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New 13" MacBook Pro drops digital audio input for FireWire and SD - Page 2

post #41 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat View Post

Did anyone use the audio in port? Most pro audio users have other means of input, mainly outboard usb boxes, but mainly firewire ones. If anything, the addition of firewire is far better for the pros than anything else.

I have a Line 6 X3 Live modeling pedal (basically digital guitar effects, amps and cabinets for my Strats) that I pipe the S/PDIF digital output (stereo) through a digital coax->optical converter and in through the toslink optical digital audio input of my BlackBook to Logic. Its a very good digital signal, so no need to go to analog only to roundtrip back to digital again.

Yes, any "standard" analog goes through my FW-based MOTU UltraLite mk3 (which also does MIDI in via FW) -- except for vocals and mic'ed acoustic guitars which get the Apogee Duet treatment.

But its far cleaner to just take the digital signal from the modeling pedal completely digital into Logic. And even with a 2.2GHz BlackBook I can simultaneously feed digital audio in and one of the FW audio interfaces.

So yes, FW audio interfaces are tha shiznit, but digital audio inputs have their place in many budget mobile recording rigs.

I readily admit that the way I use this is an outlier (OTOH, its part of why I switched to the Mac platform). I will say that I don't really mind this going missing in the 13" MacBook (Pro) as long as the other MBPs continue to support it.

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post #42 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterspan View Post

Hey, I just had an interesting thought.

Does anyone have any in-depth knowledge of Firewire 3200? All of the cables, connectors, and ports are visibly identical right? Have suppliers pushed out working silicon yet? Has anyone seen a tear-down of the new Macbook Pros?

I know it's highly unlikely, but is there any way the new MB pros could be FW3200 compatible? Even with a firmware upgrade? Wouldn't that be an awesome surprise? Like 802.11N!

Yes FW3200 shares the same 9-circuit board so I guess the link layer is basically the same. The lack of FW3200 announcements makes me wonder if some vendor will just come out with a surprise as well.
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post #43 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

I don't buy the notion that Apple drops a port because they had to to add another port (in this case and many others). There are plenty of machines out there that have both ports and more - can we drop the charade of "but apple had no choice!"

If apple really wanted to keep both, they could have made it happen.

And the feature that defines the mac experience is really FireWire Target Mode? Really? Sure, it's cool, but it Defines the Experience?

You hit it on the head. I have my MBP, but bought an Acer Aspire One for travel to Africa this past winter. That sucker has more ports than I know what to do with. It rocks! I'm going to turn it into a Hacintosh. I'm really happy to see the SD slot and the FW800. Those are two things that I use regularly, but on my two diff lap tops.
post #44 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunks View Post

I used it to muck around in garageband. Basically I'd play a song through iTunes then use a male to male audio cord I had lying around to feed it back into the input on the same laptop and sample the song in garageband. Then I'd chop it up for shits and giggles.

Unfortunately, you'll have to figure out another way to get your shits and giggles.
post #45 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

I don't like the idea of the dropped audio input port, this is just a slow slide against pro and audio creators in favor of locked down consumer machines.

The port is tiny, it could have gone anywhere, this is bullsh*t.

As a professional audio engineer I must attest that any onboard mic/line input on a laptop is never to be associated with professional quality Analog to Digital (A/D) convertors like that found in external audio interfaces like a Digidesign MBox. Consumers are the only ones that will be missing this dedicated input.

Whether or not you buy the argument that it had to go for lack of space is one thing, but from someone who bought their last macbook (not uni) stricktly for Logic Pro and Pro Tools usage, I would have no problem sacrificing a mic input in favor of FW800 and/or sd card reader.
post #46 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaInsider View Post

As a professional audio engineer I must attest that any onboard mic/line input on a laptop is never to be associated with professional quality Analog to Digital (A/D) convertors like that found in external audio interfaces like a Digidesign MBox. Consumers are the only ones that will be missing this dedicated input..

You do realize the digital audio input doesn't need an A/D converter in the first place, don't you?

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post #47 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

I don't like the idea of the dropped audio input port, this is just a slow slide against pro and audio creators in favor of locked down consumer machines.

Really? For me the lack of firewire on the previous version would have posed a far great problem.

I don't know ANYONE (professional or otherwise) who used the audio-in on older MacBooks. My AU$1000 10in/10out firewire audio interface, on the other hand, gets heavy usage, and meant that a MacBook upgrade was useless for me. (The 15" MBP is not suitable for me, for various reasons).

That said, I have no particular reason to upgrade anyway. My 2.5-year-old MacBook, on which I upgraded the hard disk and RAM last year, still has plenty of grunt. Despite the cracks in the black plastic, I can resist the urge to get a shiny aluminium replacement.
post #48 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

I have a Line 6 X3 Live modeling pedal (basically digital guitar effects, amps and cabinets for my Strats) that I pipe the S/PDIF digital output (stereo) through a digital coax->optical converter and in through the toslink optical digital audio input of my BlackBook to Logic. Its a very good digital signal, so no need to go to analog only to roundtrip back to digital again.

Yes, any "standard" analog goes through my FW-based MOTU UltraLite mk3 (which also does MIDI in via FW) -- except for vocals and mic'ed acoustic guitars which get the Apogee Duet treatment.

But its far cleaner to just take the digital signal from the modeling pedal completely digital into Logic. And even with a 2.2GHz BlackBook I can simultaneously feed digital audio in and one of the FW audio interfaces.

So yes, FW audio interfaces are tha shiznit, but digital audio inputs have their place in many budget mobile recording rigs.

I readily admit that the way I use this is an outlier (OTOH, its part of why I switched to the Mac platform). I will say that I don't really mind this going missing in the 13" MacBook (Pro) as long as the other MBPs continue to support it.

No S/PDIF on your FW interface? I run my X3 Live into my FA101 (also with the help of a co-ax/optical converter). It would be nice if Logic allowed me to use my FW interface simultaneously with the POD's USB connection.
post #49 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat View Post

Did anyone use the audio in port? Most pro audio users have other means of input, mainly outboard usb boxes, but mainly firewire ones. If anything, the addition of firewire is far better for the pros than anything else...

I have used the Mac's traditional Line in audio jack a number of times to take output from several audio/tape/stereo components/units to record digitally. Was great for converting some of my dolby cassette tapes to digital mp3/aac format. Good for those cases where I had not bought a CD version of the cassette tape, or where the original source was rare and never made the jump to being re-released on CD.
And I admit, I am not an "audio pro."

Quote:
Originally Posted by anaknipedro View Post

Actually, the new Makbook Pro 13" has an integrated audio in/out port. Read the tech specs on the website.

OK, I just went back and looked... http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/specs-13inch.html You are right -- it seems they indeed have combined analog audio in and out to one mini-jack port.
Well, that sort of works, but only if you don't want to use analog line in and speaker/headphone out at the same time. So technically, yes, it has audio input, but only if your audio in work is OK to do by listening on the tiny MacBook speakers...
Personally, I always use headphones when setting up, making, verifying recordings.

I am glad for the return of FireWire to the MacBookPro ne MacBook, make no mistake about that.

But Apple does have a habit of giving something with one hand, and taking a feature away with the other.
I think there must be a rule at Apple about that. Maybe a limit on the ''number' of ports or features?... Or maybe that one must always take something away when a new item is given/returned? \
Who can fathom their control issues...
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post #50 of 81
plugging an audio jack into a laptop is a BAD idea in my experience. anything you can do with a digital audio in can be done better and more safely with usb, very cheaply, these days
post #51 of 81
I liked the previous unibody 13" becasue of the ease at which you could switych internal harddrives...
Because you cannot easily sync laptop profiles with your desktop and the fact I share the old ub MB with the wife, I just superdupered my 2/5" spare drive with a hard disk dock and swap them out (I have a 300GB profile).

Does anyone know if you can still remove the harddrive or will it be a labourious task on the new MBP 13"?

Thanks
post #52 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

I think using optical media for storing data is a thing of the past mainly because they take forever to record data and it is cheaper to use other alternative (SD, USB flash drives, external HDD... etc). I see BluRay for video only not data for the previous reasons and personally I prefer watching HD movies on 32"+ display.

As long as sneaker net lives, there will be a market for a cheap storage device that allows for one use. $0.04 for a disk that I can burn and give someone VS a ~$20 flash chip that I would want back? no contest.
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post #53 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Young View Post

So technically, yes, it has audio input, but only if your audio in work is OK to do by listening on the tiny MacBook speakers...
Personally, I always use headphones when setting up, making, verifying recordings.

Not sure if I understand: you say that if you use the now unique audio port as input, you have to redirect the output elsewhere. Why then use the built-in speakers and not a USB headphones set?
post #54 of 81
My guess on why Apple has so much trouble fitting the ports.

1. It's likely that the DVD burner is taking a huge chunk of the side area. I really suggest that Apple to give a second option of removing the DVD burner and replace it with ExpressCard and digital audio input or whatsoever. Most users barely use the DVD player on the road, so getting rid of this dead weight makes sense.

2. Steve Jobs insists that no ports can be built in the front because of his aesthetic concern. This is just my wild guess, but entirely possible.
post #55 of 81
The DVD drive is on the right, the ports are on the left. The space isn't an issue because of the DVD drive, the battery and hard drive is probably whats taking the space.
post #56 of 81
so funny. when FW was dropped, Apple Insider wrote articles saying "consumers don't use firewire anyway", "apple removed it because we don't need it"

now they get rid of digital in, and "consumers don't use that anyway", "you can use usb mics or FW to get your audio in"

and FW is back, and "now you can get the mac experience of target disk mode again"
post #57 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidty View Post

No S/PDIF on your FW interface? I run my X3 Live into my FA101 (also with the help of a co-ax/optical converter). It would be nice if Logic allowed me to use my FW interface simultaneously with the POD's USB connection.

Yes, the UltraLite mk3 does S/PDIF in.

But I like not having to deal with the FW devices for jam sessions, I can record my guitar directly into Logic Express (and send the keyboard MIDI data through a cheapie USB MIDI device) and leave my other gear plugged into the MOTU in the home recording studio. Another reason to keep the BlackBook around I guess.

After years of hauling around a Hammond+Leslie in addition to guitars and amps/cabinets, these days I'm into keeping my rig as light and portable as possible.

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post #58 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by graxspoo View Post

Yes, I did. I liked being able to jack my guitar right into the MacBook for quick recordings. While I'm not thrilled with the new audio plug situation, I'm happy that FireWire is back. It sounds like if I had the right adapter I could still plug my guitar in... though I guess the jury is still out.

Your guitar or amp has digital outs? If that's the case, you can still use analog in.

I doubt there are many audio boxes these days that have digital audio out but no USB or firewire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by donlphi View Post

As for the audio ports, they were great for ripping audio files that couldn't be converted easily. I know there are other ways, but I used to run a 1/8" male to male into the audio out and in and just record commercials or random "not easily" converted audio files that way.

It sounds like you were doing an analog transfer. That hasn't gone away, just digital audio input.

Quote:
Originally Posted by graxspoo View Post

I'm assuming that what they've done is make it take an iPhone-style headphone jack + mono mic input. If that's true, then the laptop no longer has analog stereo input.

If, on the other hand, what they've done is to make it either an input or an output, but not both at the same time, people would not be able to use headsets with Skype, or record a musical instrument while listening through headphones.

Their website says the output is user switchable to analog audio in, so it looks like it still has that.

And I guess you can't do overdubbing in GB like that...but mic options that connect to 1/8 are pretty weak and you can't use a regular mic without buying a mic preamp anyway. Anyone serious about it would be using additional hardware anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by retroneo View Post

Fool. It's not stereo anymore.

First, no need to be rude and call people names, it's childish. And second, do the apple specs say if it's stereo or mono?

Quote:
Originally Posted by yopmaster View Post

I sometimes use the audio input in combination of the audio out to plug my guitar and listen to what I'm playing with headphones or some good quaity speakers.

What sort of output is on your guitar (or are you using some sort of guitar amp or pre)? You can't just use a 1/4" to 1/8" cable to hook a guitar directly to a 1/8 input on a computer, can you? I would think that it wouldn't have enough juice to amplify the signal, although I could be wrong.

Doing a quick search online, you can get a simple USB guitar connection for under $40 and it should vastly increase the quality of your audio input and output.
post #59 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

I don't like the idea of the dropped audio input port, this is just a slow slide against pro and audio creators in favor of locked down consumer machines.

The port is tiny, it could have gone anywhere, this is bullsh*t.

So is your argument. There are USB options for audio input. I guess you don't remember the Power Mac G4 (Digital Audio) lacked an audio input as well, and it was considered a "Pro" machine. The original PowerBook G4's lacked audio in as well (it did later return). Audio creators use FIREWIRE for their Audio devices. You can still get audio into the MacBook.
post #60 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

I have a Line 6 X3 Live modeling pedal (basically digital guitar effects, amps and cabinets for my Strats) that I pipe the S/PDIF digital output (stereo) through a digital coax->optical converter and in through the toslink optical digital audio input of my BlackBook to Logic. Its a very good digital signal, so no need to go to analog only to roundtrip back to digital again.

And clicking on the link, I see the Line6 also has USB output, so even without digital audio in, you can still send the signal digitally to the laptop. You'd have to hook up using a different cable, but no loss of quality in this situation.

I suppose there are still probably a few audio boxes that have digital out but not USB or firewire, but I doubt there are many recent ones with that configuration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elroth View Post

Unfortunately, you'll have to figure out another way to get your shits and giggles.

But fortunately, it can be done easily with software, using a cable at all is completely unnecessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaInsider View Post

As a professional audio engineer I must attest that any onboard mic/line input on a laptop is never to be associated with professional quality Analog to Digital (A/D) convertors like that found in external audio interfaces like a Digidesign MBox. Consumers are the only ones that will be missing this dedicated input.

Whether or not you buy the argument that it had to go for lack of space is one thing, but from someone who bought their last macbook (not uni) stricktly for Logic Pro and Pro Tools usage, I would have no problem sacrificing a mic input in favor of FW800 and/or sd card reader.

The input that was removed was a digital input, and using that will give you sound quality as good as any "pro" box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidty View Post

No S/PDIF on your FW interface? I run my X3 Live into my FA101 (also with the help of a co-ax/optical converter). It would be nice if Logic allowed me to use my FW interface simultaneously with the POD's USB connection.

That FW interface does have spdif, so yet another way he could bring in his guitar digitally. And you should be able to use multiple interfaces simultaneously with Logic (even mixing FW and USB), you just need to go into the Audio Midi Setup app and combine the two as a virtual aggregate device.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Young View Post

I have used the Mac's traditional Line in audio jack a number of times to take output from several audio/tape/stereo components/units to record digitally.

So you were using the analog input, which is still there. They removed the digital input.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

YI can record my guitar directly into Logic Express (and send the keyboard MIDI data through a cheapie USB MIDI device) and leave my other gear plugged into the MOTU in the home recording studio. Another reason to keep the BlackBook around I guess.

Couldn't you do that on this new machine by connecting the USB output of the line6 to the laptop? No FW needed.
post #61 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by retroneo View Post

Fool. It's not stereo anymore.

How do you know?
post #62 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyboy View Post

plugging an audio jack into a laptop is a BAD idea in my experience. anything you can do with a digital audio in can be done better and more safely with usb, very cheaply, these days

Worked great for me. More safely? What do you think the audio in does, explode when you plug in an audio cable?
post #63 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by PB View Post

Not sure if I understand: you say that if you use the now unique audio port as input, you have to redirect the output elsewhere. Why then use the built-in speakers and not a USB headphones set?

Hmmh, that is possible...
I guess I'd be called "old school" since my audio inputs (and mic) and headphones and speakers all use the 1/8" mini plugs and jacks. I haven't gotten around to getting any usb audio devices... some day no doubt.
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post #64 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by hillstones View Post

Worked great for me. More safely? What do you think the audio in does, explode when you plug in an audio cable?

I assume he means with less risk of buzzing or other audio problems. Built in analog in is virtually always going to be inferior to using an external box, it's just a question of whether built in is good enough for a particular user.
post #65 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadisawesome View Post

so funny. when FW was dropped, Apple Insider wrote articles saying "consumers don't use firewire anyway", "apple removed it because we don't need it

That hasnt changed. Consumers dont use Firewire nearly as much as they use or need the other port options. Plus, only the chicken heads claiming the sky was falling thought FW was going away, instead of just FW400.

Quote:
and FW is back, and "now you can get the mac experience of target disk mode again"

TDM is overrated as it reruires 2 Macs and a FW-to-FW cable that people probably dont have. I find it much easier to simply boot off an external drive when there are problems with my internal HDD. Just down the option key and choose the USB boot drive I put on my Time Machine drive. Always with me, always waiting.
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post #66 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer View Post

As long as sneaker net lives, there will be a market for a cheap storage device that allows for one use. $0.04 for a disk that I can burn and give someone VS a ~$20 flash chip that I would want back? no contest.

BluRay media is not $0.04 each. Almost everyone I know has a USB flash drive and when they need something I either email it to them, use iDisk, or copy it to their flash drive. I haven't used my DVD drive for copying data months now.
post #67 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That hasnt changed. Consumers dont use Firewire nearly as much as they use or need the other port options. Plus, only the chicken heads claiming the sky was falling thought FW was going away, instead of just FW400.


TDM is overrated as it reruires 2 Macs and a FW-to-FW cable that people probably dont have. I find it much easier to simply boot off an external drive when there are problems with my internal HDD. Just down the option key and choose the USB boot drive I put on my Time Machine drive. Always with me, always waiting.


Its overrated until you have to use it.
post #68 of 81
Update:

Seems your able to create a boot drive off a SD card using Disk Utility.

The new 2TB SD standard uses a M$ exFAT file structure, since the new SD card is the same as older ones in size and shape/pins. Only difference is speed and larger storage..

Remains to be seen if file structure can be changed to HFS+ and if the speed is there hardware to match.

2TB on a SD card, bootable or a clone of a hard drive would be extremely valuable for laptop owners on the go.
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post #69 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajprice View Post

The DVD drive is on the right, the ports are on the left. The space isn't an issue because of the DVD drive, the battery and hard drive is probably whats taking the space.

The battery and the hard drive? Dude, all laptops can't get rid of these two. But guess what? The ThinkPad team could fit the a audio input and a audio output, PCMCIA Slot, SD slot, a telephone jack (totally useless for most users), 3 USBs, one FW, VGA connector, and 1Gb LAN on the x61, which is a 12" ultraportable laptop developed TWO YEARS AGO, by getting rid of the DVD drive.

Again, based on my own speculation, I think DVD drive is the obstacle for putting more ports.
post #70 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by mechengit View Post

My guess on why Apple has so much trouble fitting the ports.

1. It's likely that the DVD burner is taking a huge chunk of the side area. I really suggest that Apple to give a second option of removing the DVD burner and replace it with ExpressCard and digital audio input or whatsoever. Most users barely use the DVD player on the road, so getting rid of this dead weight makes sense.

2. Steve Jobs insists that no ports can be built in the front because of his aesthetic concern. This is just my wild guess, but entirely possible.

1) I wonder if SDHC cards or the new SDXC standard introduce this year allow for any HW encryption that could protect OS X in the future if Apple went to SD cards for OS installs. I have stated previously that USB flash drives would be great as they are very fast and are very green' as they take up very little room.

The cards are still price prohibitive when directly compared to the cost of a SL-DVD or DL-DVD, but is the price difference enough to make it an issue for Apple in the future. After all, this is Apple, the company that gone after more expensive over cheaper many times to push a standard.

Now, if you include the cost of the DVD drive itself to the price of the DVD the SD card OS X installer is no longer price prohibitive and now affords Apple a great deal more room in the case and an entire side for which to add ports on the right side.

2) The argument that some people make that Apple could add ports anywhere is weak. Of course they could ad it anywhere, but we have to look at it from the companys perspective. I dont expect a fancy Japanese steakhouse to put in a drive through window, but they could. The new MacBooks show that Apple will only use a certain part of the case for ports. If not for the moving of the Kensington lock to the opposite side now that the latch mechanism lock is no longer needed and the removable of the stand-alone line-in jack there would have been no room for FW800 or the Sd card slot.

If you look at the pics you see that the last port in the line stops right where it did before; right before the battery. Apple could have made the battery smaller so that more ports on the left side could be fitted or even had it stick out of the center of the trackpad. The former isnt Apple and latter is just hyperbole for hyperbole sake.

If the the optical drive goes away int he next revision. For those that need one Apple make one for $99 and other vendors make them for a lot less. For those that dont you get so many more options, as do their engineers now that the largest single component and side real-estate hog is gone. I think Blu-ray is probably a no go, but Id at least like to see OS support for HDCP for those who buy their own players. The cost of the new 9.5mm drives are just too high to justify. If Apple dropped EC/34 because 1% used it then BRDs seem like an impossibility unless the prices come down.
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post #71 of 81
I'm sitting here wondering why people keep posting examples of how they use analog audio in, as if they can't do that any more with the loss of optical audio in. Even though the distinction has been pointed out. Several times.
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post #72 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

With all due respect, you don't have a clue what you are talking about. The USB in that Line 6 box (my main "effects pedals" and "amp") is complete shit. Great amp modeling, crap USB interface.

Gotta love comments that start out "With all due respect" then go straight into complete jerkoff mode.

I was pointing out that that box has USB audio. Which it does. I'm not sure how you expected me to know how well that one specific piece of gear performs, and I imagine there's probably a way to make that point and correct me without going straight to insults.

And really, if Line6 put a crappy USB port on their box, shouldn't you be pissed at THEM and not me? What specifically is wrong with their USB implementation more specifically than being "complete shit"? I'd be curious to hear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

Again, you don't seem to have any idea what you are talking about. Your lack of experience is obvious. USB in a high-IO or high-CPU utilization scenario is complete and utter crap. Come back and talk to me after you try recording a live session on a laptop over a USB interface.

I don't, do I? Way to make assumptions, sherlock - in fact I have been making my living doing audio recording for over a decade. Nice try though. And yeah, in fact, I have recorded a live session on a laptop with USB interface and it has worked fine every time for me.

Of course USB isn't as robust as firewire for audio recording. But we are talking about a situation where you need to pass ONE STEREO track of audio (you did say you're only bringing guitar on the road and leaving the rest plugged together in the studio, right?), and USB absolutely can handle that no problem. Or do you really think bringing in one guitar is a "high-IO" situation? Again, if Line6 screwed up their USB interface, then your beef is with them, in general for that sort of thing USB is just fine.

I'm not even sure what exactly you're disputing with the last bit of my post you quoted.

Are you saying your audio interface doesn't have SPDIF? (it does)

Are you saying that Audio Midi Setup doesn't allow creating aggregate devices? Or that you can't do it mixing USB and firewire?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

Fanboys suck...

Pointing out that the Line6 has USB somehow makes me a "fanboy"? Would that be a USB fanboy? Or a Line6 fanboy? Or just an apple fanboy (because of course when your Line6 box doesn't work, it's Apple's fault, right)? And if you really want the full effect, it should be "fanboi".

Seriously, I'm not sure why you're so angry. We're just talking about recording a guitar to a laptop, it's not life or death. Or at least vent your anger where it should go, at some Line6 message board, they are the guys who sold you a piece of gear that doesn't work properly.

Take a deep breath. It's OK.

Feel better now?
post #73 of 81
Lundy has weighed in, so I have no further comment.

   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

    AT&T believes their LTE coverage is adequate

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   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

    AT&T believes their LTE coverage is adequate

Reply
post #74 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by mechengit View Post

The battery and the hard drive? Dude, all laptops can't get rid of these two. But guess what? The ThinkPad team could fit the a audio input and a audio output, PCMCIA Slot, SD slot, a telephone jack (totally useless for most users), 3 USBs, one FW, VGA connector, and 1Gb LAN on the x61, which is a 12" ultraportable laptop developed TWO YEARS AGO, by getting rid of the DVD drive.

Again, based on my own speculation, I think DVD drive is the obstacle for putting more ports.

OK, my point was that the DVD drive isn't impeding on the ports because its on THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COMPUTER!!

Here's a picture -


Hard drive and battery across the front, where the palmrest and trackpad is, DVD on the left and ports on the right of the picture. On the side of the case where the ports are, the ports run from the back edge and stop 2/3rds of the way along. so there are no ports where the battery is.

I still dont know how a drive on one side of the machine can stop ports being added to the other side. Tthe X61 probably has all those ports because its half an inch bigger at the thick end of its wedge shape, that gives you quite a bit more room in laptop packaging terms.
post #75 of 81
I agree with others about the potential removal of the optical drive now that SD cards can conceivably take their place. OTOH, optical media is so ubiquitous that it's hard to see the chain of events that would allow this to move forward in a big way. People really do watch movies on their laptop and the DVD is by far the dominant means of movie distribution. Digital downloads have not made a big dent in that stat.

An interesting development would be if a DVD player manufacturer were to put an SD slot on a DVD player. Now all of a sudden you have a dual-media player, capable of HD, right in the middle of someone's living room. Nothing would cause panic in Sony's HQ faster than this. And because you don't need dedicated burning and playback equipment for SD, you avoid rerunning the BD vs HD-DVD war. Would this be the event that gives a wholesale replacement of optical drives with SD some real traction, assuming movie distribution via SD takes hold?
post #76 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajprice View Post

OK, my point was that the DVD drive isn't impeding on the ports because its on THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COMPUTER!!

Here's a picture -
[picture deleted by mechengit]

Hard drive and battery across the front, where the palmrest and trackpad is, DVD on the left and ports on the right of the picture. On the side of the case where the ports are, the ports run from the back edge and stop 2/3rds of the way along. so there are no ports where the battery is.

I still dont know how a drive on one side of the machine can stop ports being added to the other side. Tthe X61 probably has all those ports because its half an inch bigger at the thick end of its wedge shape, that gives you quite a bit more room in laptop packaging terms.

My point is simple... get rid of the DVD drive and there you can AT LEAST fit an ExpressCard on the DVD drive side. As I said earlier, most people don't really need DVD drive on the road, especially for those ultraportable users. That is why I think Apple should provide a second option of ExpressCard. Although, that will bring more logistics and management challenges for Apple.

Other technical challenges which I overlooked are the insistence on keeping the whole battery to be within the case and the insistence of leaving the back for screen hedge and ventilation. And to be honest, I don't really see how these two insistence benefit the users other than for the sake of aesthetic concerns.

Using the entire back for ventilation has never been proven to have a better cooling results than those of other competitors that vent the heat otherwise. If Apple is willing to drop this philosophy, they can potentially move the motherboard to the front and the battery to the back. That will create more ports on the front. (Then, Steve Jobs probably don't want to see holes on the front.) Moving the battery to the back can potentially make more room for the ports because you can extrude the battery out of the case while bringing the choice of swapping different batteries without tearing the case apart. That also means users can make their own trade-off between weight and battery-life. (Then again, Steve Jobs probably don't want to see something "sticking out" from the case.)
post #77 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post

I agree with others about the potential removal of the optical drive now that SD cards can conceivably take their place. OTOH, optical media is so ubiquitous that it's hard to see the chain of events that would allow this to move forward in a big way. People really do watch movies on their laptop and the DVD is by far the dominant means of movie distribution. Digital downloads have not made a big dent in that stat.

An interesting development would be if a DVD player manufacturer were to put an SD slot on a DVD player. Now all of a sudden you have a dual-media player, capable of HD, right in the middle of someone's living room. Nothing would cause panic in Sony's HQ faster than this. And because you don't need dedicated burning and playback equipment for SD, you avoid rerunning the BD vs HD-DVD war. Would this be the event that gives a wholesale replacement of optical drives with SD some real traction, assuming movie distribution via SD takes hold?

There are plenty of examples in personal computing where weve chosen to transition from one tech to another. Apple has been at the forefront of many of these changes. Some are backwards compatible with the previous tech, like DVI for mDP, but others just require a complete dropping like PCMCIA for ExpressCard, and floppy for optical drives.

All the examples given were still possible with external options. Of course, people dont want to lose the optical drive just so they can fork over $99 for an optical drive that they can carry with their notebook. We have to remember that Apple has yet to support Blu-ray in any capacity (except for being in consortium from a decade back), is pushing their digital downloads so hard that you can now rent and buy movies over your iPod Touch and iPhone, and the benefit of default optical media for notebook computer is no longer a hard fast requirement.

For home entertainment systems Blu-ray is the future format. But for a personal computer there are just too many limitations that affect its viability.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #78 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajprice View Post

OK, my point was that the DVD drive isn't impeding on the ports because its on THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COMPUTER!!

Here's a picture -
image: ]http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/06/6-10-09mbp.jpg

Hard drive and battery across the front, where the palmrest and trackpad is, DVD on the left and ports on the right of the picture. On the side of the case where the ports are, the ports run from the back edge and stop 2/3rds of the way along. so there are no ports where the battery is.

I still dont know how a drive on one side of the machine can stop ports being added to the other side. Tthe X61 probably has all those ports because its half an inch bigger at the thick end of its wedge shape, that gives you quite a bit more room in laptop packaging terms.

I had to read your post a few times to understand your argument. I think you are stating that the optical drive doesnt affect the ability for Apple to add ports. If so, then I disagree. Two-thirds of the right side with the optical drive slot could be used from more ports.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #79 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post

I agree with others about the potential removal of the optical drive now that SD cards can conceivably take their place. OTOH, optical media is so ubiquitous that it's hard to see the chain of events that would allow this to move forward in a big way. People really do watch movies on their laptop and the DVD is by far the dominant means of movie distribution. Digital downloads have not made a big dent in that stat.

An interesting development would be if a DVD player manufacturer were to put an SD slot on a DVD player. Now all of a sudden you have a dual-media player, capable of HD, right in the middle of someone's living room. Nothing would cause panic in Sony's HQ faster than this. And because you don't need dedicated burning and playback equipment for SD, you avoid rerunning the BD vs HD-DVD war. Would this be the event that gives a wholesale replacement of optical drives with SD some real traction, assuming movie distribution via SD takes hold?

My take is it makes more sense to have optical drive on bigger laptops such as the 15" MacBook Pro. It also makes sense to have optical drive on a 13" MacBook Pro if the users really need it, even though I haven't seen any Macbook users that actually utilize the optical drive on the road.

It doesn't really make sense to build optical drive on ultraportable laptops because now ultraportable has a smaller screen, which is not suitable for watching video especially ON THE ROAD. It also isn't suitable for burning discs ON THE ROAD because the optical drive is a battery hog and you really need to bring a cord if you're going to use it ON THE ROAD, which breaks the purpose of an ultraportable. Not to mention the potential lack of computing power (especially in power saving mode ON THE ROAD) to edit video before burning into a disc.
post #80 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by mechengit View Post

My take is it makes more sense to have optical drive on bigger laptops such as the 15" MacBook Pro. It also makes sense to have optical drive on a 13" MacBook Pro if the users really need it, even though I haven't seen any Macbook users that actually utilize the optical drive on the road.

I have the "original" 13" Unibody Macbook, and for me, the biggest limiting factor was the hard drive. I, as many other users have commented, found the optical drive to be a waste of space. Luckily, adding a second hard drive in place of the optical drive a lot more doable than adding needed ports.

I picked up an "OptiBay" kit from MCE, and installed two 500GB HDs in that little MacBook. Now, with a terabyte of space I have room to spare.

There really is a lot of space to be freed up inside of that computer by removing the optical drive. Although I am probably not typical of a "normal" consumer, optical media is definitely dead to me. I would love to see Apple do something innovative with that space and give the people what they want.

I think Apple is experiencing an interesting point in its evolution right now, as it has become increasingly appealing to the mainstream because of the reputation that the company gained among its early cult followers. Now, in an effort to cater to that growing mainstream market, it is making compromises that cut against what many of the "old-school" Mac users really want.

Hopefully Steve and crew will get it figured out and be able to please most of the people most of the time!
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