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The Biggest Threat to Obama's Health Care "Reform" - Reality - Page 41

post #1601 of 2360
Health-care reform: Why I'm suing to get back my freedom

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1602 of 2360
An attempt to repeal one of the more burdensome requirements of Obamacare failed a Senate vote today: Senate Rejects Change On Tax Reporting
Quote:
It mandates that all businesses, tax-exempt organizations, and federal, state and local government entities issue Form 1099s to vendors from whom they purchase goods totaling $600 or more during a calendar year beginning in 2012.


So, if you're a small business you'll have to issue a 1099 to each vendor for just about every little purchase you make. Yet more unproductive, burdensome paperwork and ever-intrusive IRS anal inspections.

Be sure to keep a copy of the bill around, to ensure you're compliant:



ObamaCare is already under bipartisan siege—and in the same Congress that passed it.

So what does this have to do with Obamacare? The lovely and gracious Speaker of the House famously explained they had to pass this bill so we can "find out what's in it, away from the fog of controversy."

Thank you, Madam Speaker, for lifting the fog.
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post #1603 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

An attempt to repeal one of the more burdensome requirements of Obamacare failed a Senate vote today: Senate Rejects Change On Tax Reporting
.

Each week brings some new element of this pox upon civilization health care law that must be repealed for this or that; Republicans and Democrats are campaigning on repealing parts of it or actively criticizing its legislative existence. Small business owners are squirreling away millions in order to prepare for compliance with its burdensome regulations while states are fielding Attorney Generals to contest the law. It seems a moral imperative to vacate the ObamaCare legislation in whole on the maxim that the legislation is a danger to homeland security. As a matter of fact, the only real success ObamaCare will ever achieve is relieving Democrats of their office in November.
post #1604 of 2360

Quote:
As Luke Wake, one of my attorneys, says: "Never before has the federal government ordered citizens to buy a good or service on pain of financial punishment. The Constitution, properly interpreted, simply doesnt permit this kind of micro-management of peoples lives by bureaucrats in Washington."

The Speaker of the House "properly interprets" the Constitution thus: "...the power of Congress to regulate health care is essentially unlimited."
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post #1605 of 2360

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #1606 of 2360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Democrats spend on anti-health-reform advertisements

Obstructionists!!

Don't forget... RACISTS!!!

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #1607 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Don't forget... RACISTS!!!

Well of course. That's a given. Why do these Democrats hate Obama because he's black?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #1608 of 2360
Oh snap...people don't like Obamacare because it DOESN'T DO ENOUGH!

Quote:
A new AP poll finds that Americans who think the law should have done more outnumber those who think the government should stay out of health care by 2-to-1.

Quote:
Republicans "are going to have to contend with the 75 percent who want substantial changes in the system," said Stanford political science professor Jon Krosnick, who directed the university's participation.

"Republican legislators' passion to repeal the legislation is understandable if they are paying attention to members of their own party," Krosnick added. "But if they want to be responsive to all Americans, there are more Democrats and independents than there are Republicans."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/...n6899989.shtml

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #1609 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Hyperlinks work by clicking on them - move your cursor over the link and depress - the link provided in my prior post not only shows you wrong, but me (and more important my point) right.

Lest you are unable to scroll back herein is the evidence: i.e., Iraq's proven use of WMDs against Iran. particularly Saddam's chemical massacre of the Kurds in Halabja in 1988. This WMD use, and its presence in country, validated our invasion of Iraq. I have no doubt you'll parrot some leftist propaganda in response, but do try to at least accept the facts that history has shown true.

Aren't the Kurds Iraqis? Since it is impossible for countries to declare war on themselves this was a law enforcement issue. A cruel one but in the end no one's business but the Iraqis. Why again did we not invade Sudan and several other African countries who did the same but killed thousands more?
Should China invade the US for putting Japanese Americans into camps in 1942?
We must accept the facts that history has shown true.
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post #1610 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Oh snap...people don't like Obamacare because it DOESN'T DO ENOUGH!

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/...n6899989.shtml

Let's dig a little deeper shall we?

Quote:
A new AP poll finds that Americans who think the law should have done more outnumber those who think the government should stay out of health care by 2-to-1.

This does not imply that the so-called "reform" law should do more of what it was doing, but rather that it didn't go far enough (if at all) to actually reform the problems present in the system. The clues to this are further down:

Quote:
The poll found that about four in 10 adults think the new law did not go far enough to change the health care system, regardless of whether they support the law, oppose it or remain neutral.

And...

Quote:
The AP poll was conducted by Stanford University with the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. Overall, 30 percent favored the legislation, while 40 percent opposed it, and another 30 percent remained neutral.

Those numbers are no endorsement for President Obama's plan...

And...

Quote:
Broad majorities of both the "get-outs" and "do-mores" said medical care, health insurance and prescription drugs cost too much. And most said the system should aim to increase the number of people with insurance and enable Americans to get the care they need, while improving quality.

The differences emerge when it comes to the means:

This is where Obamapologists get logically wrapped around the axle. They're so busy assuming that anyone opposed to Obamacare are hateful racists and/or social Darwinists that they fail to realize that people can share goals (more affordable, available, quality health care products and services and more affordable health insurance) while differing (sometimes significantly) on the approach to achieving these goals.

Heck, I think the law should have done more too! I just think it should have done a different set of things. I would have been favorable if it did anything that will actually reform the problems in the health care system.

When you couple this with the general level of ignorance among the American public about the economics of this issue, you may have people wanting or calling for or supporting things that they don't realize will end up being more harmful and even achieving the opposite of what they hoped for an intended.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1611 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

This is where Obamapologists get logically wrapped around the axle. They're so busy assuming that anyone opposed to Obamacare are hateful racists and/or social Darwinists that they fail to realize that people can share goals (more affordable, available, quality health care products and services and more affordable health insurance) while differing (sometimes significantly) on the approach to achieving these goals.

Heck, I think the law should have done more too! I just think it should have done a different set of things. I would have been favorable if it did anything that will actually reform the problems in the health care system.

When you couple this with the general level of ignorance among the American public about the economics of this issue, you may have people wanting or calling for or supporting things that they don't realize will end up being more harmful and even achieving the opposite of what they hoped for an intended.

Yes, I want affordable healthcare for everyone. Including the unemployed, underemployed, people earning $20,000 a year, people living month-to-month. Free-market Insurance options won't solve that. Not even close.

And every other industrial country in the world has a better system for this than the US does. And every one of those systems includes government programs.
post #1612 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yes, I want affordable healthcare for everyone. Including the unemployed, underemployed, people earning $20,000 a year, people living month-to-month. Free-market Insurance options won't solve that. Not even close.

I believe you're wrong.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1613 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I believe you're wrong.

So explain how under the free market system a full-time worker at McDonald's can pay for a kidney transplant. Thanks.
post #1614 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So explain how under the free market system a full-time worker at McDonald's can pay for a kidney transplant. Thanks.

I've seen several cases where communities, charities, churches, companies etc. came together to donate money for someone's medical needs.

Imagine the good we could do if the government let us keep more of our money.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #1615 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So explain how under the free market system a full-time worker at McDonald's can pay for a kidney transplant. Thanks.

I assume a person would have health insurance for such things. That's what health insurance is for...major, unexpected, but possible and probably expensive medical issues. Right?

Now are we going to go through a string of scenarios you hand pick to try and "prove" why markets don't work?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1616 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Imagine the good we could do if the government let us keep more of our money.

Fucking extremist!

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1617 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I assume a person would have health insurance for such things. That's what health insurance is for...major, unexpected, but possible and probably expensive medical issues. Right?

Now are we going to go through a string of scenarios you hand pick to try and "prove" why markets don't work?

How many McDonald's workers do you think have health insurance?
post #1618 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I've seen several cases where communities, charities, churches, companies etc. came together to donate money for someone's medical needs.

And there are far MORE cases where people with health bills cannot get treatment, go bankrupt, and quite often commit suicide.
post #1619 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

And there are far MORE cases where people with health bills cannot get treatment, go bankrupt, and quite often commit suicide.

Really? Do you know that for certain?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #1620 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

How many McDonald's workers do you think have health insurance?


Well some are on their parent's insurance. Some don't because it's too expensive. Some don't even though they could afford they chose to spend their money on other things like having a cell phone or going out drinking.

How many do you think have it? Why?

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post #1621 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

How many McDonald's workers do you think have health insurance?

Most of them take advantage of some aspects of private health/medical plan offered by the company.

http://www.aboutmcdonalds.com/mcd/ca..._benefits.html
post #1622 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Really? Do you know that for certain?

Yes, he has factual data to support this claim. Specifically the suicide one.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1623 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So explain how under the free market system a full-time worker at McDonald's can pay for a kidney transplant. Thanks.

Explain how a collectivist solution to health care would pay for an organ transplant, when even Steve Jobs "almost died" waiting for one.
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post #1624 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

Explain how a collectivist solution to health care would pay for an organ transplant, when even Steve Jobs "almost died" waiting for one.

Waiting for a transplant is the same as the ability to afford a transplant? That's new.

Ignorance is strong in this one, we may have to consult Obi Wahn.
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post #1625 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Waiting for a transplant is the same as the ability to afford a transplant? That's new.

Ignorance is strong in this one, we may have to consult Obi Wahn.

So what's the point of asking how a free market system will "pay for a kidney transplant" if a socialist system couldn't help?

It's your straw man, go ahead and attack it.
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post #1626 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

So what's the point of asking how a free market system will "pay for a kidney transplant" if a socialist system couldn't help?

It's your straw man, go ahead and attack it.

dear brother you type in riddles.
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post #1627 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

dear brother you type in riddles.

Of course he does. If he didn't you would readily see the emperor has no clothes.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #1628 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

So what's the point of asking how a free market system will "pay for a kidney transplant" if a socialist system couldn't help?

It's your straw man, go ahead and attack it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Of course he does. If he didn't you would readily see the emperor has no clothes.

The question is tonton's to answer. He's asleep.

Sure, he's a libtard, but apparently one with at least a secondary education.
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post #1629 of 2360
Don't be daft.. Every year there are 16,000 kideny transplants in the US. Steve Jobs relates how, exactly, except as a red herring?
post #1630 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Don't be daft.. Every year there are 16,000 kideny transplants in the US. Steve Jobs relates how, exactly, except as a red herring?

It's your red herring tonton. You asked MJ to

Quote:
... explain how under the free market system a full-time worker at McDonald's can pay for a kidney transplant.

To which he responded with several solutions, including the fact that MCD provides generous health insurance as a benefit to its employees. If I'm not mistaken MCD and their insurance partners operate in the free market (what remains of it, anyway).

I interpreted your statement as an implication that a free market can't "pay" for organ transplants, but a collectivist solution can. I'm waiting for an answer. If that's not what your question was meant to imply then...

Quote:
Originally Posted by my brilliant self

... what's the point of asking how a free market system will "pay for a kidney transplant" if a socialist system couldn't help?

It's not my intent to lead the discussion away from that question by bringing up SJ, but the question stands. Would you care to answer?

Perhaps this is your solution? Forced Organ Harvesting in China
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post #1631 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

The question is tonton's to answer. He's asleep.

Sure, he's a libtard, but apparently one with at least a secondary education.

Quote:
Sure, he's a libtard, but apparently one with at least a secondary education

But then again he's talking to a fictional character ( that talks in riddles ) from a bad book so I'd tend to give him the benifit of a doubt.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #1632 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

To which he responded with several solutions, including the fact that MCD provides generous health insurance as a benefit to its employees.

That's McDonald's office workers. Health benefits to McDonald's restaurant workers are the responsibility of the franchisee. And almost none of them offer any for non-salaried staff.
post #1633 of 2360
The truth is the US is not ready for a African American to lead the country yet. This is way to soon. maybe in another 10 years possibly.
post #1634 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerald apple View Post

The truth is the US is not ready for a African American to lead the country yet. This is way to soon. maybe in another 10 years possibly.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1635 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerald apple View Post

The truth is the US is not ready for a African American to lead the country yet. This is way to soon. maybe in another 10 years possibly.



You could not be more wrong gerald. If that's what you think then you don't understand a damn thing about the United States.
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post #1636 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

... Would you care to answer?

I'll assume you don't. No problem.
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post #1637 of 2360
The latest from Dr. Paul:

Healthcare Reform: A Huge Misdiagnosis

Quote:
This week marked six months since Congress passed the healthcare reform bill in what has become all-too-typical legislative chicanery. Those in power crafted a mammoth piece of legislation and rammed it through Congress under a dire sense of emergency. Insisting on time enough to read the bill was dismissed as dangerous and crazy in a time of crisis. We were told that if we really wanted to see what was in the bill, we would have to pass it first. I cannot imagine the founding fathers intended for Congress to legislate in this manner. I would think if a Member is not absolutely certain the entire legislation meets Constitutional muster, the default vote should be "no" in accordance with our oath of office.

But now that Congress has had six months to read the new law, there is a significant amount of buyer's remorse on Capitol Hill. The more constituents learn about the law, the more angry they become. 60% of Americans are now said to be in favor of repealing the entire thing. Unfortunately, it is much more difficult to repeal a law than to pass a bill.

I wrote a while back about the egregious provision to require businesses to issue 1099s for all transactions over $600 as a way to partially pay for it. I have cosponsored legislation to fix this issue, yet this is just the tip of the iceberg.

First of all, in spite of the administration repeating over and over that this legislation would not increase costs for Americans, they are now saying they knew all along that it would. The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates that American families will see their premiums rise by an average of $2100 by 2016. The Wall Street Journal has reported that the cost of compliance is forcing some insurers to increase premiums by up to 20% as soon as next year!

Also, in spite of repeated claims from the administration that we could all keep our plans and doctors if we liked them, the administration's own officials are now predicting that won't be true for up to 117 million Americans who will lose their current plans. Major insurers are also dropping child-only plans because of mandates and price-fixing on such policies, leaving parents with fewer choices for their children, not more.

In addition, in spite of claiming this law would contain government costs, not increase them, administration actuaries now predict it will increase healthcare spending by over $300 billion. This additional spending comes along with doctor shortages, fewer choices and more taxes. Perhaps worst of all, increases in labor costs because of health insurance mandates are discouraging employers from hiring new workers and even triggering more layoffs.

Anyone with a basic understanding of Austrian economics could have predicted the unintended consequences of these new healthcare policies. Central planning never increases choices and quality or cuts costs as promised. Price controls and government mandates always create artificial scarcity. Healthcare is not a right, nor a privilege. It is a product, like food or clothing. As with any good or service, the free market regulation of supply and demand provides the optimum quality to the maximum number of people. Once we realize the problems we are trying to solve today were created by government intervention beginning in the 1960's, we can begin to put patients and doctors back in control of healthcare, rather than third party oligopolies and government bureaucrats. The sooner, the better.

On a related note, Dr. Paul's mention of wanting time to read the bill reminded me of a quote from James Madison's Federalist no. 62:

Quote:
It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice, if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood; if they be repealed or revised before they are promulgated, or undergo such incessant changes that no man who knows what the law is today can guess what it will be tomorrow.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #1638 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

The latest from Dr. Paul:

What do the following Senators and Congressmen have in common?

John Barrasso
John Boozman
Charles Boustany
Paul Broun
Bill Cassidy
Tom Coburn
John Fleming
Phil Gingrey
Tim Murphy
Ron Paul
Tom Price
Phil Roe

Answer: In addition to serving in Congress, they're all doctors.

So...? They all voted against Obamacare.

Three MDs in Congress are Democrats, and two (Steve Kagen and Vic Snyder) voted for Obamacare. Snyder is retiring, good riddance. As for Kagen,
Quote:
After attending a campaign event on the Oneida reservation, and then in Green Bay, Wisconsin on 20 October 2006, Kagen commented, in part: "Appreciate getting here almost on time. Our excuse in Oneida was, well, we're on Injun time. They don't tell time by the clock."

Quote:
Kagen came under fire for a rumored comment at a November 13, 2006 White House function, after Appleton-area newspapers picked up on a story printed in an alternative paper, The Scene. According to the paper, Congressman-elect Kagen met presidential adviser Karl Rove in a bathroom and told him : "You recognize me? My name's Dr. Multimillionaire and I kicked your ass."

For the sake of "injuns", paleface, and multimillionaires of all colors in Wisconsin's 8th district - Appleton and north, Green Bay, Door County... please kick this meathead out of office forever. Then revoke his license to practice medicine.

How did your rep vote: http://politics.nytimes.com/congress...11/house/2/163
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post #1639 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

What do the following Senators and Congressmen have in common?

John Barrasso
John Boozman
Charles Boustany
Paul Broun
Bill Cassidy
Tom Coburn
John Fleming
Phil Gingrey
Tim Murphy
Ron Paul
Tom Price
Phil Roe

Answer: In addition to serving in Congress, they're all doctors.

So...? They all voted against Obamacare.

Three MDs in Congress are Democrats, and two (Steve Kagen and Vic Snyder) voted for Obamacare. Snyder is retiring, good riddance. As for Kagen,



For the sake of "injuns", paleface, and multimillionaires of all colors in Wisconsin's 8th district - Appleton and north, Green Bay, Door County... please kick this meathead out of office forever. Then revoke his license to practice medicine.

How did your rep vote: http://politics.nytimes.com/congress...11/house/2/163

Obviously special interests like doctors would vote against anything that could possible reduce their personal income. Let's not forget this law is about money and not health. Typical Republican idiocy. You should look how non doctors vote to understand who is being helped here.
Doctors know about medicine not law or budget or insurance.
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post #1640 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Obviously special interests like doctors would vote against anything that could possible reduce their personal income. Let's not forget this law is about money and not health.

You are surprisingly correct about that wormhole. A doctor, like any other professional, relies upon cash flow for his very survival. The rise of health insurance monopoly has had the effect of reducing the average physician's income radically since the rise of HMOs in the 1980s.
Quote:
Doctors know about medicine not law or budget or insurance.

I disagree. You'd be surprised how much doctors in private practice know about cash flow and insurance. It's become a very necessary, but distracting and unproductive part of their profession that contributes absolutely nothing to the service they provide. What doctor in private practice hasn't had to hire two or three full time personnel to manage insurance claims alone? What doctor hasn't had to sacrifice personal time with his patients in order to cram more of them into his day? Is it any wonder that I, as a self-insured, cash paying customer, I have absolutely no problem getting an appointment at a moment's notice for about a third of what it costs with someone who has an intermediary pay instead?

Obamacare addressed none of these inconvenient truths that have contributed to the health care mess in this country. It merely served to empower the insurance monopoly we all have grown to detest, by requiring that everyone buy their crappy products at the expense of destroying quality medical care in this country.

Protecting their profession notwithstanding - I submit that physicians in Congress certainly know a thing or two about medical care. Their uninformed colleagues who pander to the insurance lobby juggernaut certainly do not.
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