or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › The Biggest Threat to Obama's Health Care "Reform" - Reality
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

The Biggest Threat to Obama's Health Care "Reform" - Reality - Page 6

post #201 of 2360
You mean people are upset about Obama's policies? Enough to protest? Impossible.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #202 of 2360
THE UNITED STAETS IS SELF-EXTERMINATING!!!aynrandwasacrackwhore!!!!!!1!!

Yes, Americans have decided that all their liberty isn't enough. They just want to die and leave the planet to all the European muslims.
post #203 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

I am once again ashamed of my country of birth.

Yet another disrupted meeting, this one with a scuffle or two. The protesters said they were encouraged by a local conservative group supported by Glen Beck. Some had signs showing the picture that shows Obama painted like the Joker.

This is really getting childish.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_253478.html

The link has video of the protestors.

Someone should stop those community organizers! Shut down that free speech!

I guess these things are only wrong when the right does it?
post #204 of 2360
Thread Starter 
Better yet, when you look at who was arrested instead of reading the HuffPo propaganda and insinuation edition, it was a bunch of liberal rent-a-thugs who were arrested.

Don't worry though because I'm sure it was just the police acting "stupidly."

[CENTER][/CENTER]

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #205 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

I am once again ashamed of my country of birth.

Yet another disrupted meeting, this one with a scuffle or two. The protesters said they were encouraged by a local conservative group supported by Glen Beck. Some had signs showing the picture that shows Obama painted like the Joker.

This is really getting childish.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_253478.html

The link has video of the protestors.

Getting In Their Faces For A Change

Quote:
The candidate who told his supporters "to argue with them and get in their face" now finds the shoe on the other foot. So they're taking names and encouraging you to turn in your neighbors.

So this is hope and change telling American citizens who in a democracy disagree with you that they are mind-numbed robots participating in mob action and expressing "manufactured" outrage.

Considering that upward of 80% of those hooligans like their doctors, like their insurance and like their care, anger over your government-run health care was not that hard to assemble.

It was not that long ago that Barack Obama told a crowd of 1,500 supporters in Elko, Nev., to challenge those who disagree with them and him: "I want you to go out and talk to your friends and talk to your neighbors. I want you to talk to them whether they are independents or Republicans. I want you to argue with them."

President Obama spoke then as the community organizer he was a true disciple of Saul Alinsky who worked with and for Acorn in the days when they were storming banks and government meetings to force them to ditch creditworthiness as a criteria and forcing them to issue loans to those who couldn't afford them.

The president is familiar with the Alinsky way, the Chicago way, of organizing a group to act. Obama spent years prodding underprivileged Chicagoans to channel their political anger by orchestrating activist mob scenes designed to coerce businesses and public officials. A 2007 profile in the left-leaning New Republic was titled "The Agitator." He's still at it.

The community organizer is trying to organize America in his image, but the American people are more than scared bankers and groveling politicians. They are the descendants of the original tea partiers who threw the teas in Boston Harbor. That Tea Party protested taxation without representation. Their descendants are protesting the taxation they are getting with it.

Obama cut his political teeth as a community organizer with Acorn, the group that buses people all wearing the same red shirts and all carrying the same union-printed signs to the homes of AIG executives and their families and anyone else they want to intimidate. Brown shirts would be more appropriate.

The modern-day tea partiers and those opposing government-run health care carry kids on their shoulders and wave signs they've hand-painted on their living room floors to protest the mortgaging of their future and the bankrupting of their country. According to the Democrats, these people are dangerous and need to be watched.

Democrats once warned about privacy and the shredding of the Constitution when President George W. Bush sought to monitor the communications between foreign terrorists and their American contacts.

They have no objection to the administration openly asking citizens to report rumors, casual conversations and the contents of e-mails to the government. The White House Web site brazenly asks: "If you get an e-mail or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy send it to flag@whitehouse.gov."

They say they merely want to correct the record, but we see an enemies list being compiled by a government seeking to nationalize and control everything from car dealers to emergency rooms. What are the name-gatherers going to do? Dispatch the red shirts of Acorn?

"I can only imagine the level of justifiable outrage had your predecessor asked Americans to forward e-mails critical of his policies to the White House," Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, said in a letter to President Obama. "As Congress debates health care reform and other critical policy matters, citizen engagement must not be chilled by the government monitoring the exercise of their speech rights." So where is the ACLU, anyway?

The American people have always valued their freedom and their liberty. They see it disappearing under a battalion of unelected and unaccountable czars. They're as mad as hell and aren't about to take it anymore. Power to the people.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #206 of 2360
Thread Starter 


Be afraid of those who question. Report the fishy ones to the fishers.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #207 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

In some of these Evil Socialist States, a woman can get a year off from work to have a child and the father can get several weeks. Paid, of course.

Just a little, simple research will show the US is lagging far, far behind. Check out countries like Sweden:
"Sweden is one country which provides generous parental leave: all working parents are entitled to 16 months paid leave per child, the cost being shared between employer and State."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave#Europe

Who pays for these benefits?
post #208 of 2360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

In some of these Evil Socialist States, a woman can get a year off from work to have a child and the father can get several weeks. Paid, of course.

Just a little, simple research will show the US is lagging far, far behind. Check out countries like Sweden:
"Sweden is one country which provides generous parental leave: all working parents are entitled to 16 months paid leave per child, the cost being shared between employer and State."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave#Europe

The zeros listed under the US really stand out.

USA Today from 2005
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/...ty-leave_x.htm

Life expectancy is also interesting: the US ranks 45th:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ife_expectancy

But they are Evil Countries and not up to the standards of the Party of Family Values.

You know what stands out? How desperate the governments in those countries are to be the solution to the problem they have created. Why don't you look at the birthrate in Sweden for example to see who is taking advantage of those wonderful benefits. Why don't you read up on how they were created to help counter the pathetic birthrate within all these countries.

Sweden's birthrate is 1.75 per couple. Replacement rate is 2.1. They're giving away money today in hopes they'll have someone in the future to tax.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #209 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

You know what stands out? How desperate the governments in those countries are to be the solution to the problem they have created. Why don't you look at the birthrate in Sweden for example to see who is taking advantage of those wonderful benefits. Why don't you read up on how they were created to help counter the pathetic birthrate within all these countries.

Sweden's birthrate is 1.75 per couple. Replacement rate is 2.1. They're giving away money today in hopes they'll have someone in the future to tax.

What does birthrate have to do with anything?
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
Reply
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
Reply
post #210 of 2360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

What does birthrate have to do with anything?

The "benefit" was pointed out to show how enlightened the government happens to be without noting the whole context. The government has resorted to basically paying people to have kids in Europe because the birthrate is so low that they will have no one to tax in the future.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #211 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

The "benefit" was pointed out to show how enlightened the government happens to be without noting the whole context. The government has resorted to basically paying people to have kids in Europe because the birthrate is so low that they will have no one to tax in the future.

uh, still not seeing a problem with the actions of the government or the social development that has gotten them there...

perhaps you have an issue with a government stepping in to encourage certain types of behavior? after all, we all admit that governments have a profound effect on the actions of its citizenry (loosely defined), and if social development leads to a slower reproductive rate than maintenance of economic output requires then the government can use its power to counter those effects. we have similar tax breaks in the US for families with dependents, but i don't hear you reviling them...
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
Reply
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
Reply
post #212 of 2360
Fear.

What is wrong with trying to take care of other people? Isn't it the Christian thing to do? When I was young and was dragged to church, I never heard anything about everyone being out for themselves. I heard a lot about community. Doing to/for others as you would have them do for you. Love thy neighbor. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Now we have lots of Goppers who cling to God and Jesus whenever they let their fly fly down in Argentina and other places - "God will make me better" sort of thing - yet they are dead set on not trying to help other people and trying to undermine the POTUS simply because he is black.

And yeah, I'm from the South. It's that simple.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #213 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

What is wrong with trying to take care of other people?

Nothing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Isn't it the Christian thing to do?

Yes.


What does this have to do with a government takeover of the health care system?

P.S. I've asked a couple of times and you didn't answer. Perhaps you missed those posts. But I'm curious who pays for the generous time off benefits you mentioned exist in other countries?
post #214 of 2360
32% Favor Single-Payer Health Care, 57% Oppose

Quote:
Thirty-two percent (32%) of voters nationwide favor a single-payer health care system where the federal government provides coverage for everyone. A Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 57% are opposed to a single-payer plan.

Fifty-two percent (52%) believe such a system would lead to a lower quality of care while 13% believe care would improve. Twenty-seven percent (27%) think that the quality of care would remain about the same.

Forty-five percent (45%) also say a single-payer system would lead to higher health care costs while 24% think lower costs would result. Nineteen percent (19%) think prices would remain about the same.

Obama and the Democrats are losing this battle. And they only have themselves and their policies to blame this time. Of course they're trying to place the blame anywhere else but where it belongs.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #215 of 2360
Thread Starter 
If this were a Bush gaffe, the media and late night would be all over it.

Dear President Obama,

Your analogy explains perfectly why Americans do not want their government to be the head that controls the body of private health nor is it a viable option itself.

Bias is at work again. If Bush used an analogy that showed pefectly why war was wrong, the media would reply it continiously until we bled out our eye sockets.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #216 of 2360
Quote:
Obama and the Democrats are losing this battle.

The battle for single-payer? I'm thinking part of the reason they aren't winning that battle is that they aren't fighting it.
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #217 of 2360
I bolded some that perturb me more than the rest...

http://www.naturalnews.com/026733_he...ealthcare.html

Quote:
What's really in Obama's health care reform bill? Almost no one knows, and here's why: It's 1,017 pages long and written in an alien form of bureaucratic English that can barely be decoded by earthlings.

And yet, astonishingly, a U.S. Army translator has been found who speaks "Washington Doublespeak" and he was kind enough to decode the bill and post his plain-language findings over at FreeRepublic.com (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f...).

Below, we reprint what he found in the health care reform bill. As you read this, keep in mind that some of these translations are a bit loose with the interpretations, but I've personally spot-checked these points, and they are indeed all contained in the bill in one form or another (shrouded in Doublespeak language, of course).

Editor's note: I don't personally agree with every interpretation listed here, and some of the bill's provisions are actually good ideas (like banning doctors from owning stock in health care companies). But overall, this interpretation points out many alarming provisions in the proposed health care reform bill...

From CMS at FreeRepublic.com:

Page 16: States that if you have insurance at the time of the bill becoming law and change, you will be required to take a similar plan. If that is not available, you will be required to take the government option!
Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!
Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!
Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.
Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.

Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (example: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)
Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange. (Not a problem right?)
Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans) (Whoops! Problem...)

Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens
Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.
Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.
Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.
Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.
Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll
Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll

Anything in there look a bit off? That is not the whole bill, but hey, good start....
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #218 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

If this were a Bush gaffe, the media and late night would be all over it.

Dear President Obama,

Your analogy explains perfectly why Americans do not want their government to be the head that controls the body of private health nor is it a viable option itself.

Bias is at work again. If Bush used an analogy that showed pefectly why war was wrong, the media would reply it continiously until we bled out our eye sockets.

Wow, I cannot believe he said what he did. Inspires a great amount of confidence...

Anyone recall years ago when the USPS tried to shut down or block either UPS, FedEX or both because they were eating it's lunch... I cannot find a link but I remember it. Something about a private company not being able to legally move mail because only the USPS can do so.

Google is failing me....
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #219 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

I bolded some that perturb me more than the rest...

http://www.naturalnews.com/026733_he...ealthcare.html



Anything in there look a bit off? That is not the whole bill, but hey, good start....

Some missing parts from the actual FreeRepublic page.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2300451/posts

Again Problems are bolded for what I like least...

Quote:
• Page 167: Any individual who doesnt' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
• Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
• Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.

• Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that. <--(This just annoys the heck out of me)
• Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected."
• Page 241: Doctors: no matter what speciality you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)
• Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc.
• Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.
• Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.
• Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!
• Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.
• Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
• Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies!
• Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.
• Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.
• Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.
• Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.
• Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.
• Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone).
• Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?
• Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.
• Page 425: Goverment provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.
• Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
• Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
• Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.

• Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage.
• Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.

Most of these just stick in my craw.

Appears to be the source link for this info:
http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com...acre-bill.html

And the link to the bill for those who have problems sleeping at night, or want to have problems sleeping at night after reading it...
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...=f:h3200ih.pdf

These People are disagreeing with the interpretations:
http://pleasecutthecrap.typepad.com/...alth-bill.html
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #220 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Some missing parts from the actual FreeRepublic page.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2300451/posts

Again Problems are bolded for what I like least...



Most of these just stick in my craw.

Appears to be the source link for this info:
http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com...acre-bill.html

And the link to the bill for those who have problems sleeping at night, or want to have problems sleeping at night after reading it...
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...=f:h3200ih.pdf

These People are disagreeing with the interpretations:
http://pleasecutthecrap.typepad.com/...alth-bill.html

That Cut the Crap guy is on a roll...

http://pleasecutthecrap.typepad.com/...illpartii.html

Against this:
http://www.lc.org/media/9980/attachm...ama_072909.pdf

This bill is going to implode...

He is as reactionary or moreso than the people he attempts to debunk.

From what I can see, this bill is scary to say the least. And in reading, hard to stay awake at all. It needs to be boiled down to a what is being provided for and what is not. How much is covered, and how much is not. Forget the legalese and doublespeak. Make it plain so anyone can read it and understand.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #221 of 2360
I find it shocking that you just get an e-mail forward and take it as true and then move on from there.

Fucking shocking.

It's like you are screaming, "I DON'T WANT TO RESEARCH AND THINK FOR MYSELF!" and hoping someone comes and gives you an easy-to-swallow pill.

That list is a bunch of fabricated nonsense or wild misrepresentation.
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #222 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

That list is a bunch of fabricated nonsense or wild misrepresentation.

groverat, would you object to the characterization of the plan as being an attempt by government to control the health care of the entire nation?
post #223 of 2360
Quote:
groverat, would you object to the characterization of the plan as being an attempt by government to control the health care of the entire nation?

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "control". If by "control" you mean "make all decisions", then clearly that is not the case. If by "control" you mean "provide some basic regulations in an attempt to ensure access and quality", then I wouldn't object to it.

In the lack of context and specificity when using words like "control" is where we find the hysteria and fear-mongering. Hysteria that leads someone to read a bullshit e-mail forward and take it as gospel.
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #224 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "control". If by "control" you mean "make all decisions", then clearly that is not the case. If by "control" you mean "provide some basic regulations in an attempt to ensure access and quality", then I wouldn't object to it.

In the lack of context and specificity when using words like "control" is where we find the hysteria and fear-mongering. Hysteria that leads someone to read a bullshit e-mail forward and take it as gospel.

I use "control" when referring to ... well, control. The government will reserve the right to make the decisions about health care, and remove the right for private industry to decide what it will and will not provide.

Government will decide what the medical profession will be able to charge, and what drug companies will be able to charge, since it will assume the role of the largest customer. It'll be the 800 lb. gorilla that can't be ignored...which is typically how government controls things.

Is this characterization accepted?
post #225 of 2360
I personally don't care what details are in the proposed plan because unless it's a full-on deregulation of the health insurance and medical markets including the privatization of medicare and medicaid, then it isn't a reform that will accomplish what every who supports it thinks it will. Further if it includes a massive new level of government controls and spending (on top of the existing massive amount of government controls and spending) to "fix" the problems caused by the current government interventions into these areas, then it will be a disaster.
post #226 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

I find it shocking that you just get an e-mail forward and take it as true and then move on from there.

Fucking shocking.

It's like you are screaming, "I DON'T WANT TO RESEARCH AND THINK FOR MYSELF!" and hoping someone comes and gives you an easy-to-swallow pill.

That list is a bunch of fabricated nonsense or wild misrepresentation.

I find it shocking that you think this was an email forward I received. Where do you get that from any of my messages? I am doing research, none of this popped into my inbox. Both sides of the story are represented in those links as well as the actual freaking link to the bill itself. What more would you like to see? My stating of the fact that this should not be so hard to find information that is understandable by a layperson irritates you so much, why?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #227 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

The battle for single-payer? I'm thinking part of the reason they aren't winning that battle is that they aren't fighting it.

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/1...of-the-day-95/

^^WRONG.^^

Our president has stated repreatedly that he favors a single-payer system.

The ultimate goal of the Democrat establishment is a single-payer system. It has been for quite some time.

Even if the current proposed bill doesn't establish a "true" single-payer system, it will open the door for one. The problems created by this bill, if passed, will then be exploited by the Democrats as an excuse to move to a "true" single-payer system in order to "fix" the problems that they created in the first place.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #228 of 2360
Some links for the republicans.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck/
http://www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck/faq#

Rebuttal for the so called analysis of the document.

http://healthcareforamericanow.org/s...nsurance_plans

See my sig.
Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
Reply
Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
Reply
post #229 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by talksense101 View Post

Some links for the republicans.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck/
http://www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck/faq#

Rebuttal for the so called analysis of the document.

http://healthcareforamericanow.org/s...nsurance_plans

See my sig.

Do you have unquestioning faith in all administrations, or just this one?

Ever hear the story about the "Camel's Nose In The Tent"?

Quote:
We currently spend more than $2 trillion dollars a year on health care. Health insurance reform will make a short-term investment of roughly $100 billion a year to lower costs and relieve the crushing financial burden that is eating into family budgets, forcing families into bankruptcy, making it hard for businesses to expand and grow, and preventing the government from using your tax dollars to create jobs, improve education, rebuild our infrastructure. Health insurance reform would be fully paid for over 10 years, and it would not add one penny to the deficit.

So, increase the cost $100 billion and that will lower costs?

They don't freaking publish any other info than that and you consider it a rebuttal?

I can save $2 trillion. Drop government influences in health care all together. Let the industry deal without government subsidies for entitlement programs and the costs will come down to what people can afford or people won't pay and the industry won't make a dime.
post #230 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Do you have unquestioning faith in all administrations, or just this one?

Ever hear the story about the "Camel's Nose In The Tent"?

I don't have faith in any system or government. I do firmly believe that any form of healthcare is better than the fiasco you have in the USA today. Perhaps you should read through the concerns raised by the WHO in their 2008 report quoted below. The full report is quite interesting.

http://www.who.int/whr/2008/en/

Quote:
Five common shortcomings of health-care delivery

Inverse care. People with the most means whose needs for health care are often less consume the most care, whereas those with the least means and greatest health problems consume the least. Public spending on health services most often benefi ts the rich more than the poor in high- and lowincome countries alike.

Impoverishing care. Wherever people lack social protection and payment for care is largely out-of-pocket at the point of service, they can be confronted with catastrophic expenses. Over 100 million people annually fall into poverty because they have to pay for health care.

Fragmented and fragmenting care. The excessive specialization of health-care providers and the narrow focus of many disease control programmes discourage a holistic approach to the individuals and the families they deal with and do not appreciate the need for continuity in care. Health services for poor and marginalized groups are often highly fragmented and severely under-resourced, while development aid often adds to the fragmentation.

Unsafe care. Poor system design that is unable to ensure safetyand hygiene standards leads to high rates of hospital-acquired infections, along with medication errors and other avoidable adverse effects that are an underestimated cause of death and ill-health.

Misdirected care. Resource allocation clusters around curativeservices at great cost, neglecting the potential of primary prevention and health promotion to prevent up to 70% of the disease burden. At the same time, the health sector lacks the expertise to mitigate the adverse effects on health from other sectors and make the most of what these other sectors can contribute to health.

Are we always expected to salute our corporate overlords and have faith in them? Why is the public resistant to change? If the new policies make things worse (like it can get worse...), give it the duration it needs and change it again. If Obama fucks over America, he will get his due and wont last his term. It is not like the entire democratic party is from Kenya / Adolf Hitler / the Joker / <insert half-assed reference here>.
Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
Reply
Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
Reply
post #231 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by talksense101 View Post

I don't have faith in any system or government.

So you should be 100% opposed to the current health care "reform" proposals.


Quote:
Originally Posted by talksense101 View Post

I do firmly believe that any form of healthcare is better than the fiasco you have in the USA today.

I'd say that "fiasco" is a bit harsh (and untrue). But to the extent that it is flawed, damaged and failing, it is the result of the past and current government actions in this area.


Quote:
Originally Posted by talksense101 View Post

Are we always expected to salute our corporate overlords and have faith in them?

The only way we truly have corporate "overlords" is when they are in fact in partnership with our government overlords.


Quote:
Originally Posted by talksense101 View Post

Why is the public resistant to change?

I don't believe the public is resistant to change, but I do believe they are resistant to change that they (correctly) perceive will makes things worse.


Quote:
Originally Posted by talksense101 View Post

If the new policies make things worse (like it can get worse...),

Not "if" but "when". And yes, it can get much worse.
post #232 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by talksense101 View Post

Why is the public resistant to change? If the new policies make things worse (like it can get worse...), give it the duration it needs and change it again.

The seed of the answer is in the question...

Resistance to change is why there is a problem in the first place. Medical costs, artificially influenced by the government programs like medicare and medicade, are outrageously high. The solution to that problem is political suicide, however. People would resist having less coverage after having contributed their "entire lives", because the program was created and advertised as a RIGHT. It wasn't a tax on those that could afford it to assist those that couldn't, it's a program designed to make every person dependent on government. The cost? $8,000.00 taken from every taxpayer, every year, added to the $5,000.00 cost of their own health care plan. That's $13,000.00 for every taxpayer, per year, for health care. Already, over 60% of the cost of health care for every taxpayer is to cover someone else.

So, today you have folks who don't have the need feeding at the same trough as those that do need. People with means submitting their bills and having them paid for by the government.

Instead of lowering expectations, government proposes a solution where they control the entire medical industry. You can't increase the subscribership by 46 million, keep current care standards the same, and lower costs without being totally in control. It's impossible.
post #233 of 2360
The Whole Foods Alternative to ObamaCare

^^Fantastic op-ed piece by the CEO of Whole Foods. Offers some good suggestions for responsible health care reform, as well as insights such as this:

Quote:
At Whole Foods we allow our team members to vote on what benefits they most want the company to fund. Our Canadian and British employees express their benefit preferences very clearly—they want supplemental health-care dollars that they can control and spend themselves without permission from their governments. Why would they want such additional health-care benefit dollars if they already have an "intrinsic right to health care"? The answer is clear—no such right truly exists in either Canada or the U.K.—or in any other country.

Read the entire piece. It's good.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #234 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

The Whole Foods Alternative to ObamaCare

^^Fantastic op-ed piece by the CEO of Whole Foods. Offers some good suggestions for responsible health care reform, as well as insights such as this:



Read the entire piece. It's good.

Good suggestions.

The only one's I disagree with were the "revise tax forms to make it easier for individuals to make a voluntary, tax-deductible donation..." whil I'm all in favor of simplifying the tax code (and correspondingly the forms)...I don't even know if this is a required reform per se. I mean If someone wishes to setup one (or a 1000) non-profit insurance or medical charities it seems you should be able to donate to these like any other non-profit today. So that doesn't seem necessary.

Second is medicare and medicaid. These simply need to be abolished and if there is a need to support these people they could be supported by straight premium subsidies for private insurance plans. While I would like to eventually eliminate that (and with greater competition that results in better quality with lower prices...the need for subsidies should diminish).

The availability of this simple idea (subsidization people's insurance premiums) should demonstrate the reason for skepticism and cynicism toward the proposed plans which go much further with "public options" and all that. It hints at the true desire to control.

For the few million people (it ain't 47 million) that cannot afford the premiums, subsidize them to buy their own plans. But this needs to go along with further deregulation to enable more competition all around to drive down prices and improve quality.
post #235 of 2360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

The Whole Foods Alternative to ObamaCare

^^Fantastic op-ed piece by the CEO of Whole Foods. Offers some good suggestions for responsible health care reform, as well as insights such as this:



Read the entire piece. It's good.

That piece is a fantastic find and highlights the advantages of health savings plans along with true insurance for large health issues. A lot of real problem can be addressed when the aim isn't utopia but reality with a variety of trade-offs that each person gets to make for themselves.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #236 of 2360
"History does not repeat itself, but it does rhyme." - Mark Twain

Ronald Reagan Speaks Out Against Socialized Medicine

He's right, you know. These gradual encroachments of government on individual liberties are merely stepping-stones in the overall plan to bring this country under absolute socialism.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #237 of 2360
Grassley supported the "death panel" (as he's sorta calling it now) clause several years ago... for it before he was against it... SOP for the GOP?

http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009...-death-panels/

Poor GOP.. they just can't seem to make up their minds...


This is interesting, too:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_260027.html

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #238 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

This is interesting, too:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_260027.html

Poor GOP.. they just can't seem to make up their minds...

I don't get your point. You seem to be decrying the fact that people who supported the prolonging of Terri Schiavo's life are now against having the government pressure seniors into ending their lives prematurely.

What's so inconsistent about that?
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
post #239 of 2360
Glen Beck thinks that America's health care system is the best.

But he didn't think that just a year ago...

Jon Stewart has some Beck videos showing the hypocrisy:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/th...ck-s-operation

---

And the GOP's Culberson gets destroyed over Medicare:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_260177.html

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #240 of 2360
This letter sent to the New York Times summarizes at least one valid reason for caution and concern about all of the rosy claims and the dismissal of the "fear mongering" going on:

http://www.businessandmedia.org/arti...814160654.aspx

Quote:
Editor, The New York Times
620 Eighth Avenue
New York, NY 10018
To the Editor:

Paul Krugman believes that only irrational right-wing ideologues - along with paid agents of a mysterious cabal of sinister billionaires - could possibly worry that Obamacare threatens ordinary Americans' freedoms, finances, and health ("Republican Death Trip," Aug. 14).

But while many Obamacare opponents might misstate some details of the proposed 'reform,' it's quite appropriate to worry about unintended ill consequences - especially when reform as massive as Obamacare is in the works.

Examples are legion. Here's one: opponents of the federal income-tax openly worried a century ago that such a tax would unleash an intrusive bureaucracy. As Richard Byrd - then-speaker of the Virginia House of Delegates - expressed it, "A hand from Washington will be stretched out and placed upon every man’s business; the eye of the Federal inspector will be in every man’s counting house … The law will of necessity have inquisitorial features, it will provide penalties, it will create complicated machinery. Under it men will be hailed into courts distant from their homes. Heavy fines imposed by distant and unfamiliar tribunals will constantly menace the tax payer."

Dismissed at the time as being mere scare tactics by tax opponents, these expressed concerns proved to be legitimate.


Sincerely,

Donald J. Boudreaux

Don Boudreaux is the Chairman of the Department of Economics at George Mason University and a Business & Media Institute adviser.

P.S. I doubt we would need to search very hard to find very similar stories for things like Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, etc., etc., etc. The promises are always grand. The critics are always dismissed (for a variety of reasons, but usually because they are "wrong"). The reality ends up turning out as bad or worse than expected. I have no reason to believe this will be any different.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › The Biggest Threat to Obama's Health Care "Reform" - Reality