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The Biggest Threat to Obama's Health Care "Reform" - Reality - Page 49

post #1921 of 2277
2/20/12 at 8:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

What he means is to force all American doctors to accept only patients whose care is paid for through ObamaCare.

Like here in Canada.

No, actually, that's not at all what I mean. Not even close. For you to say that shows that you've ignored practically every post I've made on the subject.
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post #1922 of 2277
2/21/12 at 3:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

Take that Queen Nancy.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0811/61218.html

Would you buy insurance if you have no other coverage for your family?
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post #1923 of 2277
2/22/12 at 12:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

No, actually, that's not at all what I mean. Not even close. For you to say that shows that you've ignored practically every post I've made on the subject.

Then, perhaps you can explain how your solution addresses the issue of doctors dropping government-insured patients (e.g., medicare patients)?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1924 of 2277
2/22/12 at 5:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Punctuation. It's important.

Genius it is the concept i am trying to get across not the grammar!
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post #1925 of 2277
2/22/12 at 7:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

No, actually, that's not at all what I mean. Not even close. For you to say that shows that you've ignored practically every post I've made on the subject.

I apologize if I misrepresented your position. However most on the left (and virtually everyone on the left in Canada) tend to argue that a parallel private system serves only the rich, duplicates resources and steals labour from the government-sponsored health care side.

And thus, Canadians must go to the U.S. for treatment if the system fails them (I almost had to make the trip last month.) Our private system was outlawed years ago.

With your Secular-Humanist-in-Chief already dictating what kind of health care religious people must buy, certainly the U.S. won't be far behind, if ObamaCare remains law.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #1926 of 2277
2/22/12 at 10:44am
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

With your Secular-Humanist-in-Chief

Evidence?

Quote:
already dictating what kind of health care religious people must buy

Wrong, the compromise eliminated the need for religious institutions to pay for contraceptives--the insurance company just provides it at no additional cost. Insurance companies like that because contraception is WAY cheaper than pregnancy or abortion.

By the way, these rules have been around at both the federal and state level for over a decade now. Why suddenly the outrage? Oh wait, election year and conservatives knee-jerk to hate Obama.

Quote:
certainly the U.S. won't be far behind, if ObamaCare remains law.

The Affordable Care Act does nothing but EXTEND PRIVATIZATION. There's NO PUBLIC OPTION. What world are you living in?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #1927 of 2277
2/22/12 at 11:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Wrong, the compromise eliminated the need for religious institutions to pay for contraceptives--the insurance company just provides it at no additional cost.

So these are magic contraceptive pills that cost nothing to produce?

The 'compromise' is a typical Obama lie. Those of us living in the real world understand that we would still be subsidizing the production and distribution of those pills.

Forcing religious people to violate their consciences and work with companies that distribute products they abhor is still wrong any way to pretend to slice it.

The only upside on this is that Obama is incompetent enough to do with the Liberals have done in Canada - push more of the Catholic vote to the conservative side. At least the Liberals didn't have the precedent staring them in the face.

Evangelicals largely bailed on the Democrats a long time ago, while practicing Catholics still stayed despite the abortion industry's stranglehold on the Dems. Republicans see an opening that will open doors into the Catholic and Hispanic constituencies.

Why do you think a Catholic is suddenly the favourite to win the GOP nomination?

One side is playing chess, and the other checkers.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #1928 of 2277
2/22/12 at 11:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Then, perhaps you can explain how your solution addresses the issue of doctors dropping government-insured patients (e.g., medicare patients)?

Have a quota for civic duty. It's simple.
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post #1929 of 2277
2/22/12 at 11:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Have a quota for civic duty. It's simple.

So force doctors to take patients?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1930 of 2277
2/22/12 at 11:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

Genius it is the concept i am trying to get across not the grammar!

Respectfully, and with no offense meant -- grammar, spelling and punctuation all help to make the message more clear. They are important.
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post #1931 of 2277
2/22/12 at 11:35am
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

So these are magic contraceptive pills that cost nothing to produce?

The 'compromise' is a typical Obama lie. Those of us living in the real world understand that we would still be subsidizing the production and distribution of those pills.

Forcing religious people to violate their consciences and work with companies that distribute products they abhor is still wrong any way to pretend to slice it.

The only upside on this is that Obama is incompetent enough to do with the Liberals have done in Canada - push more of the Catholic vote to the conservative side. At least the Liberals didn't have the precedent staring them in the face.

Evangelicals largely bailed on the Democrats a long time ago, while practicing Catholics still stayed despite the abortion industry's stranglehold on the Dems. Republicans see an opening that will open doors into the Catholic and Hispanic constituencies.

Why do you think a Catholic is suddenly the favourite to win the GOP nomination?

One side is playing chess, and the other checkers.

Let's try this again.


By the way, these rules have been around at both the federal and state level for over a decade now. Why suddenly the outrage? Oh wait, election year and conservatives knee-jerk to hate Obama.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #1932 of 2277
2/22/12 at 11:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

So force doctors to take patients?

We force doctors to do lots of things. We force them to maintain certification, we force them to get malpractice insurance, we force them to drive on the right side of the road.

By requiring civic duty as a percentage of a doctor's patient quota we can eliminate health care bias against the poor.

Doctors in the US are NOT underpaid. They can give a little back.

It's the same thing we do in the legal profession, and we don't see lawyers bitching and moaning about it. They still make millions, and doctors will still make millions.

Look at it like House MD. He doesn't want to do those clinic hours, but they do provide plenty of entertainment!
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post #1933 of 2277
2/22/12 at 11:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

We force doctors to do lots of things. We force them to maintain certification, we force them to get malpractice insurance, we force them to drive on the right side of the road.

By requiring civic duty as a percentage of a doctor's patient quota we can eliminate health care bias against the poor.

That's a long-winded way to say "yes."

More signs of the left's creeping socialism and totalitarianism.

BTW, I'm sure your long-winded answer was intended to distract from the fact that you said this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton

No, actually, that's not at all what I mean. Not even close. For you to say that shows that you've ignored practically every post I've made on the subject.

In response to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777

What he means is to force all American doctors to accept only patients whose care is paid for through ObamaCare.

I think you owe Frank777 an apology.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Doctors in the US are NOT underpaid. They can give a little back.

I love it when liberals tell us how much someone else able to "give back."




P.S. You reasoning for forcing someone to do X because "we" already force them to do Y is exactly the kind of slippery slope that people who advocate liberty are concerned with.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1934 of 2277
2/22/12 at 12:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

That's a long-winded way to say "yes."

More signs of the left's creeping socialism and totalitarianism.

BTW, I'm sure your long-winded answer was intended to distract from the fact that you said this:



In response to this:



I think you owe Frank777 an apology.




I love it when liberals tell us how much someone else able to "give back."




P.S. You reasoning for forcing someone to do X because "we" already force them to do Y is exactly the kind of slippery slope that people who advocate liberty are concerned with.

Read Frank's statement again. Then give me an apology.

In case you didn't get it yet... you see that little word "only" in there? It makes a hell of a lot of difference, don'tcha think?
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post #1935 of 2277
2/22/12 at 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Read Frank's statement again. Then give me an apology.

In case you didn't get it yet... you see that little word "only" in there? It makes a hell of a lot of difference, don'tcha think?

Ahh...yes. You are correct. You wouldn't force them to only take Obamacare patients. I was wrong. I apologize.

However...back to my original point...you would force them to take Obamacare patients. That you would force them to take any patients is my concern.

What do you imagine some of the unintended consequences of your coercion might be?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1936 of 2277
2/22/12 at 12:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Ahh...yes. You are correct. You wouldn't force them to only take Obamacare patients. I was wrong. I apologize.

However...back to my original point...you would force them to take Obamacare patients. That you would force them to take any patients is my concern.

What do you imagine some of the unintended consequences of your coercion might be?

That the medical profession would end up similar to the legal profession?

DOOM, I tell you!
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post #1937 of 2277
2/22/12 at 12:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

That the medical profession would end up similar to the legal profession?

DOOM, I tell you!

You don't think there would be any negative* unintended consequences of your coercion?

*Well, besides the one you mentioned.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1938 of 2277
2/22/12 at 12:29pm
I'm curious tonton: under what circumstances is the use of violent force against peaceful people good and legitimate?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #1939 of 2277
2/22/12 at 12:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I'm curious tonton: under what circumstances is the use of violent force against peaceful people good and legitimate?

It seems just about anytime tonton thinks someone isn't doing what he thinks they should.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1940 of 2277
2/22/12 at 12:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

You don't think there would be any negative* unintended consequences of your coercion?

Sure there would be. No doubt about it. Some of them we can predict.

But those would be FAR outweighed by the benefits. You can see it in the countries that have such a system. The poor and middle class get pretty good health care, and the rich can pay for better care. Doctors still make a living, as do insurers. It's a system that's in practice and it's a system that is proven to work.

Some more ideas:

Duty practice could be reduced with tenure, and adjusted for specialty. New doctors would need to take mostly public sector patients, while more experienced doctors could take more private sector patients.

Shortage of physicians? Allow more imported doctors, and subsidize med school. Yes, it's an expense, but it's a small cost compared with the wonderful prospect of universal coverage.
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post #1941 of 2277
2/22/12 at 12:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I'm curious tonton: under what circumstances is the use of violent force against peaceful people good and legitimate?

No force is necessary. Has violent force EVER been used against lawyers who prefer not to take public cases? Then please stop with the bullshit.
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post #1942 of 2277
2/22/12 at 12:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Sure there would be. No doubt about it. Some of them we can predict.

But those would be FAR outweighed by the benefits.

As you speculate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You can see it in the countries that have such a system. The poor and middle class get pretty good health care, and the rich can pay for better care. Doctors still make a living, as do insurers.

I'm guessing there are hidden costs that you're either ignoring or unaware of.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

It's a system that's in practice and it's a system that is proven to work.

Actually that's not proven at all. There are serious long-term cracks in the systems you speak of.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Some more ideas:

Duty practice could be reduced with tenure, and adjusted for specialty. New doctors would need to take mostly public sector patients, while more experienced doctors could take more private sector patients.

Shortage of physicians? Allow more imported doctors, and subsidize med school. Yes, it's an expense, but it's a small cost compared with the wonderful prospect of universal coverage.

You are a control freak aren't you. You just can't or won't let the market work here. \

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1943 of 2277
2/22/12 at 12:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

No force is necessary.

Then good! If you need not use force, then we can assume you won't use it! Great!

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1944 of 2277
2/22/12 at 12:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

You are a control freak aren't you.

Rules and regulations are effective in management. I can only imagine how you must have been in Kindergarten.

"But Mrs. Jones, I WANT to talk in class. It's my First Amendment right! You can't use force against me! I don't WANT to take a nap. I want to play with the toys NOW! I brought my Tonka truck and it's my property! I have the RIGHT to play with it whenever I want!!!! WAAAAAAAH!!!!"

Oh, I forgot. you were home schooled. That actually explains a lot.
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post #1945 of 2277
2/22/12 at 12:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I can only imagine how you must have been in Kindergarten.

I can only imagine what you would be like if you had any real power.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

"But Mrs. Jones, I WANT to talk in class. It's my First Amendment right! You can't use force against me! I don't WANT to take a nap. I want to play with the toys NOW! I brought my Tonka truck and it's my property! I have the RIGHT to play with it whenever I want!!!! WAAAAAAAH!!!!"

I find it amusing that you would use an institution of coercion to somehow make your point. Whatever point that is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Oh, I forgot. you were home schooled.

Actually, I wasn't. I don't know where you got that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

That actually explains a lot.

It does? Like what?


But then none of this does anything to diminish or hide your obvious control-freak tendencies.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1946 of 2277
2/22/12 at 12:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

No force is necessary. Has violent force EVER been used against lawyers who prefer not to take public cases? Then please stop with the bullshit.

What would be the consequences if a doctor refuses to take Obamacare patients?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #1947 of 2277
2/22/12 at 12:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

What would be the consequences if a doctor refuses to take Obamacare patients?

The same as the consequences if a lawyer refuses to take a public defense case.

And I don't know where you get off on calling public cases Obamacare cases. As BR pointed out, there is no public option in the Affordable Care Act. The doctors would be dealing with the insurers. Did you mean Medicare patients?
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post #1948 of 2277
2/22/12 at 12:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

The same as the consequences if a lawyer refuses to take a public defense case.

\ Stop beating around the bush. What are those consequences?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1949 of 2277
2/22/12 at 1:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

\ Stop beating around the bush. What are those consequences?

Are you daft? THE SAME AS IN THE LEGAL PROFESSION. You know what that is, unless you're retarded.

1. Warning.
2. Censure.
3. Loss of license to practice.

Does this arrangement work in law? Why wouldn't it work in medicine? Is there any "use of force" involved?
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post #1950 of 2277
2/22/12 at 1:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Are you daft? THE SAME AS IN THE LEGAL PROFESSION. You know what that is, unless you're retarded.

1. Warning.
2. Censure.
3. Loss of license to practice.

Actually I didn't know those because I'm not an expert on the law profession so keep your insults to yourself.

So, if they don't do what the state says, the state will revoke their license for their profession and the right to earn a living in the profession they trained for.

Got it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Is there any "use of force" involved?

What happens if they refuse to stop practicing law?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1951 of 2277
2/22/12 at 1:03pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Yes yes you don't believe in the Social Contract. We get it. That's what this boils down to as usual. It's like everyone on this board except you and Jazz are working out math problems when all of a sudden you two jump in with "YEAH, WELL, I DON'T BELIEVE IN NUMBERS." Great. If that's what you really believe, you aren't useful at all in the conversation.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #1952 of 2277
2/22/12 at 1:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Yes yes you don't believe in the Social Contract. We get it. That's what this boils down to as usual.

Hi BR. So good to see you. How are you doing? Still hating on people and stewing in your bitterness and anger at the world?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1953 of 2277
2/22/12 at 1:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

What happens if they refuse to stop practicing law?

You tell me. Show me a case where that's happened.

What happens if you refuse to stop parking in a handicapped spot? What happens if you refuse to pay the fine? What happens if you refuse to stop driving once your license is revoked?

Guess what, we don't know what happens to you when that happens because you don't do it.

Rules are rules and they are not evil.
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post #1954 of 2277
2/22/12 at 1:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You tell me. Show me a case where that's happened.

You're avoiding the question.

A person who has trained and worked peacefully in a profession, insists on continuing to practice this profession despite the state saying he or she doesn't have permission.

What happens next?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1955 of 2277
2/22/12 at 1:13pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Laws bad. Violence.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #1956 of 2277
2/22/12 at 1:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

You're avoiding the question.

A person who has trained and worked peacefully in a profession, insists on continuing to practice this profession despite the state saying he or she doesn't have permission.

What happens next?

The person gives in and takes public cases. End of story.

Your hypotheticals make just as much sense as asking what would happen if the sky wasn't blue.
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post #1957 of 2277
2/22/12 at 1:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

The person gives in and takes public cases. End of story.

Ummm...no. They don't. They refuse to take the public cases and they insist on peacefully continuing to practice their profession.

What happens next?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1958 of 2277
2/22/12 at 1:17pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
I don't like the idea of LAWS. Because LAWS require ENFORCEMENT! VIOLENCE IS MY TRUMP CARD! LET ME PLAY MY TRUMP CARD!!! I'M SQUIRMING SO BADLY AND I CAN'T CONTAIN MY EXCITEMENT TO PLAY MY VIOLENCE TRUMP CARD!!!

OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG LET ME PLAY IT!

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #1959 of 2277
2/22/12 at 1:19pm
Well at least BR is willing to admit that ultimately the state is using the threat of violence to enforce its edicts.

So we return to the question:

Under what circumstances is the use of violent force against peaceful people good and legitimate?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1960 of 2277
2/22/12 at 1:24pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
No, I admit that is what you THINK is your trump card. Except we aren't playing the same game. We're playing hearts and you knock over the table screaming, "FISH OUT OF WATER! FISH OUT OF WATER! I WIN!" We all tell you to stop coming to our game night.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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