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The Biggest Threat to Obama's Health Care "Reform" - Reality - Page 32

post #1241 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Yes and while that makes wonderful politics, the real problem is that both those programs and on course to eat up the entire Federal Budget and likewise, consume more resources than the entire networth of the United States.

Little details like that aren't important though because the main point is that we will have a bunch of people who are dependent and an impossible political situation and that is awesome!

How does one become 150% broke?

It's true that Medicare is the single biggest budgetary problem we have. (Not Social Security, but that's another argument.) It's going through the roof because of a culture of overspending on medicine.

And this bill addresses it. Among other things, it creates a very powerful IMAC - Independent Medicare Advisory Commission. This group will reform payments in such a way that their recommendations will take effect unless specifically rejected by the President or Congress. They'll do things like say "Medicare isn't going to pay $10/pill for this when the generic that does the same thing costs 5¢." It's the most important entitlement reform in a generation, maybe ever.

And Republicans? They complained that this bill would cut Medicare. Where is that rolleyes smiley?
post #1242 of 2360
The funny thing about political extremists is that they dont think theyre extreme. It is absolutely sensible to starve millions of Ukranian peasants. Its a duty to ban private property. We must abolish government if we want to be truly free.

I think its good that we live in societies where its OK to advocate and even campaign for this sort of toxic, selfish and inhuman bullshit, but Ive been to Nigeria and Ive been to Chad and those places sort of suck.

So when I say Its lucky that most people grow out of this student nonsense when they graduate from university, I'm speaking from the position of actually having seen what societies are like when everyone can be as selfish as they please.
post #1243 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

The funny thing about political extremists is that they don’t think they’re extreme. It is absolutely sensible to starve millions of Ukranian peasants. It’s a duty to ban private property. We must abolish government if we want to be truly ‘free.’

I think it’s good that we live in societies where it’s OK to advocate and even campaign for this sort of toxic, selfish and inhuman bullshit, but I’ve been to Nigeria and I’ve been to Chad and those places sort of suck.

So when I say It’s lucky that most people grow out of this student nonsense when they graduate from university, I'm speaking from the position of actually having seen what societies are like when everyone can be as selfish as they please.

Interesting examples that you've chosen there. Nigeria ("Like in many other African societies, prebendalism and extremely excessive corruption continue to constitute major challenges to Nigeria, as vote rigging and other means of coercion are practised by all major parties in order to remain competitive.") and Chad ("Corruption is rife at all levels; Transparency International's Corruption Perceptions Index for 2005 named Chad the most corrupt country in the world, and it has fared only slightly better in the following years."). Both of which are textbook examples of corrupt and oppressive African governments. Both of which rank very low on indexes that rate and rank freedom (using multiple factors).

What Wikipedia has to say about Chad's government is interesting and telling: "Chad's constitution provides for a strong executive branch headed by a president who dominates the political system."

Chad ranks 159th (out of 183 countries) on the Index of Economic Freedom: http://www.heritage.org/index/Country/Chad

Nigeria is better but still in the "mostly un-free" area at 106th: http://www.heritage.org/index/Country/Nigeria

Curiously, you've missed a quiet little country in Africa called Mauritius: http://www.heritage.org/index/Country/Mauritius

Ranked 1st in the African region and 12th overall, just below the UK and rising in freedom (in fact the U.S. is going the opposite direction and may soon be ranked below Mauritius if trends continue along their current trends).

Here's a country that has systemically introduced more freedom and liberalization (though it still has a way to go) and has reaped the benefits of greater prosperity for its people:

Quote:
Since independence in 1968, Mauritius has developed from a low-income, agriculturally based economy to a middle income diversified economy with growing industrial, financial, and tourist sectors. For most of the period, annual growth has been of the order of 5% to 6%. This has been reflected in increased life expectancy, lowered infant mortality and improved infrastructure.

Quote:
With a well-developed legal and commercial infrastructure and a tradition of entrepreneurship and representative government, Mauritius is one of the developing world’s most successful democracies. economy has shown a considerable degree of resilience, and an environment already conducive to dynamic entrepreneurial activity has moved further toward economic freedom.

Though it still suffers from corruption issues, it is significantly better than Nigeria or Chad and is steadily improving.


The problem in Nigeria and Chad (among others in Africa and elsewhere) is not, as you seem to imply, a lack of government but, in fact, too much government control, corruption and oppression. Countries that have systematically reduced and limited the role of government have experienced great material benefits for all of their people (not just the rich), especially the poor. This is a matter of historical fact and record.


P.S. And let's not even talk about Somalia which is a text book example of warring factions, tribes, etc. (some funded and supported by the U.S.) trying to take control and establish yet another corrupt African government in order to control the country. These are all examples of countries with corrupt governments run amok.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1244 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

The problem in Nigeria and Chad (among others in Africa and elsewhere) is not, as you seem to imply, a lack of government but, in fact, too much government control, corruption and oppression. Countries that have systematically reduced and limited the role of government have experienced great material benefits for all of their people (not just the rich), especially the poor. This is a matter of historical fact and record.

No. You're wrong. I've been to Nigeria. Have you?

The 'government' is an inconvenience. You can ignore it. Nigeria appears to be governed by its traffic police.

Do you want to build a house? Build it. Wherever you like. Do you want tip toxic chemicals into a river? Carry right on. No one pays their taxes. If you get sick, there's no safety net.

This is what you want, right? A country with super-low interference goverment?

I love how you dismiss Somalia. THERE IS NO GOVERNMENT IN MOST PARTS OF SOMALIA.

Libertarian paradise, surely.

Incidentally. When you drive to work tomorrow, do keep off the roads and the bridges, and try not to drink any water from the tap, or eat any food manufactured in America.
post #1245 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

No. You're wrong. I've been to Nigeria. Have you?

The 'government' is an inconvenience. You can ignore it. Nigeria appears to be governed by its traffic police.

Do you want to build a house? Build it. Wherever you like. Do you want tip toxic chemicals into a river? Carry right on. No one pays their taxes. If you get sick, there's no safety net.

It is interesting that you point to a country who has a government that owns and controls a forcible monopoly on the key natural resource (oil) of a nation and is well known to have regularly repressed is people as an example of a place without government. Yes, to some extent you're right. It is a nation without a government that actually protects the rights of its people (including those people's property) but it is a government (really a gang of thugs...but then I repeat myself) big enough, strong enough and oppressive enough that it steals from its people and actively prevents them from forming the foundations of a civilized society.

But, sure, you're right, the problem in Nigeria is there's no government.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

This is what you want, right? A country with super-low interference goverment?

I love how you dismiss Somalia. THERE IS NO GOVERNMENT IN MOST PARTS OF SOMALIA.

Libertarian paradise, surely.

Incidentally. When you drive to work tomorrow, do keep off the roads and the bridges, and try not to drink any water from the tap, or eat any food manufactured in America.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1246 of 2360


Socialism BAD!!!!

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #1247 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post


Just so as you know, when you respond with "Yes dear" or it's basically tantamount to saying "I got nothing."
post #1248 of 2360
BR, the quote you included describe benefits that are paid for by everybody. They aren't entitlement programs.

The health care entitlement program just passed isn't going to be paid for by everybody, and that's a first for the US. It's "take from the rich and give to the poor". You obviously have no problem with that, but I'm thinking the backlash from this is something you will have a problem with. I don't see you as the type to be as complacent with the result of that as you are with the passage of this bill.

You really think that the folks that will carry the burden of this bill - the folks that are obviously more influential than the recipients of this entitlement program - will stop with repealing just this program? People are pissed, and payback's gunna be a bitch.

I think this is going to eventually hurt the very people it was designed to assist.
post #1249 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Just so as you know, when you respond with "Yes dear" or it's basically tantamount to saying "I got nothing."

Actually it means I don't see anything worthy of responding to. But whatever.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1250 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

I think this is going to eventually hurt the very people it was designed to assist.

As with most liberal utopian policies.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1251 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

BR, the quote you included describe benefits that are paid for by everybody.

Actually it's even a bit worse than that.

First it overstates (grossly in some cases) the government's contributory role in many of those things. Second, it ignores any government failures or corruption in any of those things. Finally, it implies that those things can and would only be achieved with government action.

I've seen this before and just laughed at the naiveté and simplistic reasoning.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1252 of 2360
The GOP chief says Healthcare plan is too expensive. Translation : If this works we might lose in the fall. That's what I think is so funny about this.

However the real irony is : http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35996497...w_york_times//

Quote:
United stand on health bill could hurt GOP
While electorate seems skeptical of legislation, some provisions are popular

When the GOP complains that's what it really amounts to.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #1253 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

The GOP chief says Healthcare plan is too expensive. Translation : If this works we might lose in the fall. That's what I think is so funny about this.

When the GOP complains that's what it really amounts to.

I think the translation is "Before this, entitlement programs were at least pretending to be fairly paid for, now there's nothing to disguise the theft involved, and the people being stolen from aren't going to stand it".
post #1254 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

I think the translation is "Before this, entitlement programs were at least pretending to be fairly paid for, now there's nothing to disguise the theft involved, and the people being stolen from aren't going to stand it".

Actually I think that has little or nothing to do with their motivation.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #1255 of 2360
I'm just happy that the Lehman Brothers accountants found jobs in the West Wing.
post #1256 of 2360
Did Obama deliver on ANY of these promises?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5t8GdxFYBU

Nope.

I need a barf bag just to watch this clip all the way through.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #1257 of 2360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Just so as you know, when you respond with "Yes dear" or it's basically tantamount to saying "I got nothing."

Actually since the replies contain nothing but snide asides, what should be addressed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

BR, the quote you included describe benefits that are paid for by everybody. They aren't entitlement programs.

The health care entitlement program just passed isn't going to be paid for by everybody, and that's a first for the US. It's "take from the rich and give to the poor". You obviously have no problem with that, but I'm thinking the backlash from this is something you will have a problem with. I don't see you as the type to be as complacent with the result of that as you are with the passage of this bill.

You really think that the folks that will carry the burden of this bill - the folks that are obviously more influential than the recipients of this entitlement program - will stop with repealing just this program? People are pissed, and payback's gunna be a bitch.

I think this is going to eventually hurt the very people it was designed to assist.

Well clearly they have fun with their strawmen. The Constitution sets up what the role of the federal government happens to be and if you don't desire to extend it past that role then anarchy for all is the only other possible choice or at least that is what is being portrayed. The whole actually follow the Constitution but, well that is just so passé.

As you note, this is about wealth transfer mostly from the abled bodies and especially the young.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Actually it means I don't see anything worthy of responding to. But whatever.

Get used to the accusations. It's what people toss out when they don't have any persuasive reasoning. It goes a bit like this. Post sarcastic or derisive comment. Watch it fail to persuade and then call you a piece of shit because you didn't laugh thus showing you were in with the cool kids. Most of us got over that in middle/high school.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

The GOP chief says Healthcare plan is too expensive. Translation : If this works we might lose in the fall. That's what I think is so funny about this.

However the real irony is : http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35996497...w_york_times//

When the GOP complains that's what it really amounts to.

It would be really amazing if this was so effective that it changed minds in the fall considering most of the benefits don't kick in for four years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

I think the translation is "Before this, entitlement programs were at least pretending to be fairly paid for, now there's nothing to disguise the theft involved, and the people being stolen from aren't going to stand it".

Well we can perhaps hope then that when the election comes if this is overturned that it will provide the political will to overturn and remove other actions the federal government ought not be involved in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Actually I think that has little or nothing to do with their motivation.

Did you "hear(d)" that from someone?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #1258 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Did Obama deliver on ANY of these promises?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5t8GdxFYBU

Nope.

I need a barf bag just to watch this clip all the way through.

You're just bitter and angry. Go cling to your guns and religion.
post #1259 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

It would be really amazing if this was so effective that it changed minds in the fall considering most of the benefits don't kick in for four years.

Probably not by fall. But I do have a concern. I believe they've set this up very shrewdly. They start collecting the money right away. They use this to reduce the current deficit (not sock that money away for future benefits). This happens for 2-4 years enabling dip shit to get re-elected by saying "See, we passed 'world class health care reform' and not only didn't it break the bank, we actually reduced (from $1 trillion to $800 billion but hey, who's really paying attention anymore.) the deficit! Those dirty little nay saying Republicans (I am the great post-partisan unifier) just wanted to scare you (which I never tried to do)." Then...the costs start kicking in...2014...a very strategically selected year I suspect. By this time most Americans (who seem to have the attention span and memory of the average gnat) have long since forgotten 2010 and are now starting to see some benefits. They've gotten used to the higher taxes (and stricter, more selective and more cautious hiring practices of companies.)

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1260 of 2360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Probably not by fall. But I do have a concern. I believe they've set this up very shrewdly. They start collecting the money right away. They use this to reduce the current deficit (not sock that money away for future benefits). This happens for 2-4 years enabling dip shit to get re-elected by saying "See, we passed 'world class health care reform' and not only didn't it break the bank, we actually reduced (from $1 trillion to $800 billion but hey, who's really paying attention anymore.) the deficit! Those dirty little nay saying Republicans (I am the great post-partisan unifier) just wanted to scare you (which I never tried to do)." Then...the costs start kicking in...2014...a very strategically selected year I suspect. By this time most Americans (who seem to have the attention span and memory of the average gnat) have long since forgotten 2010 and are now starting to see some benefits. They've gotten used to the higher taxes (and stricter, more selective and more cautious hiring practices of companies.)

You could be right but this Congress is borrowing at record levels and something tells me that they have been emboldened by this and will become even more reckless with their spending. The reality is their spending has gotten so large that even the taxes collected on this are but a drop in the bucket. The amount this could collect in taxes for the remainder of the year is huge, $100 billion or so, but the amount being spent is so massive, the debt generated this year is $1.7 TRILLION, not the total spending just deficit spending that this thing becomes a drop in the bucket comparatively.

They've run out of other people's money to spend or even to print and while this does grab more, their spending rate is so high, nothing can match it. This is supposed to raise a trillion dollar in taxes over a decade but that is in a decade of trillion dollar a year deficits and that is before this was passed and before Dems said I'll risk not being elected to spend even more.

Just to relate it to our favorite topic, just the deficit spending this year will be Apple the company over eight times over. Also there are also external factors that could finally crack. It is getting harder and harder to get the government bonds sold and the rating is very close to changing. These are from agencies that didn't rate the risk right in terms of the housing bubble and people on financial boards have been banging on sovereign debt crisis for years with it really coming to a head for the last few months. Often these things are psychological as well and when certain barriers are breached it goes badly very quickly. There are some older posts on here where I talk about the U.S. acting like Argentina or the Philippines and how certain places can get away with it, but we cannot. If you are going to be the standard bearer for the world, then you cannot engage in certain acts and when the standard bearer goes away from triple AAA, it makes you reevaluate every other rating for appropriateness as well.

That is one of the items that the lefties fail to grasp is that people don't just bet on something, they bet against it as well. Handson talked about all this wealth supposedly going moldy in walls and it is a profound misunderstanding. When people stop betting on the dollar they don't just stop. They start betting against it. That money doesn't go into a wall or mattress. It goes into Yuan, Euros, or other something else. Much like how when people stopped investing in tech stocks, they started investing in housing, etc. When someone's not rooting for your team, they've picked a new team and that means they are now rooting against your team.

It is why things trip or tip and why we seldom see nice linear outcomes.

When Jimmie the druggie cheats on his wife and shows up high, you might not invite him to the next BBQ. When it is Pastor Paul head of the megachurch, you don't just reevaluate Sunday BBQ, you reevaluate the church, the church leaders, your own faith, and much more. The U.S. is the standard bearer who is fiscally going to be caught with text messages on his cell phone and just like with Tiger Woods, it isn't going to be pretty.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #1261 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Actually it means I don't see anything worthy of responding to. But whatever.

OK. So what exactly is wrong with Somalia then? About as limited as government gets.

And I'm curious. Why are you opposed to legislation making pre-existing conditions exclusions illegal?
post #1262 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

And I'm curious. Why are you opposed to legislation making pre-existing conditions exclusions illegal?

1. I'm opposed to forcing* people to do things that I might want them to do or think they should do and this includes forcibly dictating the terms of contracts vs. allowing for voluntary contractual arrangements.

2. I believe doing this (forcibly dictating the terms of contracts vs. allowing for voluntary contractual arrangements) in general, but in the example in particular, will create negative side-effects due to the longer term moral hazard problem it creates that will outweigh the shorter term positive effects that are expected.


*This does not include using what might be called defensive force. To mind this is quite different, but I needed to clarify because I figure someone might confuse the initiation or threat of force to make someone do something with defensive force used to prevent someone from infringing on the basic rights of life, liberty and property.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1263 of 2360
Guys! LOL! "This is a big fucking deal" ~ Biden.... (turn up your volume) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_509927.html
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #1264 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Guys! LOL! "This is a big fucking deal" ~ Biden.... (turn up your volume) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_509927.html

Are we to be surprised that taxing people (especially the filthy, greedy rich) and spending trillions of other people's money all for the purposes of trying to reshape 1/6 of the American economy from the top down in a nannyesque, technocratic effort to have more control over the lives of millions of people all while increasing their dependency on the government would make a liberal Democrat anything but downright giddy with excitement?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1265 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

1. I'm opposed to forcing* people to do things that I might want them to do or think they should do and this includes forcibly dictating the terms of contracts vs. allowing for voluntary contractual arrangements.
.

Ah. 'Moral hazard.' I see.

Well then.

What about 'forcing' chemical companies to deal with their waste responsibly? Can we 'dictate' to them that they can't pour waste into rivers?

Can we 'dictate' to pharmaceutical companies that their medicines have to be safe?

These are serious questions.
post #1266 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Actually since the replies contain nothing but snide asides, what should be addressed?

For example.
post #1267 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Ah. 'Moral hazard.' I see.

Is that your way of saying you don't understand what I said?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Well then.

What about 'forcing' chemical companies to deal with their waste responsibly? Can we 'dictate' to them that they can't pour waste into rivers?

Properly understood this would be a property rights issue. Dumping waste of any kind onto someone else's property would be considered a trespass and infringement of their rights. Anyone seeking to do this would need to get permission or be prevented or sued if prevention was not avoided.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Can we 'dictate' to pharmaceutical companies that their medicines have to be safe?

I actually don't think the dictate* is really necessary. But should it be that someone sells you a product to put into your body that they know will harm you and does not do what it was intended to do this, again, would be an infringement of basic rights to your life, your body, etc.


*Implicit in your statement is that government is the only means or method by which someone is "forced" (let's say compelled, which is more correct) to do the right thing here. I disagree.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1268 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Is that your way of saying you don't understand what I said?

No. It's my way of acknowledging that I'm dealing with someone who's read a lot of Ayn Rand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Properly understood this would be a property rights issue. Dumping waste of any kind onto someone else's property would be considered a trespass and infringement of their rights. Anyone seeking to do this would need to get permission or be prevented or sued if prevention was not avoided.

So. You are in favour of governmental environmental agencies then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I actually don't think the dictate* is really necessary. But should it be that someone sells you a product to put into your body that they know will harm you and does not do what it was intended to do this, again, would be an infringement of basic rights to your life, your body, etc.

So. You are in favour of some regulatory agency preventing them from releasing untested and dangerous drugs, then?
post #1269 of 2360
Welcome to the evil communist world, America.



It's OK. We have blue jeans. And elections.

blue: Single-payer universal health care (16)
green: Public universal health care through other means (51)
grey: No universal health care or no data (Not America anymore! Hooray!)
post #1270 of 2360
The caption on that is a bit hard to read... could you Add the caption to your post's text?
Green is...
Blue is...

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #1271 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

No. It's my way of acknowledging that I'm dealing with someone who's read a lot of Ayn Rand.



So. You are in favour of governmental environmental agencies then?



So. You are in favour of some regulatory agency preventing them from releasing untested and dangerous drugs, then?

You are really quite odd. First you deal in caricatures, fantasies if you will, of who you think I am and what I think and believe. Then you draw rather bizarre conclusions that make it appear as if you've almost completely ignored (or at least failed to take any time to understand) what I've written and instead simply arrived at some conclusion that fits what you want me to think and say. It appears I'm not really dealing with a serious person interested in serious discussion and understanding. I think I'll waste my time in other more enjoyable ways TYVM.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1272 of 2360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

You are really quite odd. First you deal in caricatures, fantasies if you will, of who you think I am and what I think and believe. Then you draw rather bizarre conclusions that make it appear as if you've almost completely ignored (or at least failed to take any time to understand) what I've written and instead simply arrived at some conclusion that fits what you want me to think and say. It appears I'm not really dealing with a serious person interested in serious discussion and understanding. I think I'll waste my time in other more enjoyable ways TYVM.

Got that feeling to have you? Try the ignore function. It works wonders.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #1273 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

The caption on that is a bit hard to read... could you Add the caption to your post's text?
Green is...
Blue is...

Yes please.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #1274 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

You are really quite odd. First you deal in caricatures, fantasies if you will, of who you think I am and what I think and believe. Then you draw rather bizarre conclusions that make it appear as if you've almost completely ignored (or at least failed to take any time to understand) what I've written and instead simply arrived at some conclusion that fits what you want me to think and say. It appears I'm not really dealing with a serious person interested in serious discussion and understanding. I think I'll waste my time in other more enjoyable ways TYVM.

Ah. So you have not read Ayn Rand. I apologise.

I think you would like her books. She had a lot to say about 'moral hazard'. Many people who read her books often speak about 'moral hazard'. But I apologise for my appalling caricature. Clearly you have never read her and my terrible caricature is without any foundation in reality.

Actually, it is good you have not read her, because only a total fucking simpleton bases their political philosophy on the work of thar god-awful hack and priestess of selfishness. But that is not you, and I apologise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Got that feeling to have you? Try the ignore function. It works wonders.

That's a bit mean.

But anyway, MJ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Then you draw rather bizarre conclusions that make it appear as if you've almost completely ignored (or at least failed to take any time to understand) what I've written and instead simply arrived at some conclusion that fits what you want me to think and say.

I'm sorry that this is the first time you've encountered a rhetorical trope like the one I used. It has been used in debates for many centuries. I was serious about debating this issue with you, and I was even arguing with respect, aside from my dig about Ayn Rand, which was in response from some snide stuff from you.

Whatever. You don't want to state your position. I'm not surprised, but hey.
post #1275 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Yes please.

Done.
post #1276 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

The caption on that is a bit hard to read... could you Add the caption to your post's text?
Green is...
Blue is...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._World_Map.svg

You got it in already!

I'll add this map. Notice the two red countries, Iraq and Afghanistan with US funded universal healthcare coverage provided by US war funding. What's the US trying to do turn them into Commies or something! A number of countries are also trying to have univeral healthcare.

New Map- http://img.freebase.com/api/trans/ra...en_id/12550149
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #1277 of 2360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Ah. So you have not read Ayn Rand. I apologise.

I think you would like her books. She had a lot to say about 'moral hazard'. Many people who read her books often speak about 'moral hazard'. But I apologise for my appalling caricature. Clearly you have never read her and my terrible caricature is without any foundation in reality.

Actually, it is good you have not read her, because only a total fucking simpleton bases their political philosophy on the work of thar god-awful hack and priestess of selfishness. But that is not you, and I apologise.

Lots of people have plenty to say about moral hazard and adverse selection. They aren't concepts associated exclusively with Ayn Rand. They are economic terms. Ranting that anyone who uses it is Randian is like complaining that people who speak in English are Randian because dammit, that is the language in which she wrote her books as well!

The terms you are speaking about are Economics 101.


Quote:
That's a bit mean.

But anyway, MJ..

Speaking to yourself now? Isn't that a sign of dementia?

Quote:
I'm sorry that this is the first time you've encountered a rhetorical trope like the one I used. It has been used in debates for many centuries. I was serious about debating this issue with you, and I was even arguing with respect, aside from my dig about Ayn Rand, which was in response from some snide stuff from you.

He is dead on about the caricaturing. If that qualifies as serious debate then the only that you can debate are caricatures.

Quote:
Whatever. You don't want to state your position. I'm not surprised, but hey.

Why state it? You'll only caricature, strawman it and then rant and accuse based off the caricature and strawman. It's what you are doing and will do. There's need to give more fuel to the fire. It is the pure definition of trolling which is why after multiple times being banned, you're back here pouring the old wine into a new bottle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._World_Map.svg

You got it in already!

I'll add this map. Notice the two red countries, Iraq and Afghanistan with US funded universal healthcare coverage provided by US war funding. What's the US trying to do turn them into Commies or something! A number of countries are also trying to have univeral healthcare.

New Map- http://img.freebase.com/api/trans/ra...en_id/12550149

You think in Iran and Afghanistan they have MRI machines in every mid sized city or toss stents at whoever is having heart issues? Same term, different care by far. How many hip and knee replacements do you think they are doing for quality of life issues over there?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #1278 of 2360
If only we still had Cheney and Bush in office we could have had single payer already. Oh how the dems thwarted that evil commie plan here-

"Article 31 of the Iraqi Constitution, drafted by your right-wing Bushies in 2005 and ratified by the Iraqi people, includes state-guaranteed (single payer) healthcare for life for every Iraqi citizen.

Article 31 reads:

"First: Every citizen has the right to health care. The State shall maintain public health and provide the means of prevention and treatment by building different types of hospitals and health institutions.

Second: Individuals and entities have the right to build hospitals, clinics,or private health care centers under the supervision of the State, and this shall be regulated by law."
~ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-d..._b_280528.html
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
post #1279 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Lots of people have plenty to say about moral hazard and adverse selection. They aren't concepts associated exclusively with Ayn Rand. They are economic terms. Ranting that anyone who uses it is Randian is like complaining that people who speak in English are Randian because dammit, that is the language in which she wrote her books as well!

The terms you are speaking about are Economics 101.

Why, trumptman, thank you for answering so thoroughly on behalf of MJ1970.

I think you misread my post in perhaps the most hilariously catastrophic way I've seen in quite some time, but I'll just answer this bit while I wait for MJ1970 (or 'MJ', as I abbreviated his name, by dropping the numbers and leaving the letters- cunning, huh?).

Did I say that 'moral hazard' was a term exclusively associated with Ayn Rand?

Let me just check a minute.

...No, I didn't.

But your rant was very funny, if completely superfluous and missing the point, completely, in a humiliating sort of way.

Now go and re-read my post.

Oh yeah, and goodnight one and all.

Oh wait, trumptman. You love opinion polls, don't you?

http://www.gallup.com/poll/113980/Ga...-Approval.aspx

Yep. By golly, your nation loves Barack Obama, especially now he's passed this popular health care legislation. http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing...avorable_N.htm

post #1280 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


You think in Iran and Afghanistan they have MRI machines in every mid sized city or toss stents at whoever is having heart issues? Same term, different care by far. How many hip and knee replacements do you think they are doing for quality of life issues over there?

Religious conservatives do not care about their neighbors as evidenced by the recent health care debate in this country.

OBAMA WON.
CLOSE THIS THREAD.
(UN)REALITY HAS LOST.

Health care reform is reality.
yes I want oil genocide.
Reply
yes I want oil genocide.
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