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Apple unveils faster, more affordable MacBook Pros - Page 6

post #201 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I appreciate what you're saying (writing). I do. And I'm not arguing that you have crazy needs. What I'm saying is that you really are asking a laptop to perform tasks that a desktop should be doing, especially with all the connectivity you need. The MBP Pro was not designed for this, whether or not it worked and no matter what "other people" do with theirs.

The part in bold above is the point: Your needs are obviously out of the ordinary for a MBP user. Otherwise, Apple would not sell them.

No my usage of FCP is very well within spec for a MBP and within remit of the design.
The MBP is designed to run FCP (as well as many other applications).and FCP is designed to run on pro laptops and desktops- both are used in production widely.

We are talking the pro line here and not the the macbook consumer line.?! and we are also in the 21st century- long gone are is the need to be chained to one edit suite that takes up an entire room- or a large van and a gas generator- thanks in no small part to apple.

A desktop is not some holy grail for video production- a hell of a lot gets done / and needs to be done on portable kit.
Macbook pro / FCP are frequently sold together as turnkey systems.

Your right that the 15" MBP has now been designed not to meet these needs. but up until last week it was implicitly designed for these needs.
post #202 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graeme View Post

Macbook pro / FCP are frequently sold together as turnkey systems.

Your right that the 15" MBP has now been designed not to meet these needs. but up until last week it was implicitly designed for these needs.

definitely. it does seem they are trying to squeeze the pro creatives into the 17" slot.

although, i don't know how ppl can cut in FCP all day on a 15", without an external monitor that is.
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post #203 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

What Graeme says is correct. We use configurations like this on location all the time. Often powered by an inverter fed from the van, or a generator (there are some fairly quiet ones, and they can be located so as to not cause noise pollution on the set).

Often these set-ups are used for editing dailies at a lower IQ, for the editors back "home".

The same thing is true for still location work.

Who is "we" and how many of "we" are there?

Quote:

A large number of Mac Book Pros are bought just for these purposes.

No, that's simply not true. Ask Apple. If people using the card slot are "single digit," we can assume that people using the machine as you describe are "really low single digit."

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Macbook Pros', just like the Powerbooks before them are perfect for this.

But now, an E-SATA has become a must, and there's no excuse that there isn't room in the case for one as they are so small.

1. They might have been, but Apple really didn't design them for that purpose.

2. Agreed. Don't get me wrong...if I was in your boat, I'd complain too. But realize that you're talking about a very small market segment. Apple is going more for the prosumer market with MBPs, not the actual "pro" market. Obviously that makes business sense to them.
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post #204 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Who is "we" and how many of "we" are there?

Well, I'm retired now, but "we" stands for those doing advertising work such as for commercials, as well as film. It also includes those of us who shoot fashion and other location work.

I thought you understood that from my description.

Quote:
No, that's simply not true. Ask Apple. If people using the card slot are "single digit," we can assume that people using the machine as you describe are "really low single digit."

I don't care much for what Apple has to say. I CAN tell you that I had a few thouusand professional customers at my commercial photo lab in NYC over the years, and a very large percentage had Apple's pro laptops, and DID use them for these purposes. I keep in touch with many people in the industry, and they tell me that they still use these laptops in large numbers.

I doubt that Apple even knows where many of their products are being used, no matter what they may say .

Quote:
1. They might have been, but Apple really didn't design them for that purpose.

Apple DID design them for that purpose. They even promote the Macbook Pro FCS combo.

Laptops used to cost much more than they do today, and only those who really needed the kind of models Apple (and other even more expensive PC laptops) produced could afford to buy them, with some exceptions.

As the price of computers has come down so much, and that includes Apple's, more people have bought them, and so the "professionalism" of the buying public has lessened. That's to be expected.

But other than for a port or so, these machines are till very much professional in character. Few pros really uses many ports despite the words of some "would be" pros here.

Many pros would like an E-SATA port, but for now, that's not to be. Possibly in later models after the power over SATA ports are out.

But they did give the FW 800 port which is the best that one can expect right now. It's too bad they eliminated the Express port, but there are other ways of getting high speed CF cards, though it's another dangling adapter. Annoying, but not critical.

Quote:
2. Agreed. Don't get me wrong...if I was in your boat, I'd complain too. But realize that you're talking about a very small market segment. Apple is going more for the prosumer market with MBPs, not the actual "pro" market. Obviously that makes business sense to them.

Again, I'm not so certain their numbers actually reflect what's happening. OWC tells me that their sales of Express adapters is very good, so something is remiss as they are only one retailer. B&H also tells me that a fair number of buyers of the pro machines also buy Express adapters.

I don't know where Apple is getting those numbers from, but it's not from the pro sales outlets, that's for sure.
post #205 of 239
The confusion lies in Apples naming scheme. Apple claims that they upgraded the MB's to MBP's. In fact, what they did was downgrade the MBP's to MB's. To be sure, these are very good MacBooks. We now have a 15" MacBook. The pro line still starts at about $2000. When you think of it that way, the impact is not so severe. I have always thought that Apple should completely drop the "pro" moniker. All books should be MacBooks with different options. Then they could satisfy those who want an Express Card slot and those who do not. They could give the more expensive models dedicated graphics. One name; many configs and price-points. Calling them all "pro" will inevitably make some feel under-specked.
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post #206 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac Voyer View Post

The confusion lies in Apples naming scheme. Apple claims that they upgraded the MB's to MBP's. In fact, what they did was downgrade the MBP's to MB's. To be sure, these are very good MacBooks. We now have a 15" MacBook. The pro line still starts at about $2000. When you think of it that way, the impact is not so severe. I have always thought that Apple should completely drop the "pro" moniker. All books should be MacBooks with different options. Then they could satisfy those who want an Express Card slot and those who do not. They could give the more expensive models dedicated graphics. One name; many configs and price-points. Calling them all "pro" will inevitably make some feel under-specked.

I don't know how important the designation is these days either.

The truth is that back when, pro features cost a lot more to implement. Even simple features could add greatly to the cost. not so much today.

I also dislike the "pro" being added to the name of any product, from any company. It means so little that I think it actually diminishes the product.

Does anyone really think that Final Cut would not be understood to be a "pro" product if the name didn't tell us?

I remember more than a few years ago, sitting in a train here in NYC when I saw some guy getting on and sitting nearby with a big box with a Symphonic audio system that said, in large letters "Professional".

Well, it couldn't have cost much more than $125 for the whole thing.

The label has lost its meaning.

Maybe they should do what Hollywood has done with actors. The word "Star" has long lost any meaning, so they went to "Superstar" then, "Megastar".

What a waste!
post #207 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I don't know how important the designation is these days either.

The truth is that back when, pro features cost a lot more to implement. Even simple features could add greatly to the cost. not so much today.

I also dislike the "pro" being added to the name of any product, from any company. It means so little that I think it actually diminishes the product.

Does anyone really think that Final Cut would not be understood to be a "pro" product if the name didn't tell us?

I remember more than a few years ago, sitting in a train here in NYC when I saw some guy getting on and sitting nearby with a big box with a Symphonic audio system that said, in large letters "Professional".

Well, it couldn't have cost much more than $125 for the whole thing.

The label has lost its meaning.

Maybe they should do what Hollywood has done with actors. The word "Star" has long lost any meaning, so they went to "Superstar" then, "Megastar".

What a waste!

I'm not even sure when the pro thing crept in (on Hardware)- think it happened a few years after the 'i' crept in - Your right a label means very little. It Possibly means a hell of a lot to people trying to look 'pro' like your chap on the bus.

I don't think any other computer manufacture feels the need to differentiates hardware in this way- just Laptop, Desktop and server. Then you choose the right spec for what you do.

perhaps the next Hollywood star should be 'Hyper-Star Pro'
post #208 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graeme View Post

I'm not even sure when the pro thing crept in (on Hardware)- think it happened a few years after the 'i' crept in - Your right a label means very little. It Possibly means a hell of a lot to people trying to look 'pro' like your chap on the bus.

I don't think any other computer manufacture feels the need to differentiates hardware in this way- just Laptop, Desktop and server. Then you choose the right spec for what you do.

perhaps the next Hollywood star should be 'Hyper-Star Pro'

Yeah, it's ridiculous!

So if a lower price design has most of the features of the high price device, is it a Pro?

If the higher price lacks one or two features, is it an amateur machine?

It makes no sense. It just gives those who like to argue about what Apple (or any manufacturer) has done, some ammo.

I agree that the machines should just be designated as portable, perhaps just distinguished by size and weight, and let people buy which ones meet their needs.

Maybe Apple should call the 13" model and the lowest priced 15" model "low end Pro" models, and the top 15" with the 17" "High End Pro" models. They would have some company in the silly rarified High End audio industry.
post #209 of 239
What I think this new line-up really means for us is that Apple is planning to replace the $999 plastic Macbook, the only one left, with a new line of Macbooks. Perhaps this new line will begin with a lower priced model, now that the Pro line starts at $1,200.

Maybe we'll finally see an $899 model, or even one at $849, or $799.

That would give then enough distance from the new lower Pro models, and satisfy those who have been calling for Apple to have less expensive products in these days of deep recession.

Possibly, this will be something for Jobs to announce when he comes back at the end of the month, as sort of a returning present to everyone.
post #210 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Many pros would like an E-SATA port, but for now, that's not to be.

What makes it more exasperating is that it is possible to integrate the USB and esata ports into one. Lots of Windows PCs do this to save space.
post #211 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I remember more than a few years ago, sitting in a train here in NYC when I saw some guy getting on and sitting nearby with a big box with a Symphonic audio system that said, in large letters "Professional".

Well, it couldn't have cost much more than $125 for the whole thing.

The label has lost its meaning.

I was riding in a BMW last night, it was already ten years old, but a label on the sound system said "Professional CD". It was an ordinary CD player for all that I could tell.
post #212 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by infinitespecter View Post

What makes it more exasperating is that it is possible to integrate the USB and esata ports into one. Lots of Windows PCs do this to save space.

I haven't noticed that. could you show an example?
post #213 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I was riding in a BMW last night, it was already ten years old, but a label on the sound system said "Professional CD". It was an ordinary CD player for all that I could tell.

Thats the problem with this mess.

People don't really expect cheap garbage to be professional even though they carry the label, at least I hope that more than a few don't.

Does Hassleblad need the word Pro on its cameras? Do Canon and Nikon's $8,000 models?

How about IMB's mainframes?

Where does this start, and where does it end?

All it seems to do here is give a few annoying people something to start an argument about.
post #214 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

What I think this new line-up really means for us is that Apple is planning to replace the $999 plastic Macbook, the only one left, with a new line of Macbooks. Perhaps this new line will begin with a lower priced model, now that the Pro line starts at $1,200.

Maybe we'll finally see an $899 model, or even one at $849, or $799.

That would give then enough distance from the new lower Pro models, and satisfy those who have been calling for Apple to have less expensive products in these days of deep recession.

Possibly, this will be something for Jobs to announce when he comes back at the end of the month, as sort of a returning present to everyone.

They did update it with the new nVidia chipset. That is confusing, because it felt like the White Mac Book was only hanging on a thread before being given the end of life status.
post #215 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

They did update it with the new nVidia chipset. That is confusing, because it felt like the White Mac Book was only hanging on a thread before being given the end of life status.

Doesn't it seem strange though that there would be only one Macbook left? Not much of a line. It's also an older machine, though a good one.

I think that Apple's got some tricks up its sleeve. A less expensive manufacturing method. A bigger battery a la the new Macbook Pros, a smaller, lighter form, and a lower initial price point.

It makes sense to me. Not wishful thinking as we see here sometimes as I'm not in the market for such a machine.
post #216 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Well, I'm retired now, but "we" stands for those doing advertising work such as for commercials, as well as film. It also includes those of us who shoot fashion and other location work.

I thought you understood that from my description.

I was just trying you to be specific. Sorry...a little poking on my part.

Quote:


I don't care much for what Apple has to say. I CAN tell you that I had a few thouusand professional customers at my commercial photo lab in NYC over the years, and a very large percentage had Apple's pro laptops, and DID use them for these purposes. I keep in touch with many people in the industry, and they tell me that they still use these laptops in large numbers.

I doubt that Apple even knows where many of their products are being used, no matter what they may say .

Well that's just silly. Apple doesn't take a whiz without a plan. They know who there users are. They don't just change a spec like this without thinking about it.

Quote:

Apple DID design them for that purpose. They even promote the Macbook Pro FCS combo.

That doesn't mean they designed them for using all the ports (including ethernet and express card) simultaneously. They didn't design it to use RAID, Firewire 400 and 800, ethernet, an external monitor, video decks and external drives all at the same time. They designed them to import video--possibly to an external drive or possibly not---and then edit it.

Quote:

Laptops used to cost much more than they do today, and only those who really needed the kind of models Apple (and other even more expensive PC laptops) produced could afford to buy them, with some exceptions.

As the price of computers has come down so much, and that includes Apple's, more people have bought them, and so the "professionalism" of the buying public has lessened. That's to be expected.

I don't know. As a music educator I bought a Pismo PB when it costs $3000. Lots of people had machines like that. I think it's been lessening for a long time.

Quote:

But other than for a port or so, these machines are till very much professional in character. Few pros really uses many ports despite the words of some "would be" pros here.

That's exactly what I'm saying.

Quote:

Many pros would like an E-SATA port, but for now, that's not to be. Possibly in later models after the power over SATA ports are out.

But they did give the FW 800 port which is the best that one can expect right now. It's too bad they eliminated the Express port, but there are other ways of getting high speed CF cards, though it's another dangling adapter. Annoying, but not critical.

Personally I'd rather see a FW 400 port too. I have to get adapters for anything I use that was FW400 now.

Quote:

Again, I'm not so certain their numbers actually reflect what's happening. OWC tells me that their sales of Express adapters is very good, so something is remiss as they are only one retailer. B&H also tells me that a fair number of buyers of the pro machines also buy Express adapters.

I don't know where Apple is getting those numbers from, but it's not from the pro sales outlets, that's for sure.

That doesn't really prove anything. How many have they sold? Were their sales good before? And you realize we are talking millions of MBPs. If OWC sells 10,000 adapters, that's probably not even 1% of the market per year.
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post #217 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Well that's just silly. Apple doesn't take a whiz without a plan. They know who there users are. They don't just change a spec like this without thinking about it.

You would be surprised at how companies *wish* their users were mostly doing one thing when they are actually doing something else.

Apple is very well known for trying to push their customers into moving in a direction that Apple wants them to move in. I wouldn't be surprised if this is one of those occasions.

We are all quite aware of their policies in several areas in which they do what they want, and not what we want.

They may make a statement about percentages, but I doubt they actually are doing more than guessing.

You can be sure they think about the changes they make, but the reasons they make them may not be the reasons you think they are. It could very well be that Apple wanted to get rig of the expensive, and roomy Express socket and circuitry and replace it with this because they THINK it will result in higher sales and lower costs. They may be right, but they may be wrong about the sales. The lower prices of the models will help sales, but the difference from the Express port may not contribute much to that.

This looks to me to be as much a matter of maintaining margins in an era of lower prices computers from them than anything else.

Quote:
That doesn't mean they designed them for using all the ports (including ethernet and express card) simultaneously. They didn't design it to use RAID, Firewire 400 and 800, ethernet, an external monitor, video decks and external drives all at the same time. They designed them to import video--possibly to an external drive or possibly not---and then edit it.

now whose making the silly remark? Of course they did!

You expect them to design a machine with ports that can't all be used at once? You expect that there are people who don't use them all at once? Because if you do, you'd be wrong. There are many instances where all the ports are in use at once, even if only a small percentage of pros need to do that. I shouldn't have to give you scenarios for this.

Quote:
I don't know. As a music educator I bought a Pismo PB when it costs $3000. Lots of people had machines like that. I think it's been lessening for a long time.

That's not expensive. Laptops used to cost $7,000 for the better pro models. $3,000 is nothing. And that's taking inflation into account.

Quote:
That's exactly what I'm saying.

I'm not saying that all pros use all ports all the time. But those that do, need them. It's always sad when a more sophisticated port goes away in favor of a much less useful one, esp. when the better port can be used for the simpler tasks, but not visa versa.

Quote:
Personally I'd rather see a FW 400 port too. I have to get adapters for anything I use that was FW400 now.

That's trivial. Buy a couple of $10 adapters. I can't see as how you think that having to need a dangling (expensive FW 800) CF card adapter is less important than your buying an 800 to 400 adapter. That's backwards thinking.

Quote:
That doesn't really prove anything. How many have they sold? Were their sales good before? And you realize we are talking millions of MBPs. If OWC sells 10,000 adapters, that's probably not even 1% of the market per year.

We're not talking about millions of Macbook Pros. We're talking about hundreds of thousands per quarter. The biggie is the Macbook line.

And OWC is far from the only outlets selling these adapters. As I mentioned, B&H sells them in large numbers. I'm sure all other outlets sell them as well. Maybe Apple sees one percent in their own stores, and that's where their numbers come from.

Now, because of the lower pricing, they will sell many more.
post #218 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

]That doesn't mean they designed them for using all the ports (including ethernet and express card) simultaneously. They didn't design it to use RAID, Firewire 400 and 800, ethernet, an external monitor, video decks and external drives all at the same time. They designed them to import video--possibly to an external drive or possibly not---and then edit it. .

Hi Didn't realise id cause this long discussion when i said the new 15" wouldn't be any good for me. ( i guess thats naivety for you

I'm really not using my MBP or FCP in a way it wasn't designed for- I'm really not.

You seem to have the impression all my ports are running red hot! and my computer is about to melt.

It's not that i need data streaming all day long through every orifice on my laptop- but at some point each day i will need access to all of them. so variety is important. and most of my tasks need something better than USB (better suited that is).

If i get a chance later - and it is of interest to you- ill list the actual kit I've got plugged in and the processes involved.
post #219 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

You would be surprised at how companies *wish* their users were mostly doing one thing when they are actually doing something else.

Apple is very well known for trying to push their customers into moving in a direction that Apple wants them to move in. I wouldn't be surprised if this is one of those occasions.

We are all quite aware of their policies in several areas in which they do what they want, and not what we want.

They may make a statement about percentages, but I doubt they actually are doing more than guessing.

Oh, come on. They're not dumb. They just made a business decision you don't like. Yes, they have been known to push users. They started this with the elimination of floppy drives. But even that was still a calculated risk. They realized that with e-mail, not many people really needed floppy drives anymore, just like not many people need express card slots (not the express cards are obsolete...I realize that's different).

Quote:

You can be sure they think about the changes they make, but the reasons they make them may not be the reasons you think they are. It could very well be that Apple wanted to get rig of the expensive, and roomy Express socket and circuitry and replace it with this because they THINK it will result in higher sales and lower costs. They may be right, but they may be wrong about the sales. The lower prices of the models will help sales, but the difference from the Express port may not contribute much to that.

This looks to me to be as much a matter of maintaining margins in an era of lower prices computers from them than anything else.

Who cares. They did it because they realized that it wouldn't adversely affect sales. Of course, they aren't perfect. They could be wrong, but they are usually not given how their sales over the last 10 years.

Quote:

now whose making the silly remark? Of course they did!

You expect them to design a machine with ports that can't all be used at once? You expect that there are people who don't use them all at once? Because if you do, you'd be wrong. There are many instances where all the ports are in use at once, even if only a small percentage of pros need to do that. I shouldn't have to give you scenarios for this.

OK, now you're just parsing and nitpicking my argument instead of trying to grasp the overall point. Obviously you can physically use all the ports at once. I don't know how many people do, but you can...it's not outside the design spec. All I'm saying is that Apple did not design the machine to be a dockable workstation, where the machine is really just acting as a monitor and keyboard. To argue otherwise is just silly. Everything in their marketing shows that it's designed to:

--Edit photos and video with the internal HDD or external FW HDD
--Run pro software for audio, video and photo
--Run consumer software such as productivity apps and games.
--Sync with mobile devices
--Access internet, e-mail, etc.

That list is not intended to be exhaustive. They accomplish these goals by upgrading the processor, RAM, HDD and screen. Just look at their marketing. I don't see anything about mirrored drive arrays, multiple video decks, etc.

Quote:


That's not expensive. Laptops used to cost $7,000 for the better pro models. $3,000 is nothing. And that's taking inflation into account.

Disingenuous. The only one that cost that much was the absolutely loaded Wall Street model. And that didn't last long. I bought the top end Pismo for $3200. Unless you maxed out the RAM through Apple, you weren't going to spend $7K. Lots of people bought "pro" machines who were actually prosumers.

Quote:


I'm not saying that all pros use all ports all the time. But those that do, need them. It's always sad when a more sophisticated port goes away in favor of a much less useful one, esp. when the better port can be used for the simpler tasks, but not visa versa.

That makes sense.

Quote:



That's trivial. Buy a couple of $10 adapters. I can't see as how you think that having to need a dangling (expensive FW 800) CF card adapter is less important than your buying an 800 to 400 adapter. That's backwards thinking.

Do you really need to use a strawman tactic here? I never claimed it was more important or that my wishlist item was anything other than trivial. It was just a comment.

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We're not talking about millions of Macbook Pros. We're talking about hundreds of thousands per quarter. The biggie is the Macbook line.

I didn't specify quarterly or annually. Apple is selling about 10,000,000 macs per year (about 2.5 million per quarter). Of that, laptops account for 60%, or 6,000,000 units. I can't find breakout numbers, but let's assume they are selling 2,000,000 MBPs. To convince me that removing the port is a serious impediment for "pros," you'd have to show me sales of adapters of more than single digits...say 200,00 per year. Frankly, i'd be impressed if that number was 50,000 adapters, or 2.5% of the market.

Quote:

And OWC is far from the only outlets selling these adapters. As I mentioned, B&H sells them in large numbers. I'm sure all other outlets sell them as well. Maybe Apple sees one percent in their own stores, and that's where their numbers come from.

Now, because of the lower pricing, they will sell many more.

Who cares. Over the next year we could take several large adapter retailers and get their numbers. Then we'd know.
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post #220 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graeme View Post

Hi Didn't realise id cause this long discussion when i said the new 15" wouldn't be any good for me. ( i guess thats naivety for you

I'm really not using my MBP or FCP in a way it wasn't designed for- I'm really not.

You seem to have the impression all my ports are running red hot! and my computer is about to melt.

It's not that i need data streaming all day long through every orifice on my laptop- but at some point each day i will need access to all of them. so variety is important. and most of my tasks need something better than USB (better suited that is).

If i get a chance later - and it is of interest to you- ill list the actual kit I've got plugged in and the processes involved.

That was my quote, actually. But I wasn't claiming the ports were melting the machine...just that Apple is really not marketing its machine to people who use them like you do. That much is obvious. Don't get me wrong...I would be irritated if I was you. You had a machine that could do x, y and z, and now it can only do x and perhaps y. My issue is with your comments was the claim that Apple designed these machines specifically for the kind of thing you do...which is not true. That doesn't mean the laptop won't work just fine...it's just that their data shows that you are not a large part of their market (not your field...just your connectivity needs).
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post #221 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Oh, come on. They're not dumb. They just made a business decision you don't like. Yes, they have been known to push users. They started this with the elimination of floppy drives. But even that was still a calculated risk. They realized that with e-mail, not many people really needed floppy drives anymore, just like not many people need express card slots (not the express cards are obsolete...I realize that's different).

They're not dumb. But you're making an assumption you shouldn't.


Quote:
Who cares. They did it because they realized that it wouldn't adversely affect sales. Of course, they aren't perfect. They could be wrong, but they are usually not given how their sales over the last 10 years.

Now you're going back on what you just said. Over the past five years or so their sales have been very good. Past that timeframe, not so good.

The iPod is what made them what they are today, and they didn't understand just what they had at first. Once they did, they took good advantage of it. But they fall into things.

Quote:
OK, now you're just parsing and nitpicking my argument instead of trying to grasp the overall point. Obviously you can physically use all the ports at once. I don't know how many people do, but you can...it's not outside the design spec. All I'm saying is that Apple did not design the machine to be a dockable workstation, where the machine is really just acting as a monitor and keyboard. To argue otherwise is just silly. Everything in their marketing shows that it's designed to:

--Edit photos and video with the internal HDD or external FW HDD
--Run pro software for audio, video and photo
--Run consumer software such as productivity apps and games.
--Sync with mobile devices
--Access internet, e-mail, etc.

That list is not intended to be exhaustive. They accomplish these goals by upgrading the processor, RAM, HDD and screen. Just look at their marketing. I don't see anything about mirrored drive arrays, multiple video decks, etc.

What does a dockable workstation have to do with anything? You can't just make up a product class for them and say that if their products don't meet YOUR standards of what they should be, then they don't meet some indescribable level of performance and usability that YOU have determined they should if they are to be considered to be something that YOU say they are not.

Deal with reality.

9quote]
Disingenuous. The only one that cost that much was the absolutely loaded Wall Street model. And that didn't last long. I bought the top end Pismo for $3200. Unless you maxed out the RAM through Apple, you weren't going to spend $7K. Lots of people bought "pro" machines who were actually prosumers. [/quote]

You haven;t been around much, have you? Apple's top Powerbooks cost around that price for years, and some PC models cost even more. These weren't some special souped up models either.
9quote0
Do you really need to use a strawman tactic here? I never claimed it was more important or that my wishlist item was anything other than trivial. It was just a comment. [/quote]

You know, you can't complain about some minor thing, and then claim that I'm setting up a strawman situation when I mention, in response, something far more important that I wouldn't have mentioned at all if you had not complained in the first place. Do you think that your minor problems are more important than others' more important ones?

Just respond, and don't pretend that the issues I bring up are less important than the ones you bring up.

If you keep doing that it will only continue to show that you don't have much of an argument in response.

Quote:
I didn't specify quarterly or annually. Apple is selling about 10,000,000 macs per year (about 2.5 million per quarter). Of that, laptops account for 60%, or 6,000,000 units. I can't find breakout numbers, but let's assume they are selling 2,000,000 MBPs. To convince me that removing the port is a serious impediment for "pros," you'd have to show me sales of adapters of more than single digits...say 200,00 per year. Frankly, i'd be impressed if that number was 50,000 adapters, or 2.5% of the market.

I don't care if you're impressed or not. You obviously aren't familiar with the pro market for these machines, and so I am beginning to think there's not much point in continuing this.

Quote:
Who cares. Over the next year we could take several large adapter retailers and get their numbers. Then we'd know.

You're right, who cares.

I'm dropping it.
post #222 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

That was my quote, actually. But I wasn't claiming the ports were melting the machine...just that Apple is really not marketing its machine to people who use them like you do. That much is obvious. Don't get me wrong...I would be irritated if I was you. You had a machine that could do x, y and z, and now it can only do x and perhaps y. My issue is with your comments was the claim that Apple designed these machines specifically for the kind of thing you do...which is not true. That doesn't mean the laptop won't work just fine...it's just that their data shows that you are not a large part of their market (not your field...just your connectivity needs).

Sorry about that- not sure what happened there- have put your name back in.

Didn't get a chance to day to list my spec- too much to do- but prob not going to move any discussion along anyway.

Not that i Buy Turnkey systems- but everywhere with new stock has dropped the 15" from there list of FCP deals. so no the 15" is probably no longer aimed at serious FCP users away from there desktops. hope they sort the ports out in the future as they are great machines. - hope your enjoying yours.
post #223 of 239
Other companies separate "Business" from "Home/Consumer" classes.This way they can offer shiny and colorful machines to college kids and soccer dads. The Business Class range from simple stripped down notebooks to powerhouse dual HD, 4Dimm slots Quad core notebooks. They also offer non-gaming higher end workstation chips if you chose to dish out the money for them.

Now Apple has blurred the two lines together, stripped expandability/non-shinebox glass screen options on the 13/15 "Pro" and still don't offer options other manufacturers have on the 17in (The one people like me are now 'supposed to buy'). I honestly don't care if it is called the PRO or HappyTime Funbox just give me the features the competition has had for years now don't take MORE of them away!

I know it makes sense because they are raking in the cash like Robber Barons but using PRO was a marketing tool that separated the features, now PRO has no meaning at all so why even use it? Just to make everyone feel a sense of elitism to separate them from their friends and family?
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post #224 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

They're not dumb. But you're making an assumption you shouldn't.

So my *assumption* that they actually know their market is unreasonable? Instead, we should take your assumption...that they actually just pull these changes out of their asses with nothing to back it up in terms of research? Righto.

Quote:




Now you're going back on what you just said. Over the past five years or so their sales have been very good. Past that timeframe, not so good.

I don't see how I'm doing that.

Quote:
The iPod is what made them what they are today, and they didn't understand just what they had at first. Once they did, they took good advantage of it. But they fall into things.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to make that rather obvious and rhetorical point. The only thing I can infer is that you are claiming Apple would not be successful without the iPod. I don't want to strawman that point, but I need to ask you if that's what you meant?

My take is that Apple was successful long before the iPod. Granted, the iPod opened their business in ways they couldn't have predicted...from branding to sales of the unit itself, to iTunes.

Quote:


What does a dockable workstation have to do with anything? You can't just make up a product class for them and say that if their products don't meet YOUR standards of what they should be, then they don't meet some indescribable level of performance and usability that YOU have determined they should if they are to be considered to be something that YOU say they are not.

Deal with reality.

There you go again...you're nitpicking every little word choice instead of focusing on what the overall meaning is. The point is Apple didn't design the MBP to do what Graeme is doing. He's not their target market. How anyone could look at their overall marketing strategy and conclude otherwise is beyond me.

But what's ironic is that you just accused me of this:

Quote:
....You can't just make up a product class for them and say that if their products don't meet YOUR standards of what they should be, then they don't meet some indescribable level of performance and usability that YOU have determined they should if they are to be considered to be something that YOU say they are not.

That's exactly what you and Graeme are doing. You're saying "Hey, Apple. I was using a MBP as a desktop. Since I used it that way, that's what you designed it for. Now you changed your design and I have to use it like a powerful mobile workstation, instead of a desktop!" My lord.



Quote:
You haven;t been around much, have you? Apple's top Powerbooks cost around that price for years, and some PC models cost even more. These weren't some special souped up models either.

I really don't know where you get your information. Visit apple-history.com and check out the prices going back to the first Powerbook. There are only a handful of models that go for that price. Even if you were correct, which you're not, you can't really be claiming that the machine was for only true pros or even that mostly pros bought them.

Quote:


You know, you can't complain about some minor thing, and then claim that I'm setting up a strawman situation when I mention, in response, something far more important that I wouldn't have mentioned at all if you had not complained in the first place. Do you think that your minor problems are more important than others' more important ones?

Just respond, and don't pretend that the issues I bring up are less important than the ones you bring up.

If you keep doing that it will only continue to show that you don't have much of an argument in response.

I just posted that no, I don't think my comment on what I'd like to see is more important. Are you even reading? And I wasn't complaining. I was noting that it would be nice to have FW400. The difference is I realize it's not a big deal. I also realize that design moves on. Apparently you don't, because you're still stuck on features that less than 5 percent of people use. At most.

Quote:


I don't care if you're impressed or not. You obviously aren't familiar with the pro market for these machines, and so I am beginning to think there's not much point in continuing this.

You're right, who cares.

I'm dropping it.

Right...don't respond, just run away. I'm asking you to support your assertions with data, and you won't. I even went so far as to estimate and extrapolate some of the possible data points in my argument. If you can show that market is as large as you claim, then please do so. If not, then at least admit it's likely you're wrong.
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post #225 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graeme View Post

Sorry about that- not sure what happened there- have put your name back in.

Didn't get a chance to day to list my spec- too much to do- but prob not going to move any discussion along anyway.

Not that i Buy Turnkey systems- but everywhere with new stock has dropped the 15" from there list of FCP deals. so no the 15" is probably no longer aimed at serious FCP users away from there desktops. hope they sort the ports out in the future as they are great machines. - hope your enjoying yours.

Yeah, I am...thanks. That's interesting about the lack of 15"/FCP bundles. Is there anyway you could give a few examples?
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post #226 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by DdubRes79 View Post

Other companies separate "Business" from "Home/Consumer" classes.This way they can offer shiny and colorful machines to college kids and soccer dads. The Business Class range from simple stripped down notebooks to powerhouse dual HD, 4Dimm slots Quad core notebooks. They also offer non-gaming higher end workstation chips if you chose to dish out the money for them.

Now Apple has blurred the two lines together, stripped expandability/non-shinebox glass screen options on the 13/15 "Pro" and still don't offer options other manufacturers have on the 17in (The one people like me are now 'supposed to buy'). I honestly don't care if it is called the PRO or HappyTime Funbox just give me the features the competition has had for years now don't take MORE of them away!

I know it makes sense because they are raking in the cash like Robber Barons but using PRO was a marketing tool that separated the features, now PRO has no meaning at all so why even use it? Just to make everyone feel a sense of elitism to separate them from their friends and family?

See, I don't agree with that. They removed the card slot. Big deal. They realized that people using the machines weren't using the slots in great numbers. They didn't make it less of a "pro" machine. Here, take a look:

MacBook (Consumer):

2.13ghz Intel Core 2 Duo
2GB DDR2 Memory
160GB hard drive
NVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics
Standard keyboard
White polycarbonate shell
Two USB 2.0 Ports
One FW 400 Port
Ethernet/Wireless, etc.
$999

MacBook Pro 13" (higher end model)

2.53ghz Intel Core 2 Duo
4GB DDR2 Memory
250GB hard drive
NVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics
7 hour battery
Two USB 2.0 Ports
One FW 800 Port
Ethernet/Wireless, etc.
$1499

For $500, you get a unibody enclosure, 25% faster processor, larger HDD, FW800, a 7 hour built-in battery and twice the RAM.


Macbook Pro 15" Middle Config

2.66ghz Intel Core 2 Duo
4GB DDR2 Memory
320GB hard drive
NVIDIA GeForce 9400M +9600M GT 256MB
7 hour battery
Two USB 2.0 Ports
One FW 800 Port
Ethernet/Wireless, etc.
$1999

Macbook Pro 15 (best config without bto). I happen to own this model.

2.8ghz Intel Core 2 Duo
4GB DDR2 Memory
500GB hard drive
NVIDIA GeForce 9400M +9600M GT 512MB
7 hour battery
Two USB 2.0 Ports
One FW 800 Port
Ethernet/Wireless, etc.
$2299


For $500 more than the 13", you get a bigger HDD, better graphics and a speed bump. For another $300, you get twice the graphics memory, a faster processor and a 500GB HDD.


Now, tell me there isn't much distinction here. No one ever said "Pro" meant that only video editing professionals should buy the machine.
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post #227 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Yeah, I am...thanks. That's interesting about the lack of 15"/FCP bundles. Is there anyway you could give a few examples?

Only able to give current examples- i.e. only 17" + the usual desktops
(from a google search- i don't use these suppliers- never bought a turnkey system as with apple stuff you hardly ever make a meaningfull saving.)

http://www.tvprogear.com/catalog/App...pment,380.aspx

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/shop/6...y_Systems.html

http://www.powermax.com/parts/show/dv-pk-fcp-mobile

http://www.broadcaststore.com/store/...ory_search=734

http://www.finalcutpro4rent.com/


--------------
Here is a link to the raid set up i have:

http://www.sonnettech.com/product/fusiond500p.html

Marketed in part for the MBP / FCP - through an esata connection- with multiplier or their own cards PCi/express, i have the http://www.sonnettech.com/product/te...express34.html

It's a great box of tricks and the built in controllers take the strain off the computer.

At present, i have one of the 15" MBP's before they got the glossy screen (am not anti glossy- but like the matt screen) and has both FW400 & 800 ports built in. early 2008 i think?


the video deck at present is a Sony DSR-25 - DVCAM although that changes depending on the viddeo format im working on.

http://www.sony.ca/dvcam/pdfs/DSR-25.pdf


Did you say at some point you work with audio/music?
post #228 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

See, I don't agree with that. They removed the card slot. Big deal. They realized that people using the machines weren't using the slots in great numbers. They didn't make it less of a "pro" machine. Here, take a look:

Now, tell me there isn't much distinction here. No one ever said "Pro" meant that only video editing professionals should buy the machine.

Okay so you took one of examples why a lot of designers/video/audio/photo people feel shafted and spoke to it but where are the Matte options for the actual 'notebook' sized 13 and 15in? How do many users hook up their existing esata devices they already own because they used the express port? What if you wanted to hook up an HDV FW camera AND an external FW/Esata drive at the same time?

The point is Apple has made it clear that PRO means nothing (silly as it was to begin with) and if you are a design/film/audio/photo creative you should get the huge 17in and deal with it.. oh and give us $50 more for the matte option we know you want anyway.

NO ONE should argue that for 80% of the market the current MBP line is a fantastic machine, and I agree it is, but there is segment who has been around for over a decade that has slowly watched their options dwindle away. So yeah maybe we are whiny but then again no one has to read the comments either.
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post #229 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by DdubRes79 View Post

Okay so you took one of examples why a lot of designers/video/audio/photo people feel shafted and spoke to it but where are the Matte options for the actual 'notebook' sized 13 and 15in? How do many users hook up their existing esata devices they already own because they used the express port? What if you wanted to hook up an HDV FW camera AND an external FW/Esata drive at the same time?

The point is Apple has made it clear that PRO means nothing (silly as it was to begin with) and if you are a design/film/audio/photo creative you should get the huge 17in and deal with it.. oh and give us $50 more for the matte option we know you want anyway.

NO ONE should argue that for 80% of the market the current MBP line is a fantastic machine, and I agree it is, but there is segment who has been around for over a decade that has slowly watched their options dwindle away. So yeah maybe we are whiny but then again no one has to read the comments either.

Look, I understand that there are people who are annoyed. I would be as well. But the number of those people is very small. Apple itself says the total number of people who use ExpressCard at all is "single digit." Imagine how low the number is for people that want to do what you're describing? It's sure as hell isn't 20%. The MBP is a fantastic machine for at least 95% of the market. Add to that people who "need" the matte version and it becomes infinitesimal. As an aside, having used the matte and glossy screens in multiple environments for different uses, I can say that the glossy screen is so much better it's not even funny.

Getting back to "pro:" I contend that for the vast majority of pro users, the machine is great.

Quote:
...How do many users hook up their existing esata devices they already own because they used the express port? What if you wanted to hook up an HDV FW camera AND an external FW/Esata drive at the same time?

1. They aren't being forced to upgrade.
2. Since you're basically talking about desktop functionality, is the 17" such a bad option?
3. Can't USB 2.0 solutions work as well? They run at sufficient speeds for video.
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post #230 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graeme View Post

Only able to give current examples- i.e. only 17" + the usual desktops
(from a google search- i don't use these suppliers- never bought a turnkey system as with apple stuff you hardly ever make a meaningfull saving.)

http://www.tvprogear.com/catalog/App...pment,380.aspx

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/shop/6...y_Systems.html

http://www.powermax.com/parts/show/dv-pk-fcp-mobile

http://www.broadcaststore.com/store/...ory_search=734

http://www.finalcutpro4rent.com/


--------------
Here is a link to the raid set up i have:

http://www.sonnettech.com/product/fusiond500p.html

Marketed in part for the MBP / FCP - through an esata connection- with multiplier or their own cards PCi/express, i have the http://www.sonnettech.com/product/te...express34.html

It's a great box of tricks and the built in controllers take the strain off the computer.

At present, i have one of the 15" MBP's before they got the glossy screen (am not anti glossy- but like the matt screen) and has both FW400 & 800 ports built in. early 2008 i think?


the video deck at present is a Sony DSR-25 - DVCAM although that changes depending on the viddeo format im working on.

http://www.sony.ca/dvcam/pdfs/DSR-25.pdf


Did you say at some point you work with audio/music?


Thanks for the links. Let me ask...would an additional FW800 port make you happy? I also notice that the majority of those bundles are desktops. That's either because the new MBPs suck that much, or desktops are more suited to the task of serious video editing with external drives and decks.

As for me, I'm a music teacher, actually. I do work with audio, but it's not sophisticated. I use my internal drive (now 500GB, which is more than enough for me). Any video editing I do is done with consumer level software and hardware. Here again though, I would think that unless you need to store 400GB or more at a time, you'd be fine with using the internal drive as long as you backed up the work. Or, one could easily use a USB 2.0 1TB drive, which goes for about $100. That would leave you one more USB port and a FW800 port, plus ethernet. Right?
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post #231 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Look, I understand that there are people who are annoyed. I would be as well. But the number of those people is very small. Apple itself says the total number of people who use ExpressCard at all is "single digit."

Fine I understand that and I even stated that I understand I (and others) are in the minority here but I wasn't polled on the EC, none of my pro buddies were either so I guess our votes don't count. Who did they poll? How did they poll? Where did they poll? First rule of statistics and poling is that you can find infinite ways to make the data say what you want it to say. If you polled only creative teams it would be 90% but if you only polled married couples over 50 yrs of age then you would get 1%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Imagine how low the number is for people that want to do what you're describing? It's sure as hell isn't 20%. The MBP is a fantastic machine for at least 95% of the market. Add to that people who "need" the matte version and it becomes infinitesimal.

That is why Dell, HP, and Lenovo all offer 'business class' machines and portable workstations with mattes screens, actual workstation class graphics cards, 4+ USB ports / FW / ESATA? I guess they only sell a handful a year to all of us 1%. You might as well say 11ty Billion customers love the new MBP because if we are going to just make up numbers I can too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

As an aside, having used the matte and glossy screens in multiple environments for different uses, I can say that the glossy screen is so much better it's not even funny. Getting back to "pro:" I contend that for the vast majority of pro users, the machine is great. 1

And I'm supposed to change my preference because you say so? Now that you mention it I agree! *sarcasm*

1. They aren't being forced to upgrade. Unless, like me, you need a portable but they offer nothing you want. Sucks to be me I know and that isn't yours or anyone else problem but still an issue for me and many other creative types.
2. Since you're basically talking about desktop functionality, is the 17" such a bad option? Yes it is too large for a portable machine, won't fit on a tray in coach while traveling and doesn't even offer things like 4 dimm slots, 2x hard drive bays or more ports compared to the competition to justify the size/cost
3. Can't USB 2.0 solutions work as well? They run at sufficient speeds for video.[/QUOTE] No because USB has terrible sustained bandwidth even compared to FW400 let alone FW800 or ESATA. Plus HDV and most older cameras use FW not USB. (I know AVCHD use USB)
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post #232 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

As for me, I'm a music teacher, actually. I do work with audio, but it's not sophisticated. I use my internal drive (now 500GB, which is more than enough for me). Any video editing I do is done with consumer level software and hardware. Here again though, I would think that unless you need to store 400GB or more at a time, you'd be fine with using the internal drive as long as you backed up the work. Or, one could easily use a USB 2.0 1TB drive, which goes for about $100. That would leave you one more USB port and a FW800 port, plus ethernet. Right?

You also have to understand many people have $10k invested in Apple hardware, software and Mac specific 3rd party hardware. If Apple continues this downward trend of taking away features we have relied on for years that doesn't just mean 'get a Dell and shut up' we'd have to get a new Desktop, notebook, PC versions of software and 3rd party hardware and basically re-invest thousands to switch to a platform we really don't want. Of course no one wants to do that but the trend has been pushing in this direction for a few years now (Taking away expansion, glassy screens, non-removable batteries and now a crippled SATA HD) and it is alarming.
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post #233 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by DdubRes79 View Post

Fine I understand that and I even stated that I understand I (and others) are in the minority here but I wasn't polled on the EC, none of my pro buddies were either so I guess our votes don't count. Who did they poll? How did they poll? Where did they poll? First rule of statistics and poling is that you can find infinite ways to make the data say what you want it to say. If you polled only creative teams it would be 90% but if you only polled married couples over 50 yrs of age then you would get 1%.

Who said anything about polling? As if that's the only way they can tell what's happening with the machines they sell?

Quote:

That is why Dell, HP, and Lenovo all offer 'business class' machines and portable workstations with mattes screens, actual workstation class graphics cards, 4+ USB ports / FW / ESATA? I guess they only sell a handful a year to all of us 1%. You might as well say 11ty Billion customers love the new MBP because if we are going to just make up numbers I can too.

Don't be an ass. You used the term "the market" in the context of the MBP market, not the overall laptop market. Now, once you see your 80% number is complete bullshit, you change your tune. Get real.

Quote:



And I'm supposed to change my preference because you say so? Now that you mention it I agree! *sarcasm*

Just fucking relax. I was only stating my opinion from having used both. In fact, I've never met someone who has used both consistently that disagrees. Obviously you think that having a matte screen is some kind of pro status symbol.

Quote:

1. They aren't being forced to upgrade. Unless, like me, you need a portable but they offer nothing you want. Sucks to be me I know and that isn't yours or anyone else problem but still an issue for me and many other creative types.

What's wrong with your current portable?

Quote:
2. Since you're basically talking about desktop functionality, is the 17" such a bad option? Yes it is too large for a portable machine, won't fit on a tray in coach while traveling and doesn't even offer things like 4 dimm slots, 2x hard drive bays or more ports compared to the competition to justify the size/cost

So you need to connect the additional peripherals on an airplane? So you want 37 different ports, and MB Air like size. Righto.

Quote:

3. Can't USB 2.0 solutions work as well? They run at sufficient speeds for video. No because USB has terrible sustained bandwidth even compared to FW400 let alone FW800 or ESATA. Plus HDV and most older cameras use FW not USB. (I know AVCHD use USB)

That's fair enough. I was just asking.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DdubRes79 View Post

You also have to understand many people have $10k invested in Apple hardware, software and Mac specific 3rd party hardware. If Apple continues this downward trend of taking away features we have relied on for years that doesn't just mean 'get a Dell and shut up' we'd have to get a new Desktop, notebook, PC versions of software and 3rd party hardware and basically re-invest thousands to switch to a platform we really don't want. Of course no one wants to do that but the trend has been pushing in this direction for a few years now (Taking away expansion, glassy screens, non-removable batteries and now a crippled SATA HD) and it is alarming.


There you go again with the glossy screens. Really, I want to know what your issue is with them. Secondly, the "crippled" SATA will run at the same speed. The battery lasts twice as long as they used to, so who cares if it's removable?

Apple adds and removes features based on what will sell and what is innovative. While I can understand wanting another FW port, the removal of Express doesn't affect that many people. It's not Apple's fault that 1. You think you need more than you do, 2) You are using portables like desktops and 3) Your expectations are unreasonable.
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post #234 of 239
http://www.apple.com/pro/

Take a look at some of the folks here and what they are doing. Many of them are utilizing the MBPs for exactly these type of things.

http://www.apple.com/logicstudio/action/

Take a look at what a lot of musicians are doing. Most of which are using MBPs. Nine Inch Nail's Year Zero album was largely composed on a laptop, both with soft synths and DAW, as well as plugging guitars and such in. The video about Mainstage shows them running their entire live show off of a MBP.

Glossy screens have lots of data, of various levels of thoroughness, regarding studies involving eyestrain and such. I don't work w/color matching myself so I can't speak to whether glossy or matte does the job better.

MBP as desktop replacements>That is exactly how they have been marketed for years, especially the top end model. Also I don't think he was saying a laptop needs all those ports and to be as slim as the Air, but my impression is that a 15" laptop fits fine on the tray, whereas a 17" does not.
post #235 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSquirrel View Post

http://www.apple.com/pro/

Take a look at some of the folks here and what they are doing. Many of them are utilizing the MBPs for exactly these type of things.

http://www.apple.com/logicstudio/action/

Take a look at what a lot of musicians are doing. Most of which are using MBPs. Nine Inch Nail's Year Zero album was largely composed on a laptop, both with soft synths and DAW, as well as plugging guitars and such in. The video about Mainstage shows them running their entire live show off of a MBP.

Glossy screens have lots of data, of various levels of thoroughness, regarding studies involving eyestrain and such. I don't work w/color matching myself so I can't speak to whether glossy or matte does the job better.

MBP as desktop replacements>That is exactly how they have been marketed for years, especially the top end model. Also I don't think he was saying a laptop needs all those ports and to be as slim as the Air, but my impression is that a 15" laptop fits fine on the tray, whereas a 17" does not.

First, I am a musician. There is nothing that the MBP cannot do for most musicians. And don't start with "a lot of musicians." That is utterly vague. You have no idea what that means.

Secondly, the difference between a glossy and matte screen is more than obvious. It doesn't take a photographer to know that glossy wins, hands down. Just look at the difference.

http://www.onedigitallife.com/images...y-vs-matte.jpg

From Popular Mechanics:

Quote:
Q: I've noticed that some flat-panel LCDs have glossy screens, while others have matte screens. Is there any advantage to one versus the other?

A: Each screen has its advantages and disadvantages, which is why manufacturers waver between the two. Glossy screens produce an image that's generally regarded as "richer." Admittedly, that's a nebulous term, but essentially it means there is more color depth and vibrancy. On the downside, glossy screens are more susceptible to glare, reflecting light from windows and light bulbs. And they tend to show fingerprints and smudges more readily, especially when they are off.

Matte screens tend to handle glare better, due to a polarized coating over the glass that diffuses ambient light. A side effect of the matte finish is a slight blurring, reduced contrast and a narrower viewing angle.

The only disadvantage is glare. However, both have glare. In my experience, the glare on the glossy is easier to manage because one can see exactly where it is and where it is coming from. I bought a 2006 MBP with a matte screen (after much thought) and I ended up regretting it. I've even used my new MBP at school...under fluorescent lights with large windows behind me. Positioning the display was not an issue at all.

Concerning desktop replacements: That is simply not true. The MBP can act as a desktop replacement for some, but it's not intended to fully replace them for most users. Desktops are still much more powerful and have more connectivity options. That was true even before this update.

BTW, before anyone gets the idea that I'm an Apple Apologist, realize I've been here for 9 years and have been quite critical of Apple many times. This just isn't one of them. The MBP is fantastic.
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post #236 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


Well that's just silly. Apple doesn't take a whiz without a plan. They know who there users are. They don't just change a spec like this without thinking about it.


Hehe... so true. 99% of the time. We second guess Steve & Co. and then realize, yeah, they were right. Like getting ditching PPC, ditching the floppy, adding USB, etc etc. Every now and then they miss though...Wonder how the Hi Fi is doing on sales!
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post #237 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquatic View Post

Hehe... so true. 99% of the time. We second guess Steve & Co. and then realize, yeah, they were right. Like getting ditching PPC, ditching the floppy, adding USB, etc etc. Every now and then they miss though...Wonder how the Hi Fi is doing on sales!

Well, there is a difference between having a well thought out plan and always being right!
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post #238 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

First, I am a musician. There is nothing that the MBP cannot do for most musicians. And don't start with "a lot of musicians." That is utterly vague. You have no idea what that means.

"Lots of musicians" and then I link to, guess what, several musicians and otehr creative types exemplifying how they do their thing, most of which with a MBP involved.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Secondly, the difference between a glossy and matte screen is more than obvious. It doesn't take a photographer to know that glossy wins, hands down. Just look at the difference.

The question, and concern for some, is does the glossy screen alter the perception of colors to achieve the results it does. If it does, why would someone who needs careful color matching want to use it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Concerning desktop replacements: That is simply not true. The MBP can act as a desktop replacement for some, but it's not intended to fully replace them for most users. Desktops are still much more powerful and have more connectivity options. That was true even before this update.

BTW, before anyone gets the idea that I'm an Apple Apologist, realize I've been here for 9 years and have been quite critical of Apple many times. This just isn't one of them. The MBP is fantastic.

Apple's focus for several years has been on iPods/iPhones and laptops. How you don't need a desktop, you can just buy a laptop. How is that not positioning your MBP as a desktop replacement? I've read the marketing and watched the Stevenotes, the MBP has been pushed as a desktop replacement and still allow you to do everything you want to do. I really don't see how you could view it otherwise.

Will it be a desktop replacement for everyone? No. Some people will need the flexibility and expandability allowed by a desktop system. Most people tho aren't doing anything too taxing and don't need to be tied to a desk. I like the desktop system I have now and w/my daughters being the age they are so far, there hasn't been a huge need for a laptop. Here in a couple of years when I replace my desktop tho, I can very much see myself going the laptop route and my wife likely before that.
post #239 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSquirrel View Post

"Lots of musicians" and then I link to, guess what, several musicians and otehr creative types exemplifying how they do their thing, most of which with a MBP involved.

That doesn't speak to the kind of setups they have. Apple isn't advertising something their machines can't do. Obviously one can composer with a MBP. That's what it was designed for.

Quote:


The question, and concern for some, is does the glossy screen alter the perception of colors to achieve the results it does. If it does, why would someone who needs careful color matching want to use it?

If someone can show that it doesn't reproduce colors as accurately, that's fine. I haven't seen that, however.

Quote:

Apple's focus for several years has been on iPods/iPhones and laptops. How you don't need a desktop, you can just buy a laptop. How is that not positioning your MBP as a desktop replacement? I've read the marketing and watched the Stevenotes, the MBP has been pushed as a desktop replacement and still allow you to do everything you want to do. I really don't see how you could view it otherwise.

They are focusing on laptops because that's what the public has been buying. MOST people truly don't need a desktop. But "most" people doesn't include folks with the kind of connectivity needs described here. Consumers and prosumers don't need that. Folks who get into RAID setups and multiple video decks and what not really still need desktops. In other words, you are partially correct, I think. The MBP can be a desktop replacement for the majority of users...just not everyone.

Quote:

Will it be a desktop replacement for everyone? No. Some people will need the flexibility and expandability allowed by a desktop system. Most people tho aren't doing anything too taxing and don't need to be tied to a desk. I like the desktop system I have now and w/my daughters being the age they are so far, there hasn't been a huge need for a laptop. Here in a couple of years when I replace my desktop tho, I can very much see myself going the laptop route and my wife likely before that.

OK...it doesn't sound like we disagree then. However, keep in mind we're talking about people that are not in the majority of users. The issue is that there are those in this thread that think their needs represent a large market segment. They don't.
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