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The Biggest Threat to Obama's Health Care "Reform" - Reality - Page 5

post #161 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamac View Post

You were the one with idiotic Reagan quote. Even his own son things it is a stupid quote. But hey.

So what?
post #162 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamac View Post

People have absolutely nothing to do with government.




Quote:
Originally Posted by jamac View Post

The military is not needed.
Roads are not needed.
The SOCIALIST law enforcement is not needed.
The SOCIALIST fire departments are not needed.

It's always interesting to me that whenever anyone argues that maybe we could do with a little less government or maybe they oppose a massive new government program that promises to be more costly, less efficient, lower quality not to mention intrude into the most personal aspects of people's lives (e.g., healthcare) or opposes massive forcible re-distributions of private property that the response is "Oh you don't want police! Oh you don't want roads! Oh you don't want firemen! Oh you don't want courts!"

Geez.

post #163 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post






It's always interesting to me that whenever anyone argues that maybe we could do with a little less government or maybe they oppose a massive new government program that promises to be more costly, less efficient, lower quality not to mention intrude into the most personal aspects of people's lives (e.g., healthcare) or opposes massive forcible re-distributions of private property that the response is "Oh you don't want police! Oh you don't want roads! Oh you don't want firemen! Oh you don't want courts!"

Geez.


Excellent! We've established that not everything that government does is "the problem".

So, we can agree that "government is the problem" does not apply to everything the government does - correct? And maybe even agree that Reagan was painting with way too broad a brush in the quote?

So now, I guess, we just need to establish how we determine which government programs are "good", and which ones are "the problem"!
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post #164 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by FormerLurker View Post

Excellent! We've established that not everything that government does is "the problem".

So, we can agree that "government is the problem" does not apply to everything the government does - correct? And maybe even agree that Reagan was painting with way too broad a brush in the quote?

So now, I guess, we just need to establish how we determine which government programs are "good", and which ones are "the problem"!

Actually, immediately preceding that quote, Reagan qualified it with "in this present crisis".

So putting the quote in its proper context does help.

I was referring specifically to this topic (health care) in referencing that quote.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #165 of 2360

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #166 of 2360
Here is some Reality. I have 2 sisters in Austria a country with socialized health care. In order to receive benefits they MUST spend 2 weeks at an Alpine spa once a year. This "jail time" comes with a nutrition course, training programs, massages, and more. However you have to pay for your own transportation or use the vouchers to get there by bus and train. The local businesses like this as well. My older sister has MS and needs very expensive transfusions every 2 month (no cost to her) as well as her daily meds, she also got an electric wheelchair and an ambulance picks her up to get to treatments.

There is no wait time on anything other than liver and heart transplants. You do have to call for an appointment though. What a burden. Fuck.
post #167 of 2360
Thread Starter 
I've heard they also sharpen up their Austrian language skills there. At least that is what Obama told me.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #168 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I've heard they also sharpen up their Austrian language skills there. At least that is what Obama told me.

Funny, there is no such thing as an Austrian language.
post #169 of 2360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamac View Post

Funny, there is no such thing as an Austrian language.


Are you calling Obama a liar?


Don't worry though because people only question Obama because they are racist or xenophobic.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #170 of 2360
These liars
post #171 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


Are you calling Obama a liar?


Don't worry though because people only question Obama because they are racist or xenophobic.

Yes, he is also a stupid American.
post #172 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


Are you calling Obama a liar?


Don't worry though because people only question Obama because they are racist or xenophobic.

I mean totally XD

Its like that Obamas been in power for seven months and made TWO OR THREE REALLY BIG GAFFS

It's JUST LIKE GW ALLOVER AGAIN HAHAHAHAHAHahahah lol lol XD
post #173 of 2360
GW'S position is secure, now that Sara has left public office.

Oh, wasn't Jamac discussing the benefit of a national health system?

That's what I thought.

I have relatives who live in Evil Socialist Countries. They don't have to worry about health care and are free to focus on their lives and getting things done, something they have done more than many Americans I know. Free. Freedom. Sound familiar?

With all the talk off Judeo-Christian values and family values from the GOP, I'm surprised they don't want to help everybody. Just talk, I guess.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #174 of 2360
With personal liberties come personal responsibilities.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #175 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

With personal liberties come personal responsibilities.

My poor Austrian relatives also have to have 6 weeks paid vacation/year. They are really getting the short end.
No freedom there.
No liberty.

So if you are not responsible you have no liberty?
You mean if the government goes to war for personal "must revenge my idiot daddy" reasons does this mean the gov has forfeited liberty?
post #176 of 2360
In some of these Evil Socialist States, a woman can get a year off from work to have a child and the father can get several weeks. Paid, of course.

Just a little, simple research will show the US is lagging far, far behind. Check out countries like Sweden:
"Sweden is one country which provides generous parental leave: all working parents are entitled to 16 months paid leave per child, the cost being shared between employer and State."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave#Europe

The zeros listed under the US really stand out.

USA Today from 2005
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/...ty-leave_x.htm

Life expectancy is also interesting: the US ranks 45th:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ife_expectancy

But they are Evil Countries™ and not up to the standards of the Party of Family Values™.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #177 of 2360
Scare tactics because they have nothing else:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32247482/ns/politics/

Sick.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #178 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

In some of these Evil Socialist States, a woman can get a year off from work to have a child and the father can get several weeks. Paid, of course.

The woman gets paid during this year off? Full salary? Full benefits? How many weeks is several for the man? Is that full pay and benefits as well? Who pays for this?
post #179 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

With personal liberties come personal responsibilities.

What personal liberties do Americans have that the Swedish, say, do not?

Gay marriage and civil partnerships are everywhere in Europe. Passport restrictions are almost non-existent between nations on continental Europe. Speed limits are faster, drug laws are more relaxed. You can buy alcohol legally at between 16 and 18. So you can't mean that sort of thing. So what do you mean?

Perhaps you should update your notions of 'liberty' beyond the 1800s, because Europe is kicking America's ass in terms of liberty, it seems to me.

And if American health care is the best in the world, then why do Americans have the 45th best life expectancy in the world?
post #180 of 2360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

What personal liberties do Americans have that the Swedish, say, do not?

Why don't you tell us since you are the one asserting it.

Quote:
Gay marriage and civil partnerships are everywhere in Europe. Passport restrictions are almost non-existent between nations on continental Europe. Speed limits are faster, drug laws are more relaxed. You can buy alcohol legally at between 16 and 18. So you can't mean that sort of thing. So what do you mean?

What if I wanted to protect my home with a gun? What if I didn't want government run CCTV cameras all over my street? What if I don't need a passport because we aren't talking about countries smaller than some major American cities and instead are talking about a country of over 300 million where I can travel freely? What if I don't tie my liberties up in what substances I can use to avoid reality and instead tie it up into who I can hire for my business or if I can even be allowed to start a business? Do I care if I can light up a joint if I'm going to be hauled off to battle the government over lack of free speech or worse still deal with hate speech which enforces political correctness?


Quote:
Perhaps you should update your notions of 'liberty' beyond the 1800s, because Europe is kicking America's ass in terms of liberty, it seems to me.

Perhaps our notion of personal freedom isn't being able to get wasted on the weekend to forget the week.

Quote:
And if American health care is the best in the world, then why do Americans have the 45th best life expectancy in the world?

Prove that life expectancy, especially when comparing small homogeneous populations to large heterogeneous populations is the best measure of health care efficiency. Many of the countries cited with the highest life expectancy also have the lowest birth rate. What does it say about your government when life is so pleasant the population chooses to self exterminate.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #181 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Why don't you tell us since you are the one asserting it.

This is a very foolish thing to write. How can I possibly answer this? Jazzguru suggested that America had the most Liberty in the world. I responded by asking him to name liberties that exist in the United States that don't exist in Europe. And so I am "asserting" nothing. I am attempting to engage in the back-and-forth of question and response that constitute "debate." I don't know what you mean by "it." You make no sense.

As for the rest of your post, I can't be bothered. Please, stay in the United States. It's the place for you. Stay there.

But I really must mock this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Many of the countries cited with the highest life expectancy also have the lowest birth rate. What does it say about your government when life is so pleasant the population chooses to self exterminate.

You argue that "self extermination" is the only possibly explanation for declining birth rates in Europe. This is a deeply, deeply ridiculous notion. You ignore the complex economic and demographic factors that might contribute to flux in birth rates and settle on "a desire to self-exterminate" because it fits your political world view.

Really, if you believe this then an argument based on facts is going to be impossible. And if you don't believe this, you're just going to write any old thing to "win" and an argument based on facts is going to be impossible.
post #182 of 2360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

This is a very foolish thing to write. How can I possibly answer this?

So you are asking him to answer something you cannot? People understand that rhetorical questions are used to assert a point and not to question. Declaring that when you are called out on this it is foolish is just name calling covering even weaker reasoning.

Quote:
Jazzguru suggested that America had the most Liberty in the world. I responded by asking him to name liberties that exist in the United States that don't exist in Europe. And so I am "asserting" nothing. I am attempting to engage in the back-and-forth of question and response that constitute "debate." I don't know what you mean by "it." You make no sense.

You also cited several examples that you believe proved the point, but they don't prove anything. I easily countered it. You felt the need to cite the examples because the question was rhetorical. Statements need support, questions do not. You supported your "question" because in being rhetorical, you were using it as a statement.

So support your statement because the support you provided currently doesn't.

Quote:
As for the rest of your post, I can't be bothered. Please, stay in the United States. It's the place for you. Stay there.

But I really must mock this:

I will stay thanks. Also I have no doubt you have to drop down to mockery. It is the basis of all leftist thought in this day and age. I mean what can you expect from the folks who get their news from comedians.

Quote:
You argue that "self extermination" is the only possibly explanation for declining birth rates in Europe. This is a deeply, deeply ridiculous notion. You ignore the complex economic and demographic factors that might contribute to flux in birth rates and settle on "a desire to self-exterminate" because it fits your political world view.

Actually I don't ignore them and claiming something is "complex" while not explaining why it is complex and then claiming that someone ignored that complexity while not showing or supporting it is just a straw man. You'd rather knock down what you've declared I "ignored" then the point that was put out there.

As I stated, the life expectancy rate is strongly tied to lack of birth rate. Singapore, Japan, etc. they all have among the lowest birthrates in the world. They are all imploding demographically. This is pure evolution. The fittest survive. You are declaring healthy cultures and countries that will not reproduce. The people within them do not feel the need to carry forward these claimed benefits to the future. They are too burdened to even create the future all while supposedly being so free.

Quote:
Really, if you believe this then an argument based on facts is going to be impossible. And if you don't believe this, you're just going to write any old thing to "win" and an argument based on facts is going to be impossible.

Sorry but birthrate is a fact. Dismissing my facts doesn't change their nature. You asserted life expectancy was the ultimate measure of a medical system and have no proof of that point. It is time for you to go back on ignore if more of your post is going to be an examination of the poster than the issue.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #183 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

You argue that "self extermination" is the only possibly explanation for declining birth rates in Europe. This is a deeply, deeply ridiculous notion. You ignore the complex economic and demographic factors that might contribute to flux in birth rates and settle on "a desire to self-exterminate" because it fits your political world view.

More kids, more retards.
Over population is the only problem the world faces.
post #184 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

So you are asking him to answer something you cannot? People understand that rhetorical questions are used to assert a point and not to question. Declaring that when you are called out on this it is foolish is just name calling covering even weaker reasoning.
.

Oh for heaven's sake.

He claimed that America possessed more Liberty than Europe. I asked him how. That wasn't a rhetorical question. I was looking for specific examples. That's how a fucking debate is conducted. He would defend his position and I would answer it with assertions of my own. Until he responds, I can't explicitly assert anything.

So that's enough. Stop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Actually I don't ignore them and claiming something is "complex" while not explaining why it is complex and then claiming that someone ignored that complexity while not showing or supporting it is just a straw man. You'd rather knock down what you've declared I "ignored" then the point that was put out there.

The sentences that you posted above mean nothing.

You declared, explicitly and without equivocation, that birth rates were declining in Europe because of a will to "self-extermination." In fact, here's your quote:

Quote:
What does it say about your government when life is so pleasant the population chooses to self exterminate.

I countered by saying that this is a reductive, nonsense argument that does not account for the complex political, demographic, economic and environmental factors that might have a hand in the drop in European birth rates. "Self-extermination" is a term that loses you the argument. It is a preposterous notion. Either you believe it, in which case you're too far gone for any kind of rational discourse, or you don't care what you're typing, you just want to argue, in which case serious debate is clearly going to impossible.

Your statement:

Quote:
The people within them do not feel the need to carry forward these claimed benefits to the future. They are too burdened to even create the future all while supposedly being so free.

is pure speculation dressed up as fact. Again, it does not account for the complex political, demographic, economic and environmental factors that might have a hand in the drop in Japanese birth rates. "Pure evolution" and "a desire to self-extermination" are ridiculous, unquantifiable, politically-prompted arguments that do not account for complex facts.

Edit:

And furthermore, when you look at the increasing birthrates in places like Nigeria, where there is no democracy, poverty, food scarcity, pollution, no public services and widespread civil violence, it's absolutely clear after a second's serious consideration that the standard of life and the quantity of 'freedom' and 'liberty' isn't the deciding factor in a nation's birthrate.
post #185 of 2360
This is one of those incredibly rare occasions when Trumptman actually concedes a point.

Making unanswerable arguments using simple logic really does feel good, I have to say.
post #186 of 2360
Thread Starter 
I encourage my fellow posters to not post while drunk. It leads to bad results as above illustrates where imaginary events happen.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #187 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I encourage my fellow posters to not post while drunk. It leads to bad results as above illustrates where imaginary events happen.

That should cut my post rate in half!
post #188 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I encourage my fellow posters to not post while drunk. It leads to bad results as above illustrates where imaginary events happen.

Ad hom reported. I'll take a leaf out of your book for that. Thanks.

And if you're not going to answer my points, I'll take it as evidence that you can't.
post #189 of 2360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Ad hom reported. I'll take a leaf out of your book for that. Thanks.

And if you're not going to answer my points, I'll take it as evidence that you can't.

Maybe you can take it as evidence I already have and since repetition doesn't refute a point, I won't address it again. In the meantime, keep imagining I conceded something to you in your dreams because of some imaginary timeline I have to meet in your mind.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #190 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

In some of these Evil Socialist States, a woman can get a year off from work to have a child and the father can get several weeks. Paid, of course.

Just a little, simple research will show the US is lagging far, far behind. Check out countries like Sweden:
"Sweden is one country which provides generous parental leave: all working parents are entitled to 16 months paid leave per child, the cost being shared between employer and State."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave#Europe

Who pays for these paid time off benefits?
post #191 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Maybe you can take it as evidence I already have and since repetition doesn't refute a point, I won't address it again. In the meantime, keep imagining I conceded something to you in your dreams because of some imaginary timeline I have to meet in your mind.

Kindly point out to me where you discussed this point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

And furthermore, when you look at the increasing birthrates in places like Nigeria, where there is no democracy, poverty, food scarcity, pollution, no public services and widespread civil violence, it's absolutely clear after a second's serious consideration that the standard of life and the quantity of 'freedom' and 'liberty' isn't the deciding factor in a nation's birthrate.

You haven't. You have conceded that you were wrong by refusing to address the point.

Secondly, you still have not addressed my point that your argument on 'self-extermination" by declining birth rates was reductive and an over-simplification of complex factors. In fact, you responded by writing this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

As I stated, the life expectancy rate is strongly tied to lack of birth rate. Singapore, Japan, etc. they all have among the lowest birthrates in the world. They are all imploding demographically. This is pure evolution. The fittest survive. You are declaring healthy cultures and countries that will not reproduce. The people within them do not feel the need to carry forward these claimed benefits to the future. They are too burdened to even create the future all while supposedly being so free.

Since this a re-statement of your argument, all I could I do was re-state that this is a ridiculous over-simplification of very complex factors.

Which you still haven't answered.

Your failure to address these points is to concede that you can't. That's fine. That is the nature of debate. Now we can go on to something else.
post #192 of 2360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Kindly point out to me where you discussed this point:

No. Read for yourself and realize that dismissing something isn't addressing it.

Quote:
You haven't. You have conceded that you were wrong by refusing to address the point.

Stop, you're scaring the unicorns.

Quote:
Secondly, you still have not addressed my point that your argument on 'self-extermination" by declining birth rates was reductive and an over-simplification of complex factors. In fact, you responded by writing this:

Considering you never explained this assertion, no one has to address it. Magical "complex factors" that are never explained or even named is just a rationale to dismiss on your part. Enjoy the unicorns.

Quote:
Since this a re-statement of your argument, all I could I do was re-state that this is a ridiculous over-simplification of very complex factors.

Yes and since your statement explains nothing, it isn't worth addressing. It isn't an argument.

Quote:
Which you still haven't answered.

Your failure to address these points is to concede that you can't. That's fine. That is the nature of debate. Now we can go on to something else.

I'll gladly move on because anyone reading this won't be convinced by what you posted. I'll be happy to continue to find and add information to this thread while you continue to dismiss it was a simplification of a complex issue while never stating how it was simplified or how it is more complex. When you assert a point, you support it or else it fails to persuade. Asserting it is not enough. Enjoy dancing with the unicorns.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #193 of 2360
Thread Starter 
RCP-Impossible Promises

The Medicare point alone is worth examining. How can a program that is currenty on track to bankrupt us not only be reformed to the point of not doing so but also providing enough savings to cover the uncovered.

Oh... I forgot... electronic records.

Quote:
Some of the savings are supposed to come from Medicare. The Times reports "Lawmakers also agree on proposals to squeeze hundreds of billions of dollars out of Medicare by reducing the growth of payments to hospitals and many other health care providers."

With the collapse of the socialist countries, we ought to understand that bureaucrats cannot competently set prices. When they pay too little, costs are covertly shifted to others, or services dry up. When they pay too much, scarce resources are diverted from other important uses and people must go without needed goods. Only markets can assure that people have reasonable access to resources according to each individual's priorities.

Its almost like government intervention distorts markets running efficiently, or something like that.

Don't worry, the solution to the government distortion, more government of course.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #194 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

With the collapse of the socialist countries, we ought to understand that bureaucrats cannot competently set prices. When they pay too little, costs are covertly shifted to others, or services dry up. When they pay too much, scarce resources are diverted from other important uses and people must go without needed goods. Only markets can assure that people have reasonable access to resources according to each individual's priorities.

Which are the socialist countries that have collapsed?
Claim adjusters are not bureaucrats? I have one in the family, he is making 130,000/year.
post #195 of 2360
Thread Starter 
Obama on Obama.

Single payer is the goal.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #196 of 2360
Quote:
Single payer is the goal.

We can only hope.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #197 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

We can only hope.

Hope for Change?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #198 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

No. Read for yourself and realize that dismissing something isn't addressing it.

Stop, you're scaring the unicorns.
.

I made this point:

Quote:
And furthermore, when you look at the increasing birthrates in places like Nigeria, where there is no democracy, poverty, food scarcity, pollution, no public services and widespread civil violence, it's absolutely clear after a second's serious consideration that the standard of life and the quantity of 'freedom' and 'liberty' isn't the deciding factor in a nation's birthrate.

Do you have a response that has nothing to do with unicorns?

It seems to me that you don't. So clearly I am correct in my assertion that Liberty is not the deciding factor in a nation's birth rate, and European nations do not have declining birth rates because they are "self-exterminating", as you suggest.

It appears that you have been out-argued. This is excellent. You can stop responding now.

Your talk of unicorns is designed to be provocative, because you have been out-argued.

Anyone can read for themselves the previous exchange and see that you have been made to look foolish and you are now attempting to muddy the water because you have no response.
post #199 of 2360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

I made this point:

Do you have a response that has nothing to do with unicorns?

It seems to me that you don't. So clearly I am correct in my assertion that Liberty is not the deciding factor in a nation's birth rate, and European nations do not have declining birth rates because they are "self-exterminating", as you suggest.

It appears that you have been out-argued. This is excellent. You can stop responding now.

Your talk of unicorns is designed to be provocative, because you have been out-argued.

Anyone can read for themselves the previous exchange and see that you have been made to look foolish and you are now attempting to muddy the water because you have no response.

Keep arguing with yourself about how one must be correct due to self-selected criteria instead of reality. Keep arguing that you have made a point because you've flung some crap up on a wall and thought it stuck. Assert whatever you want about yourself and your arguments. The unicorns appreciate it.

In the meantime here is a large PDF that sorts through the dust and makes clear how a government take over of our heath care will be damaging and also shows how inferior the health care systems are in places that feature government service.

A few choice bits.....

Quote:
Numerous studies have attempted to compare the quality of health care systems.
In most of these surveys, the United States fares poorly, finishing well behind other
industrialized countries. This has led critics of the U.S. health care system to suggest that
Americans pay more for health care but receive less. There are several reasons to be skeptical of
these rankings. First, many choose areas of comparison based on the results they wish to
achieve, or according to the values of the comparer. For example, SiCKO cites a 2000 World
Health Organization study that ranks the U.S. health care system 37th in the world, “slightly
better than Slovenia.”18 (See Table 1.) This study bases its conclusions on such
highly subjective measures as “fairness” and criteria that are not strictly related to a country’s
health care system, such as “tobacco control.” For example, the WHO report penalizes
the United States for not having a sufficiently progressive tax system, not providing all citizens
with health insurance, and having a general paucity of social welfare programs.

Indeed, much of the poor performance of the United States is due to its ranking of 54th in the categoryof fairness. The United States is actually penalized for adopting Health Savings Accounts and because, according to the WHO, patients pay too much out of pocket.19 Such
judgments clearly reflect a particular political point of view, rather than a neutral measure of
health care quality. Notably, the WHO report ranks the United States number one in the
world in responsiveness to patients’ needs in choice of provider, dignity, autonomy, timely
care, and confidentiality.20

and......

Quote:
When you compare the outcomes for specific diseases, the United States clearly outperforms
the rest of the world. Whether the disease is cancer, pneumonia, heart disease, or
AIDS, the chances of a patient surviving are far higher in the United States than in other countries.
For example, according to a study published in the British medical journal The Lancet,
the United States is at the top of the charts when it comes to surviving cancer. Among
men, roughly 62.9 percent of those diagnosed with cancer survive for at least five years. The
news is even better for women: the five year-survival rate is 66.3 percent, or two-thirds. The
countries with the next best results are Iceland for men (61.8 percent) and Sweden for women
(60.3 percent). Most countries with national health care fare far worse. For example, in Italy,
59.7 percent of men and 49.8 percent of women survive five years. In Spain, just 59 percent
of men and 49.5 percent of women do. And in Great Britain, a dismal 44.8 percent of
men and only a slightly better 52.7 percent of women live for five years after diagnosis.26

There is much much more there for anyone who cares to read and think about it. It is especially true for those who want to compare apples to apples and not to... intentions.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #200 of 2360
I am once again ashamed of my country of birth.

Yet another disrupted meeting, this one with a scuffle or two. The protesters said they were encouraged by a local conservative group supported by Glen Beck. Some had signs showing the picture that shows Obama painted like the Joker.

This is really getting childish.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_253478.html

The link has video of the protestors.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
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