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Apple backtracks on Safari 4.0 tabs on top, ZFS - Page 3

post #81 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by kim kap sol View Post

Out of a billion people, 900 million favor Windows vs 75 million Mac and 25 million Linux and other OSes.

It's more like out of billion people 900 million prefer cheap things and use what ever is pre-installed on their computer, and because "everyone else does too".

Mac Pro, 8 Core, 32 GB RAM, nVidia GTX 285 1 GB, 2 TB storage, 240 GB OWC Mercury Extreme SSD, 30'' Cinema Display, 27'' iMac, 24'' iMac, 17'' MBP, 13'' MBP, 32 GB iPhone 4, 64 GB iPad 3

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Mac Pro, 8 Core, 32 GB RAM, nVidia GTX 285 1 GB, 2 TB storage, 240 GB OWC Mercury Extreme SSD, 30'' Cinema Display, 27'' iMac, 24'' iMac, 17'' MBP, 13'' MBP, 32 GB iPhone 4, 64 GB iPad 3

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post #82 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by kim kap sol View Post

Out of a billion people, 900 million favor Windows vs 75 million Mac and 25 million Linux and other OSes.

Out of the billion people I know, not one of them favors Windows. But you are right on the 75 million for Mac.
post #83 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

(Sorry to be shouting) I AGREE 100%!! IT MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE THAT THEY GOT RID OF THE 'RELOAD' BUTTON FROM THE TOP LEFT!!

I prefer the reload button where it is now, but they didnt have to remove it as an option from the Customize Toolbar setting. No offense, but you sound a lot like he-who-must-not-be-named in that post.


Quote:
Originally Posted by iVlad View Post

It was a Beta for a reason. Plus chrome already had it upwards. I think Apple didn't wanna copy that look and stay original.

That is a good point. Apple is quick to make changes in Beta but usually sticks with their decisions are the Beta is over. If we dont like surprise changes I guess we shouldnt jump into Betas so readily. Me, Im sticking with the Beta since Ive grown to like the tabs up top even though the plug0in sandboxing would probably come in handy since Im using SL.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #84 of 174
This site http://radar.weather.gov/Conus/full_loop.php will cause user input to be delayed nearly one second when the animation feature is active.

CPU usage will climb to 50%....90% while displaying this site.

Typing inputs for the "Report bugs to Apple" will be nearly one second behind real time.

Scrolling of the map will be delayed nearly one second resulting in a very jerky operation.

This problem has existed within WebKit off and on for over a year. There are other sites adversely affected depending on the current configuration of those sites. This erratic effect on site operations cause this to be a very difficult problem to isolate except for this particular site, which consistently displays the problem and has for about a year of nightly WebKit builds.
post #85 of 174
Taking away the Safari tabs on top is a huge loss to many consumers. And I completely fail to understand all those gleeful at the loss - I mean, how hard is it to change a preference setting back to the space-wasting bottom tabs, really??

Given the amount of our lives we spend in browser windows, maximizing useful screen space is just as important as maximizing the space in my tiny New York apartment. I have never rejoiced to much in response to software as when Safari 4 beta came out. Like a kid in a candy store. The easy ability to remove the usually-useless address bar with command pipe is great.

But the best improvement: Tabs on top, getting rid of useless title bar grey space!!!

Please bring back the tabs on top option. Please!

Honestly, it can't complicate the software much to default to the old wasteful bottom tabs and include a preference box for the rest of us space-loving tabs-on-top folks.

In the meantime, I'm back to Firefox, and hoping for Chrome soon.
post #86 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pascal007 View Post

I wonder if the apparent disinterest in ZFS is caused by the increasing popularity and availability of SSDs ? They have a reliability that disk drives don't have and when they fail, they fail : no checksum can help then. Meanwhile, my understanding is that SSDs have a life span limited by the amount of "writes" on each block. Maybe ZFS caused the boot block of SSDs to fail prematurely ?

I'm only wondering...

Hunh? Checksums help if you're using a mirrored or RAIDZ setup - the broken data will be repaired and relocated elsewhere, automatically. Also, the checksumming will point you to which files are affected by the breakage (with or without redundant setups, i.e. mirrors/RAIDZ).

Also, SSDs have wear leveling, so the writing to one spot thing doesn't really work that way at all.
post #87 of 174
Tabs on top the way Apple implemented them was pure genius. It was not like in Chrome.
Safari's tabs on top split the title bar, as if each tab was a window on its own. It was like having many mini windows side by side. Now with the final release I have all this wasted space on the right side of the tabs and on the title bar. It's a ridiculously inferior design.
Most analysts didn't even wait to see if people would get used to tabs on top, they behaved very amateurishly and selfishly. They helped spoil everything and are proud of it! What a shame.
post #88 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario View Post

It's more like out of billion people 900 million prefer cheap things and use what ever is pre-installed on their computer, and because "everyone else does too".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Out of the billion people I know, not one of them favors Windows. But you are right on the 75 million for Mac.

HEHE I was thinking the same thing.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #89 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by nautilus. View Post

... and also because it didn't quite fit in with the overall UI (no other program uses it).

There are other programs that make exceptions to the general UI rules though.

Preview for example is one of the most used programs in the OS but it strongly violates the OS-X document model in that it will load multiple documents into a single window. I think they could easily have just left it.
In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
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In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
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post #90 of 174
With regards to the missing "Reload" button; using the 'Command-r' works faster for me.

If I had a complaint, it is that the pages reload so fast that I just about missed the 'Reloading' wheel in the end of the address bar.

As for the progress bar, it doesn't do anything but tell you that the page is still loading. There is no relationship between how much the bar is filled and the amount that the page has completed or left to complete. In addition, just because the progress bar is halfway, does not mean that half the page has already loaded or that the time left to finish is halfway.

For example, if the progress bar has reached halfway in 10 seconds, there is no correlation that the page will be complete in another 10 seconds. It, in fact, could take the 'last half,' so to speak, to finish within a split second or minutes, or more.

Until every web page developer implements a standardized progress bar, accounts for every update, your IPS would have to be constant and a hundred other variables addressed, they are highly inaccurate and basically useless.
post #91 of 174
DID YOU NOTICE SAFARI 4 beta WENT FROM 13 to 68 Megs in the new S 4.0? Who needs an obese App?
Thats stupid! Everybodies all upset about getting the tabs to be the same as Safari3, which is part of using standards anyway. But to increase the size like its a Windows App is a crime! Shame on Apple. I tried the new version again today-for average news sites, it is the same, if not slower than the beta, so I used Time Machine and without rebooting my machine, I'm back to my modified Safari 4 beta, with everything reconfiged to be like Safari has always been. I have the stop/reload button in my toolbar and the tabs are regulation rectangles-on the bottom, with the close x on the left of each tab!!!.
Apple does great things, but confusing people with nonstandard changes for the seasoned user and corn feeding a app to bloating is more like Ballmers' style than Steve Jobs'.
post #92 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post

I liked the tabs on top a lot because it saved screen space.

Tabs on top also BOTHERED me a lot because I was always switching tabs by accident (or closing them!) when I only waned to click the title bar: a simple and common act according to system-wide convention.

So it was a wash--I could take them or leave them. Having the option would be nice, or better yet some third method (Chrome's way seems OK, or something yet to come).

That also annoyed me. The problem wasn't tabs on top but how it was designed. Chrome has a better implementation for it.
post #93 of 174
Apple just lost a sale of OS X Server with the removal of ZFS. I was going to upgrade my Mac Pro to OS X Server solely so that I would have ZFS to use across the internal drives, mapping the ZFS pool logical drive to my network for use (albeit slower) by my other systems.

Now it looks like I'm better off just buying a Drobo unit. Too bad.
post #94 of 174
Another vote for tabs on the bottom where they are now. It's more intuitive. I didn't have a problem with them on top, but I was pleased when I installed 4.0 and saw them back where they should be!

As for ZFS, I'm a bit annoyed that I won't be able to use this on my server. I was hoping we would see it in the consumer version of Snow Leopard. Surly all Intel Macs will be able to support it and Snow Leopard is for Intel Macs only anyway.
post #95 of 174
Count me in with those who liked the tabs on top. I wish Apple would at least give us the option, instead of deciding we don't need/want/like it!

When I opened a new tap this morning in Safari I couldn't help but say ugh and feel really disappointed. It may have taken a little bit of getting used to, but it sure was nice once you did!

Please someone come up with a plugin, or alteration that puts them back on top.

-Nathan
32GB iPod Touch 1G
Also work off of a 20" - 2.66GHz Intel Core 2 Duo - 750GB iMac
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32GB iPod Touch 1G
Also work off of a 20" - 2.66GHz Intel Core 2 Duo - 750GB iMac
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post #96 of 174
BRING BACK SAFARI 4 TABS ON TOP!!! There is no justification for this! They were extremely helpful for me! At least have the option!

ZFS is a massive loss. I was looking forward to ZFS on my laptop... I like the checksum and the small size of snapshots. Seriously Apple, at least make some sort of announcement...
post #97 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by MShock View Post

ZFS is a massive loss. I was looking forward to ZFS on my laptop... I like the checksum and the small size of snapshots. Seriously Apple, at least make some sort of announcement...

I'm sorry that AppleInsider elected to lump together a minor UI issue regarding Safari tabs to the apparent cancellation of ZFS support. I know passions can run high about whether tabs are at the top or bottom, but in the big scope of things, that just does not compare in magnitude to the loss of ZFS.

Apple is doing a disservice to its corporate customers and itself by not making an announcement about ZFS. Data Robotics would love to sell DROBO boxes. Other companies would like to sell NAS boxes or external RAIDs. Corporate customers need to know whether ZFS is officially dead, dormant, or just delayed so that they can plan, budget, and purchase accordingly.
post #98 of 174
Tabs back to where they rightfully belong, it's more than a UI issue it was a major usability issue. Apple should make it an option for those who "prefer" them on top. Forcing that MAJOR change was SOOOOOO WRONG! It required me to mouse all the way to the top right of the screen, WHAT FOR????
post #99 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexfischer View Post

As I mentioned in another thread. I vote for having the option to have tabs in the menubar, even if it is not the default.

Also, Safari has already crashed 3 times for me in the last day since I've updated. No-third party plug-ins or anything.

What are you running on? I can't even crash it on my old iBook G4 let alone my Mac Pro or MacBook Pro!
Use duckduckgo.com with Safari, not Google Search
Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
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Use duckduckgo.com with Safari, not Google Search
Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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post #100 of 174
Tabs on top has a couple of inconsistencies. The biggest for me is that when you click the title bar, it selects that tab. This is annoying when pulling the browser forward from the background.

It also places the close icon of the leftmost tab near the close buttons of the window leading to confusion over which you should press to close the last tab.

I did like the space it provided but I won't miss it. You may be able to set a plist option to put it back up top.

ZFS is a shame but I suspect there's just far too much dependent on HFS+ that the scale of the transition would be huge. Heck even Case insensitive vs Case sensitive and UFS cause problems let alone an entirely new system again.

If the benefits actually show up on the user level, it will probably be worked on to make the transition as painless as possible. They may have learned enough from what ZFS does to improve HFS+ to the point where ZFS isn't necessary.
post #101 of 174
So the beta of Safari 4 was pretty good and stable. This release is terrible. Takes forever to load the home page at start-up. Just tried CNN.com and it took 52 sec to load and at same time Firefox 2.5 sec. No plug-ins here either. I threw away all prefs, un-installed, re-applied the 10.5.7 combo updater, and re-installed, fixed permissions, and still poor performance. Any one know how to get a beta copy again?

Apple needs to fix this. Obviously computer/individual success or error, but when the beta works fine and the final version crashes....hmmmm
post #102 of 174
One major limitation of ZFS is that you can't grow a RAID Z volume one disk at a time. The developers at Sun say "Just add another zpool, what's the big deal?". But each zpool uses the equivalent of 1 disk to store parity information. So the more zpools you combine together, the more disk space you lose to parity. In contrast, a hardware RAID 5 array still uses at most 1 disk for parity, regardless of how often you expand it.
post #103 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmac25 View Post

... Apple needs to fix this. Obviously computer/individual success or error, but when the beta works fine and the final version crashes....hmmmm

I don't know the answer to your problems, but I do know that logic dictates that the source is your computer not Safari 4. if the majority of folks upgrading this morning are all fine (and they seem to be) and you have these crashes and slowness, Occam's Razor suggests it's something specific to your system that's the problem.
In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
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In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
Reply
post #104 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

One major limitation of ZFS is that you can't grow a RAID Z volume one disk at a time. The developers at Sun say "Just add another zpool, what's the big deal?". But each zpool uses the equivalent of 1 disk to store parity information. So the more zpools you combine together, the more disk space you lose to parity. In contrast, a hardware RAID 5 array still uses at most 1 disk for parity, regardless of how often you expand it.

Replace "zpool" with "vdev" and you're right on track.
You can have multiple RAIDZ vdevs in a zpool, but never ever a pool in a pool.

Also, the developers at Sun says that they're working on adding devices to RAIDZ vdevs, not "what's the big deal". They've been saying that for a long time, though...
post #105 of 174
Enter Time Machine... Jun 7, 2009... /Macintosh HD/Applications... Safari.app... Restore...

Oh, what a lovely tabs on top user experience!

2 minutes... Everything's allright.

We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #106 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleGuy'91 View Post

Count me in with those who liked the tabs on top. I wish Apple would at least give us the option, instead of deciding we don't need/want/like it!

When I opened a new tap this morning in Safari I couldn't help but say ugh and feel really disappointed. It may have taken a little bit of getting used to, but it sure was nice once you did!

Please someone come up with a plugin, or alteration that puts them back on top.

-Nathan

I am waiting as well.

In the meantime, you may want to try the following sequence, particularly if you like to view your favorite set of sites often.

Clean Sarfari Desktop
  • Command-shift-b
  • Command-/
  • Command-shift-\\
Better, use Automator toggles the above action on the top Safari window:
  • Launch Application: Safari
  • Type Keystroke: Command-shift-b
  • Type Keystroke: Command-/
  • Type Keystroke: Command-shift-\\
  • Save as an application
Even better yet, I created the following Hint* using Quickeys to select and reload specific sets of tabs with one keystroke.

*http://www.macosxhints.com/article.p...ri%2Bbookmarks
post #107 of 174
Is it now safe to enable Java Applet?
Cubist
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post #108 of 174
Especially for 1024x600 displays. You know what I mean.
post #109 of 174
FWIW:

I didn't like the tabs on top with Safari beta 4 and I found a post by Marvin on 02-28-2009 that suggested this site:

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/41555/140/

Under that site, I found the following article. It put the tabs in their "regular" position. I tried it and it worked.
I don't know if this would work to put the tabs on top for Safari 4.0 or not, but someone can try it - maybe with some possible modification.
=====================

Users running Safari in OS X are in for a treat because they are not require to edit the com.apple.Safari.plist file directly. Instead, you change preference setting with commands invoked in Terminal. For instance, to move the tabs bar to its regular position, you simply type the following command in Terminal (NOTE: The text here should be input on one line, it is divided into two lines for display purposes only):

defaults write com.apple.Safari
DebugSafari4TabBarIsOnTop -bool NO

Consequently, to move the tabs bar back to window's top, you need to change the value from NO to YES by typing the following command in Terminal.

defaults write com.apple.Safari
DebugSafari4TabBarIsOnTop -bool YES
*
If you want to set a preference setting to its default value, simply run the defaults command with the delete flag for a wanted preference item. In case of above mentioned tabs bar placement, you would type the following command in Terminal:

defaults delete com.apple.Safari
DebugSafari4TabBarIsOnTop
*
Note: The defaults command doesn't require you to include the -bool NO part.

==============


Maybe someone could try this in reverse and let us know if it works.

If it does work, the credit goes to Marvin. If it fails, blame me.
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post #110 of 174
Will someone please explain what is meant by the "loss" of ZFS? I'm not aware that OS X ever had it. Also, which posters who are lamenting the non-inclusion of ZFS have actually used it or is the familiarity simply from reading some feature/benefit page?

Regarding Safari 4 and tabs, I never became comfortable with tabs on top. I've been a Mac user for 21 years (I think) and to change the function of the title bar threw all of my learned notions about the Mac interface right out the window.
post #111 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post

Will someone please explain what is meant by the "loss" of ZFS? I'm not aware that OS X ever had it. Also, which posters who are lamenting the non-inclusion of ZFS have actually used it or is the familiarity simply from reading some feature/benefit page?

They promised to bring ZFS officially to Snow Leopard server, and on a mailing list unofficially for the client. ZFS is in Leopard, but read-only, with a not-too-stable RW implementation available on zfs.macosforge.org.

FWIW, I've used ZFS, yes. I use it on a FreeBSD box that I plan to use as a server when 8.0 is released (I'm running 8-CURRENT atm, which is the bleeding edge development version). Also used it on Solaris 10.
Three words: ZFS is awesome.
Once you've used it for a while, you really, really miss it everywhere else, and I was really looking forward to having it on my MBP (with /Users on ZFS and the rest on HFS+) later this year. Looks like that future is a bit uncertain now, at best.
post #112 of 174
I don't find it surprising that since Oracle bought Sun we don't see ZFS.
post #113 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmac25 View Post

So the beta of Safari 4 was pretty good and stable. This release is terrible. Takes forever to load the home page at start-up. Just tried CNN.com and it took 52 sec to load and at same time Firefox 2.5 sec. No plug-ins here either. I threw away all prefs, un-installed, re-applied the 10.5.7 combo updater, and re-installed, fixed permissions, and still poor performance. Any one know how to get a beta copy again?

Apple needs to fix this. Obviously computer/individual success or error, but when the beta works fine and the final version crashes....hmmmm

I'd check your plugins.
post #114 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by retiarius View Post

Although ZFS has been around for almost five years at Sun, sometimes it's
still treated as a research project.

E.g. to answer (real or perceived) threats from storage competitors like NetApp,
Sun is now playing with de-duplication, a marketing checkbox item for some,
but for others like ZFS principal Jeff Bonwick a thing to get right (i.e. done at the
block level). There is still an unresolved Sun/NetApp patent lawsuit which
may be taking Apple hostage, even though (old) Sun indemnifies ZFS users
against patent trolls.

As well, others are still experimenting with checksum methods, not only for
various time/space tradeoffs but to address potential mathematical flaws in
the mappings. Apple would have to carry around all the experimental baggage
for the sake of compatibility if they rolled it out now.

Other bits: compression methods are overrated since the stuff taking up the
most space (video, photos, and audio) are already compressed. Further, Apple
may still be working on an in-place HFS+ to ZFS converter for the masses, now
made more complicated by new choices.

Lastly, I always (mistakenly) thought that Apple was going to expand into enterprise
server land via purchase of Sun, a make-vs.-buy decision which they could have
done with a fraction of their cash horde. Now we've seen that Sun's customer lists
are more valuable to Oracle than others, and that Apple has minimized the use
of Java for their gear. Apple remains the highest-volume shipper of Unix.
To me, it is amazing to see them do this via clever layering to keep their goodies
from disturbing the various NIH-syndrome components they utilize.

you've got some really good points here!

Still, I'd like to see Apple roll out some kind of updated filesystem for their products sometime soon.
post #115 of 174
I think Apple made a wise choice by moving the tabs back from the top. I never got used to them being on the top, it was just not intuitive and consistent to the overall UI.
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post #116 of 174
I actually had gotten used to the tabs on top feature and I find myself missing it now. But I'm having a hard time finding how to drag a window into another tab bar. I see the merge all windows option in the window menus, but where's the tear tab to drag a single window into another?
post #117 of 174
I immediately found a hack for the tabs on the beta to put them back on the bottom. I do agree it should be an option for the user.

I also found a hack for the blue progress bar return. I use 4.0 for the speed improvements not for the UI tweaks!
post #118 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post

Will someone please explain what is meant by the "loss" of ZFS? I'm not aware that OS X ever had it.

It's been in the pre-release builds of 10.6 (Snow Leopard) OS X Server for months and had been touted as a feature with speculation that it would migrate into the client OS in 10.7. Many of us have been waiting for it for over two years when the first versions started showing up in Leopard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post

Also, which posters who are lamenting the non-inclusion of ZFS have actually used it or is the familiarity simply from reading some feature/benefit page?

I've never tried it. I'm just an ignorant yahoo who gets all worked up about feature/benefit lists and buzzwords on web pages.

Oh, wait... That's not right. Now I remember. I've used ZFS under OpenSolaris to get familiar with the technology, concepts, and administration. I've read whitepapers from Sun on it, technical articles on it, and seen many of the Sun presentations and videos on the technology. I've been researching what it would take, cost-wise, to put together an OpenSolaris, hot-swappable, ZFS external array of SATA drives that ran over gigabit Ethernet. It's all come back to me now.

Perhaps you could work on reducing the condescension in your posts and I could try to back off on the sarcasm in my replies. Deal?
post #119 of 174
I'm really glad that tabs are back in the regular place. I tried Safari four but I just did not like the tabs at the top. I felt like I never knew how many windows were open and I felt "lost". Hence I tended to stick with Firefox even though it is as slow as molasses.
post #120 of 174
I liked the tabs up top. Really should be an option
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