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The Biggest Threat to Obama's Health Care "Reform" - Reality - Page 4

post #121 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

babies
the old
the poor

In all these cases, according to the articles you linked, lack of existing funds wasn't cited as the reason for failure in care. In the first, the care giver says "Our quota is never full". the second, the reason was a natural disaster and a nursing home abandoned them, and the third, hospitals violate existing laws.

Your evidence isn't supporting your claims.
post #122 of 2360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

In all these cases, according to the articles you linked, lack of existing funds wasn't cited as the reason for failure in care. In the first, the care giver says "Our quota is never full". the second, the reason was a natural disaster and a nursing home abandoned them, and the third, hospitals violate existing laws.

Your evidence isn't supporting your claims.

Not only that but the claimed examples take place in an age full of good intentions and government thievery. Utopia is never achieved. Suffering never completely ends. Death is always still the final state.

Quote:
Not everyone has family/friends.
Not everyone has family/friends that can help.
Not everyone has family/friends that wants to help.
Not everyone has family/friends that even knows help is needed.

If someone has managed to go through their entire lives and somehow alienate every single person they have encountered to the point that no one wants to help them no matter the circumstance, then in my view, no one should be forced to help them. If they were selfish enough to never save a dime for themselves and selfish enough to never cultivate a single interest or relationship with anyone out there, then let the chips fall where they may. If they are beyond the reach of even pity and every available charity everywhere, then again, let the chips fall where they may.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #123 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Well there used to be this concept called saving. It was what we did before we became the world's largest debtor nation.

Typical Republican response. No margin for error within their ideology is there. Got stuck getting sick? Oh well. Guess you didn't save enough. Lost your job? Oh well. Guess you your a big dumb dumb. Don't make enough to afford health care for the entire family? Oh well. Sucks you don't live in Canada.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #124 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

If someone has managed to go through their entire lives and somehow alienate every single person they have encountered to the point that no one wants to help them no matter the circumstance, then in my view, no one should be forced to help them.

Un-fucking-believable. I'm not try to be clever, or cute, or wry. But, wow, dude. Just wow.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #125 of 2360
Personal accountability and responsibility? What's that?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #126 of 2360
I knew you guys were cold hearted. But this takes the cake. And certainly not very Christian of any of you.

"My brother might be an asshole. But he's my brother."
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #127 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

I knew you guys were cold hearted. But this takes the cake. And certainly not very Christian of any of you.

"My brother might be an asshole. But he's my brother."

You're only seeing what you want to see and quickly generalizing and making blanket statements about people who you disagree with.

Just because I say the government should not be involved in charity or welfare does not mean I don't think charity or welfare should exist at all.

My church, for example, devotes quite a bit of its resources to charitable, welfare, and humanitarian causes and I'm grateful to be a part of that.

http://providentliving.org/

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #128 of 2360
I'm sorry. I just thought American was the greatest country on earth. What was I thinking.

"Ass long as it doesn't cost too much." America's New Motto.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #129 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

I'm sorry. I just thought American was the greatest country on earth. What was I thinking.

"Ass long as it doesn't cost too much." America's New Motto.

For me, cost is only a part of the issue.

Is universal government-run healthcare constitutional? No, it is not.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #130 of 2360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Un-fucking-believable. I'm not try to be clever, or cute, or wry. But, wow, dude. Just wow.

What do you mean wow? Read the criteria carefully. Groverat said this person was a person that NO repeat NO family, friends or charitable organizations would be willing to help.

That includes you. The person would be beyond pity and beyond the help of anyone OTHER than government.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

I knew you guys were cold hearted. But this takes the cake. And certainly not very Christian of any of you.

"My brother might be an asshole. But he's my brother."

Hey don't be surprised if when someone crafts a scenario in which the only choice is be painted into a corner, that the choice stinks.

Can you think of a person that would be "un-help-able" by Grove's criteria? Can you imagine taking that asshole brother of yours down to ten relief organizations and every single one of them turning him down and while you are in them asking for help he lights your car on fire and then tells you to fuck off while crawling away on his arthritic knees. He described the person as being beyond the help of friends, family and organizations that are not the government. Who the hell meets that criteria?

See that would be the only type of scenario I can think of to even match what he says. As Taskiss notes, the links don't support his claims. I've never met someone that has no friends, family, savings and has burned every possible bridge with everyone everywhere.

See in Grove's scenario your brother wouldn't just be an asshole. He'd have to be the type of person who was terrible enough to drive you to not help him thus justifying the government extracting the money from you to help him anyway. He'd have to murder your wife, cut out both your kidneys and sell them while burning down your home, and stealing your cars.

If there were such a person, a person that not a soul or organization anywhere would ever care to redeem, why should the government redeem them? Why should they steal and not allow the judgment of all those parties to stand?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #131 of 2360
Whatever, dude. They're your statements. At least you're standing by them I guess.

"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #132 of 2360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Whatever, dude. They're your statements. At least you're standing by them I guess.


I'd love to have an answer to these questions...

If there were such a person, a person that not a soul or organization anywhere would ever care to redeem, why should the government redeem them? Why should they steal and not allow the judgment of all those parties to stand?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #133 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I'd love to have an answer to these questions...

If there were such a person, a person that not a soul or organization anywhere would ever care to redeem, why should the government redeem them? Why should they steal and not allow the judgment of all those parties to stand?

Wow. Providing health care for the downtrodden and the forgotten is now "stealing". Again, very Christian and patriotic of you.

America, We Don't Do Safety Nets™®
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #134 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

I'm sorry. I just thought American was the greatest country on earth. What was I thinking.

I guess you were thinking America was a socialist country, given your apparent disillusion. Never has been, but it may be one day. I seriously hope not, but I suppose it's possible.
post #135 of 2360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Wow. Providing health care for the downtrodden and the forgotten is now "stealing". Again, very Christian and patriotic of you.

Please answer the question rather than casting aspersions around.

If there were such a person, a person that not a soul or organization anywhere would ever care to redeem, why should the government redeem them? Why should they steal and not allow the judgment of all those parties to stand?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #136 of 2360
Quote:
If someone has managed to go through their entire lives and somehow alienate every single person they have encountered to the point that no one wants to help them no matter the circumstance, then in my view, no one should be forced to help them.

And if a child is born to a drug-addicted single mother?
(This happens all the time, by the way. Some of my students are the children of drug-addicted single mothers with no family anywhere near.)

I find it bizarre that you think the only reason people do not have family and friends is that they have alienated them.

"I had a caring family and group of friends, so I guess everyone else did, too!" *bops along happily in the bubble*

Quote:
If they were selfish enough to never save a dime for themselves and selfish enough to never cultivate a single interest or relationship with anyone out there, then let the chips fall where they may. If they are beyond the reach of even pity and every available charity everywhere, then again, let the chips fall where they may.

What does "let the chips fall where they may" mean? Euphemism, in this case, is intellectual cowardice. Be honest.

Quote:
If there were such a person, a person that not a soul or organization anywhere would ever care to redeem, why should the government redeem them?

What I find particularly striking is that I clearly outlined three things (ability to help, willingness to help, and knowledge that help is even needed) and you focus solely on willingness. You have completely ignored the other two, I suppose because you are unable to address them satisfactorily.

Sometimes there are people who want to help, but can't. What good does it do my poor family to know that I have a treatable cancer if they cannot pay for it? What good does it do for there to be a charitable organization that can help me if I do not know who they are and they do not know who I am?

Again, this might be an issue of simply living inside a bubble, but there are many communities out there that are simply without the power to do much of anything.

And my GOD it is galling to read this constant bootstraps sloganeering from someone whose paycheck is STOLEN from the taxpayer.
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post #137 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Sometimes there are people who want to help, but can't. What good does it do my poor family to know that I have a treatable cancer if they cannot pay for it? What good does it do for there to be a charitable organization that can help me if I do not know who they are and they do not know who I am?

America, a country for the young, healthy and successful. Everyone else need not apply!©
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #138 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Please answer the question rather than casting aspersions around.

If there were such a person, a person that not a soul or organization anywhere would ever care to redeem, why should the government redeem them? Why should they steal and not allow the judgment of all those parties to stand?

Because that's what we do in this fucking country, Ok? We take care of our brothers and sisters and countrymen. That's what makes us better. That's what makes us superior. That's what makes us most in God's image (if you believe in that sorta thing - I don't - but I appear to be more Christian than Christians these days).
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #139 of 2360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

And if a child is born to a drug-addicted single mother?
(This happens all the time, by the way. Some of my students are the children of drug-addicted single mothers with no family anywhere near.)

I find it bizarre that you think the only reason people do not have family and friends is that they have alienated them.

"I had a caring family and group of friends, so I guess everyone else did, too!" *bops along happily in the bubble*

Meanwhile I find the bubble that declares that there would never be a single charitable organization to help those drug-addicted children if not for the government. I find it bizarre that you think such children would never receive aide from anyone. We know the exact opposite to be true in reality.

So enjoy your own bubble.

Quote:
What does "let the chips fall where they may" mean? Euphemism, in this case, is intellectual cowardice. Be honest.

Be honest, this is nothing more than an ad-hom attempt and phrases like intellectual cowardice reflect no true desire to have dialog.

Quote:
What I find particularly striking is that I clearly outlined three things (ability to help, willingness to help, and knowledge that help is even needed) and you focus solely on willingness. You have completely ignored the other two, I suppose because you are unable to address them satisfactorily.

Keep supposing from within your bubble. The criteria provided made it clear that aid organizations would deny them for some reason and thus the ONLY avenue of help they could seek would be government. Charitable organizations have all those criteria. You declared a special hypothetical where they would for some reason be unwilling and thus the ONLY possible outcome would be government.

Please read your own posts before casting about accusations.

Quote:
Sometimes there are people who want to help, but can't. What good does it do my poor family to know that I have a treatable cancer if they cannot pay for it? What good does it do for there to be a charitable organization that can help me if I do not know who they are and they do not know who I am?

How is this any different from today? The stats I provided already noted that of the uninsured, millions already qualified for help but simply did not apply for it. Declaring that one solution isn't utopia doesn't make the other solution utopia in the perceived vacuum. All those hypotheticals are true for public options as well.

Quote:
Again, this might be an issue of simply living inside a bubble, but there are many communities out there that are simply without the power to do much of anything.

And my GOD it is galling to read this constant bootstraps sloganeering from someone whose paycheck is STOLEN from the taxpayer.

So be galled. I assure you that if there were a voucher system my income would be much higher and would be within a purely private system as well. My returns on activities outside of teaching are much higher which is why I long ago shrugged and do nothing extra in terms of duty or pay.

How many communities out there are without the power to do anything? I wouldn't say there are many. In fact the very variables that we call disadvantages often become positive traits the second we move outside of the victimization mindset. Every coin has two sides.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #140 of 2360
Quote:
Meanwhile I find the bubble that declares that there would never be a single charitable organization to help those drug-addicted children if not for the government.

Who said that?

All I'm saying is that some kids fall through, and that is the truth.

Quote:
I find it bizarre that you think such children would never receive aide from anyone.

When did I ever say that or anything like it?

Quote:
Be honest, this is nothing more than an ad-hom attempt and phrases like intellectual cowardice reflect no true desire to have dialog.

I'd love to have dialogue, but it's hard to do when people hide behind euphemisms.

Quote:
The criteria provided made it clear that aid organizations would deny them for some reason and thus the ONLY avenue of help they could seek would be government.

When did I mention aid organizations denying anyone?

Quote:
How is this any different from today?

Today we have social safety nets that help tens of thousands of people every year. Libertopia does not feature such things.

Quote:
I assure you that if there were a voucher system my income would be much higher and would be within a purely private system as well.

Private schools already exist, and the teachers in them make less money.

Quote:
How many communities out there are without the power to do anything?

How about the little satellite towns around where I went to high school in with its inordinate death rate from leukemia because of industry-poisoned water tables and lack of access to quality cancer treatment? Luckily in the late 1990s a cancer treatment facility opened 25 miles away in a town that could actually afford it and that saved a lot of lives, including my wife's cousin who was born with hemophilia and MS, a combination that killed a different cousin 10 years earlier (before the new facility 25 miles away opened) when she was 3.

These people, of course, are dirt poor and work in the dairy industry in Hopkins County, Texas. They are on Medicaid, and Medicaid is the reason that cousin is alive today.

Let the chips fall where they may.

Quote:
Every coin has two sides.

Says the man who receives stolen money. Fitting, really.

When you receive taxpayer money, it's just fine.
When a poor kid from Hopkins County receives taxpayer money, that's theft.
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post #141 of 2360
Bill Kristol was the guest of The Daily Show tonight.

Kristol: The military gets first class medical care, run by the government, because they deserve better than ordinary Americans.


http://www.thedailyshow.com/

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #142 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Bill Kristol was the guest of The Daily Show tonight.

Kristol: The military gets first class medical care, run by the government, because they deserve better than ordinary Americans.


http://www.thedailyshow.com/

In other words, we'll give you first class medical care, if you enlist in the military and you get wounded or killed, and not until then.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #143 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

In other words, we'll give you first class medical care, if you enlist in the military and you get wounded or killed, and not until then.

Or if you're a Congressman or other "important" government official.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #144 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Or if you're a Congressman or other "important" government official.

You forgot about those 1.6 million federal employees and their immediate families.

Oops.
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #145 of 2360
Whatever happened to the Lincoln legacy "of the people, by the people and for the people" ?

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #146 of 2360

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #147 of 2360
heritage.org
worldnetdaily

You're a big fan of terrible hatchet sources.
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post #148 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

heritage.org
worldnetdaily

You're a big fan of terrible hatchet sources.

Is there anything factually inaccurate about the content of the article or the charts?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #149 of 2360
There is nothing factual about any of them because they are all predictions about things that will happen 20 years from now.
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post #150 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

There is nothing factual about any of them because they are all predictions about things that will happen 20 years from now.



Please tell me why I should trust the Obama Admin's "predictions" over the CBO's.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #151 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post



Please tell me why I should trust the Obama Admin's "predictions" over the CBO's.

Because both fail miserably using actual data and hindsite.

Because none of these forcasts predicts future boom/bust cycles or changes to the tax codes.

Both of these estimates are updated at least twice in any fiscal year (FY Budget and MSR for OMB and three or more times for CBO).

Already the OMB's own estimate for gross public debt in 2009 is higher than the actual gross public debt (so far). The current trendline may track almost a trillion $$ less than their original estimate.

Been there, done that.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #152 of 2360
All of a sudden the CBO is the bad guy
post #153 of 2360
Thread Starter 
CBO is the bad guy in my view. A review of their predictions would show that they are the most accurate but still off widely with regard to actual cost. Their claims about future medicare costs were off by 900% as an example. So in this instance they may claim the higher costs and less savings than OMB and other governmental department but the reality is that all of them are truly off by huge percentages when the real numbers come in.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #154 of 2360
the GOP demands that registered Republicans will be euthanized to save money.
What a fantastic idea.
post #155 of 2360
Government is not the solution to our problem. Government is the problem.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #156 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Government is not the solution to our problem. Government is the problem.

People have absolutely nothing to do with government.
The military is not needed.
Roads are not needed.
The SOCIALIST law enforcement is not needed.
The SOCIALIST fire departments are not needed.

It's good to know we only have one single problem.
post #157 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamac View Post

People have absolutely nothing to do with government.
The military is not needed.
Roads are not needed.
The SOCIALIST law enforcement is not needed.
The SOCIALIST fire departments are not needed.

It's good to know we only have one single problem.

Umm...I thought we were talking about health care.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #158 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post



Wow, not even a quarter of the Iraq war cost.
post #159 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Umm...I thought we were talking about health care.

You were the one with idiotic Reagan quote. Even his own son things it is a stupid quote. But hey.
post #160 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamac View Post

You were the one with idiotic Reagan quote. Even his own son things it is a stupid quote. But hey.

Umm...I thought we were talking about health care.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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