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The Biggest Threat to Obama's Health Care "Reform" - Reality - Page 42

post #1641 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

You are surprisingly correct about that wormhole. A doctor, like any other professional, relies upon cash flow for his very survival. The rise of health insurance monopoly has had the effect of reducing the average physician's income radically since the rise of HMOs in the 1980s.

I disagree. You'd be surprised how much doctors in private practice know about cash flow and insurance. It's become a very necessary, but distracting and unproductive part of their profession that contributes absolutely nothing to the service they provide. What doctor in private practice hasn't had to hire two or three full time personnel to manage insurance claims alone? What doctor hasn't had to sacrifice personal time with his patients in order to cram more of them into his day? Is it any wonder that I, as a self-insured, cash paying customer, I have absolutely no problem getting an appointment at a moment's notice for about a third of what it costs with someone who has an intermediary pay instead?

Obamacare addressed none of these inconvenient truths that have contributed to the health care mess in this country. It merely served to empower the insurance monopoly we all have grown to detest, by requiring that everyone buy their crappy products at the expense of destroying quality medical care in this country.

Protecting their profession notwithstanding - I submit that physicians in Congress certainly know a thing or two about medical care. Their uninformed colleagues who pander to the insurance lobby juggernaut certainly do not.

Exactly. Single payer government healthcare would eliminate a lot of expenses for doctors. Every bill goes to one place. However it would also eliminate their payoffs and guaranteed business from insurers and bring the free market to the doctors office. Who would want that?
I used to be a cash payer until I found that simply having a PPO will reduce your costs by 25% since insurance cos pre negotiate rates for procedures and have the power to make or break any doctor.
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post #1642 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Exactly. Single payer government healthcare would...bring the free market to the doctors office.

Woaaa! Woo hoo...that's a good one. Brilliant comedy there. Are you taking that show on the road?

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post #1643 of 2360
A single-payer system would bring the free market to the doctor's office?!

*wipes tear from eye*

Man, I needed a good laugh today. Thank you!

So in a single-payer system, if you can't get the treatment you need when you need it, your options are...what?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #1644 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Woaaa! Woo hoo...that's a good one. Brilliant comedy there. Are you taking that show on the road?

Current system:
Doctor signs deal with insurance company or works for network owned facility. Insurer send list of doctors they have contracted to customers. If customer gets care from doc not under contract, customer is punished and has to pay more or insurance pays a lesser % of treatment.

Single payer:
Doctor has to offer great service or has no customers.


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post #1645 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

A single-payer system would bring the free market to the doctor's office?!

*wipes tear from eye*

Man, I needed a good laugh today. Thank you!

So in a single-payer system, if you can't get the treatment you need when you need it, your options are...what?

We have been there. This is false. You are a complete ... (censored by Appleinsider NOT THE GOVERNMENT).
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post #1646 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Current system:
Doctor signs deal with insurance company or works for network owned facility. Insurer send list of doctors they have contracted to customers. If customer gets care from doc not under contract, customer is punished and has to pay more or insurance pays a lesser % of treatment.

Single payer:
Doctor has to offer great service or has no customers.



A government run single-payer system has nothing to do with (other than distorting) a "free market" system. Stop saying things that aren't true. It looks foolish.

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post #1647 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

We have been there. This is false. You are a complete ... (censored by Appleinsider NOT THE GOVERNMENT).

What is false? And why the personal attacks?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #1648 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

I have absolutely no problem getting an appointment at a moment's notice for about a third of what it costs with someone who has an intermediary pay instead?

I call BS on that one. My surgery in 2005 was 50k for cash payers, negotiated down to 10k by my insurance, and I paid 4k or so.
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post #1649 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

A government run single-payer system has nothing to do with (other than distorting) a "free market" system. Stop saying things that aren't true. It looks foolish.

How so?
Tell me what is "free" about the current healthcare market.
In any gov healthcare system you can go to ANY DOCTOR not just the ones that are IN NETWORK.

the current system is not free market. Insurance cos are monopolies by state.
Just because you don't have any argument that supports your false assumptions that does not make it so.
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post #1650 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

I call BS on that one. My surgery in 2005 was 50k for cash payers, negotiated down to 10k by my insurance, and I paid 4k or so.

John Galt is maybe 13 years old and scraped his knee once. Completely clueless of reality.
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post #1651 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

How so?

Because you have the government controlling payment. That's not a free market system at all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Tell me what is "free" about the current healthcare market.

Not much. I didn't claim the current system was. I've actually said that multiple times here to folks who claim that the current "free market" health care system is a failure because it is a "free market" system.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

the current system is not free market.

I know that. I never claimed it was. When the governments (federal, state and local) provide around 50% of the funding into a market (to say nothing of the massive amount of regulation, price controls, mandates, licensing requirements, competition inhibitors they add) you cannot call that market "free" and keep a straight face. That's exactly what the problem is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Insurance cos are monopolies by state.

More like a cartel, but yeah, you're basically right. See what happens when governments try to "manage" and "control" the economy and markets?

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post #1652 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

I call BS on that one. My surgery in 2005 was 50k for cash payers, negotiated down to 10k by my insurance, and I paid 4k or so.

This obviously proves the absurdity of the insurance lobby. No one ever expected to pay 50k, when the "negotiated" fee was 10k.

One third is approximately correct... and I would never go to a doctor for a scraped knee or stuffy nose. To do so is irresponsible and only exacerbates the problem.
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post #1653 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Because you have the government controlling payment. That's not a free market system at all.

Since we do live in a democracy I am the government to a far larger % than I am a private insurance co. I can control aspects of government but I can not control an insurance co with my vote. As gov we have the power to legislate healthcare prices, we do not have this power over insurance cos.

We are the government and we should be in control over our health $$$ NOT SOME PRIVATE ASSHOLE CEO with 5 jets and 7 whores. Seems to work for congressmen as well as for millions of soldiers and people on medicare.
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post #1654 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

As gov we have the power to legislate healthcare prices...

No, you don't. That kind of power is merely an illusion. Ask anybody in Greece.
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post #1655 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Since we do live in a democracy...

Not sure where you live, but in the US we have a federal constitutional republic, which means, in part, we don't do everything by majority vote and, in fact, what the government can and cannot to is limited by a written constitution. It also means that the states have powers (in the case of the US many of the things the federal government currently does are more rightfully the responsibility of the states absent constitutional amendments vesting this power to the central government.) Yes, another way to express the republican nature of our government is to refer to it as a representative democracy, but this is quite different from what most people think of as a "democracy."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

I can control aspects of government but I can not control an insurance co with my vote.

You think so huh? Still believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy too?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

As gov we have the power to legislate healthcare prices

You might be able to legislate prices, but that doesn't mean you can control costs. Come back when you understand what I just said. The difference is subtle but extremely important.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

We are the government and we should be in control over our health $$$ NOT SOME PRIVATE ASSHOLE CEO with 5 jets and 7 whores. Seems to work for congressmen as well as for millions of soldiers and people on medicare.

You truly have a Utopian dream don't you?

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post #1656 of 2360
Just saw this, which is directly relevant to the previous discussion referencing McDonalds.
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post #1657 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

We are the government and we should be in control over our health $$$ NOT SOME PRIVATE ASSHOLE CEO with 5 jets and 7 whores.

Are you not in control of your health?

If you aren't, who is controlling your health? God?
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post #1658 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Just saw this, which is directly relevant to the previous discussion referencing McDonalds.

I saw the full story in the WSJ: McDonald's May Drop Health Plan

Quote:
Benefit consultants anticipate that, by 2014, most employers will stop offering mini-med plans. Such plans likely wouldn't meet the definition of adequate coverage for full-time workers. Under the law, midsize and large employers that fail to offer such coverage will have to pay a fine.

Insurers say dozens of other employers could find themselves in the same situation as McDonald's. Aetna Inc., one of the largest sellers of mini-med plans, provides the plans to Home Depot Inc., Disney Worldwide Services, CVS Caremark Corp., Staples Inc. and Blockbuster Inc., among others, according to an Aetna client list obtained by the Journal. Aetna also covers AmeriCorps teaching-program sponsors, who are required by law to make health coverage available.

Aetna declined to comment; it has previously indicated that the requirement could hurt its limited benefit plans.

"There is not any issuer of limited benefit coverage that could meet the enhanced MLR standards," said Neil Trautwein, a vice president at the National Retail Federation, using the abbreviation for medical loss ratio.

Didn't O promise you could keep your existing plan? Yes - repeatedly:

Linda Douglass of the White House Office of Health Reform debunks the myth that reform will force you out of your current insurance plan or force you to change doctors.

I guess that was a crock, just like Obama's tax cut.

Obamacare's potential casualties appear to be growing by the day. Get out those body bags.
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post #1659 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

Are you not in control of your health?

If you aren't, who is controlling your health? God?

Cooockie, coochi coooo...baby boy.

health $$ ≠ health.

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post #1660 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Cooockie, coochi coooo...baby boy.

health $$ ≠ health.


I surmise English is not your native language?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post





etc.

And you say I type in riddles?
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post #1661 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Just saw this, which is directly relevant to the previous discussion referencing McDonalds.

Another one bites the dust: Principal Financial to Quit Medical Insurance

What happens with compulsory health insurance? Big companies get bigger:

Quote:
Principal said its exit in part is because smaller insurers will have a hard time competing with bigger players under the (Obamacare) overhaul.

"With health reform, aggregation of these plans is looming because it is getting harder and harder for smaller plans to compete in a more regulated environment," said Joshua Raskin, an analyst at Barclays Capital.

Thought you could keep your own insurance plan? Wrong.
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post #1662 of 2360
Of course. The goal is to consolidate the power into the hands of a few. That has always been the goal of statists.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #1663 of 2360
Incredible. The Stockholm Syndrome, inflicted upon us by the captors we elected to represent us:

Federal Agency Flexible On McDonald's Plan

Absolutely amazing. I've often wondered how it is possible for a free country to voluntarily enslave itself. Now I know.
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post #1664 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

Incredible. The Stockholm Syndrome, inflicted upon us by the captors we elected to represent us:

Federal Agency Flexible On McDonald's Plan

Absolutely amazing. I've often wondered how it is possible for a free country to voluntarily enslave itself. Now I know.

I cannot tell you how much this:

Quote:
The Obama administration said Thursday that its top health official will "exercise her discretion" in enforcing a new health-law requirement

Warms the cockles of my heart. Not.

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post #1665 of 2360
Quote:
The Obama administration said Thursday that its top health official will "exercise her discretion" in enforcing a new health-law requirement

Just what we need - another unelected, unaccountable Czar with supreme authority.

A bit dated, but yet another vote of no confidence has arisen:

Dear Patients: Vote to Repeal ObamaCare
Quote:
The letter states in unambiguous language what the new law means:

"Dear Patient: Section 1311 of the new health care legislation gives the U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services and her appointees the power to establish care guidelines that your doctor must abide by or face penalties and fines. In making doctors answerable in the federal bureaucracy this bill effectively makes them government employees and means that you and your doctor are no longer in charge of your health care decisions. ...

Quote:

Here's another reference: OPPONENTS OF THE 219 HOUSE DEMOCRATS WHO VOTED TO PASS OBAMACARE

Docs 4 Patient Care Endorsed Candidates for November 2010 Mid-Term Election

Even the Obamatons are running for the exits:
Quote:
Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon, one of the architects of the healthcare insurance mandates, has voiced second thoughts, saying "I would like to explore the possibility of Oregon moving forward with a federal waiver (on mandates)"

A bit late, Senator Wyden.

Quote:
Another Democrat, Mississippi Congressman Gene Taylor, has broken ranks and joined with 171 Republicans in signing petition #11 which calls for a vote to repeal Obamacare. ... Not to be outdone, the American Medical Association (AMA) became the latest turncoat on Obamacare when they announced their support of Tea Party favorite, Pat Toomey for senator of Pennsylvania.

A bit late, AMA.

Quote:
Unfortunately, they wield more influence than should be the case for an organization that represents so few doctors- only 17% of the doctors in the US - and a large percentage of this group are medical students, residents in training, retired doctors and academicians who are often removed from patient care issues. As they embark on a campaign to bolster their dwindling numbers by offering a half price membership sale, their efforts are proving futile because they are as out of touch with their constituency as is the current resident of the White House with his.

My own worthless (D) Rep turned a completely deaf ear to his constituents' overwhelming opposition to this debacle. His new and improved position is to "fix" the law once re-elected.

Fool me once...
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post #1666 of 2360
Quote:
A majority (54%) of voters say they would be more likely to vote for a candidate who supported health care reform, including 51% of independent voters and 79% of Democratic voters. Nearly 6-in-10 (59%) Republican voters say they would be less likely to vote for a candidate who supported health care reform.

http://www.publicreligion.org

Yep, a huge threat that reality thing.
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post #1667 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

http://www.publicreligion.org

Yep, a huge threat that reality thing.

I would vote for health care reform. I'm hoping someday we get the chance. \

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post #1668 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I would vote for health care reform. I'm hoping someday we get the chance. \

You may:

Quote:
We will enact real medical liability reform; allow Americans to purchase health coverage across state lines; empower small businesses with greater purchasing power; and create new incentives to save for future health needs. We will protect the doctor-patient relationship, and ensure that those with pre-existing conditions gain access to the coverage they need.

Imagine Congress using the Commerce Clause to... actually regulate interstate commerce!

The insurance lobby has already mobilized massive forces in opposition to this radical idea. Look out for it. Expanded health savings accounts are also long overdue, especially since the IRS has prohibited the use of FSAs for just about everything imaginable.

http://pledge.gop.gov/resources/libr...ocket-card.pdf
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post #1669 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

You may:



Imagine Congress using the Commerce Clause to... actually regulate interstate commerce!

That's one step toward reform I would vote for!

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post #1670 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

One third is approximately correct... and I would never go to a doctor for a scraped knee or stuffy nose. To do so is irresponsible and only exacerbates the problem.

In the US, you don't go to the doctor when you have a stuffy nose because you can't go to the doctor when you have a stuffy nose. This is because the medical system in the US sucks. Even if you have insurance, it's either not worth paying the deductible or it's not worth the hit on your insurance premiums.

In the normal kind of country with a good medical system, you go to the doctor, pay $25 in cash, get your flu medicine and the security that your illness isn't something worse. The doctor profits from this enough to earn a living, so there's no harm to the medical system at all.

The fact that you don't go to the doctor for a stuffy nose has nothing to do with irresponsibility. The fact that it exacerbates the problem in the US is evidence that the system in the US is broken.
post #1671 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

In the US, you don't go to the doctor when you have a stuffy nose because you can't go to the doctor when you have a stuffy nose.

No, you don't go because it's stupid to do so. It's stupid to tie up a highly qualified medical practitioner over something that almost everyone can diagnose and treat themselves.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

This is because the medical system in the US sucks.

Some aspects of it surely do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

In the normal kind of country with a good medical system, you go to the doctor, pay $25 in cash, get your flu medicine and the security that your illness isn't something worse. The doctor profits from this enough to earn a living, so there's no harm to the medical system at all.

Except in the consumption of resources that could have been applied to more serious issues.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

The fact that you don't go to the doctor for a stuffy nose has nothing to do with irresponsibility. The fact that it exacerbates the problem in the US is evidence that the system in the US is broken.

Wrong.

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post #1672 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

No, you don't go because it's stupid to do so. It's stupid to tie up a highly qualified medical practitioner over something that almost everyone can diagnose and treat themselves.

Weird, I had a stuffy nose, turns out I needed a $ 22,000.- surgery to remove polyps. I know I could have gone in using a fork and the bathroom mirror but why do I have a $ 1,200 a month insurance?
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post #1673 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Weird, I had a stuffy nose, turns out I needed a $ 22,000.- surgery to remove polyps. I know I could have gone in using a fork and the bathroom mirror but why do I have a $ 1,200 a month insurance?

Plenty of doctors in Cuba will do it for half that much.

Quote:
... why do I have a $ 1,200 a month insurance?

It's your money. You tell me!
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post #1674 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

Plenty of doctors in Cuba will do it for half that much.



It's your money. You tell me!

I like first class treatment all the way.
It's hard to go to Cuba ya know....!
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post #1675 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

In the US, you don't go to the doctor when you have a stuffy nose because you can't go to the doctor when you have a stuffy nose. This is because the medical system in the US sucks. Even if you have insurance, it's either not worth paying the deductible or it's not worth the hit on your insurance premiums.

Exactly the reason I don't have insurance for such purposes. Insurance is for catastrophes, not stuffy noses, scraped knees, and other annoyances. Cash for services saves a physician's office lots of time and paperwork, and they know it.

If you were to invest your insurance premiums, plus your employer's contribution, it adds up to a lot of money every year - at least $10,000, perhaps twice as much. Invested in a health savings account, it could yield many hundreds of thousands by the time you become decrepit and need to draw upon it, and you could always elect to contribute more. The difference is that health insurance companies don't get to touch a dime. You can still shop around and negotiate for the best deal in triple bypass surgery too. It works with Lasik and cosmetic surgery - why? Insurance isn't usually involved.
Health savings accounts may be in jeopardy though, says HSA Consulting Services - a company started by the guy who wrote HSAs into law in 2003. The question depends how the HHS Secretary writes the final implementation of the law. See "czar", above.
Yes, the insurance situation "sucks", since it's a market neither doctors nor patients control, and lack of competition removes any incentive for the insurance market to become efficient. Obamacare's version of "reform" is to impose this broken system upon everyone. It's as if GM were going bankrupt, and the government saved it by forcing everyone to buy an Oldsmobile.

After the rise of HMOs some 25 or so years ago, the US public has become inured to paying $10 for every little thing. Doctors were essentially forced to accept HMO membership, or lose business. The result has been decreased income for doctors, which they've had to offset by getting more patients in the door each day, spending less time with each one, while ordering more lab tests to make up for their lack of time to diagnose illness. That's part of what has led us to the need for "reform", and exactly what I meant by "irresponsible". The $10 copay was never real - never intended to be. The result has been the creation of an insurance industry juggernaut, to the detriment of patients and doctors alike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

In the normal kind of country with a good medical system, you go to the doctor, pay $25 in cash, get your flu medicine and the security that your illness isn't something worse. The doctor profits from this enough to earn a living, so there's no harm to the medical system at all.

What normal kind of country would that be, tonton? HK? Sure, give me HK's personal and business tax policies any day. The resulting economic boom would lead us out of this recession for good, and we'll have lots left over for health insurance.

And what "medicine" would you propose to cure your influenza virus anyway?
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post #1676 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Weird, I had a stuffy nose, turns out I needed a $ 22,000.- surgery to remove polyps. I know I could have gone in using a fork and the bathroom mirror but why do I have a $ 1,200 a month insurance?

I'm sorry to hear that you had a more serious condition that required surgery. I'm also glad that you had insurance to cover this problem. That said, I think it's probably fairly safe to safe that nasal polyps are the exception rather than the rule with regard to the billion or so colds that Americans gets each year for which a primary symptom is a stuffed up and/or runny nose; and also that most people who do get nasal polyps are likely to be treatable with much less expensive non-surgical treatments. So your insurance was there for exactly what insurance is designed for: uncommon and infrequent but potentially expensive medical or surgical treatments.

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post #1677 of 2360
You guys are missing the point entirely. I can go to the doctor for a cold for US$25. The doctor treats me. The doctor makes enough profit to live happily. The doctor isn't subsidized by the government for my treatment. Insurance is not involved.

There should be nothing stopping a doctor in the US from doing the same thing, except that the free market system fucks the doctor for the cost of medicine, the cost of malpractice insurance, the cost of rent, the cost of labor, and the doctor really can't survive if they're not taking in at least US$300 per hour for their practice.
post #1678 of 2360
I think medicine is always added separately to a medical bill.
As for rent and labour, those are costs that every small business handles. And very few charge a minimum $300./hr.

Malpractice insurance is the domain of the Democrat-lovin' trial lawyers.
And that's where your problem with the American system is, not the free market.
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post #1679 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I can go to the doctor for a cold for US$25.

Commie!!! Why do you hate freedom?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #1680 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

More stupidity-

"Almost half of all private sector workers, 57 million, do not have a single paid sick day.

We looked at 22 affluent countries -- the 22 that are the top 22 ranked in terms of the human development index -- except for the United States, every single other one has some form of paid sick days or paid sick leave and the majority have both,"
"presenteeism" -- when sick workers show up for work instead of staying home -- costs the national economy $180 billion annually in lost productivity, or $225 per employee per year."
~ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_204937.html

BTW Trumptman, please don't take the title of this post personally. I just thought it made a good title and besides you believe in a public healthcare system for all, right?

Stop bitching you are lucky you have a job.
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