fake Elmo doll!

:P

as if it's not already a quaint little idea? lol

BS. How large? if 20% of all Xbox users decide to get the Zune (and this is way too optimistic IMO), how much it will make? Anywhere near 10M per quarter (roughly the non-holiday iPod sales), or more likely 10M per decade.


Most of the things Apple builds upon are not invented by Apple, but none of the things you mentioned are even remotely pioneered by Microsoft. Think Silicon Graphics (SGI), bunch of other UNIXes, Next and even Apple. As far as multi-display support goes, even XP was more problematic than Mac OS System 7 - System 9 in most cases.

I am amazed how many people on this thread imagine that the device that was demoed is any competition to the iPod. The original Zune had more features on paper than the Zune HD against the iPod at the time but failed miserably. And those "Microsoft will put the cache behind" argument! Do you ever learn? Microsoft was forced to lower the price of the original Zune to match the price of the new iPods back then, but did not sell in meaningful quantities until heavy discounts. When the original Zune was announced, many MS fans were sure it will kill the iPod just because it has the MS money and power behind. It didn't work. Why it will work now? The only purpose of the demo is short-term media buzz IMO, much like the multi-touch Table-PC a couple of years ago. I really doubt that we will see this device as demonstrated. My best guess is that they plan some more features but are afraid to pre-announce them because a subsequent dumping of those features will backfire. Otherwise, this device is targeted to a very, very small market niche.

"Step right up! Swing the sledgehammer and make the bell go DING - win a Zune!"

or should it be the prize for most basketballs thrown into an oval-shaped rim? LOL

You're arguing my point. I don't think the Zune will ever surpass the Touch. However, it could see a reasonable amount of success (as defined relative to other Zunes / non-apple PMPs) if they make it a compelling companion to Xbox. If 20 percent of Xbox owners buy a zune HD, that's several million units. "Reasonably successful." It's all relative.

thanks, lostkiwi, i didn't know about this. so Giz is just plain whoring.

Your arguments always fall flat. No one has been able to make money on the subscription services. It doesn't matter what the actual number is, not enough people are interested, period. You always miss the point...

So there are more Vista copies out there? So?... There are more PCs than Macs so that would make sense. Again your point is?!...

People use Windows because they don't know better.

When people I know complain about all the problems they have with their PCs and I ask them why they don't get a Mac, they spew out all the incorrect propaganda they have heard about Macs. It's amazing how consistent they all are. I could record a response and play it back every time.

the whole, "call me when OSX outsells windows" argument is such a joke. Most consumers are uneducated / afraid to switch. They're not buying windows because it's better, they're buying it because it's all they know. "Hello, best buy? Yes, i'd like your cheapest computer with a fancy looking LCD monitor. It has Vista? What's that? Oh well, i'll take it anyway, Thanks!"

I was in staples the other day and there was a woman in there looking at some windows box. I actually felt bad for her. I was almost compelled to intervene and educate her a little, but unfortunately some people just don't / won't get it.

The problem is Windows Mobile and zune HD OS are two different versions of Windows CE. The APIs etc. employed by Windows Mobile Apps do not necessarily exist on zHDOS (In fact, almost all of them almost certainly do not, outside of the base Windows CE APIs etc.). Compatibility of WiMo apps with zune HD OS is extremely unlikely.

Anyway, this thing is clearly a better zune with a nicer screen. But you can put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig. The smaller (Than iPod touch/iPhone) screen, software and design all put me off. I have an iPod touch, and I for one will be replacing it with a Third Gen iPhone. I suspect more people will do that than buy this zune HD (Which is unlikely to be available here in the UK anyway).

Same goes for the Palm Pre (Except with that device, I can't for the life of me work out why everyone is so excited, it really is as ugly and clunky as any Slider Smartphone or indeed any smartphone featuring a gaudy little thumbpad ever has been)

Doesn't look that bad. The screen appears good and the interface seems pretty snappy.
Not so smart with the idea of a zooming menu that crops the current menu title in half making it unuseful on the top of the screen most of the time. What's up with that, Microsoft?

Not that bad.
So what's the software strategy?
Is this a windows mobile platform device?

... I don't know why I write this post.. I really don't care about the zune at all. Sorry for my half hearted entrance.

Well, let's give credit where credit is due.
Microsoft did bring us the Registry.

[deleted for my formatting goof - sorry!]

you say apple is great !!! Thank you.

i will say MSFT sucks .there products pander to the box makers not the people
Since you love mfst so much and there products are soooo good then get the f out here . And go post on there sites .

HEY DUDE .. here you a troll
but at the MSFT sites you would be a god . so leave dude and prosper

and your comments are even worse.


OMG. those "countless" WinMo apps - let's just consider the current 6.x ones - are nearly all primitive apps for small screens with cursor/keyboard UI that can't run on a touchscreen - so they can't possibly run on the Zilch HD! maybe some new 6.5 WinMo apps could - but MS has not said so or even hinted that, so that would be "hearsay and rumor" - actually pure guesswork on your part. my guess, admittedly, is that MS intends to bring apps to the Zilch next year with WinMo 7 instead, since that will be a much more advanced OS than the obsolete 6.x.

meanwhile, the Touch has got great apps for real - today. end of that story.


dude, both the Zilch HD and the 2009 Touch will go on sale at nearly the same time in the fall. everyone is going to compare those two against each other in deciding what to buy whether you approve or not. it would be stupid to compare the Zilch against the 2008 Touch instead. what we know about the 2009 Touch for sure is it will run the iPhone 3.0 software we already have some details about and will learn much more in two weeks. it is fair to say the addition of GPS location services is highly likely, and the addition of a camera is very possible. (a processor speed bump would also be expected since that is the norm.) how do you think the Zilch's new HD radio and 720p output features will stack up against those new Touch features in the marketplace (hint: a blowout of someone).


yes it will catch the eye of a few million teenage boys whose lives revolve around their XBox. will give you that one.


whereas more and more TV makers just let you plug your iPhone/Touch/iPod directly into the TV for playback. as to formats, let's see what outputs the 3.0 OS supports in two weeks.


yeah, sure.