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Apple warns Palm Pre users iTunes sync may break

post #1 of 170
Thread Starter 
A simple technical note from Apple on Tuesday warns that it can't guarantee third-party devices like the Palm Pre will work with iTunes and adds that future updates to the software may break media syncing with third-party devices.

The document stresses Apple's belief in the tight integration of its portable devices with iTunes and clearly, if indirectly, signals that Palm's iTunes sync feature has no guarantees at all from the iPod maker.

"Apple designs the hardware and software to provide seamless integration of the iPhone and iPod with iTunes, the iTunes Store, and tens of thousands of apps on the App Store," the company says. "Apple is aware that some third-parties claim that their digital media players are able to sync with Apple software. However, Apple does not provide support for, or test for compatibility with, non-Apple digital media players."

Although it takes care to avoid implying that it will deliberately head off Palm's efforts, Apple also mentions that, since software "changes over time," future updates to iTunes may prevent sync with third-party devices from working at all with the jukebox app.

Whether or not this is likely to happen with the Pre is difficult to tell. The feature works by identifying the smartphone in its hardware ID as an iPod and would require that Apple detect the difference between the Pre and a genuine iPod. Many of Palm's current engineers -- as well as its new CEO Jon Rubinstein -- are former Apple employees who have worked on the iPhone or iPod and are familiar with iTunes' current methods of recognizing plugged-in devices.

The notice fires another shot across the bow of Palm, which Apple increasingly sees as a concern. Outside of belittling the number of apps on Palm's software store, the iPhone designer has previously warned that it will pursue patent theft if it believes anyone has copied its techniques -- although, again, Apple has made sure it doesn't directly accuse Palm of such an act.
post #2 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

A simple technical note from Apple on Tuesday warns that it can't guarantee third-party devices like the Palm Pre will work with iTunes and adds that future updates to the software may break media syncing with third-party devices...

Well, we knew it was coming...\
I have to say when it actually happens I will feel bad for the Pre owners who get caught up in it...
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post #3 of 170
My Opinion the software should be exclusive to approved products; iPod, iPhone, and previously Apple- approved devices (Moto Rokr). thats it.
post #4 of 170
I mean what did we all expect...of course Apple is going to break it. They are the competition...I would break it too. Watch as all the whinny pre users come flooding forums complaining about Apple. Hey Palm why don't you just write your own device management app instead of mooching off of iTunes.
post #5 of 170
Yes Apple show em who is boss.
post #6 of 170
You know, I'd really like to see the Pre do well - but this nonsense of depending on another company to sync with your computer is really lame. They have to step up their game and deliver the full package - Phone & Software. Depending on another companies product to sync your device is not a smart move.
post #7 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamisen.sc View Post

My Opinion the software should be exclusive to approved products; iPod, iPhone, and previously Apple- approved devices (Moto Rokr). thats it.

My opinion is that it's piss poor decision on Apple's part. iTunes is a central piece of OS X software and as such should not be locked to Apple's hardware alone. If Microsoft were to announce that Windows Media Player was only going to allow syncing with Zunes, people on here would be crying foul and screaming about MS's monopolistic policies. I have the same feeling about other pieces of Apple software like iMovie that provides encoding presets only for Apple products and YouTube. Apple's desire for complete control wears a bit thin at times.
post #8 of 170
Totally expected this. Totally within the Apple business model.

Though, reading through the lines, its an excuse to kill external syncing with iTunes. If these devices just "happen" to stop working with iTunes, then its your fault. I suspect Apple would like their programmers to include code to keep these outside devices from syncing. Letting outside sources play is not their way.

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post #9 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post

My opinion is that it's piss poor decision on Apple's part. iTunes is a central piece of OS X software and as such should not be locked to Apple's hardware alone. If Microsoft were to announce that Windows Media Player was only going to allow syncing with Zunes, people on here would be crying foul and screaming about MS's monopolistic policies. I have the same feeling about other pieces of Apple software like iMovie that provides encoding presets only for Apple products and YouTube. Apple's desire for complete control wears a bit thin at times.

They don't say it's not gonna work - they say it might not work - to make sure everybody was warned. It might cause troubles in the future and Apple just wants to make sure people will not blame Apple if something will not work in the future. Microsoft warrants nothing as well - I think it's the same case.
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Marquiz d' Gabber von Gabberaarde

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... 6x slower!
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post #10 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post

My opinion is that it's piss poor decision on Apple's part. iTunes is a central piece of OS X software and as such should not be locked to Apple's hardware alone. If Microsoft were to announce that Windows Media Player was only going to allow syncing with Zunes, people on here would be crying foul and screaming about MS's monopolistic policies. I have the same feeling about other pieces of Apple software like iMovie that provides encoding presets only for Apple products and YouTube. Apple's desire for complete control wears a bit thin at times.

What a bunch of bull, does Microsoft allow the Zune software to sync with Palm Pre, why isn't there outrage over that, why isn't Palm making this a feature of their phone, they just want to hitch onto the biggest name in the industry.
post #11 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post

My opinion is that it's piss poor decision on Apple's part. iTunes is a central piece of OS X software and as such should not be locked to Apple's hardware alone. If Microsoft were to announce that Windows Media Player was only going to allow syncing with Zunes, people on here would be crying foul and screaming about MS's monopolistic policies. I have the same feeling about other pieces of Apple software like iMovie that provides encoding presets only for Apple products and YouTube. Apple's desire for complete control wears a bit thin at times.

Well, Apple did all the hard work to made iTunes an effective yet easy-to-use software. It don't think it'll accept any other company making profit using their hard work (and not even paying for it). Plus, if Palm really wants to succeed, it should be fully equipped (the phone and the software). Using iTunes compatibility as a selling point is 'stealing' in my opinion.

But yes, I agree with you on the fact that Apple has some extra-tight controls. But then again, I am happy with what Apple offers. So, these tight controls do not interfere with my requirements. And that's all that is: Personal choices.

Cheers.
post #12 of 170
This seems rather lazy on Palm's part. All they had to do was make it so the Pre syncs with iTunes' XML file; they'd get the same end result. Just change the bullet point from "syncs in iTunes" to "syncs with your iTunes library."

Masquerading an as iPod via a hack is asking for trouble.
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False comparisons do not a valid argument make.
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post #13 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscoNomad View Post

What did we all expect? Of course Apple is going to break it. They are the competition...I would break it too. Watch as all the whinny pre users come flooding forums complaining about Apple. Hey Palm why don't you just write your own device management app instead of mooching off of iTunes.

Palm had their Palm Desktop and Hotsync software to do just that. The only thing I could think of is perhaps Palm realized their own package is such a steaming pile of garbage that their only option was to hitch a ride on iTunes. Perhaps this was a stopgap measure to give Palm enough time to come up with their own full-blown desktop module. It comes to no surprise that Apple is putting the warning out there.

Of course, Pre owners will be the one to complain about Apple if/when that break occurs when they should actually be pointing the finger right back at Palm. Shame on Palm/Rubenstein for even advertising that ability as a feature.
post #14 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post

My opinion is that it's piss poor decision on Apple's part. iTunes is a central piece of OS X software and as such should not be locked to Apple's hardware alone. If Microsoft were to announce that Windows Media Player was only going to allow syncing with Zunes, people on here would be crying foul and screaming about MS's monopolistic policies. I have the same feeling about other pieces of Apple software like iMovie that provides encoding presets only for Apple products and YouTube. Apple's desire for complete control wears a bit thin at times.

can you sync an ipod with windows media player?
post #15 of 170
Apple should sell a licensed plugin for itunes that allows the pre to sync. If Palm customers want to use Apples software, let them pay for it.
post #16 of 170
One would think that the method by which the iPod syncs to iTunes would constitute "proprietary" information, and if former employees happened to take that information to a competitor and implement it there, Apple Legal would get involved.

Maybe they're just being quiet about it this time.
post #17 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post

My opinion is that it's piss poor decision on Apple's part. iTunes is a central piece of OS X software and as such should not be locked to Apple's hardware alone. If Microsoft were to announce that Windows Media Player was only going to allow syncing with Zunes, people on here would be crying foul and screaming about MS's monopolistic policies. I have the same feeling about other pieces of Apple software like iMovie that provides encoding presets only for Apple products and YouTube. Apple's desire for complete control wears a bit thin at times.

Well this argument sounds good, everyone wants open cross standards and I applaud you for that. iTMS music is DRM free, so it can be placed on any machine that supports the open standard.

Unfortunately there is no hardware standard, so there can be no software standard.

Apple isn't going to make a hardware standard, because that will stop them from innovating.

The same mistake Real Networks made with their devices hitching a ride on Apple's iTunes. Eventually Apple changes their hardware, which changes their software and won't work with other hardware from other makers.

Apple isn't going to reveal or change their hardware road map to satisfy the hitchhikers and not brick their machines.

Apple is vertically integrated, software and hardware together, from Apple.

Better experience, better reliability, more innovation. Less headaches.

Quote:
I have the same feeling about other pieces of Apple software like iMovie that provides encoding presets only for Apple products and YouTube. Apple's desire for complete control wears a bit thin at times.

Remember Apple is a consumer hardware products company, they tend to make things easier for the newbie consumer, giving them a lot of power and ease of use.

iMovie is a free consumer level product and isn't about to confuse their main consumers with a lot of other code that may or may not be updated. It's worse as it is with Java, Javascript, Flash and the open source parts of OS X to just add to the complication with having free consumer level products confusing and complicated.

There are other programs, even from Apple, that give a lot more choice if you so need it.

Let a chance for other companies to make a buck and not let Apple hog up the whole show.
The danger is that we sleepwalk into a world where cabals of corporations control not only the mainstream devices and the software on them, but also the entire ecosystem of online services around...
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The danger is that we sleepwalk into a world where cabals of corporations control not only the mainstream devices and the software on them, but also the entire ecosystem of online services around...
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post #18 of 170
Masquerading an as iPod via a hack is asking for trouble.[/QUOTE]

THIS IS GOOD NEWS!!! Maybe Steve can hang Rubes's Cubes on his rearview mirror!
post #19 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by AIaddict View Post

Apple should sell a licensed plugin for itunes that allows the pre to sync. If Palm customers want to use Apples software, let them pay for it.

Why bother? I'd rather have Apple spend its resources making, say, iLife available for, and compatible with, Windows. (And charging them $129 a pop.)
post #20 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

The notice fires another shot across the bow of Palm, which Apple increasingly sees as a concern. Outside of belittling the number of apps on Palm's software store, the iPhone designer has previously warned that it will pursue patent theft if it believes anyone has copied its techniques -- although, again, Apple has made sure it doesn't directly accuse Palm of such an act.

It's infringement, not theft.
post #21 of 170
ummm... Am I the only one that was kind of shocked that Palm is actually officially acknowledging this "feature"? Seriously? A hack that allows the competitors software to recognize your device. You'd expect something like this from anonymous people in the open-source not from a well-known, established company. I'd understand and probably applaud this if it was just a undocumented feature they threw in for the fans, but to try and entice people to buy based on a feature they have no way of supporting is simply ridiculous.

Frankly, I'm also surprised it's legal.
post #22 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by AIaddict View Post

Apple should sell a licensed plugin for itunes that allows the pre to sync. If Palm customers want to use Apples software, let them pay for it.

That's not a bad idea. As it stands, even if Apple does break the Pre/iTunes link, it'll be less than a month before there's an itunes plugin that does it and Apple gets a negative PR mark. I'm sure they'll never even consider it since others would want in too, increasing unlicensed hardware that they have to make compatible, but didn't design.

It looks to be that they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. Pretty tricky situation. I'll be interested to see what they do.
post #23 of 170
It seems to me its GOOD for Apple since it's not big enough of a feature for people to decide to get a Pre over an iPhone, but at the same time, existing Pre owners won't need to venture outside of iTunes if that's what they use to begin with. To block the Pre is to block a vast audience of people who they can still reach in some way, even after not being able to reach them with their iPhone. Anyone understand what I mean?

It obviously can work fine, and for Apple to break it just shows how far they go to artificially limit anything they can.
post #24 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by AIaddict View Post

Apple should sell a licensed plugin for itunes that allows the pre to sync. If Palm customers want to use Apples software, let them pay for it.

Dumb idea. It would send people away, and trust me, there are plenty of great free alternatives. The software competes in a free market. Charging for it is like saying fuck off.
post #25 of 170
Originally Posted by caliminius
My opinion is that it's piss poor decision on Apple's part. iTunes is a central piece of OS X software and as such should not be locked to Apple's hardware alone. If Microsoft were to announce that Windows Media Player was only going to allow syncing with Zunes, people on here would be crying foul and screaming about MS's monopolistic policies. I have the same feeling about other pieces of Apple software like iMovie that provides encoding presets only for Apple products and YouTube. Apple's desire for complete control wears a bit thin at times.

i've never had a zune, but doesn't zune only work with zunemarketplace or something like that... Not wmp
post #26 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post

Microsoft were to announce that Windows Media Player was only going to allow syncing with Zunes, people on here would be crying foul and screaming about MS's monopolistic policies.

Well, the fact that Windows Media Player does NOT support the iPod, means your little argument just became null and void.
post #27 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

It seems to me its GOOD for Apple since it's not big enough of a feature for people to decide to get a Pre over an iPhone, but at the same time, existing Pre owners won't need to venture outside of iTunes if that's what they use to begin with. To block the Pre is to block a vast audience of people who they can still reach in some way, even after not being able to reach them with their iPhone. Anyone understand what I mean?

Speaking for myself, no, I don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

... for Apple to break it just shows how far they go to artificially limit anything they can.

It's fine with me as an Apple shareholder.
post #28 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

can you sync an ipod with windows media player?


Why the hell would you want to in the first place! Besides, I though the most popular music player was WinAmps.

Maybe I will jailbrake my iPod to sync with WMP.
post #29 of 170
So, I think it ought to be pointed out again that Apple is not saying they will disconnect anyone from iTunes. No-name mp3 players sync with iTunes just fine. And the more people Apple can get to use their brand, the better. When people see the ease-of-use inherent in their software maybe they'll even switch.

Apple is simply saying that they will not be *supporting* the device.

From Roughly Drafted:
Quote:
The latest on this front has pundits frothing at the prospect of Palm daring to sync its Pre to iTunes, as if Apple is worried that the Palm Pre might help expand the popularity of its music player and sell more music. Really, if you are Apple, are you more worried about a million Palm Pre sales adding a million more iTunes users, or a million sales of something else tied to an iTunes rival?

Instead of worrying that Apple will try to stop Palm from using iTunes, a better question to ask is what has changed in the last five years that makes Palm desperate to associate its make-or-break phone with iTunes, following years of half-assed Mac support for basic Palm syncing?
post #30 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamisen.sc View Post

Originally Posted by caliminius
My opinion is that it's piss poor decision on Apple's part. iTunes is a central piece of OS X software and as such should not be locked to Apple's hardware alone.

iTunes is NOT a central piece of OS X. You can delete it if you want. It won't affect the system. Unlike the old Windows and IE tether. Which the EU has to force them apart. MS even argued in US court that Windows wont function properly without IE. this was before the anti-trust sue too.
post #31 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

A simple technical note from Apple on Tuesday warns that it can't guarantee third-party devices like the Palm Pre will work with iTunes and adds that future updates to the software may break media syncing with third-party devices....

More manufactured controversy ...

Some time in the future people are going to look back on this and wonder what the heck was going on given that there is no evidence or statements of any kind from Apple that indicates it "doesn't like Palm" or that it's interested in crushing them with patent lawsuits, or screwing with their sync or anything of the sort. For that matter no one on the Palm side has ever said anything that would make it seem there is some kind of conflict or war between the two companies either.

In short, while we may get off on reading stories like this and there will of course be many angry comments about "the battle" between Pam and Apple over smart phone supremacy, there are still no actual facts to back up this point of view.
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In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
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post #32 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

More manufactured controversy ...

Some time in the future people are going to look back on this and wonder what the heck was going on given that there is no evidence or statements of any kind from Apple that indicates it "doesn't like Palm" or that it's interested in crushing them with patent lawsuits, or screwing with their sync or anything of the sort. For that matter no one on the Palm side has ever said anything that would make it seem there is some kind of conflict or war between the two companies either.

In short, while we may get off on reading stories like this and there will of course be many angry comments about "the battle" between Pam and Apple over smart phone supremacy, there are still no actual facts to back up this point of view.

That is a superb set of points.
post #33 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

It seems to me its GOOD for Apple since it's not big enough of a feature for people to decide to get a Pre over an iPhone, but at the same time, existing Pre owners won't need to venture outside of iTunes if that's what they use to begin with. To block the Pre is to block a vast audience of people who they can still reach in some way, even after not being able to reach them with their iPhone. Anyone understand what I mean?

It obviously can work fine, and for Apple to break it just shows how far they go to artificially limit anything they can.

Dude You are inventing a whole big thing here, that does not exist.
Itunes was invented by apple for and is a fre download for the world.
Apple spent tens of millions to get it right. Apple spends 100's of million's running itunes every year Apple went out and signed hundred's of content suppliers. Apple never asked anyone for a dime.

You seem like a smart guy, where do you get that any thing apple does is in the public domain?
Palm should have gone out and made its own music software or joined with another music supplier like rhapsody.

Apple's Itunes has already reached over 140.000,000 million people.And if palm was smart they would knock on steve's door and say we want to use your itunes with our iphone killer.

Of the 140 million itunes users, about 25 million own mac's . The rest own windows.
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post #34 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscoNomad View Post

I mean what did we all expect...of course Apple is going to break it. They are the competition...I would break it too.

And I hope Canada's Competition Bureau breaks Apple too.

Apple's spent years promoting Macs as a 'Digital Hub' for electronic devices and never once stated that this only extended to Apple devices.

In fact, Mac OS X was open to virtually all major kinds of phones, cameras and music players right up until Apple bought SoundJam and turned it into iTunes.

If Apple breaks the Pre's ability to sync with iTunes, the Competition Bureau should force Apple to place a disclaimer on all Apple Store windows and its computer marketing materials that Macs are not guaranteed to work with non-Apple devices.

Locking out other devices is the kind of low-brow, Microsoft-like nonsense you do when you can't compete in the real world.
It is beneath Apple, and shouldn't be condoned - especially by Mac users.
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post #35 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

And I hope Canada's Competition Bureau breaks Apple too.

Apple's spent years promoting Macs as a 'Digital Hub' for electronic devices and never once stated that this only extended to Apple devices.

In fact, Mac OS X was open to virtually all major kinds of phones, cameras and music players right up until Apple bought SoundJam and turned it into iTunes.

If Apple breaks the Pre's ability to sync with iTunes, the Competition Bureau should force Apple to place a disclaimer on all Apple Store windows and its computer marketing materials that Macs are not guaranteed to work with non-Apple devices.

Locking out other devices is the kind of low-brow, Microsoft-like nonsense you do when you can't compete in the real world.
It is beneath Apple, and shouldn't be condoned - especially by Mac users.

So it's honestly ok with you for a company that is a competitor, that sells a product in direct competition with your 'cash cow', to hack their product to work with your software to save themselves overhead? I'm sorry that's not the way things usually work, that's pretty much consider bush league, reverse engineering something is one thing, but just hacking your product to work on it? Please, yes I'm sure Canada will "break apple", maybe you should worry about your insurance industry, I hear car insurance is lovely there, you know since there is no COMPETITION ... *rolls eyes*
post #36 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

And I hope Canada's Competition Bureau breaks Apple too.

Apple's spent years promoting Macs as a 'Digital Hub' for electronic devices and never once stated that this only extended to Apple devices.

In fact, Mac OS X was open to virtually all major kinds of phones, cameras and music players right up until Apple bought SoundJam and turned it into iTunes.

If Apple breaks the Pre's ability to sync with iTunes, the Competition Bureau should force Apple to place a disclaimer on all Apple Store windows and its computer marketing materials that Macs are not guaranteed to work with non-Apple devices.

Locking out other devices is the kind of low-brow, Microsoft-like nonsense you do when you can't compete in the real world.
It is beneath Apple, and shouldn't be condoned - especially by Mac users.

There's been speculation that Palm did this to bait Apple into an anti-trust case and I think today's statement might give them some ammunition. The best play should have been to do nothing.
post #37 of 170
If nothing else, it's disingenuous to basically say that it syncs just like your iPhone. In many ways, the iPhone's tight integration with iTunes/OS X is a huge selling point, so by Palm insinuating they have the same thing, it dulls the iPhone luster a little bit.

Yes, you can use any old MP3 player in disc mode and no one can stop the idea of placing DRM-free music on a player. But doing a trick to make iTunes think it's a genuine iPod or iPhone is not cool.
post #38 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamIIGS View Post

So it's honestly ok with you for a company that is a competitor, that sells a product in direct competition with your 'cash cow', to hack their product to work with your software to save themselves overhead? I'm sorry that's not the way things usually work, that's pretty much consider bush league, reverse engineering something is one thing, but just hacking your product to work on it? Please, yes I'm sure Canada will "break apple", maybe you should worry about your insurance industry, I hear car insurance is lovely there, you know since there is no COMPETITION ... *rolls eyes*

If Palm used Apple trade secrets to make the Pre work with iTunes, they should pay for that in court. That being said, it does not excuse a vertical monopoly.
post #39 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post

My opinion is that it's piss poor decision on Apple's part. iTunes is a central piece of OS X software and as such should not be locked to Apple's hardware alone. If Microsoft were to announce that Windows Media Player was only going to allow syncing with Zunes, people on here would be crying foul and screaming about MS's monopolistic policies. I have the same feeling about other pieces of Apple software like iMovie that provides encoding presets only for Apple products and YouTube. Apple's desire for complete control wears a bit thin at times.

I agree that it's a piss poor decision on Apple's part to announce this. However in comparison, Microsoft's Zune Marketplace is Zune specific...worse yet after they developed and marketed Played-For-Sure.

As far as iMovie... Apple's presets there make sense. As a novice on a Mac, you're most likely going to send it to YouTube, MobileMe, iTunes/iPod/iPhone/AppleTV, iDVD. Many other devices would accept the format options from these presets, but you also have the option in iMovie to export using QuickTime which allows you to export to any spec QuickTime supports directly or any spec that a 3rd party QickTime plugin has been created for. In other words, with iMovie, I feel like Apple is simply trying to simplify while supporting 3rd parties (like YouTube).
post #40 of 170
Why doesn't Palm just arrange a license deal with Apple? Then, Apple could benefit from the success of their rival. There really is a market big enough, given that the iPhone is exclusive to a single carrier in a given market, for most countries. I know that iTunes isn't really a money maker for Apple, but the more sold, the more profitable it would be on top of the license fees.

I think that heavy handed attempts at keeping iTunes exclusive might bring in some antitrust issues that Apple may not want.
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