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The Biggest Threat to Obama's Health Care "Reform" - Reality - Page 37

post #1441 of 2277
4/7/10 at 11:23am
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #1442 of 2277
4/7/10 at 11:26am
BR, it would be fair to note that there were some of us who were (and are) opposed to all of the things mentioned there.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1443 of 2277
4/7/10 at 11:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Since health care is not a right, nor is it expressly enumerated in the Constitution as the responsibility of the federal government, it falls upon the individual states, private industry and charity to render aid per the 10th Amendment.

Forcing states and businesses to be charitable is a lot better than forcing people to have health insurance.
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post #1444 of 2277
4/7/10 at 12:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Forcing states and businesses to be charitable is a lot better than forcing people to have health insurance.

FYI If it has to be forced it ain't charity anymore.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1445 of 2277
4/7/10 at 12:21pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

BR, it would be fair to note that there were some of us who were (and are) opposed to all of the things mentioned there.

It would be fair then to be able to simply look at that comic and know that it doesn't apply to you. No disclaimer necessary.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #1446 of 2277
4/7/10 at 12:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Which is why the vast majority of Republicans and Tea Partiers support national anti-abortion and anti-same sex marriage legislation. Right.

Abortion laws are states issues.
B. Clinton signed the Defense of Marriage Act. Is he a Republican or Tea Partier?
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post #1447 of 2277
4/7/10 at 1:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

FYI If it has to be forced it ain't charity anymore.

FYI: You are either "forcing" entities to be charitable or "forcing" them to let people who need medical attention die in the street.

Both options are far better than "forcing" people to have health insurance, right?
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post #1448 of 2277
4/7/10 at 1:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

FYI: You are either "forcing" entities to be charitable or "forcing" them to let people who need medical attention die in the street.

Both options are far better than "forcing" people to have health insurance, right?

I know it is difficult for liberals to believe, but many charities help people out of kindness and believe it is their responsibility, not because they are forced to.

No one is dying in the street, save for addicts and alcoholics.
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post #1449 of 2277
4/7/10 at 1:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

FYI: You are either "forcing" entities to be charitable or "forcing" them to let people who need medical attention die in the street.

You are wrong sir. Sheesh.

This is one of those ludicrous arguments from the anti-freedom people in which you are always "forcing" someone to do something, even "forcing" them to be free from "force." It is like some bizarre semantic pretzel logic that only an anti-freedom statist can truly understand and appreciate. In that world black is white, up is down, right is wrong, freedom is slavery and good intentions equal good outcomes. Weird.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1450 of 2277
4/7/10 at 1:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

No one is dying in the street, save for addicts and alcoholics.

Liberals seem to be fond of hyperbole (I assume because the basics of their case is so strong that it needs it). So words like murder, theft, exploitation and slavery are commonly used to describe things, events and circumstances that aren't any of those things (by their traditional and well understood meanings.) This will help people to realize how righteous their cause is as they assemble the framework for tyranny and oppression.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1451 of 2277
4/7/10 at 4:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

I know it is difficult for liberals to believe, but many charities help people out of kindness and believe it is their responsibility, not because they are forced to.

No one is dying in the street, save for addicts and alcoholics.

http://www.citymayors.com/society/homeless_usa2.html

http://www.nhchc.org/PrematureMortalityFinal.pdf

You are what you are but not human.
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post #1452 of 2277
4/7/10 at 4:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

http://www.citymayors.com/society/homeless_usa2.html

http://www.nhchc.org/PrematureMortalityFinal.pdf

You are what you are but not human.

stevegmu, you'll observe here a common liberal argumentation technique. It might be called "moving the goal line" or could be characterized as a red herring. In this case we switch the argument from "people dying in the streets" due to a faulty, evil, greed-based health care system that doesn't have enough government control to people dying in the streets due to the circumstances centered around their homelessness which may have multiple, variable causes while implying something like "see, I told you people were dying in the streets!" We also note the governmental oppression of the homeless is conveniently ignored while simultaneously calling for more government actions intended to make everyone's life just a wee bit better. What is especially interesting to note in the first link is how the government selectively choses to enforce laws against those less desirable as well as denies those who are less desirable full access to taxpayer-funded facilities (parks and other public places.) But it is quite doubtful that anything like that would ever happen within the government health care framework.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1453 of 2277
4/7/10 at 5:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

Is there no Medicare, Medicaid, city, county, regional clinics? Everyone in the US has access to healthcare. Whether they take advantage of what is available is up to them. Being covered under a health insurance policy is certainly not a right, as there are already tax-payer funded public alternatives.

Yes there is but it's already been established that thiose programs aren't cutting it. I can tell you have no idea how much keeping you healthy costs when you get older. And it's not because of drug use or obesity we're talking about here ( like trumpy would have you believe ). It's about our population living longer than they used to. Some will live a long life with little care but some because of their genetic background will need more.

As with trumpy I just love it when someone in their 30'sd or 40's says " It'll never happen to me ". They have no clue.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #1454 of 2277
4/7/10 at 5:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Legislating morality is not only dangerous, it is unconstitutional.

So let em' eat cake. Gotcha! The next time the rightwingers here say something about doing the right thing I'll remember this post.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #1455 of 2277
4/7/10 at 5:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Yes there is but it's already been established that thiose programs aren't cutting it. I can tell you have no idea how much keeping you healthy costs when you get older. And it's not because of drug use or obesity we're talking about here ( like trumpy would have you believe ). It's about our population living longer than they used to. Some will live a long life with little care but some because of their genetic background will need more.

As with trumpy I just love it when someone in their 30'sd or 40's says " It'll never happen to me ". They have no clue.

Last I checked Medicare and Medicaid are the model of government efficiency. Just expand those wonderful government programs; don't force my insurance company to cover them, thus raising my rates.
Medicare covers retirees.
I save money for a rainy day. I shouldn't have to spend that money for others who do not.
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post #1456 of 2277
4/7/10 at 5:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

So let em' eat cake. Gotcha! The next time the rightwingers here say something about doing the right thing I'll remember this post.

Conservatives give considerably more to charity than do liberals. We believe in helping each other, rather than relying on the government.
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post #1457 of 2277
4/7/10 at 5:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

Last I checked Medicare and Medicaid are the model of government efficiency. Just expand those wonderful government programs; don't force my insurance company to cover them, thus raising my rates.
Medicare covers retirees.
I save money for a rainy day. I shouldn't have to spend that money for others who do not.

Once again I can tell you're young. You have no clue. Please show me how these programs have proved to take care of the problems people face with heathcare now days. Save all you want but when you need an procedure that costs $100.000 and your insurance doesn't cover it or won't accept you because it's a preexisting condition what do you do?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #1458 of 2277
4/7/10 at 5:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

Conservatives give considerably more to charity than do liberals. We believe in helping each other, rather than relying on the government.

So we can take up a charity for everyone needing healthcare. Uh huh.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #1459 of 2277
4/7/10 at 5:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Once again I can tell you're young. You have no clue. Please show me how these programs have proved to take care of the problems people face with heathcare now days. Save all you want but when you need an procedure that costs $100.000 and your insurance doesn't cover it or won't accept you because it's a preexisting condition what do you do?


I have stated many times the 'uninsurable' should be covered under Medicaid.
With tort reform, said procedure would not cost $100000.
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post #1460 of 2277
4/7/10 at 5:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

So we can take up a charity for everyone needing healthcare. Uh huh.

Many churches sponsor free clinics.
I actually don't know anyone who does not have health insurance. People I know are employed.
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post #1461 of 2277
4/7/10 at 6:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

I have stated many times the 'uninsurable' should be covered under Medicaid.
With tort reform, said procedure would not cost $100000.

No clue. And by the way it's not just the elderly that have a high price to pay.

Quote:
should be covered under Medicaid.

But the way things were under the old plan did they? That's what reform is all about. One of my daughters was hit by a car in 2006. She's needed 3 procerdures costing that much. Insurance only paid for part. If it hadn't been for my wife's inheritance ( which is running out fast now ) she would have had bad vestibular problems for the rest of her life. Under the old plan any future insurance company wouldn't have taken her because it was a preexisting condition. As it is she's doing better now but will have problems all of her life. It would have been much worse if she hadn't had treatment.

You have no clue.
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post #1462 of 2277
4/7/10 at 6:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

So we can take up a charity for everyone needing healthcare. Uh huh.

There's a subtle assumption that is hiding behind this statement. It is common among collectivists and what I'd call "centralists." It is the idea that we (all of us together) must take up a charity collection for everyone and that this function must be done collectively and centrally. These are both false premises. In fact, in most cases it would be better for these activities to be decentralized and happening closer to the individuals in need. So local churches, non-profits, clinics, community groups, cooperatives, families and even doctors and hospitals providing "pro bono" care as needed and as they see fit.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1463 of 2277
4/7/10 at 6:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

There's a subtle assumption that is hiding behind this statement. It is common among collectivists and what I'd call "centralists." It is the idea that we (all of us together) must take up a charity collection for everyone and that this function must be done collectively and centrally. These are both false premises. In fact, in most cases it would be better for these activities to be decentralized and happening closer to the individuals in need. So local churches, non-profits, clinics, community groups, cooperatives, families and even doctors and hospitals providing "pro bono" care as needed and as they see fit.

I don't see any of this being a realistic solution to the problems facing modern healthcare.
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post #1464 of 2277
4/7/10 at 6:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Good luck with that.

History has plenty of examples where that's worked. Sorry your faith in humankind is so low.

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post #1465 of 2277
4/7/10 at 6:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

No clue. And by the way it's not just the elderly that have a high price to pay.



But the way things were under the old plan did they? That's what reform is all about. One of my daughters was hit by a car in 2006. She's needed 3 procerdures costing that much. Insurance only paid for part. If it hadn't been for my wife's inheritance ( which is running out fast now ) she would have had bad vestibular problems for the rest of her life. Under the old plan any future insurance company wouldn't have taken her because it was a preexisting condition. As it is she's doing better now but will have problems all of her life. It would have been much worse if she hadn't had treatment.

You have no clue.

I have catastrophic coverage, which covers everything over $10000. Perhaps you should have chosen a little more wisely.
Under my plan for reform, she would qualify as an 'uninsurable'; thus be eligible for Medicaid. If you believe in health care for all, leave insurance companies out of it and focus on public regional clinics and hospitals.
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post #1466 of 2277
4/7/10 at 6:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

History has plenty of examples where that's worked. Sorry your faith in humankind is so low.


Yes this would work if we were in a colonial township.
Mankind has never had so many people with new procedures that cost so much and people who have lived so long.
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post #1467 of 2277
4/7/10 at 6:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Yes this would work if we were in a colonial township.
Mankind has never had so many people with new procedures that cost so much and people who have lived so long.

I'm sorry your faith in humankind is so low.

P.S. The number of people doesn't affect what I'm saying, nor does their longevity. Furthermore, the high cost of healthcare is function of too government intervention into that market. Get rid of that, increase competition, etc. and you'll see prices come down.

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post #1468 of 2277
4/7/10 at 8:48pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I'm sorry your faith in humankind is so low.

Please tell me what humankind in America has done with no or partial regulation. The vast majority of corporations and those who run them have done nothing to deserve our trust. The corruption of the Catholic church shows they do not deserve our trust. I can go on and on. You may counter that the government hasn't earned our trust either. However, I will say that at least with government aided healthcare for everyone, sick people won't be left out on the streets untreated.

Health insurance companies and charities have already been given their shot. They blew it.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #1469 of 2277
4/7/10 at 8:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Please tell me what humankind in America has done with no or partial regulation. The vast majority of corporations and those who run them have done nothing to deserve our trust. The corruption of the Catholic church shows they do not deserve our trust. I can go on and on. You may counter that the government hasn't earned our trust either. However, I will say that at least with government aided healthcare for everyone, sick people won't be left out on the streets untreated.

Health insurance companies and charities have already been given their shot. They blew it.

Let me see if I understand you correctly. As a general statement, humankind is untrustworthy? Is that a fair summary? If not, can you clarify for me? Are there only certain people? Certain groups? Thanks.

P.S. You seem to ignore the deleterious effects of government in the healthcare arena and attribute all positive results to its involvement while negative results are the result of private actors. Please correct me if I am wrong. Thanks.

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post #1470 of 2277
4/7/10 at 9:10pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Health Insurance companies left to their own devices have done everything in their power to jack up the prices while minimizing the coverage to continually post record profits to their shareholders. Charities have not filled the gap for the uninsured. How much time are we supposed to give the private sector before we say "uhh, you greedy fucking bastards enough is enough"?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #1471 of 2277
4/7/10 at 10:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Liberals seem to be fond of hyperbole (I assume because the basics of their case is so strong that it needs it). So words like murder, theft, exploitation and slavery are commonly used to describe things, events and circumstances that aren't any of those things (by their traditional and well understood meanings.) This will help people to realize how righteous their cause is as they assemble the framework for tyranny and oppression.

Has anyone noticed the astonishingly high number of times certain members here write about "liberals"?

Liberals are liars, liberals are fond of hyperbole, liberals are arrogant, liberals are condescending, liberals have "arguing techniques", liberals are "assembling the framework for tyranny and oppression."

But that's beyond the pale, now I think about it.

MJ1970, you're demonising "liberals" using the kind of language that leads to violence, as we've seen, while saying things like

Quote:
This will help people to realize how righteous their cause is as they assemble the framework for tyranny and oppression.

Seriously. You think that "liberals" are really in some sort of fucking club, and desire to build a framework for tyranny and oppression? They can't just be patriotic Americans who see things a little differently to you? They can't just be good people who you think are wrong? OK, stupid and wrong?

You write things like this and you're contributing to the atmosphere that saw those death threats and violence last week.

YOU. You are doing your bit to contribute to it. You should be fucking ashamed of yourself.
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post #1472 of 2277
4/8/10 at 5:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Health Insurance companies left to their own devices have done everything in their power to jack up the prices while minimizing the coverage to continually post record profits to their shareholders. Charities have not filled the gap for the uninsured. How much time are we supposed to give the private sector before we say "uhh, you greedy fucking bastards enough is enough"?

You didn't answer my questions.

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post #1473 of 2277
4/8/10 at 5:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Has anyone noticed the astonishingly high number of times certain members here write about "liberals"?

Liberals are liars, liberals are fond of hyperbole, liberals are arrogant, liberals are condescending, liberals have "arguing techniques", liberals are "assembling the framework for tyranny and oppression."

But that's beyond the pale, now I think about it.

I'm sorry if the observation and identification of certain patterns offends you in some way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

MJ1970, you're demonising "liberals" using the kind of language that leads to violence, as we've seen, while saying things like




Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Seriously. You think that "liberals" are really in some sort of fucking club, and desire to build a framework for tyranny and oppression?

No.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

They can't just be patriotic Americans who see things a little differently to you? They can't just be good people who you think are wrong? OK, stupid and wrong?

Sure they can.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

You write things like this and you're contributing to the atmosphere that saw those death threats and violence last week.

YOU. You are doing your bit to contribute to it. You should be fucking ashamed of yourself.

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post #1474 of 2277
4/8/10 at 7:14am
This thread seemed the most appropriate place to post this because, undoubtedly, there will be an intersect between the nutrition nanny-ism and the health care policies of the federal government:

Quote:
This week, I sat down in an editorial board meeting with Kevin Concannon, USDA Under Secretary for Food, Nutrition and Consumer Services, a friendly and well-spoken authoritarian who effortlessly dismissed the idea of local parental and school control over kids. The problem is just too big, he explained.

Concannon did, however, speak enthusiastically about one day banning commercials that the administration found where simply inappropriate for kids to be watching like cereal ads. Too flashy. Too much sugar.

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post #1475 of 2277
4/8/10 at 7:30am
MJ1970, when you say that liberals use tactics that

Quote:
will help people to realize how righteous their cause is as they assemble the framework for tyranny and oppression."

do you, or you do you not, MEAN that you believe that liberals want to assemble the framework for tyranny and oppression?
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post #1476 of 2277
4/8/10 at 7:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

MJ1970, when you say that liberals use tactics that



do you, or you do you not, MEAN that you believe that liberals want to assemble the framework for tyranny and oppression?

No, I do not believe that most (I suppose some do) liberals (or conservatives) want (or desire to use the word from your previous post) to assemble the framework for tyranny and oppression. I actually believe most have some very good intentions.

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post #1477 of 2277
4/8/10 at 7:50am
"Doctors: A tough job just got tougher"

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post #1478 of 2277
4/8/10 at 8:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

"Doctors: A tough job just got tougher"

Quote:
The Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) produced an article highlighting these medical malpractice lawsuit statistics, with regard to patient deaths:

106,000 patients die each year from the negative effects of medication
80,000 patients die each year due to complications from infections incurred in hospitals
20,000 deaths per year occur from other hospital errors
12,000 people die every year as a result of unnecessary surgery
7,000 medical malpractice deaths per year are attributed to medication errors in hospitals
This totals up to 225,000 deaths each year, due to medical negligence of some nature. And that number is ever growing.

I grew up in a different time. My doctor made house calls. Somehow he was able to afford a nice home and a beautiful Jaguar and that in the socialist country I am from. My dentist lives in a 6000 sqft home with a massive pool. The parking lot of our local hospital is full of Porsche's and Mercedes (Yeah docs are not so much into US cars). While I believe this is OK since I was to dumm to get through the first 2 years of Med school and switched to Math, I am confused by the whine about malpractice insurance cost. Every business owner is faced with rising insurance cost. If you just have a small amount of brains you find an insurance company which offers a package and you will get a better deal. For some reason the free market is no good here?

Call your congressman and tell him to fight for tort reform, if you hate what the free market has done to prices in that industry.

Everybody already called about health reform and it was passed. It's that simple.
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post #1479 of 2277
4/8/10 at 9:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

For some reason the free market is no good here?

Call your congressman and tell him to fight for tort reform, if you hate what the free market has done to prices in that industry.

I'd be careful in assuming the free market is what's at play here.

It's incorrectly assumed by many that the health care and health insurance sectors are examples of free market failures. I mean in spending alone all levels of government in the U.S. account for half the money spent in health care. No one can reasonably call that a free market. That's not even counting the thousands of rules, regulations and laws that government these sectors. Health care and health insurance are not and have not been free markets for a very long time. Blaming the failures in these markets on freedom as opposed to government actions is symptomatic of a superficial (or dishonest) appraisal of the situation.

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post #1480 of 2277
4/8/10 at 10:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I'd be careful in assuming the free market is what's at play here.

It's incorrectly assumed by many that the health care and health insurance sectors are examples of free market failures. I mean in spending alone all levels of government in the U.S. account for half the money spent in health care. No one can reasonably call that a free market. That's not even counting the thousands of rules, regulations and laws that government these sectors. Health care and health insurance are not and have not been free markets for a very long time. Blaming the failures in these markets on freedom as opposed to government actions is symptomatic of a superficial (or dishonest) appraisal of the situation.

What failures?
What was I blaming on anyone in my post?
You are having a conversation with yourself in your head. You add your own words to other people's posts and respond to them. You project your own opinions onto others, this makes for a nice discussion with yourself.

Freedom ≠ Free Market

By your definition "free market" does not exist.
i.e
cars are regulated: You can't sell cars without breaks, in a free market you could, at least once.

you can't sell food that kills people, in a free market you could, at least once.

However you are free to make better cars than the next company and better food as long as you follow government regulations.
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AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › The Biggest Threat to Obama's Health Care "Reform" - Reality