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Final Cut Studio 3 to bundle major Motion, Soundtrack upgrades - Page 2

post #41 of 74
Just started a petition urging Apple to support Blu-ray!

Please sign and spread the word!!!

http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/applebluray/
post #42 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

It's baffling that apple ships STP along with logic yet the two have absolutely nothing in common when it comes to interface, keyboard shortcuts, or even most of the feature set.

it's to compensate for the audio editing features that logic still lacks. fingers crossed this is in the works for logic 9 and bundling STP will no longer be necessary
post #43 of 74
Off topic - Northgate, liking your signature:
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post #44 of 74
it would be nice to hear if Apple are going to do further development on their excellent LiveType 2 as well, which hasn't really been mentioned here by anyone yet.

There's lots of things that LiveType can do to broadcast standard that you wouldn't even bother cranking up Motion or After Effects for.
Here's hoping.
post #45 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by SurgeFilter View Post

it would be nice to hear if Apple are going to do further development on their excellent LiveType 2 as well, which hasn't really been mentioned here by anyone yet.

There's lots of things that LiveType can do to broadcast standard that you wouldn't even bother cranking up Motion or After Effects for.
Here's hoping.

We can't charge $400 an hour for Live Type or Motion like we do for After Effects.
post #46 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by WelshDog View Post

We can't charge $400 an hour for Live Type or Motion like we do for After Effects.

$400 per hour for AE??? I'm in the wrong field.
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post #47 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

I know people in that business who have had to either convert or buy a secondary windows Machine because of having no BluRay support.

Yep.. that's me. I have a special Parallels Windows installation that's just for Blu-ray authoring with my awful Corel app.
post #48 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenino View Post

Just started a petition urging Apple to support Blu-ray!

Please sign and spread the word!!!

http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/applebluray/

Thank you very much for starting this. I signed it immediately when I heard about it. I hope it does get to 10k!
post #49 of 74
Thank God... an online petition. FINALLY we're going to get something DONE!
post #50 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

$400 per hour for AE??? I'm in the wrong field.

Well, that is for HD work, SD is less. Plus we have a fancy facility with lots of client services etc. and a desirable downtown location. Plus our AE people are really good.
post #51 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Two different development teams and codebase. STP comes from the Cupertino guys and Logic is developed by "ze Germans".

Yep. But if they are going to bundle them together, which I assume means they intend for people to use both, it's a pretty terrible user experience to have no continuity between the two.

I agree that it would be great to see the two merge somehow, assuming they could do it in a way that wasn't totally ugly, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyboy View Post

it's to compensate for the audio editing features that logic still lacks. fingers crossed this is in the works for logic 9 and bundling STP will no longer be necessary

That would be fantastic...which makes me even less optimistic that they will do it any time soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bloggerblog View Post

DVD authoring is so yesterday.

Tell that to the people still doing it for a living. I guess at this point they've probably all switched to PC apps.
post #52 of 74
I'm the lead editor on a major cartoon series for MGM and Cartoon Network...and guess what....we are doing all mixing and discreet 5.1 on Soundtrack Pro. Yes. You heard that correctly. We are mixing a major television series on Soundtrack Pro mated to Motu 828's and Mackie control surfaces.

So, to all of you who have universally waved their hand and smugly declared Soundtrack worthless ... you're wrong and you either haven't bothered trying to use the App or you are already wedded to other workflows.

MGM is approving the mixes.

Cartoon Network is approving the mixes.

And the producer is tickled pink by all the cash we're saving.
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post #53 of 74
I really don't think that Logic is going to take on the needs of Soundtrack Pro.

STP is perfect for the "non musician" that wants to deal with audio for video. Logic is and will remain a tool for musicians to get the most out of the program.

I think that the next version of STP will be vastly improved. The crude history.

Soundtrack is delivered. It's like some cross between Garageband and Acid.

Soundtrack Pro was then delivered with a focus on audio for video/film work. And bundled with FCP

Soundtrack Pro 2 I believe was a rewrite of the original app and deliveres some nifty non-destructive editing which is still envied by Logic using musicians.

Soundtrack Pro 3 - should fix bushels of bugs and offer even more functionality. I'm looking forward to both Logic Studio upgrades and STP.

Both should be worthwile.
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post #54 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

I'm the lead editor on a major cartoon series for MGM and Cartoon Network...and guess what....we are doing all mixing and discreet 5.1 on Soundtrack Pro. Yes. You heard that correctly. We are mixing a major television series on Soundtrack Pro mated to Motu 828's and Mackie control surfaces.

So, to all of you who have universally waved their hand and smugly declared Soundtrack worthless ... you're wrong and you either haven't bothered trying to use the App or you are already wedded to other workflows.

Wow, you're a braver soul than I, or most people I know doing pro editing work.

And you really haven't had issues with exporting mixes? Or do you get around it by playing back in STP and recording it in somehow?

I'm not sure why you haven't seen the problems that others have had, if there is something unique to your system or if you are just using it in a different way that doesn't run into the bugs. But whatever the case, I have to say that you are lucky and that your situation is certainly the exception.

There's no question the app has huge bugs, and even after hearing about your situation I would never risk doing a project like that in it - all it would take would be one mix to be missing part of the audio and you're out of a job. Personally, I'm not willing to take that risk.

At this point, bragging about using STP for work on a deadline is like bragging "Hey, I ate raw chicken and I didn't get sick!" Just because one guy got lucky doesn't mean it's a good idea for people to do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Soundtrack Pro was then delivered with a focus on audio for video/film work. And bundled with FCP

Soundtrack Pro 2 I believe was a rewrite of the original app and deliveres some nifty non-destructive editing which is still envied by Logic using musicians.

Soundtrack Pro 3 - should fix bushels of bugs and offer even more functionality. I'm looking forward to both Logic Studio upgrades and STP.

Version 1 had the non-destructive editing (and destructive editing, which Logic doesn't have either). Really version 2 didn't have that much more than version 1 did, more small features added than big ones. I'm not sure if it was a rewrite, it didn't seem that much different although 2.0 had a huge number of new bugs, making it pretty much unusable (I went back to the last 1.x version until 2.0.1 or 2.0.2 was out, fixing some but not all of the issues). 2 also has a number of things that are way less convenient than 1.x (hitting save on an edited WAV file brings up a save box defaulted to STP audio file instead of just saving the file again as WAV?).

I sure hope STP3 fixes all the major bugs and adds more features, but after the 2.0 debacle and the year that has passed with no bugfixes it's hard to be optimistic about the app.

And while I doubt they'll merge the two, both apps could be vastly improved by taking the best features and interface elements of both and moving them to the other.
post #55 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

I really don't think that Logic is going to take on the needs of Soundtrack Pro.

STP is perfect for the "non musician" that wants to deal with audio for video. Logic is and will remain a tool for musicians to get the most out of the program.

I think that the next version of STP will be vastly improved. The crude history.

Soundtrack is delivered. It's like some cross between Garageband and Acid.

Soundtrack Pro was then delivered with a focus on audio for video/film work. And bundled with FCP

Soundtrack Pro 2 I believe was a rewrite of the original app and deliveres some nifty non-destructive editing which is still envied by Logic using musicians.

Soundtrack Pro 3 - should fix bushels of bugs and offer even more functionality. I'm looking forward to both Logic Studio upgrades and STP.

Both should be worthwile.

I completely agree with your assessment.

Personally I would like to see more robust audio editing and mixing features built right into Final Cut. Most of the time you can do most audio editing right inside the editor.

But sometimes more robust mixing and monitoring is required and I can see using Soundtrack for that stuff.
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post #56 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

Wow, you're a braver soul than I, or most people I know doing pro editing work.

And you really haven't had issues with exporting mixes? Or do you get around it by playing back in STP and recording it in somehow?

I'm sorry my post surprises you so much. I have no issues with exporting mixes. I export both 6-channel discreet stems along with stereo mix-downs (Lt Rt) and haven't encountered any issues or errors.

The only issue we're having with Soundtrack is that it doesn't let the AJA card and the Motu co-exist very well. It works well with the Kona cards but not the lower-end cards.

But as far as functionality, GUI, and getting work done it seems perfectly suited to our task. Again, we're an "in-house whenever possible" type of shop. If we hadn't convinced MGM and CN on a non-Avid, non-Protools workflow we couldn't pull this show off on the budget.

My sound editors do most of the grunt work (sound effects editing) in the FCP timeline and then export separate tracks (Dialog, ADR, Foley, SFX1, SFX2, Ambiance, Music) and then we import those in Soundtrack. We do not use the "send to" commands. The reason we don't is because we need to import the final mixed tracks back into a FCP sequence that has the audio setup for discreet channels (for dubbing out to HDCAM-SR). So it is possible we're not experiencing any of the XML bugs because we avoid that altogether.

Also, I want to point out that I've recently finished editing and sound design on my first live-action feature film that recently screened at Cannes. This sound design workflow was the exact same workflow I illustrated above. It worked great.

We just delivered all 6-channel stems to the distributor (NTSC full mix, NTSC M&E, PAL full mix, PAL M&E, NSTC stereo mix down, NTSC stereo M&E, PAL stereo mix down, PAL stereo M&E). All without a hitch.

And I'm not saying that Soundtrack Pro is perfect or without flaw. It certainly has room for improvement. What I'm objecting to is this notion that it's just a stupid app no one cares about and should just be dropped from the suite.
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post #57 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

And I'm not saying that Soundtrack Pro is perfect or without flaw. It certainly has room for improvement. What I'm objecting to is this notion that it's just a stupid app no one cares about and should just be dropped from the suite.

Thanks for the details on how you are working. Do you export mixes with the "export mix" command or send them back to FCP some other way?

I'm not going to comment on whether or not it's "stupid" and I don't think they should dump it. But it's a verifiable fact that it can be extremely unreliable - the biggest issue for me is that a majority of the time, exported mixes simply don't have all the elements of the mix. Another big one is that most of the time when effects are applied to a mono sound file (in the 2 track part of the program), the audio preview is completely distorted. Happens almost every time and has been confirmed by multiple users.

http://discussions.apple.com/thread....sageID=9080105
http://discussions.apple.com/thread....sageID=9080105

It's great that it works for you. But don't assume that the problems others are seeing are imagined or user error just because you haven't experienced them. For me, any app that outputs corrupt files, particularly in the range of 50% of the time, is simply unacceptable.
post #58 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

So, to all of you who have universally waved their hand and smugly declared Soundtrack worthless ... you're wrong and you either haven't bothered trying to use the App or you are already wedded to other workflows.

MGM is approving the mixes.

Cartoon Network is approving the mixes.

And the producer is tickled pink by all the cash we're saving.

I think the point is that sinking a ton of development cost into Soundtrack Pro for a suite that most people buy for the editor is money that many would rather see spent elsewhere. No one buys FC Studio for STP. I've never run into a Soundtrack Pro freelancer, nor do any facilities I know of (and that's a modest sampling) have STP suites. Mandating the use of Pro Tools, for us, means that our options for changes or remastering are open years down the line, even if we're producing the project through a subsidiary production company (or a contracted one). However, we're also using Final Cut, which has a ton of media management issues on its own. So I can't say I blame you for trying to save a ton of money because we did the same thing by going with FC. FC has saved our asses several times by allowing us to quickly turnaround mixed format/frame rate projects, only to burn us on media management (and the occasional completely unrendered timeline). I really think Apple needs to bulletproof FC, and I would shed no tears for STP if they dropped it and focused on FC.
post #59 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

Thanks for the details on how you are working. Do you export mixes with the "export mix" command or send them back to FCP some other way?

I'm not going to comment on whether or not it's "stupid" and I don't think they should dump it. But it's a verifiable fact that it can be extremely unreliable - the biggest issue for me is that a majority of the time, exported mixes simply don't have all the elements of the mix. Another big one is that most of the time when effects are applied to a mono sound file (in the 2 track part of the program), the audio preview is completely distorted. Happens almost every time and has been confirmed by multiple users.

http://discussions.apple.com/thread....sageID=9080105
http://discussions.apple.com/thread....sageID=9080105

It's great that it works for you. But don't assume that the problems others are seeing are imagined or user error just because you haven't experienced them. For me, any app that outputs corrupt files, particularly in the range of 50% of the time, is simply unacceptable.

I agree that the XML "send to" and "send back" features are crap and don't work as advertised. Absolutely that needs a major overhaul and fix.

But if you avoid doing that all together, Soundtrack is a great app. Or maybe it's because I don't mind exporting pre-mixes out of FCP and setting up projects in Soundtrack manually. I drop my rendered Quicktime of the video on the top layer and then I drop all the rendered pre-mix AIF's in their corresponding layers and mix away.
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post #60 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelcruncher View Post

I think the point is that sinking a ton of development cost into Soundtrack Pro for a suite that most people buy for the editor is money that many would rather see spent elsewhere. No one buys FC Studio for STP. I've never run into a Soundtrack Pro freelancer, nor do any facilities I know of (and that's a modest sampling) have STP suites. Mandating the use of Pro Tools, for us, means that our options for changes or remastering are open years down the line, even if we're producing the project through a subsidiary production company (or a contracted one). However, we're also using Final Cut, which has a ton of media management issues on its own. So I can't say I blame you for trying to save a ton of money because we did the same thing by going with FC. FC has saved our asses several times by allowing us to quickly turnaround mixed format/frame rate projects, only to burn us on media management (and the occasional completely unrendered timeline). I really think Apple needs to bulletproof FC, and I would shed no tears for STP if they dropped it and focused on FC.

I'm not arguing that Soundtrack Pro is a mainstream sound mixing app. I know it's not. What I'm arguing about is that Soundtrack Pro DOES have it's uses for some of us. Not all of us can afford to ALSO buy ProTools. So having a decent mixing app is fantastic, particularly for independent filmmakers. And that's why I fear seeing it die.

And I do agree that Apple needs to seriously challenge Avid's media management monopoly. Go for the jugular. Avid's on the ropes. Target their very best, most coveted features and take them on directly. Not only will we get a superior app out of it, but we might be able to kill this annoying attitude amongst studio heads and producers that it's "not really Pro unless it's been edited on an Avid."
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post #61 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

I agree that the XML "send to" and "send back" features are crap and don't work as advertised. Absolutely that needs a major overhaul and fix.

But if you avoid doing that all together, Soundtrack is a great app. Or maybe it's because I don't mind exporting pre-mixes out of FCP and setting up projects in Soundtrack manually. I drop my rendered Quicktime of the video on the top layer and then I drop all the rendered pre-mix AIF's in their corresponding layers and mix away.

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm talking about, I'm not using XML and I'm not interfacing with FC (I'm a Logic guy).

Here's the bug:

1 Open a session and drag audio files onto a couple tracks
2 Make a cycle selection in the timeline that includes that audio and make sure cycle is on
3 Export a wav file (command E)

A majority of the time, even in the simplest "mix", there are chunks of audio missing.

Sorry, but any app that fails to be able to do something so ridiculously basic can't be "great".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

I'm not arguing that Soundtrack Pro is a mainstream sound mixing app. I know it's not. What I'm arguing about is that Soundtrack Pro DOES have it's uses for some of us. Not all of us can afford to ALSO buy ProTools. So having a decent mixing app is fantastic, particularly for independent filmmakers. And that's why I fear seeing it die.

With the major reliability issues in STP, I'd argue that for video post it's a much safer choice to just buy the cheapest digidesign hardware that runs Pro Tools LE (they start at $300, less than Logic costs), not much more expensive than Logic with a hardware box, and much less risk that you're going to send out a mix that is defective.

IF STP was reliable, I'd absolutely agree with you, it's a great start to an application. But the vast majority of pro audio users aren't going to use it at all, much less take it seriously, until it is much more dependable. We're not all willing to take risks and be a guinea pig for apple.
post #62 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelcruncher View Post

I think the point is that sinking a ton of development cost into Soundtrack Pro for a suite that most people buy for the editor is money that many would rather see spent elsewhere. No one buys FC Studio for STP. I've never run into a Soundtrack Pro freelancer, nor do any facilities I know of (and that's a modest sampling) have STP suites. Mandating the use of Pro Tools, for us, means that our options for changes or remastering are open years down the line, even if we're producing the project through a subsidiary production company (or a contracted one). However, we're also using Final Cut, which has a ton of media management issues on its own. So I can't say I blame you for trying to save a ton of money because we did the same thing by going with FC. FC has saved our asses several times by allowing us to quickly turnaround mixed format/frame rate projects, only to burn us on media management (and the occasional completely unrendered timeline). I really think Apple needs to bulletproof FC, and I would shed no tears for STP if they dropped it and focused on FC.

Hear, hear! And even better: Apple hows about letting us a la carte the components of FCS? All I would need is FC + Compressor + Color. Maybe DVDSP on some systems. I don't want Motion and Live Type clogging up my system drives with a pant load of media files we never use. And I don't want to pay for them either.
post #63 of 74
While there's no getting around paying for them, you don't have to install them all, or all the media files.
post #64 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by WelshDog View Post

Hear, hear! And even better: Apple hows about letting us a la carte the components of FCS? All I would need is FC + Compressor + Color. Maybe DVDSP on some systems. I don't want Motion and Live Type clogging up my system drives with a pant load of media files we never use. And I don't want to pay for them either.

Then no one would buy motion or live type lol. The package is cheap enough as it to not need to part out the pieces. As it is FCS is only 200 more than After Effects alone. It's double the price of premier (last time I checked) so I don't see buying only FCP + Compressor + Color saving you any significant money.
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post #65 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecking View Post

Then no one would buy motion or live type lol. The package is cheap enough as it to not need to part out the pieces. As it is FCS is only 200 more than After Effects alone. It's double the price of premier (last time I checked) so I don't see buying only FCP + Compressor + Color saving you any significant money.

+1

The assumption is that Apple would discount FCS at all. Let's not forget that Color nee FinalTouch was $20k in the HD form prior to Apple's acquisition. I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth. FCS is and will remain a fantastic deal. If they only had a solid AE competitor.
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post #66 of 74
Agreed. If anything, the problem with the FCS and Logic Studio packages is that Apple has made them too cheap, and is more interested in selling them in quantity to people who don't truly need "pro" than they are in competing at the high end.

I'd love to see FCS and Logic as the best apps of their kind money can buy, and at one point that looked like Apple's goal, but it seems more and more that Apple is settling for "pretty good" and assuming that people will cut them more slack since the apps are such a good deal (and to some degree, people are).
post #67 of 74
Hi, I am new here and love these ideas!, I posted a thread called "On The Fence", the other day about rumors of FCS 3 in Apple FCS Forum, and the sensor Police, took it off the Forum, and they comb the forums looking for anything the don"t want to be talked about such "Blu Ray Support" in FCS 3. All I was trying to do was get a feel of what is going to happen in the coming months with DVDSP, and FCS 3. I have been trying to decide whether to wait see if the release will include Blu Ray authoring or not, before I have to go out and build a totally new i7 Quad Core windows machine to author BR Discs for wedding Videography. I have the capability to burn on my Mac Quad now with Toast 10, but I really would like to make menus etc. If I went the windows route, then I still would have to buy another DVD Blu Ray burner also for the new machine, as well as a external drive just to transfer the movie file the I edited and created on my Mac Quad., anyways, sorry to ramble, but what would you do? wait for Apple to get their @^#@ together? or build a new machine to run windows apps?

Thank You All for you Imput, and this forum is great! Tim C.
post #68 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimC View Post

I have been trying to decide whether to wait see if the release will include Blu Ray authoring or not, before I have to go out and build a totally new i7 Quad Core windows machine to author BR Discs for wedding Videography. I have the capability to burn on my Mac Quad now with Toast 10, but I really would like to make menus etc.

If I went the windows route, then I still would have to buy another DVD Blu Ray burner also for the new machine, as well as a external drive just to transfer the movie file the I edited and created on my Mac Quad., anyways, sorry to ramble, but what would you do? wait for Apple to get their @^#@ together? or build a new machine to run windows apps?

If you have a Quad Mac Pro, you can simply install Windows via Bootcamp and reboot to author the movies and you can install software that allows you to access the Mac partition so that you can get your files over without an external.

You might even get away with using virtualization software (VMWare, Parallels) for authoring but you can't play back Blu-Ray movies on disc. Perhaps that's just a limitation with encrypted movies though - movies that you burn yourself may not have that limitation.

If you have a G5 quad, the options aren't so good. I don't see Apple bringing out a new Final Cut with Blu-Ray support before the hardware gets the drives. I also don't see a new Final Cut coming before Snow Leopard, which is due in September - I think given all their work with OpenCL and the move to OpenCL compatible GPUs as well as 64-bit, it wouldn't be a good move to avoid taking advantage of those developments. Image processing is one area OpenCL will excel at and most of Apple's Pro apps - Final Cut Pro, Aperture, Color, Shake, Motion can all benefit from this considerably.

In the developer tools, Apple bundles Quartz composer and you can see how fast the hardware acceleration is for image processing.

Trouble is, a 64-bit version with hardware acceleration will be limited not only to Snow Leopard but by extension Intel-only machines.

Nonetheless, this would be a pretty impressive demo, just in time for CES 2010 in January.
post #69 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

You might even get away with using virtualization software (VMWare, Parallels) for authoring

You can. That's what I do.
post #70 of 74
I have a Mac G5 Quad, so it looks like I am screwed? drag, and I love my machine, hell, I might have to build a windblows one now
post #71 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimC View Post

I have a Mac G5 Quad, so it looks like I am screwed? drag, and I love my machine, hell, I might have to build a windblows one now

Might not be such a bad idea not just because Blu-ray authoring is not available in FCS yet but because there may be other tools you can leverage on the PC.
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post #72 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimC View Post

I have a Mac G5 Quad, so it looks like I am screwed? drag, and I love my machine, hell, I might have to build a windblows one now

Either that or sell the G5 and upgrade to a Mac Pro. This way you'd not only be able to run Windows on it avoiding copying over ethernet etc (assuming you still edit on the Mac) but when 10.6 arrives, you'll be able to take advantage of any hardware acceleration they may have thrown in.

10.6 isn't supported on the G5, effectively making the G5 obsolete beyond September as far as future upgrades go. It's best to sell before September for this reason. Unfortunately, the Mac Pros went up in price considerably this time round but you might be able to pick up a decent refurbished model:

http://store.apple.com/us/product/FB...mco=MjE0NDk5Mw
post #73 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Either that or sell the G5 and upgrade to a Mac Pro. This way you'd not only be able to run Windows on it avoiding copying over ethernet etc (assuming you still edit on the Mac) but when 10.6 arrives, you'll be able to take advantage of any hardware acceleration they may have thrown in.

10.6 isn't supported on the G5, effectively making the G5 obsolete beyond September as far as future upgrades go. It's best to sell before September for this reason. Unfortunately, the Mac Pros went up in price considerably this time round but you might be able to pick up a decent refurbished model:

http://store.apple.com/us/product/FB...mco=MjE0NDk5Mw

Well, I am going to try to sell my Quad staring at $2300, and see what I can get, thouth that may seem high, but its a starting point anyways get a Mac Pro, for these updates in the future,

Thank You all for your imput, T.
post #74 of 74
Hi Again
I bought a new Mac Pro Octo today, had to bite the bullet, and I think I will get a trade in on this purchase if I dont sell the Quad first
Thank You All, TimC.
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