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The Biggest Threat to Obama's Health Care "Reform" - Reality - Page 31

post #1201 of 2281
3/22/10 at 7:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Wrong. I haven't seen any chain emails on this subject at all and I don't watch Fox news.

Well, you saw it on a blog, then, or on the Rapture Ready forum or something.

Same diff.

Hey, do a google search for "democrats exempt themselves"!

http://www.google.com/search?client=...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

It's not true (that is, it's a lie) but hey, the right wing internets love themselves some 'democrats exempt themselves'! Have a look!
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post #1202 of 2281
3/22/10 at 7:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Well, you saw it on a blog, then, or on the Rapture Ready forum or something.

Rapture Ready forum? That's cute. It is more helpful for you to create caricatures of those you disagree with and then filter everything you see, read and hear from them through such caricatures? I mean, I'm sure it's fun and all that.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1203 of 2281
3/22/10 at 7:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

This was the Democratic party's Waterloo, not the Republicans'. They have assured themselves the loss of power at this point. Assured.

Maybe. They're certainly going to lose seats in November, whether they lose their majority or not.

But what Republicans fear is that this creates another welfare dependency that Americans will become addicted to, like Social Security and Medicare. They fear that Obama will go down in history with FDR and LBJ as further cementing Americans to the government teat, relegating Republicans to having opposed an untouchable and hugely popular program. They fear taht in 20 years they'll be alternately praising it and accusing Democrats of trying to cut it.
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post #1204 of 2281
3/22/10 at 7:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

But what Republicans fear is that this creates another welfare dependency that Americans will become addicted to, like Social Security and Medicare.

Anyone with any sense should have the exact same fear.

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post #1205 of 2281
3/22/10 at 8:34am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

Maybe. They're certainly going to lose seats in November, whether they lose their majority or not.

But what Republicans fear is that this creates another welfare dependency that Americans will become addicted to, like Social Security and Medicare. They fear that Obama will go down in history with FDR and LBJ as further cementing Americans to the government teat, relegating Republicans to having opposed an untouchable and hugely popular program. They fear taht in 20 years they'll be alternately praising it and accusing Democrats of trying to cut it.

Yes and while that makes wonderful politics, the real problem is that both those programs and on course to eat up the entire Federal Budget and likewise, consume more resources than the entire networth of the United States.

Little details like that aren't important though because the main point is that we will have a bunch of people who are dependent and an impossible political situation and that is awesome!

How does one become 150% broke?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #1206 of 2281
3/22/10 at 8:40am
Quote:
Rapture Ready forum? That's cute. It is more helpful for you to create caricatures of those you disagree with and then filter everything you see, read and hear from them through such caricatures? I mean, I'm sure it's fun and all that.

Oh, gosh, I don't know.

Some other extremely right wing forum, then. The John Birch Society forum. The Americans for Flaying Poor People Alive Blog. Americans for Turning America into Somalia Facebook group. I dont know.

You got it from the internet somehow, unless you were the person who thought it up and someone overheard you and the identical phrase spread like smallpox across every extremely Christian and Randian blog and discussion group in America.

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post #1207 of 2281
3/22/10 at 8:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

How does one become 150% broke?

I think we actually just found out how it happens.

But hey, it's all good. I'm just worrying needlessly because of my partisan views. Or something.

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post #1208 of 2281
3/22/10 at 8:45am
"As soon as health care passes, the American people will see immediate benefits. The legislation will:

*Prohibit pre-existing condition exclusions for children in all new plans;

*Provide immediate access to insurance for uninsured Americans who are uninsured because of a pre-existing condition through a temporary high-risk pool;

*Prohibit dropping people from coverage when they get sick in all individual plans;

*Lower seniors' prescription drug prices by beginning to close the donut hole;

*Offer tax credits to small businesses to purchase coverage;

*Eliminate lifetime limits and restrictive annual limits on benefits in all plans;

*Require plans to cover an enrollee's dependent children until age 26;

*Require new plans to cover preventive services and immunizations without cost-sharing;

*Ensure consumers have access to an effective internal and external appeals process to appeal new insurance plan decisions;

*Require premium rebates to enrollees from insurers with high administrative expenditures and require public disclosure of the percent of premiums applied to overhead costs."
~ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-jo..._b_501748.html

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #1209 of 2281
3/22/10 at 8:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Oh, gosh, I don't know.

Some other extremely right wing forum, then. The John Birch Society forum. The Americans for Flaying Poor People Alive Blog. Americans for Turning America into Somalia Facebook group. I dont know.

You got it from the internet somehow, unless you were the person who thought it up and someone overheard you and the identical phrase spread like smallpox across every extremely Christian and Randian blog and discussion group in America.


Caricatures are fun aren't they!

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1210 of 2281
3/22/10 at 8:47am
Quote:
David Frum, former speechwriter to President George W. Bush:

Conservatives and Republicans today suffered their most crushing legislative defeat since the 1960s.

My premiums for my company went from 18,700/year in 2007 to 29,462 in 2009. For a Republican this is OK and does not mean a "tax increase". It just means the free market is working and after all it is a write off. For people who sign checks this is theft, fraud, murder and disruptive to their business. And hurray our deductible for our employees was raised as well!!
yes I want oil genocide.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #1211 of 2281
3/22/10 at 8:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

My premiums for my company went from 18,700/year in 2007 to 29,462 in 2009. For a Republican this is OK and does not mean a "tax increase".

No, that is not a tax increase. But there will be:

Quote:
So-called "Cadillac" plans costing more than $10,200 a year for individuals or $27,500 for family coverage (not counting dental and vision plans) will be subject to a 40% tax on the portion of the cost that exceeds the limit. Though the tax would actually be paid by insurers, it's expected that it would be passed along to plan holders in the form of higher premiums. The Cadillac tax would be delayed until 2018 and apply only to the most expensive plans under the House bill.

Oh look, this new law looks like it is going to end up costing you another $800 (approximately).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

It just means the free market is working

Well the free market hasn't actually been given a chance to work in this market.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

For people who sign checks this is theft, fraud, murder

Theft? Fraud? Murder? Really?

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post #1212 of 2281
3/22/10 at 9:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Theft? Fraud? Murder? Really?

yeah really.
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post #1213 of 2281
3/22/10 at 9:06am
Hey, trumptman and MJ1970.

Here's a list of ten principle changes coming into pretty much immediate effect. Perhaps we could go through them?

Prohibit pre-existing condition exclusions for children in all new plans

Do you think this a change for the better, or not?

Provide immediate access to insurance for uninsured Americans who are uninsured because of a pre-existing condition through a temporary high-risk pool

Do you think this a change for the better, or not?

Prohibit dropping people from coverage when they get sick in all individual plans

Do you think this a change for the better, or not?

Lower seniors' prescription drug prices by beginning to close the donut hole

Do you think this a change for the better, or not?

Offer tax credits to small businesses to purchase coverage

Do you think this a change for the better, or not?

Eliminate lifetime limits and restrictive annual limits on benefits in all plans

Do you think this a change for the better, or not?

Require plans to cover an enrollee's dependent children until age 26

Do you think this a change for the better, or not?

Require new plans to cover preventive services and immunizations without cost-sharing

Do you think this a change for the better, or not?

Ensure consumers have access to an effective internal and external appeals process to appeal new insurance plan decisions

Do you think this a change for the better, or not?

Require premium rebates to enrollees from insurers with high administrative expenditures and require public disclosure of the percent of premiums applied to overhead costs.

Do you think this a change for the better, or not?
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post #1214 of 2281
3/22/10 at 9:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Yes and you add back in the removal of the Medicare reimbursement cut (I know that sounds convoluted but we are talking government here) and the plan goes back into the red. Finally it looks much worse once the gimmicks are gone.



Oh I don't think so. See those trying to put us in the POR house have had their say, now the reality aka the voters will have theirs come November. In the meantime the voters get to start paying today for benefits a minority of them (because 85%+ already have health care and those who don't are often on a temporary basis between jobs) will receive starting four years from now. For the next four years it is all pain, no gain. Plus those nice midterm elections have now been completely nationalized. No escaping this or claiming local issues should prevail now.



The better question is why did it require bribes, threats and arm twisting to secure the votes of their own party. BTW, if I recall correctly, about a dozen states are ready to sue and will move forward on those suits now. It's that "I'm so post partisan that 15% of my party, all of the opposition party and dozens of states now sue" change we all hoped for I guess.



Well the liberal media complex still has several months of calling us all racists, terrorists, and extremists to try to change our minds.

They've already started. Every article I read talked about the pre-vote anger, and how people were using racial and other slurs. Doesn't matter though. They've awakened a sleeping giant.
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post #1215 of 2281
3/22/10 at 9:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

They've already started. Every article I read talked about the pre-vote anger, and how people were using racial and other slurs. Doesn't matter though. They've awakened a sleeping giant.

You mean the spitting brigade dragons

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #1216 of 2281
3/22/10 at 9:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Hey, trumptman and MJ1970.

Here's a list of ten principle changes coming into pretty much immediate effect. Perhaps we could go through them?

Prohibit pre-existing condition exclusions for children in all new plans

Do you think this a change for the better, or not?

Provide immediate access to insurance for uninsured Americans who are uninsured because of a pre-existing condition through a temporary high-risk pool

Do you think this a change for the better, or not?

Prohibit dropping people from coverage when they get sick in all individual plans

Do you think this a change for the better, or not?

Lower seniors' prescription drug prices by beginning to close the donut hole

Do you think this a change for the better, or not?

Offer tax credits to small businesses to purchase coverage

Do you think this a change for the better, or not?

Eliminate lifetime limits and restrictive annual limits on benefits in all plans

Do you think this a change for the better, or not?

Require plans to cover an enrollee's dependent children until age 26

Do you think this a change for the better, or not?

Require new plans to cover preventive services and immunizations without cost-sharing

Do you think this a change for the better, or not?

Ensure consumers have access to an effective internal and external appeals process to appeal new insurance plan decisions

Do you think this a change for the better, or not?

Require premium rebates to enrollees from insurers with high administrative expenditures and require public disclosure of the percent of premiums applied to overhead costs.

Do you think this a change for the better, or not?

Aside from the principled position of disliking the use of force to achieve my objectives, I will have reserve judgement on whether these things are a change for the better, or not until they have actually been implemented and we can see what the total effects of them are. See I don't simply accept simplistic proclamations that X will make something better because Barack Obama and Nancy Pelosi tell me that will or wish that they will or promise that they will. In the mean time I will be trying to (as I have to this point) thing through what the total effects might be used logic, reason and historical experiences and observations. But you go ahead and keep using wishful thinking.

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post #1217 of 2281
3/22/10 at 9:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Aside from the principled position of disliking the use of force to achieve my objectives, I will have reserve judgement on whether these things are a change for the better, or not until they have actually been implemented and we can see what the total effects of them are. See I don't simply accept simplistic proclamations that X will make something better because Barack Obama and Nancy Pelosi tell me that will or wish that they will or promise that they will. In the mean time I will be trying to (as I have to this point) thing through what the total effects might be used logic, reason and historical experiences and observations. But you go ahead and keep using wishful thinking.

Even the prohibition of pre-existing condition exclusions for children in all new plans?

Even that? You can't even unequivocally support that?
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post #1218 of 2281
3/22/10 at 9:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Even the prohibition of pre-existing condition exclusions for children in all new plans?

Even that? You can't even unequivocally support that?

No, I don't.

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post #1219 of 2281
3/22/10 at 9:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

No, I don't.

OK. You categorically don't support prohibiting pre-existing condition exclusions. I see.

How about lowering seniors' prescription drug prices by beginning to close the 'donut hole'?

That's getting rid of waste and making medicine cheaper for old people.

Surely you can support that?
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post #1220 of 2281
3/22/10 at 9:40am
Thread Starter 
Why is it so hard to understand the concept of the ends don't justify the means?

I support not starving pupplies to death. I don't support cutting up small children to feed them though.

People can want health care reform without wanting the government to be Big Brother doling out and stealing goodies as it sees fit.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #1221 of 2281
3/22/10 at 10:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Yes and you add back in the removal of the Medicare reimbursement cut (I know that sounds convoluted but we are talking government here) and the plan goes back into the red. Finally it looks much worse once the gimmicks are gone.

So your going to dismiss the CBO that you sung the praises of so highly as the OP of this thread, on the word of John McCain's economic advisor because you don't like that they show that this HCR will massively cut deficit spending. That was easy. LOL!

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #1222 of 2281
3/22/10 at 10:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Why is it so hard to understand the concept of the ends don't justify the means?

I support not starving pupplies to death. I don't support cutting up small children to feed them though.

People can want health care reform without wanting the government to be Big Brother doling out and stealing goodies as it sees fit.

But the end's do justify the means to put it mildly.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #1223 of 2281
3/22/10 at 10:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

They're certainly going to lose seats in November, whether they lose their majority or not.

They will lose some but gain more. HCR reform alone will be much more popular by then. I'd bet opinion polls will show a 65% favorability rating or even more. Massachusetts HCR's are hugely popular too.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #1224 of 2281
3/22/10 at 10:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

So your going to dismiss the CBO that you sung the praises of so highly as the OP of this thread, on the word of John McCain's economic advisor because you don't like that they show that this HCR will massively cut deficit spending. That was easy. LOL!

Yes, because the claim always defied credibility.

You can't extend coverage to 30-plus million people in a nation that is aging and chronically obese and expect costs to go down. That's worse than the Trickle-Down math the Dems claim to despise.

Many of the advocates of this reform openly admit to want to move the U.S. system closer to the Canadian single-payer system. That's fine, but we pay far higher gasoline taxes, not to mention a federal 5% Value Added Tax on everything we purchase. Claiming that increased coverage will lower costs in today's environment is not credible.

As I have said before, Obama's stimulus-mania and now this health care expansion is not accidental.
The U.S., like Canada before it, is being set up for a Value Added Tax to align the country with the rest of the world economy.

Americans would never willingly vote for such a regressive, big government tax scheme, so they are being forced into bankruptcy to accept it.
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post #1225 of 2281
3/22/10 at 10:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

But the end's do justify the means to put it mildly.

All ends and all means or just the ends and means you think justify each other?

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post #1226 of 2281
3/22/10 at 10:15am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

So your going to dismiss the CBO that you sung the praises of so highly as the OP of this thread, on the word of John McCain's economic advisor because you don't like that they show that this HCR will massively cut deficit spending. That was easy. LOL!

No the link I included noted the specific objections and their ramifications. A dismissal would be something along the lines of this...

It is ridiculous to suggest that this health plan will fix anything and I'll prove it by repeating the word ridiculous three more times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

But the end's do justify the means to put it mildly.

So you do justify cutting up small children just to feed the puppies?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #1227 of 2281
3/22/10 at 10:16am
Can we stop calling this thing a reform until it has actually been proven to have reformed something?

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post #1228 of 2281
3/22/10 at 10:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

So you do justify cutting up small children just to feed the puppies?

I do. But only Hands Sandon's children and my puppies.

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post #1229 of 2281
3/22/10 at 10:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Yes, because the claim always defied credibility.

You can't extend coverage to 30-plus million people in a nation that is aging and chronically obese and expect costs to go down. That's worse than the Trickle-Down math the Dems claim to despise.

Many of the advocates of this reform openly admit to want to move the U.S. system closer to the Canadian single-payer system. That's fine, but we pay far higher gasoline taxes, not to mention a federal 5% Value Added Tax on everything we purchase. Claiming that increased coverage will lower costs in today's environment is not credible.

As I have said before, Obama's stimulus-mania and now this health care expansion is not accidental.
The U.S., like Canada before it, is being set up for a Value Added Tax to align the country with the rest of the world economy.

Americans would never willingly vote for such a regressive, big government tax scheme, so they are being forced into bankruptcy to accept it.

Errr, well....the US government already spends much more on healthcare than the Canadian government by a good chunk and businesses and individuals are often severely strained and less competitive for the share they pay too. GM remember spends $1,500 per vehicle they produce just on healthcare costs. The US system pays doctors, especially specialist doctors, much more, it pays about 30% straight to insurance companies for administration and profits etc. Obama is changing the structure of HC in the US so that's it's cheaper, when the public option becomes law especially. The closer the system gets to being single payer (I think that's still a good 15 years a way or so) the cheaper it will become and therefore your taxes conspiracy theory just doesn't hold up. I suppose you could argue that because the plans offered by the insurance companies have to be up to a higher standard than the US is used to, you could argue that that will be payed by higher taxes. But those higher taxes are being minimized not maximized as you would expect if it it were a conspiracy.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

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post #1230 of 2281
3/22/10 at 10:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

All ends and all means or just the ends and means you think justify each other?

So are you saying no one should make decisions about regulation. EXTREME! ALERT! EXTREME! ALERT!

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

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post #1231 of 2281
3/22/10 at 10:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

So are you saying no one should make decisions about regulation. EXTREME! ALERT! EXTREME! ALERT!

I'm saying that your claim that the ends justify the means is wrong, ludicrous and EXTREMEly dangerous.

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post #1232 of 2281
3/22/10 at 10:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The closer the system gets to being single payer (I think that's still a good 15 years a way or so) the cheaper it will become

When that happens we should adopt single-payer systems for other things to lower their costs too. Housing. Food. Clothing. Computers. I'm sure there are other but we can start with those.

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post #1233 of 2281
3/22/10 at 10:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

No the link I included noted the specific objections and their ramifications. A dismissal would be something along the lines of this...

It is ridiculous to suggest that this health plan will fix anything and I'll prove it by repeating the word ridiculous three more times.



So you do justify cutting up small children just to feed the puppies?

Something tells me your maybe a little biased?

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #1234 of 2281
3/22/10 at 11:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I do. But only Hands Sandon's children and my puppies.

Now that's blatant hypocrisy, undisguised by appearing to hold no moral position whatsoever other than the morality of property rights.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #1235 of 2281
3/22/10 at 11:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Now that's blatant hypocrisy, undisguised by appearing to hold no moral position whatsoever other than the morality of property rights.

What hypocrisy?

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post #1236 of 2281
3/22/10 at 11:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I'm saying that your claim that the ends justify the means is wrong, ludicrous and EXTREMEly dangerous.

Yeah, because your a Libertarian and even denying a CEO an extra buck for the sake of a child is too hard for you.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

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post #1237 of 2281
3/22/10 at 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Yeah, because your a Libertarian and even denying a CEO an extra buck for the sake of a child is too hard for you.

What makes me a "libertarian" is that I believe I don't have the right to forcibly take that dollar from anyone to give to anyone else (or for myself).

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post #1238 of 2281
3/22/10 at 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

What hypocrisy?

That the means justifies the ends. You kept your puppy well fed didn't you and look at the cosequences. Year after year of pain and misery dead children parents and friends for the sake of your paranoid utopia. Fucking bullshit that's what it is.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #1239 of 2281
3/22/10 at 11:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

That the means justifies the ends. You kept your puppy well fed didn't you and look at the cosequences. Year after year of pain and misery dead children parents and friends for the sake of your paranoid utopia. Fucking bullshit that's what it is.

So, wait, the ends don't justify the means?

I'm confused, because you said:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

But the end's do justify the means to put it mildly.


Did you mean something different?

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post #1240 of 2281
3/22/10 at 11:45am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I do. But only Hands Sandon's children and my puppies.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Something tells me your maybe a little biased?

Naw if I were biased I'd give up word definitions, start making accusations and then start cursing at people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

That the means justifies the ends. You kept your puppy well fed didn't you and look at the cosequences. Year after year of pain and misery dead children parents and friends for the sake of your paranoid utopia. Fucking bullshit that's what it is.

See above.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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