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The Biggest Threat to Obama's Health Care "Reform" - Reality - Page 30

post #1161 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Oh, right. I got you know. Yeah, lots of idiots can agree and vote on something and make it so. Sadly, that doesn't remove the highly predictable negative consequences. So, yes, we agree. Lots of people can agree on the wrong thing and make the wrong choice. No doubt of that.

And when those consequences don't happen you must face that it can only go worse for the right who's been predicting scary things that don't come true.
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post #1162 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

And when those consequences don't happen you must face that it can only go worse for the right who's been predicting scary things that don't come true.

Tell me then, what happens to those who predict really bad things will happen (e.g., unemployment might go up to...gasp...9%) if we don't immediately pass a massive spending bill, and then things...ummm...get actually worse after that happens?

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post #1163 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Tell me then, what happens to those who predict really bad things will happen (e.g., unemployment might go up to...gasp...9%) if we don't immediately pass a massive spending bill, and then things...ummm...get actually worse after that happens?

Well for one thing those people you're talking about weren't in power when this started. At least they did something which is more than what the ruling party did when it started. And even if it falls apart things do seem to slowly be improving. Worse economic crisis since the Great Depression and all. Tell me. What do you think will happen if things continue to improve?
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post #1164 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Well for one thing those people you're talking about weren't in power when this started.

Irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

At least they did something which is more than what the ruling party when it started. And even if it falls apart things do seem to slowly be improving. Worse economic crisis since the Great Depression and all.

You didn't answer my question.

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post #1165 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Irrelevant.



You didn't answer my question.

Quote:
Irrelevant

Very relevant. When you're in charge you are responsible for what happens. Otherwise you shouldn't be in charge. The same goes for Obama but unlike the Bush administration we haven't seen an outcome yet. There's no way the Bush administration can improve on the issues now.

Quote:
You didn't answer my question

If you'd read in a way I think I did.
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post #1166 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Very relevant.

No it isn't. Obama cannot hide behind this "that happened before me" crap forever. I'm sure he'll try though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

When you're in charge you are respisible for what happens. Otherwise you shouldn't be in charge.

Agreed. And when Obama came to power in January 2009, his administration made dire predictions about employment without the immediate passage of a massive spending bill and, conversely, much rosier predictions of the results if the massive spending bill was passed. They were wrong. Very wrong. So wrong in fact that, by their own predictions doing nothing would have been a better course of action.

Now, going back to your statement: "And when those consequences don't happen you must face that it can only go worse for the right who's been predicting scary things that don't come true."

What should happen to Obama?

Further, what does this suggest about his administration's ability to predict with any degree of accuracy? And why should we believe anything they say about health care?

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post #1167 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

No it isn't. Obama cannot hide behind this "that happened before me" crap forever. I'm sure he'll try though.




Agreed. And when Obama came to power in January 2009, his administration made dire predictions about employment without the immediate passage of a massive spending bill and, conversely, much rosier predictions of the results if the massive spending bill was passed. They were wrong. Very wrong. So wrong in fact that, by their own predictions doing nothing would have been a better course of action.

Now, going back to your statement: "And when those consequences don't happen you must face that it can only go worse for the right who's been predicting scary things that don't come true."

What should happen to Obama?

Further, what does this suggest about his administration's ability to predict with any degree of accuracy? And why should we believe anything they say about health care?

Quote:
No it isn't. Obama cannot hide behind this "that happened before me" crap forever. I'm sure he'll try though.

He doesn't have to. But I'm sure you'll never see it.

Quote:
So wrong in fact that, by their own predictions doing nothing would have been a better course of action

Thank you for you opinion on something that hasn't and can never happen now.
Economists like Paul Krugman have a different take. You'll excuse me if I go with the expert's opinion instead of yours?

Quote:
What should happen to Obama?

What could have happened was much worse than what did. Once again that's the experts talking not you or me. So you see it's a different situation ( but nice try at a reversal ). In the case of healthcare to get back on topic action was taken and if the predicted scary things don't happen the profits will have egg on their collective faces.

Quote:
Further, what does this suggest about his administration's ability to predict with any degree of accuracy? And why should we believe anything they say about health care?

Sophistry.
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post #1168 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

The reason Canada restricted private practice is evidently because there are too few doctors, making it difficult to have a fully available public system and still allow doctors to charge for private practice should they choose to do so.

That is complete nonsense.

If you do the research, you will find that to balance the budgets in the 90's provincial and federal bureaucrats cut enrollments at medical schools to save money. That is why there is a doctor shortage currently in Canada.

It also perfectly illustrates why it is dangerous to hand over health care decisions to the government.
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post #1169 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

He doesn't have to. But I'm sure you'll never see it.

See what? That Barack "It's Not My Fault" Obama is a spineless buck passer?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Thank you for you opinion on something that hasn't and can never happen now.

Look at the numbers yourself. You're evading because the numbers are against you on this. They laid the numbers out. They made the predictions. They were way, way wrong. Now they're falling back on the careworn and unprovable claim that "well, things would have been even worse." And people like you buy this hook, line and sinker.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Economists like Paul Krugman have a different take. You'll excuse me if I go with the expert's opinion instead of yours?

Krugman is a fucking hypocritical, partisan, flip-flopping moron. He doesn't even agree with himself half the time. Trusting what he says depends on which side of his mouth he's talking out of.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

What could have happened was much worse than what did.

How do you know that?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

In the case of healthcare to get back on topic action was taken and if the predicted scary things don't happen the profits will have egg on their collective faces.

It's prophet.

And what if things get worse with this so-called reform? What then? Who has egg on their face then? Or will you continue to blame someone else other than those who have implemented this further government intrusion into a market that is fucked up because of too much government intrusion already? Will you even be able to see the failings? My guess is no because most, if not all, of the people that support this thing can't even see the government's current failures in this very market.

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post #1170 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

It also perfectly illustrates why it is dangerous to hand over health care decisions to the government.

And that's only one of the reasons. Wait until health care decisions like coverage, procedures, etc. become politicized.

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post #1171 of 2360
"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare but only those specifically enumerated."

-- Thomas Jefferson

No power over health care was specifically enumerated in the Constitution or Amendments. Therefore, the 10th Amendment applies.

Also, I read this little tidbit in a CNN story:

Quote:
In an impassioned speech, Rep. John Lewis, D-Georgia, urges his colleagues to pass health care reform.

"This may be the most important vote that we cast as members of this body. We have a moral obligation today, tonight to make health care a right and not a privilege," Lewis said.

Legislating morality is not only dangerous, it is unconstitutional.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #1172 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare but only those specifically enumerated."

-- Thomas Jefferson

Fucking extremist!


Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

No power over health care was specifically enumerated in the Constitution or Amendments. Therefore, the 10th Amendment applies.

If anyone in Congress has actually read the constitution (something that would amaze me) they seem unable to count past the 8th amendment and don't even know the 9th and 10th exist.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Legislating morality is not only dangerous, it is unconstitutional.

You didn't get the memo. Legislating morality is only bad when it is conservative morality. When it is liberal morality, then it's okay.

Not only that but Mr. Lewis is simply wrong. Governments don't give us our rights. On the best days they actually protect them. But that's a little old-fashioned I guess. Dear God, how far we have drifted from the foundation of this once great nation.

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post #1173 of 2360
Passed!

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #1174 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Dear God, how far we have drifted from the foundation of this once great nation.

From the Declaration of Independence (emphasis mine):

Quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator (not their government) with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

What an amazing, inspired document this is! Sometimes I wonder why we even protect it behind security systems, barricades, vaults, and bullet-proof glass when the government that was born out of it is becoming more and more like that from which independence was declared.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #1175 of 2360
Now that the bill has passed (up to 219 now so a good buffer), will Rush really be leaving the country?

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #1176 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Passed!

A victory for humanity.
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post #1177 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

A victory for humanity.

Really? How so?

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post #1178 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

A victory for humanity.

Well, a victory for those who will benefit from the property that is forcibly removed from others deemed to not be entitled to it by the government, anyway.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #1179 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Now that the bill has passed (up to 219 now so a good buffer), will Rush really be leaving the country?

LOL!
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post #1180 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

See what? That Barack "It's Not My Fault" Obama is a spineless buck passer?




Look at the numbers yourself. You're evading because the numbers are against you on this. They laid the numbers out. They made the predictions. They were way, way wrong. Now they're falling back on the careworn and unprovable claim that "well, things would have been even worse." And people like you buy this hook, line and sinker.




Krugman is a fucking hypocritical, partisan, flip-flopping moron. He doesn't even agree with himself half the time. Trusting what he says depends on which side of his mouth he's talking out of.




How do you know that?




It's prophet.

And what if things get worse with this so-called reform? What then? Who has egg on their face then? Or will you continue to blame someone else other than those who have implemented this further government intrusion into a market that is fucked up because of too much government intrusion already? Will you even be able to see the failings? My guess is no because most, if not all, of the people that support this thing can't even see the government's current failures in this very market.


Quote:
It's prophet.

Gee that makes everything I said wrong doesn't it?

However we've been all through how much the spelling bee counts for here.


PPD sour grapes.

You can hiss and spit all you want but it won't make your side look any better for it.
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post #1181 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoMan01 View Post

President Obama should have included two provisions that would have DRASTICALLY lowered the opposition to the bill:

1) Allow insurance companies to sell policies across state lines on a regional basis. That means in any state we could choose between 15 to 20 different insurance plans, and the competition for customers will at once cut the price of premiums substantially.

2) Allow small businesses under 50 total employees in size to join a buying pool to do large scale group buys of the 15 to 20 different plans I mentioned above. A large scale group buy would spread the risk over a large group of people, cutting the premium cost even further.

That would mean making the free market system better. That is not the objective here.
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post #1182 of 2360
House sends health care bill to Obama's desk
President to sign reforms into law; 'fixes' still require Senate action


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35961584...orm/?GT1=43001

It's done.
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post #1183 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

You can hiss and spit all you want but it won't make your side look any better for it.

"Your side." "My side." This is BS. You are the one suffering from what you call "partisan disorder."

In reality the only two sides are those who reduce freedom and those who want freedom. Those who advocate for less freedom and those who advocate for more freedom.

I'll give you a hint this isn't about Democrats and Republicans. The Coke and Pepsi parties.

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post #1184 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

"Your side." "My side." This is BS. You are the one suffering from what you call "partisan disorder."

In reality the only two sides are those who reduce freedom and those who want freedom. Those who advocate for less freedom and those who advocate for more freedom.

I'll give you a hint this isn't about Democrats and Republicans. The Coke and Pepsi parties.

Once again nice try at a reversal. And I've noticed when the going get's tough for the Republicans the cry is always " I'm not a republican ( I may sound like a republican ) but I'm not a republican ". What's the difference? Republicans or something scarier. And now you claim not to have a side. Perhaps you don't have a viewpoint as well when it suits you. It is you who through your own responses have displayed PPD.

Sorry about the loss but poor baby.

I'll leave you now to hissing and spitting.
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post #1185 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Once again nice try at a reversal. And I've noticed when the going get's tough for the Republicans the cry is always " I'm not a republican ( I may sound like a republican ) but I'm not a republican ". What's the difference? Republicans or something scarier. And now you claim not to have a side. Perhaps you don't have a viewpoint as well when it suits you. It is you who through your own responses have displayed PPD.

I can't help you with your delusions.

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post #1186 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

That would mean making the free market system better. That is not the objective here.

You should read Raymond Chu angrily disagree (name might be wrong, I forget). Credit cards are like that, it creates a low bar. A rush to the bottom.
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post #1187 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Politico.com
Earlier this week, CBO released preliminary estimates suggesting that the health care proposals — the most ambitious currently under discussion — from the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee would cost $1 trillion and trim the number of uninsured by only 16 million.

With a few more reports like this, CBO could quickly prove more damaging to the administration’s health care efforts than could Republican attacks about “socialized medicine.”



That darn CBO might have to report on the cost of the bill and that would of course not be propaganda so it would damage the Obama plan.

The solution...

The most profound challenge to President Barack Obama’s health care plan
that CBO represents is its reputation for nonpartisan economic analysis. Once a figure is floated, it can be difficult for the administration to counteract politically. Trying to dispute technical details from CBO can quickly make voters’ eyes glaze over.

Obama can’t get trapped into a dry debate that is just about the numbers. Whatever form his final proposal takes, his best bet will be to keep public attention focused on the major objectives behind health care reform and the vital changes that will result from overhauling the system. This is what presidents can do well: shape the agenda and define a bill, rather than engage in an econometric numbers game with the experts huddled in CBO.

We don't need to know the numbers. If we do know the numbers... well we might be informed and that would be very bad for public attention. What the president needs to do is what he has been doing. He can smile, go on some date nights, talk about platitudes like "fiscal responsibility" while doubling the spending and national debt or maybe talk about how our allies like us and the apologies while they all sharpen their sabers.

Pretty pictures, funny jokes, but anything that represents numbers, policies, reality, those are threats. Send out the clowns to deal with them. Make sure HuffPo knows who was "blasted", "schooled", "slammed" so we don't have to think about those messy things like... the cost and benefit.

The biggest threat, OK, here are the CBO numbers courtesy of HuffPo your favorite-

"Comprehensive health care reform will cost the federal government $940 billion over a ten-year period, but will increase revenue and cut other costs by a greater amount, leading to a reduction of $138 billion in the federal deficit over the same period, according to an analysis by the Congressional Budget Office, a Democratic source tells HuffPost. It will cut the deficit by $1.2 trillion over the second ten year period.

The source said it also extends Medicare's solvency by at least nine years and reduces the rate of its growth by 1.4 percent, while closing the doughnut hole for seniors, meaning there will no longer be a gap in coverage of medication. The CBO also estimated it would extend coverage to 32 million additional people."
~ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_502543.html
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post #1188 of 2360
Perhaps we should lock this thread, "The Biggest Threat to Obama's Health Care "Reform" - Reality", now?
post #1189 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Legislating morality is not only dangerous, it is unconstitutional.

Tell that to all the Rethugs who push for anti-same sex marriage and anti-abortion legislation. You guys are in the minority among conservatives if you oppose those pieces of shit ideas.
post #1190 of 2360
I'm curious about something. If this bill is as good as all of the supporters think it is, then why did the people who voted for it specifically exempt themselves from participation in the system they're creating?

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post #1191 of 2360
Before anyone pops the champagne corks, this thing isn't over yet: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35977921...h_care_reform/

Thankfully there's still a chance to derail it.

And that's not even counting the lawsuits from the states or various nullification efforts in the states.

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post #1192 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Perhaps we should lock this thread, "The Biggest Threat to Obama's Health Care "Reform" - Reality", now?

No, because reality is still the biggest threat to the promises and claims of what this bill is expected to actually achieve.

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post #1193 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I'm curious about something. If this bill is as good as all of the supporters think it is, then why did the people who voted for it specifically exempt themselves from participation in the system they're creating?

They didnt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4kF1XRMVn8

Edit: if your case against this bill is so strong, why do you have to keep on making so much shit up?
post #1194 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

They didnt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4kF1XRMVn8

Edit: if your case against this bill is so strong, why do you have to keep on making so much shit up?

I wasn't actually making shit up. It was in there (in the Senate bill). Apparently is has been removed though.

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post #1195 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I wasn't actually making shit up. It was in there (in the Senate bill). Apparently is has been removed though.

You saw that in a chain email or on Fox news, not the Senate bill. The Senate bill - exactly as is, unchanged - passed the House last night and will be signed into law tomorrow.
post #1196 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Wow indeed! Someone on that side really get's it for a change. It sounds like the republicans and the right are close to having to accept the inevitable. The republicans must break with the Neocons, The Tea parties, the Becks, the Palins, and the Limbaughs and become the Republican party again or fade into obscurity.

This was the Democratic party's Waterloo, not the Republicans'. They have assured themselves the loss of power at this point. Assured.
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post #1197 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

You saw that in a chain email or on Fox news, not the Senate bill.

Wrong. I haven't seen any chain emails on this subject at all and I don't watch Fox news.

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post #1198 of 2360
So let's assume that this thing gets past all of the Senate procedures (maybe not) and the legal challenges (maybe not). When do we start hearing the excuses for when it fails to achieve its goals? Will those failures also be blamed on Bush?

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post #1199 of 2360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The biggest threat, OK, here are the CBO numbers courtesy of HuffPo your favorite-

"Comprehensive health care reform will cost the federal government $940 billion over a ten-year period, but will increase revenue and cut other costs by a greater amount, leading to a reduction of $138 billion in the federal deficit over the same period, according to an analysis by the Congressional Budget Office, a Democratic source tells HuffPost. It will cut the deficit by $1.2 trillion over the second ten year period.

The source said it also extends Medicare's solvency by at least nine years and reduces the rate of its growth by 1.4 percent, while closing the doughnut hole for seniors, meaning there will no longer be a gap in coverage of medication. The CBO also estimated it would extend coverage to 32 million additional people."
~ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_502543.html

Yes and you add back in the removal of the Medicare reimbursement cut (I know that sounds convoluted but we are talking government here) and the plan goes back into the red. Finally it looks much worse once the gimmicks are gone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Perhaps we should lock this thread, "The Biggest Threat to Obama's Health Care "Reform" - Reality", now?

Oh I don't think so. See those trying to put us in the POR house have had their say, now the reality aka the voters will have theirs come November. In the meantime the voters get to start paying today for benefits a minority of them (because 85%+ already have health care and those who don't are often on a temporary basis between jobs) will receive starting four years from now. For the next four years it is all pain, no gain. Plus those nice midterm elections have now been completely nationalized. No escaping this or claiming local issues should prevail now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I'm curious about something. If this bill is as good as all of the supporters think it is, then why did the people who voted for it specifically exempt themselves from participation in the system they're creating?

The better question is why did it require bribes, threats and arm twisting to secure the votes of their own party. BTW, if I recall correctly, about a dozen states are ready to sue and will move forward on those suits now. It's that "I'm so post partisan that 15% of my party, all of the opposition party and dozens of states now sue" change we all hoped for I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

This was the Democratic party's Waterloo, not the Republicans'. They have assured themselves the loss of power at this point. Assured.

Well the liberal media complex still has several months of calling us all racists, terrorists, and extremists to try to change our minds.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #1200 of 2360
So since "reality" and "reform" have come to health care, it is time to begin thinking about what some of the negative side-effects and unintended consequences might end up being. This is purely a thought exercise because I realize that in liberal Democrat reality there are no negative side-effects or unintended consequences. But let's have fun with it anyway.

Let's begin with CNN's summary of "What health care reform means for your business":

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Insurers will no longer be able to set rates or exclude coverage based on pre-existing conditions, and can vary premiums only by geographic location, age, and tobacco use.

These restrictions, however, would not kick in until 2014. Going into effect immediately: a ban on lifetime limits on coverage, and on "rescission" (canceling policies already issued) except in cases of fraud.

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Starting in 2014, businesses with more than 50 employees will be required to either offer healthcare coverage or pay a penalty of $750 a year per full-time worker. The coverage offered will also have to meet minimum benefits -- covering both a specific set of services and 60% of employee health costs overall -- or else employers will face additional penalties. The $750-per-employee penalty for not providing insurance would rise to $2,000 under the House bill.

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So-called "Cadillac" plans costing more than $10,200 a year for individuals or $27,500 for family coverage (not counting dental and vision plans) will be subject to a 40% tax on the portion of the cost that exceeds the limit. Though the tax would actually be paid by insurers, it's expected that it would be passed along to plan holders in the form of higher premiums. The Cadillac tax would be delayed until 2018 and apply only to the most expensive plans under the House bill.

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Individuals earning more than $200,000 a year, or couples earning $250,000 or more, would be hit with a 3.8% surcharge on investment income to help pay for the bill.

I wonder, will there be any unexpected side-effects or consequences that might come about as a result of these "features" that are not immediately obvious to those are wearing rose-colored glasses?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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