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The Biggest Threat to Obama's Health Care "Reform" - Reality - Page 51

post #2001 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Are you incapable of understanding how this works?

No. Are you?


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Try Europe. There are billionaires who own yachts and there is universal health care and free university education. Who'da thunk it?

There is no free education (or healthcare) in Europe...or anywhere. That appears to be something you are incapable of understanding.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2002 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

For every one case of someone who was hindered by a government health care system, there are a hundred cases of people who were helped by it.

And for every one case of someone who was hindered by a health insurance provider, there are hundreds of cases of people who were helped by it.

A single-payer system is no better than what we have now. In reality, it will be much worse.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #2003 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Canada does not have a private option.

That's not surprising. Both a "public option" and Obamacare will destroy private insurance. The writing is already on the wall. When the mandate on pre-existing conditions takes hold, that's the end for private insurance. One can refuse to buy health insurance, pay a $700 fine, and then go buy insurance after he gets, say, brain cancer. Insurance companies won't be able to deny these people, and they will get out of the business.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #2004 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

That's not surprising. Both a "public option" and Obamacare will destroy private insurance. The writing is already on the wall. When the mandate on pre-existing conditions takes hold, that's the end for private insurance. One can refuse to buy health insurance, pay a $700 fine, and then go buy insurance after he gets, say, brain cancer. Insurance companies won't be able to deny these people, and they will get out of the business.

Don't you think that's the whole plan?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2005 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Don't you think that's the whole plan?

Except that that hasn't happened anywhere it's been implemented. But just keep running with the FUD you've been fed by those who stand to profit less if changes are made. You guys are so easily manipulated it's sad.
post #2006 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

That's not surprising. Both a "public option" and Obamacare will destroy private insurance. The writing is already on the wall. When the mandate on pre-existing conditions takes hold, that's the end for private insurance. One can refuse to buy health insurance, pay a $700 fine, and then go buy insurance after he gets, say, brain cancer. Insurance companies won't be able to deny these people, and they will get out of the business.

I don't believe in an insurance mandate. Public option, and let the people who want a private ward, faster follow-ups and better choices opt in for the insurance option and private care. Win win win.
post #2007 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

CBO doubles estimate of Obamacare's cost. The Unaffordable Care Act will now cost 1.76 TRILLION over 10 years.

Please, someone tell me how we're just dealing with George Bush's mess and credit card bill.

Well see because the 1% wall street evil greed something we're not going to stand for it inherited afghanistan or like um Goldman Sachs (liberal dog whistle for evil jews) real estate bailout obstructionist republicans which are evil oil production is up green economy.
post #2008 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You guys are so easily manipulated it's sad.

Based on the shit you toss out here I don't think you're in any position to be spouting off about who's easily manipulated.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2009 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Based on the shit you toss out here I don't think you're in any position to be spouting off about who's easily manipulated.


Oh? Really? What is the source of my 'shit'? The media? The left wing blogosphere?

No. How about independent reasoning? Which you guys who toss out ridiculous shit about the insurance industry failing don't seem to have much of.
post #2010 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Oh? Really? What is the source of my 'shit'?

Don't know for sure. But you sure seem to be certain that I am simply being manipulated by the insurance lobby and oil lobby. :roll eyes:


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

How about independent reasoning?

What about it? What does it matter if it's faulty?


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Which you guys who toss out ridiculous shit about the insurance industry failing don't seem to have much of.

Look, just because we don't agree with you doesn't mean we're not doing any or don't have much reasoning. We are just reasoning things out differently and coming to different conclusions.

You don't even see how arrogant you are here.

When someone arrives at a different conclusion than you do...that is in direct opposition to for thoughts is an ignorant, stupid, unreasoning, easily manipulated simpleton shilling for whatever special interest you think is controlling them.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2011 of 2360
Just are you "reason" differently when it comes to evolution. Bleh.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #2012 of 2360
It helps to make assumptions when MJ and Jazzy recite word for word the Libertarian manifesto with a Mormon twist, without deviating an inch.

Likewise for SDW and the Republicans.

There's no one you can accuse me of parroting. I disagree with Huffpo half the time, and I don't watch Jon Stewart, and I don't read the 'Liberal newspapers' or watch 'Liberal television news'.

By far the closest you can get to my point of view is the PDA, which I have joined and I do follow and support, but I've only known about them for half a year or so. And I think Borowitz says some poignant things.
post #2013 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

It helps to make assumptions when MJ and Jazzy recite word for word the Libertarian manifesto with a Mormon twist, without deviating an inch.

This is your form of "reasoning?"


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

There's no one you can accuse me of parroting. I disagree with Huffpo half the time, and I don't watch Jon Stewart, and I don't read the 'Liberal newspapers' or watch 'Liberal television news'.

Well good for you. I use my own reasoning to arrive at my own conclusions too (and I'm not Mormon and nor home-schooled as you previously assumed I was...though I am something of an autodidact on some subjects.) As I said before just because my reasoning is different from yours or I arrive at different conclusions doesn't mean I'm not using any or that I'm thoughtlessly parroting off some "manifesto" or talking points of someone else you disagree with. It is profoundly arrogant for you to assume this.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2014 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

It helps to make assumptions when MJ and Jazzy recite word for word the Libertarian manifesto with a Mormon twist, without deviating an inch.

Please. All you know is that I am a libertarian and a Mormon. Just about everything else you "know" about me is based on assumptions.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #2015 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Please. All you know is that I am a libertarian and a Mormon. Just about everything else you "know" about me is based on assumptions.

I wasn't commenting on who you are. I was commenting on exactly what you say on these boards. Which is exactly toeing the line. You haven't shown the capability to think for yourself here. I'm waiting for it.
post #2016 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You haven't shown the capability to think for yourself here.

This is exactly the kind of demeaning character attack leftists throw at people when they disagree with their ideas.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #2017 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I wasn't commenting on who you are. I was commenting on exactly what you say on these boards. Which is exactly towing the line. You haven't shown the capability to think for yourself here. I'm waiting for it.

You disagree with my beliefs, therefore, I don't think for myself. Your logic is astounding.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #2018 of 2360
You guys don't get my point. Your beliefs toe the party line. That's the only observation.
post #2019 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You guys don't get my point. Your beliefs toe the party line. That's the only observation.

Then you haven't been paying attention.

I've stated on numerous occasions that I currently don't associate myself with any political party, including the Libertarian party (if that is the party to which you are referring).

I believe there is a difference between Libertarians (upper-case "L") and libertarians (lower-case "L").

I only registered Republican to vote for Ron Paul in my state's primary. Before that I was PND (Party Not Declared).

You really need to stop putting people into these groups you've concocted in your mind. It leads you to jump to erroneous conclusions about them. Treat people as individuals. It opens up a whole new world of learning opportunities.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #2020 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Don't you think that's the whole plan?

Yes, in fact. I do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I don't believe in an insurance mandate. Public option, and let the people who want a private ward, faster follow-ups and better choices opt in for the insurance option and private care. Win win win.

Explain what a "public option" is in your view.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

It helps to make assumptions when MJ and Jazzy recite word for word the Libertarian manifesto with a Mormon twist, without deviating an inch.

Likewise for SDW and the Republicans.

There's no one you can accuse me of parroting. I disagree with Huffpo half the time, and I don't watch Jon Stewart, and I don't read the 'Liberal newspapers' or watch 'Liberal television news'.

By far the closest you can get to my point of view is the PDA, which I have joined and I do follow and support, but I've only known about them for half a year or so. And I think Borowitz says some poignant things.


Let me get this straight: I hate all Muslims, gays, blacks and the poor and only get my information from my GOP handlers, but you're independent and without prejudice. Right?
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #2021 of 2360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
JUSTICE KENNEDY: But the reason, the reason this is concerning, is because it requires the individual to do an affirmative act. In the law of torts our tradition, our law, has been that you don't have the duty to rescue someone if that person is in danger. The blind man is walking in front of a car and you do not have a duty to stop him absent some relation between you. And there is some severe moral criticisms of that rule, but that's generally the rule.

The court is discussing and may decide whether you are your brother's keeper. People can make fun of Ayn Rand but damn is she prophetic.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #2022 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Quote:
JUSTICE KENNEDY: But the reason, the reason this is concerning, is because it requires the individual to do an affirmative act. In the law of torts our tradition, our law, has been that you don't have the duty to rescue someone if that person is in danger. The blind man is walking in front of a car and you do not have a duty to stop him absent some relation between you. And there is some severe moral criticisms of that rule, but that's generally the rule.

The court is discussing and may decide whether you are your brother's keeper. People can make fun of Ayn Rand but damn is she prophetic.

I think most people want to help others and most would certainly help the proverbial blind man stepping into traffic.

I think the critical issue here is the compulsion*.

The question that arises here is what does society and liberty look like under a regime of compelling this behavior. Is it the morally right thing to do? It is the morally healthy thing to do? What does that society look like long term.

There are certain counter-intuitive things that ought to be considered in this debate:

1a. Despite lack of central (i.e., government) planning tons of things happen with great consistency, success and even precision.
1b. Whenever and wherever central (i.e., government) planning is implemented it leads to terrible shortages, inefficiencies and failures.

2a. Despite government mandated Samaritanism, people get taken care of, usually very well.
2b. Government mandated Samaritanism is very likely to lead to less morality in society, not more.

3a. Greater personal, political and economic liberty tends to lead to greater order and stability.
3b. Greater control and restriction of personal, political and economic freedom tends to lead to greater chaos and instability.

Obamacare (among other initiatives) shoots for the trifecta of 1b, 2b and 3b.

Unfortunately those who advocate 1b, 2b and 3b sort of have the positive language and short-term effects on their side. Word like "planning", "control" and "helping others" all seem to be positive words...and they are. But in the context we're speaking of they are double-edged (s)words.


*What's especially ironic about this compulsion is that advocacy for it typically comes from our leftist friends who, for a long time now, have been telling us that we can't legislate morality.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2023 of 2360
Obama argued against the individual mandate while campaigning in 2008. In fact, a federal judge used his own words against him in declaring it unconstitutional.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #2024 of 2360
And Romney argued for it. Gee. The compartmentalization that goes on inside your head is just astounding.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #2025 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

And Romney argued for it. Gee. The compartmentalization that goes on inside your head is just astounding.

No, he did not. He supported it at the state level. The refusal to understand federalism is just astounding.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #2026 of 2360

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2027 of 2360
Some things should not be done for profit. Some things should not be left to the market. Healthcare is one of those things. Thanks for demonstrating that, MJ.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #2028 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Some things should not be done for profit. Some things should not be left to the market. Healthcare is one of those things. Thanks for demonstrating that, MJ.

That isn't even the point. This issue exists regardless of whether profit is involved. Resources in this world are finite. You need to learn to accept this...it is the adult thing to do.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2029 of 2360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

That isn't even the point. This issue exists regardless of whether profit is involved. Resources in this world are finite. You need to learn to accept this...it is the adult thing to do.

Resources being finite, you sounds all numbery and scientificy and things like that.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #2030 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Resources being finite, you sounds all numbery and scientificy and things like that.

Plus I hate little kids that get sick. You forget that.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2031 of 2360
Don't you eat babies, MJ1970?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #2032 of 2360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Plus I hate little kids that get sick. You forget that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Don't you eat babies, MJ1970?

How come BR hasn't managed to convince all those contraceptive companies to avoid that whole profit motive bit? I hold him responsible for that. He hates women and their vaginas because he hasn't managed to make those companies forgo profits.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #2033 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

How come BR hasn't managed to convince all those contraceptive companies to avoid that whole profit motive bit? I hold him responsible for that. He hates women and their vaginas because he hasn't managed to make those companies forgo profits.

I'm quite sure that BR is also not in any hurry to forgo the profits he earns in his own life. That profit is just fine.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2034 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Obama argued against the individual mandate while campaigning in 2008. In fact, a federal judge used his own words against him in declaring it unconstitutional.

If you haven't noticed, Obama has flip-flopped on a lot of his positions, turning from a Liberal perspective to a Conservative one to try to pander to the Republicans.

The individual Mandate was a Republican policy. Obama flip-flopped on his Liberal statements against it.
post #2035 of 2360
Oh, and I hope the Supreme Court rejects the individual mandate. It will put more pressure on the institution of a single payer public option if they do, even if to do so we need a constitutional amendment.
post #2036 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Oh, and I hope the Supreme Court rejects the individual mandate. It will put more pressure on the institution of a single payer public option if they do, even if to do so we need a constitutional amendment.

Well at least now you're talking about trying to follow the constitutional process.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2037 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Well at least now you're talking about trying to follow the constitutional process.

Now!? How many times have I said we need a constitutional amendment to properly regulate gun ownership?
post #2038 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Now!? How many times have I said we need a constitutional amendment to properly regulate gun ownership?

Don't you mean repeal the 2nd Amendment?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #2039 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Now!? How many times have I said we need a constitutional amendment to properly regulate gun ownership?

OK. So on two issues. Most of the crap you advocate for though do not fit under the specific and enumerated powers of the federal government and are certainly unconstitutional.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2040 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Oh, and I hope the Supreme Court rejects the individual mandate. It will put more pressure on the institution of a single payer public option if they do, even if to do so we need a constitutional amendment.

That's an interesting argument. It's clear that the federal government has very broad power to tax and create programs (e.g., social security, medicare, etc.). That's a longstanding power of the federal govt, and no constitutional amendments are necessary. But now conservatives are arguing that the federal govt does not have the power to require people to participate in private alternatives. So we have this:

Big govt tax-and-spend programs: Long-standing precedents.
Typical market-based conservative alternatives: Unconstitutional.

For example the conservative alternative to social security - requiring people to purchase private investment accounts - would be unconstitutional.

Of course conservatives are not thinking these things through, they're just stamping their feet and yelling "Obamacare is ILLEEEEGAL."
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