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iPhone 3G S faster than Palm Pre; 500K sales "conservative" - Page 4

post #121 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by syklee26 View Post

Palm's Pre-Empty-ive strike has failed I guess.

I don't recall if Palm was promoting it as an iPhone "killer" or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I would refine that and say if you want to multi-task web apps go Pre, if you want 50,000 full Objective-C/ OpenGL apps go iPhone.

I wonder how many iPhone users even know what Objective-C or OpenGL really is. It doesn't strike me as something many people think about, possibly fewer than the people that know what an ARM chip is.
post #122 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamIIGS View Post

Wow 22nd post and you couldn't be further off, PALM used newtons technology for handwriting, they just paid apple to license it. So you make a statement, calling someone else out, yet you are clueless. KK you can probably leave now.

I can't find anything that says this is true. Some information I've found suggests that Palm might have licenced Grafitti to Apple after Apple's first try at handwriting recognition failed. This was before Palm started making their own devices. Palm did have to pay someone for it the technology, but that was Xerox, not Apple, because of a patent Xerox filed.

Palm was developing for other company's PDAs at that time, including Newton.

http://www.answers.com/topic/palmone-inc

Quote:
In September 1994, Palm debuted its Graffiti handwriting recognition software. Until that time, users of personal digital assistants usually entered information by choosing selections on a tiny screen with a little plastic stylus. Adding any kind of practical keyboard would make the devices too large to carry in one's pocket. Apple's Newton already had a limited handwriting recognition capability, but Palm's Graffiti could be used for taking notes or sending e-mail. It boasted 100 percent accuracy and a speed to rival typing.

Quote:
Palm offered the software for the Newton, Magic Cap, and other PDAs. Giant modem manufacturer U.S. Robotics, based in Skokie, Illinois, acquired Palm in September 1995 for $44 million. Palm was based in Los Altos, California.
post #123 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I can't find anything that says this is true. Some information I've found suggests that Palm might have licenced Grafitti to Apple after Apple's handwriting recognition failed. This was before Palm started making their own devices. Palm did have to pay someone for it the technology, but that was Xerox, not Apple, because of a patent Xerox filed.

Palm was developing for other company's PDAs before Newton was introduced.

http://www.answers.com/topic/palmone-inc

This isn't entirely correct. I've got friends that owned Newtons, one of which whom still uses his.

I remember the Newton with the last OS as having quite complex recognition, and doing very well at it, certainly as good as Graffiti.

Even the very first OS had sophisticated recognition, even though you had to spend time training the device. Problem was, most people didn't want to take the time, and so it didn't work well. Like voice recognition. No trainie, no workie.

I also remember them TRYING to sell Graffiti to Apple, but didn't succeed.

It's really too bad about the Newton. The 2100 was a really fine machine, and far better than the Palm. Two strikes against it though.

Despite its much more sophisticated hardware and OS, it was too big and too expensive.

Still, when Jobs discontinued it, sales had gone well above where they had been, and people were thinking that it would be a success.

The OS was very sophisticated. All programs and info were kept in a "sea", where they could be recalled at once, and could be used to form new types of programs from snippets. You could get various little packages, and use them as if they were part of one program.

I can't imagine what it would look like today after so many years of development of the hardware and software. No one else would be close.

Too bad.

The Palm was a toy in comparison.
post #124 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by halfyearsun View Post

Being able to multitask with the wide variety of third party programs available for the pre is a major advantage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

I can't quite tell if you're being sarcastic.

I cant tell either. While multitqask is an advantage referring to the Pre as having a wide varoety of third party programs is certainly sardonic.

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post #125 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

This isn't entirely correct. I've got friends that owned Newtons, one of which whom still uses his.

I remember the Newton with the last OS as having quite complex recognition, and doing very well at it, certainly as good as Graffiti.

(snip)

I can't imagine what it would look like today after so many years of development of the hardware and software. No one else would be close.

Too bad.

The Palm was a toy in comparison.

Fair enough, I found and corrected some other mistakes in my post, but I'll leave it as it is now. It's hard finding good information on this.

My guess is that Pilot succeeded because it didn't try to do too much, and as such, could keep a small size and better price. Palm did what I needed it to do and the models I've owned actually fit in my pockets.
post #126 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I don't recall if Palm was promoting it as an iPhone "killer" or not.

McNamee did but then Palms lawyers issued a retraction. He never said the term iPhone killer but the sentiment was clear. His comments were hyperbolic enough that I wonder if it wasnt completely staged to help draw more free media attention.

Step 1: Make outlandish statements about how your device is so much better than competitor.
Result 1: Generate free press.
Step 2: Issue retraction stating that what was said is necessary true.
Result 2: Generate free press.

Maybe he was just overzealous but it just seemed like a PT Barnum move.
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post #127 of 367
Well, what I really wonder is when the first developer will port the WebOS GUI on top of iPhones WebKit engine. it would surely be possible to mimic it there pretty close.

iPhone OS 3.0s HTML 5 implementation now brings offline storage, audio background streaming is already there with Safari, so to have WebOS style "multitasking" on iPhone is to go just one step further for the most part. Which goes to show that the iPhone is more capable than the Prē, because then there are 50,000 apps besides Safari to explore and 3,000+ iPhone web apps already.

But seriously, Palm and Apple were once laying the ground for mobile information devices (aka PDAs) and are now at the forefront again for advancing the state of mobile phone and internet usage. And both really do not compete vs. each other but against the stalwarts of yesterday (Symbian) and wannabe 80% share holders (WiMo). And that is a good thing for everyone.

So kudos to Palm (which seeing where most of the engineers and their CEO came from, really now is "Apple II".. ;-)

just saying
Ciao, Alex
post #128 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

McNamee did but then Palm’s lawyers issued a retraction. He never said the term “iPhone killer’ but the sentiment was clear. His comments were hyperbolic enough that I wonder if it wasn’t completely staged to help draw more free media attention.

Step 1: Make outlandish statements about how your device is so much better than competitor.
Result 1: Generate free press.
Step 2: Issue retraction stating that what was said is necessary true.
Result 2: Generate free press.

Maybe he was just overzealous but it just seemed like a PT Barnum move.

Maybe getting that kind of attention works to an extent. Whether this kind of marketing works to sell a few more units or is just an ill-conceived plan based on faulty conventional wisdom, it keeps happening. I don't think anyone has said whether or not they've found it actually works.

It's getting annoying, but then, most marketing annoys me. Apple's marketing is often no exception.
post #129 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I can’t tell either. While multitqask is an advantage referring to the Pre as having a wide varoety of third party programs is certainly sardonic.

]


multitqask ?
varoety ?
sardonic ?
= Wild friday night.

Or missing the keys on your new iphone.
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post #130 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlK View Post

Well, what I really wonder is when the first developer will port the WebOS GUI on top of iPhones WebKit engine. it would surely be possible to mimic it there pretty close.

And what would be the point exactly? It's not like webOS applications are web pages, webOS devs aren't in the situation iPhone devs for the first 12 months, they have access to the hardware through pretty normal APIs. It's just that these APIs are called via javascript (think Firefox, or OSX widgets) and the UI is written in (extended) HTML & CSS (once again, think Firefox's chrome, or widgets, or even Safari's developer tools which are written using HTML, CSS and JS)
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlK View Post

so to have WebOS style "multitasking" on iPhone is to go just one step further for the most part.

What?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlK View Post

Which goes to show that the iPhone is more capable than the Prē, because then there are 50,000 apps besides Safari to explore and 3,000+ iPhone web apps already.

Uh no, this and that are completely unrelated. It mostly goes to show that the iPhone has a ~16 months headstart on apps (since the SDK was released to developers in March 2008) and a 24 months headstart on webapps.

That's a place where Palm dropped the ball (though they've never been big about third-party devs, which might lead to their downfall in the end): Mojo (the webOS SDK) still hasn't been publicly released and is still "early access" (you have to apply for it and you may or may not get accepted).

On the one hand, it took Apple a full year to release their SDK; on the other hand Apple's SDK is here right now (and was built using tools well known to OSX developers) so the landscape has changed and the lack of an SDK will probably hurt Palm soon.

edit: oh yeah, webOS/Pre is far superior to iPhoneOS/iPhone on the OS update side: it can update transparently over the air, downloading the updates in the background when the phone isn't busy, that's pretty damn sweet and much less intrusive than Apple's "leave your phone tethered to iTunes for a few hours until the update has been fully downloaded and applied".
post #131 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajectory View Post

I think Palm's biggest problem is the name: Pre. What the hell does it mean? It's just stupid. Pre-what? What will the next phone be called, Post? Pri?

I think you may understand if you pronounce it correctly - it is not Pre, rhymes with Key, but Pre rhymes with Ray - as is "Pray" or in other words let us Pray that our device stands a chance of succeeding.
post #132 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The iPhone DOES multitask, it just doesn't allow third party programs to do so without Apple's approval, which is apparently very hard to get.

Uh, no, it does not truly Multi-Task. Can you run a twitter app, have your email app open and make a call at the same time? No.
post #133 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoneFrenzy View Post

Uh, no, it does not truly Multi-Task. Can you run a twitter app, have your email app open and make a call at the same time? No.

Can you listen to your music while surfing the web? I'm pretty sure you can, I'm doing it right now.

The iPhone does multitask (somewhat), but only some of Apple's apps.
post #134 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by masklinn View Post

And what would be the point exactly? It's not like webOS applications are web pages, webOS devs aren't in the situation iPhone devs for the first 12 months, they have access to the hardware through pretty normal APIs. It's just that these APIs are called via javascript (think Firefox, or OSX widgets) and the UI is written in (extended) HTML & CSS (once again, think Firefox's chrome, or widgets, or even Safari's developer tools which are written using HTML, CSS and JS)

What?

Uh no, this and that are completely unrelated. It mostly goes to show that the iPhone has a ~16 months headstart on apps (since the SDK was released to developers in March 2008) and a 24 months headstart on webapps.

That's a place where Palm dropped the ball (though they've never been big about third-party devs, which might lead to their downfall in the end): Mojo (the webOS SDK) still hasn't been publicly released and is still "early access" (you have to apply for it and you may or may not get accepted).

On the one hand, it took Apple a full year to release their SDK; on the other hand Apple's SDK is here right now (and was built using tools well known to OSX developers) so the landscape has changed and the lack of an SDK will probably hurt Palm soon.

edit: oh yeah, webOS/Pre is far superior to iPhoneOS/iPhone on the OS update side: it can update transparently over the air, downloading the updates in the background when the phone isn't busy, that's pretty damn sweet and much less intrusive than Apple's "leave your phone tethered to iTunes for a few hours until the update has been fully downloaded and applied".


The pre will sell fine.
The iphone will sell much more.
The pre will offer 2 for 1
or buy a pre and get a free zune.
The iphone still does not discount.
The pre will always be a 2nd tier phone.
A great 2nd tier phone.
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post #135 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by razorpit View Post

Gotta disagree with you, at one time Palm WAS the PDA market. Their innovations such as getting handwriting to work let Palm succceed where Apple failed. The Treo line set a new standard for smart phones and again they owned the market for several years. The problem was they stopped the innovation no thanks to one terrible decision after another from their management team. More attenion was made to what the company's name was and the logo instead of the product. I'm glad to see they are back, this will keep the pressure on Apple to innovate. As consumers we win!

Yes, they are something of a cautionary tale: an example of generally bad management, of why Apple made the right call when they killed off the clones, and of why you should never listen to the tech press, or the general wisdom, when they tell you what you need to do to make your company successful. Licensing Palm OS and allowing clones was bad enough for Palm, but turning themselves into just another clone maker by spinning off PalmSource was a complete and utter disaster. A disaster that Apple, thankfully, avoided, if only narrowly.
post #136 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

It means "Pre-historic"

How 'bout "Pre-hensile"!

Really, though, Pre may have certain not totally objective speed wins, but start-up, photo-upload email, and web-browsing are usually not mission critical repetitive tasks.

The testing pitting many different web pages seems more reliable.

And to echo posts above, it's about the ecosystem!
post #137 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Sadly this is true.

No, happily.
post #138 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney View Post

I assumed it was an acronym.

pretty reasonable effort

product of recent employes

predictable release ennui

...

Great post!
post #139 of 367
Okay I have had 4 Treos, and iPod touch and currently use Samsung WinMo Blackjack 2. (Way cheaper than iPhone with MediaNet plan). Anyway I tried the Pre for about 15 minutes in Sprint store and really I just couldn't figure it out. it seemed both slow, awkward and confusing to use. Very dependant on precise finger placement which was very difficult and that's from a person used to typing on the iPod Touch keyboard. It seemed to have none of the PalmOS intuitiveness. I felt like things I didn't want were just sliding all over the screen. The physical keyboard? Well the whole reason you use a vertically oriented phone is for one handed typing. I walk a mile to work everyday and often take care of all my morning email with one hand on my Blackjack. The Treo was just awkward. Too hard to hold and type with the keyboard extended, and the keyboard was way worse than the Treo 650 or Blackjack 2. On the plus side? The camera was okay.
post #140 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Yes and did anyone bother to check out the sales breakdown?

They reported $3.42B in sales for 7.8M handsets sold. Broadly, that would imply a revenue of less than $450 per handset. That would be on the low side compared to Apple, no?

In any event, RIMM was down nearly 5% yesterday, after its earnings announcement.
post #141 of 367
No most people have no idea what those are, my point is that with the iPhone you get the advantage of using these thechnologies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I wonder how many iPhone users even know what Objective-C or OpenGL really is. It doesn't strike me as something many people think about, possibly fewer than the people that know what an ARM chip is.
post #142 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by masklinn View Post

edit: oh yeah, webOS/Pre is far superior to iPhoneOS/iPhone on the OS update side: it can update transparently over the air, downloading the updates in the background when the phone isn't busy, that's pretty damn sweet and much less intrusive than Apple's "leave your phone tethered to iTunes for a few hours until the update has been fully downloaded and applied".

While that is pretty nice, it hardly takes a few hours to update an iPhone. it took 15 minutes from the time I clicked on the update button in iTunes until the final reboot of my iPhone - and that included the download of the iPhone OS from Apple (all 240MB of it!). And this was 6PM EST the day it became available.

While it would be cool to see iPhone OS updates done the same way Palm does, Apple's way isn't that bad. One of the nice things iTunes does is an automatic backup of your phone before the update is applied. How does the Pre handle an update gone bad? With the iPhone it just restores from backup if need be.
post #143 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by masklinn View Post

Can you listen to your music while surfing the web? I'm pretty sure you can, I'm doing it right now.

The iPhone does multitask (somewhat), but only some of Apple's apps.

You are absolutely correct. But I would like look at a wider definition of multitasking. Why do want to multitask? Four reasons come to mind:
1) Easily switch back and forth between multiple 'tasks'
2) Related to that: quickly switch back and forth between multiple 'tasks'
3) Do multiple things in parallel
4) Run background tasks

All these four aspects are to some degree fulfilled by the iPhone already. But the Pre does several of them better. Partly because the Pre allows for unrestricted background processes but partly because it uses a different UI. How do I switch between writing an e-mail and browsing the web? On the Pre it is a flick of the finger on the touchscreen on the iPhone it means going off the touchscreen, pressing a hardware button (which takes considerably more force than the touchscreen) and hitting the touchscreen again. I think this going off the touchscreen mars the 'multitask' experience on the iPhone noticeably. Plus that launching some apps is noticeably slower than switching to them on the Pre (but the 3GS improved that a lot).
post #144 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

I can't quite tell if you're being sarcastic.

I am
post #145 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoneFrenzy View Post

Uh, no, it does not truly Multi-Task. Can you run a twitter app, have your email app open and make a call at the same time? No.

How do you define having an e-mail open? I can start writing an e-mail on my iPhone, switch to the phone app, start a call, switch back to the e-mail app and continue writing while I still talk to the person at other end of my call.
And how can you simultaneously type into a twitter client (and read in it) and have an e-mail open at the same time on the Pre? You cannot because the screen is not large enough for it. What you can do is to quickly switch between the two apps, which you can also do with the iPhone, just press the home button and open the other app, it will open exactly where you had left off before.
post #146 of 367
i would like to multitask a voice dialing program that doesn't require me to handle my phone

also since 3.0 is out my speed (speedtest iphone app) shows 2100kbsat 830 am this morning that's up from
about 900-1100 sometimes my old speed was better than my cable (1.5k package)
so they must be doing something to speed things up and i'm in a dinky town eastern ky
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post #147 of 367
I was playing around with my 3GS last night and this baby screams:



post #148 of 367
Over the air updates are more conveninet but it's not necessarily superior. The reason you plug an iPhone in for updates is because the entire OS is replaced instead of simply adding a patch. Replacing the OS would seem a more stable solution than an OTA patch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by masklinn View Post

edit: oh yeah, webOS/Pre is far superior to iPhoneOS/iPhone on the OS update side: it can update transparently over the air, downloading the updates in the background when the phone isn't busy, that's pretty damn sweet and much less intrusive than Apple's "leave your phone tethered to iTunes for a few hours until the update has been fully downloaded and applied".
post #149 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Over the air updates are more conveninet but it's not necessarily superior. The reason you plug an iPhone in for updates is because the entire OS is replaced instead of simply adding a patch. Replacing the OS would seem a more stable solution than an OTA patch.

Not to mention you can kill several birds with one stone while your iPhone is plugged in: updates, media and data sync, and charging.
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post #150 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Unless Palm has figure out how to do OTA power, you're going to have to either plug your Pre in or put it on its inductive charger, close to every day...

Surely someone is working on a charging system that generates electricity out of the earth's magnetic field as you move through it.
post #151 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Postulant View Post

I was playing around with my 3GS last night and this baby screams:




Upload looks slows. Could you run it again, but on 3G?

I had mine up over 10MBs on Wi-Fi and 2.8 on 3G with my 3G Thursday night.
post #152 of 367
WOW YOUR SPEED ROCKS
this morning i got 2100 usually i get 900-1200
this increase has been since 3.0 was announced.
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post #153 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

They reported $3.42B in sales for 7.8M handsets sold. Broadly, that would imply a revenue of less than $450 per handset. That would be on the low side compared to Apple, no?

In any event, RIMM was down nearly 5% yesterday, after its earnings announcement.

That was my point of the question. RIM is cutting it's margins and with being a phone only company it's going to see even lower margins to try and keep Apple from expanding--it's going to fail.

Apple's entire ecosystem is covered when it comes to the iPhone/iPod lines.

With the next rev of iPhone going Mulit-core it will be even more evident.
post #154 of 367
Yet another reason why the iphone will sell a ton of phones very very soon. This article also states that the new software speeds up and adds new dimentions the old 3g phones too.

<<<<< Now add the ability to turn the iPhone into a kind of skeleton key for all kinds of other devices. Apple will now let developers turn the iPhone into a control panel for practically any piece of electronics you can plug it into. Another radical feature: the ability to automatically find and sync up wirelessly with software running on another iPhone or iPod touch.

For example, SGN's jet fighter game, "F.A.S.T.," allows players to dogfight with nearby iPhone users over a Bluetooth connection thanks to this week's iPhone software update, whether or not you're buying the new iPhone. "When you have openness, you have the catalyst for expedited innovation from tens of thousands of developers," Pishevar says .>>>>


WOW I am saving up to buy the MBP 15 2 chip. But its getting hard to ignore the 3gs.

>>>>>>>>the full article below >>>>>>>>>

http://www.forbes.com/2009/06/18/app...rsonal-3g.html


Good Read . The pre doesn't matter anymore. They can sell a trillion. But the sweet sexy powerful 3gs,is the new standard by which all phones will be measured. Not to better the 3gs . No no that won't happen. We gauge how close any new phone can come to the 3gs.

peace

9
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post #155 of 367
From Davewrite on MDN:

After the good reviews and the raves from iPhone 3Gs customers the Palm Pre apologists were all over the forums and blogs.

Their comments are way too funny.

They're saying (I paraphrase)

-- 50,000 apps? Who cares? I don't NEED apps!
-- video? I carry around my video camera so I don't need video. Easy editing and uploading to internet? like who cares.
-- Pre fragile. Use a HIP HOLSTER (true comment).
"I wrap mine when I go out in bubble warp" (another actual comment I swear!)
-- Pre battery life? Easy, don't use it too often, switch everything like Wifi off!
-- My second one died in less than a week, but that's ok! I got the insurance. (another actual comment)
-- I DON'T play games on the phone so who cares about all those iPhone games.
-- I know about those cracked screens but EVERY iPhone user has a cracked screen before (another actual statement).
-- who cares about tap on focus on the iPhone. My $$$$ Nikon takes better pictures.
-- google maps with magnetometer? Useless! I don't get lost on city streets.
-- Voice control is just a gimmick. Don't need it, what are fingers for?
-- Plastic screens are as durable as glass.
-- I can MULTITASK unlike the iPhone, and I got like 30 apps to choose from! I haven't bought any yet because they're not very interesting but I'm sure in time they will be lots more! of course they have to release the SDK first....
-- I carry my Flip to take video, my Canon SLR for pictures, my PSP for games and my Pre for phone calls. Why the heck do I need an iPhone? All I need is big enough gadget bag and make sure my Pre is wrapped in bubble wrap....


lol!
post #156 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

From Davewrite on MDN:

That sounds satirical to me.
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post #157 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That sounds satirical to me.

That's probably one more thing Quadra 610 is blind to.
post #158 of 367
Bought my first iPhone yesterday, stood in line for a quick 15-20 minutes. After 10 years of Sprint I switched to get the iPhone. I looked at the Pre - too small and limited for me. Was interesting, because several people around me were switching carriers also. We all commented how Sprint and T-mobile sounded panicked when we called to get our account number to switch. Sprint kept asking, "Why?" I needed it and telling me they "have an array of great phones." One guy said how T-Mobile did their best to talk him out of it. Another guy who had the BB Storm complained the OS was no good (my manager has one and said it crashed while taking a photo). Another guy kept repeating how Consumer Reports rated the G1 as the best phone, yet he was in line for an iPhone.

People want what they want, and carriers were too busy laughing at the first iPhone instead of trying to match them. Now they're all rushing to compete, but they gave Apple too big of a lead and can't seem to match their ingenuity, innovation, the way they put a new spin on old established technology.
post #159 of 367
My mother has a storm and likes it

I have used it quite a bit from her and find it fine but just not that great. Not really worth the price she paid for it.
post #160 of 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep View Post

Yet another reason why the iphone will sell a ton of phones very very soon. This article also states that the new software speeds up and adds new dimentions the old 3g phones too.

I strongly disagree that 3.0 software speeds up old phones. It clearly made mine much more sluggish. Glad I just picked up the 3GS today Line moved very quickly, took me 30 minutes to get in and out in Clarendon store.
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