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The Biggest Threat to Obama's Health Care "Reform" - Reality - Page 54

post #2121 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I would say a prisoner who has grounds privileges has more freedom than a prisoner who is in a solitary confinement cell, would you not?

Are you honestly trying to make the argument that a prisoner is free?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #2122 of 2360
jazz, I would actually disagree that there not degrees of freedom and liberty. I think there are.

In the US, broadly speaking, there are varying degrees of liberty and not-liberty depending on what we're talking about. Sadly the trend, broadly speaking, has been toward much less liberty over time.

With regard to the specific topic here, I would argue that the US healthcare market is not more free than other countries it is differently unfree. Meaning that there is the same (or probably even less) market freedom in the US, it is simply structured differently than the unfreedom in other countries. Is it much worse? In some wasy yes and in other ways no. It is different though. But this difference does not amount to an actual free market (or really even close to one) in the US which is the error "I used to be brussell" is making.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2123 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

jazz, I would actually disagree that there not degrees of freedom and liberty. I think there are.

I do see your point, here. If you are able to do a certain thing you want to do, that means you are free in that particular instance, right? Let's turn this concept on its head. Are there degrees of slavery? Can slavery and freedom truly coexist?

Or is the idea that we are "free by degrees" just an illusion?

Sure, you're free to drive a car, start a business, or travel to other countries...until the State says you aren't. If the State can arbitrarily limit our freedom whenever it wants, are we truly free?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #2124 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I do see your point, here. If you are able to do a certain thing you want to do, that means you are free in that particular instance, right?

Yes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Let's turn this concept on its head. Are there degrees of slavery?

Certainly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Can slavery and freedom truly coexist?

I think they do...but not well...and probably not long term.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Or is the idea that we are "free by degrees" just an illusion?

I don't think it's just an illusion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Sure, you're free to drive a car, start a business, or travel to other countries...until the State says you aren't. If the State can arbitrarily limit our freedom whenever it wants, are we truly free?

So that's a fair question. I would say you are free up to that point but living in a precarious state of freedom.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2125 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

So that's a fair question. I would say you are free up to that point but living in a precarious state of freedom.

I suppose from the perspective that our natural state is freedom and it is only limited by the aggression of others (or our own stupidity), that would make sense.

So yes, tonton, you are right. A prisoner who has grounds privileges does have more freedom than a prisoner in solitary.

But still, is he free?

The U.S. healthcare system may or may not me more free-market than others. But is it free-market?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #2126 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

The U.S. healthcare system may or may not me more free-market than others. But is it free-market?

Yeah...and I'd argue that it is so far from freedom that it would an insult to the word to even call it that.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2127 of 2360
Wow I feel like I just walked into a Ron Paul for President meeting. Are you guys going to start debating the morality of zip codes next?

Look, people in the US rely more on private health insurance than in other countries, but we have the most expensive health care and yet poorer health outcomes than most other countries. That doesn't speak well to the efficiency of private health insurance.

We can also look at variation in existing systems. For example, Switzerland has a private insurance system, whereas many other European countries have a public system. And yet Switzerland is one of the least efficient of the European countries, and the most efficient ones are the most socialized.

Now, you guys always say that we need an even more pure free-market system to really see how great it can be. But of course there aren't any examples of such a system. So we're left with the fact that the only actual existing evidence is overwhelmingly negative, and the only positive evidence is purely hypothetical.
post #2128 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by I used to be brussell View Post

Look, people in the US rely more on private health insurance than in other countries, but we have the most expensive health care and yet poorer health outcomes than most other countries. That doesn't speak well to the efficiency of private health insurance.

But they're not relying on a freely competitive market, which where this discussion with me started.


Quote:
Originally Posted by I used to be brussell View Post

Now, you guys always say that we need an even more pure free-market system to really see how great it can be. But of course there aren't any examples of such a system.

So what? We have both reasoning and (many) examples from other market sectors to guide us.


Quote:
Originally Posted by I used to be brussell View Post

So we're left with the fact that the only actual existing evidence is overwhelmingly negative, and the only positive evidence is purely hypothetical.

That's not what we have at all. That situation only exists in your imagination.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2129 of 2360
Right, the conservative evidence is "von Mises wrote a paper."
post #2130 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

Right, the conservative evidence is "von Mises wrote a paper."



Why don't you just admit it if you're unable to contribute something useful to the discussion. Oh wait, you just did.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2131 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

Right, the conservative evidence is "von Mises wrote a paper."

Most "conservatives" don't know who von Mises is.

Libertarians are neither conservative nor liberal (at least in the modern senses of the words), and I would say libertarians are far more familiar with von Mises.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #2132 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Most "conservatives" don't know who von Mises is.

Libertarians are neither conservative nor liberal (at least in the modern senses of the words), and I would say libertarians are far more familiar with von Mises.

Libertarians are not conservative....
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #2133 of 2360
Do mainstream conservatives advocate legalization of all drugs?

Do mainstream conservatives advocate bringing our troops home and a non-interventionist foreign policy?

Libertarians do.

I could go on.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #2134 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Do mainstream conservatives advocate legalization of all drugs?

Do mainstream conservatives advocate bringing our troops home and a non-interventionist foreign policy?

Libertarians do.

I could go on.

Do Libertarians ever, ever, EVER vote for a Democrat?
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #2135 of 2360
I don't speak for all libertarians. Not all libertarians vote because they believe it's just validating a corrupt/rigged system.

I do vote, but not according to party. I vote according to principle. If Ron Paul ran as an Independent, Democrat, Libertarian, or whatever, I'd vote for him all the same.

In the 2012 election, If Dr. Paul doesn't win the GOP nomination, I'll be voting 3rd party.

As far as Democrats go, I think one of the most prominent Dems I agree with on more than one issue is Dennis Kucinich. But I don't know that I would vote for him.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #2136 of 2360
It just not ok to pick on certain professionals. To say "You are a doctor, therefore you have to become servant of the state, accepting whatever money we say, and delivering whatever treatments we say." What about me? I am a software developer, and more and more critical systems are controlled by software, am I next?

No, all men should be free, including doctors. Especially doctors in fact, because I don't want someone bitter and disenchanted operating on me.
post #2137 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

It just not ok to pick on certain professionals. To say "You are a doctor, therefore you have to become servant of the state, accepting whatever money we say, and delivering whatever treatments we say." What about me? I am a software developer, and more and more critical systems are controlled by software, am I next?

No, all men should be free, including doctors. Especially doctors in fact, because I don't want someone bitter and disenchanted operating on me.

How about lawyers?
post #2138 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

How about lawyers?

Yes, lawyers should be free also. Well except, maybe, those who ask for our votes by promising to make others less free.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2139 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Yes, lawyers should be free also. Well except, maybe, those who ask for our votes by promising to make others less free.

Why do you hate the constitution?
post #2140 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Why do you hate the constitution?

I don't. Why do you?

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2141 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I don't. Why do you?

Try the Sixth Amendment.
post #2142 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Try the Sixth Amendment.

Yes, and?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2143 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Yes, and?

Never mind.
post #2144 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Never mind.

No problem.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2145 of 2360

Employers could save billions by dropping workers from health plans, report shows

 

 

 

Quote:

A new survey of Fortune 100 companies finds that the health care overhaul, contrary to the claims of its authors, created some perverse incentives for employers to drop workers from company insurance plans.

 

Republicans on the House Ways and Means Committee surveyed the top 100 companies about how much they spent on health care -- a total of 71, covering 5.9 million employees, responded. The results suggested it would be far more attractive for companies to drop workers from those plans than keep them. 

 

Even after paying a penalty of $2,000 per employee, the companies stand to save $28.6 billion in 2014 alone by shifting employees to health insurance exchanges governed by strict federal standards. The companies stand to save more than $422 billion over the first 10 years of the law by doing this. 

 

"The penalties for the employers who drop coverage are very low, and the subsidies for the workers in the exchanges are very high," said James Capretta, with the Ethics and Public Policy Center. 

 

If the companies indeed take this step, the move would fly in the face of pledges by the law's backers, including President Obama, that U.S. workers would not lose their employer-provided health plans. 

 

Surprise, surprise.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2146 of 2360

Hmm...maybe a good reason to get some single payer going.  Healthcare should be decoupled from work, anyway.  It keeps people in jobs in which they are mistreated or under-appreciated out of fear of losing their healthcare.  Decoupling healthcare from employment will help level the playing field for the workers.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #2147 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Hmm...maybe a good reason to get some single payer going.

 

Well that was the plan all along. They knew this would be the side-effect. It was their backdoor way to single-payer.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Healthcare should be decoupled from work, anyway.  It keeps people in jobs in which they are mistreated or under-appreciated out of fear of losing their healthcare.  Decoupling healthcare from employment will help level the playing field for the workers.

 

Absolutely agree. We disagree on the means however.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2148 of 2360

Yes, you would prefer to throw everyone to the lions.  Christian revenge?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #2149 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Yes, you would prefer to throw everyone to the lions.  Christian revenge?

 

No.

 

*sigh*

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2150 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Yes, you would prefer to throw everyone to the lions.  Christian revenge?

 

Really, BR.  Really?  You are constant as the Northern Star.  

 

 

 

Quote:
Hmm...maybe a good reason to get some single payer going.

 

Right, because gee....you guys....awww shucks....didn't see this coming.  Also, no.  

 

 

Quote:
Healthcare should be decoupled from work, anyway.

 

Agreed there.  But while we're on the topic, do you know how we got here?  Wage controls.  That's how.  During WWII, FDR's wage controls prompted companies to start offering fringe benefits, one of which was company paid medical.  Over time, most employers adopted this to attract workers.  Eventually it became an expectation to have benefits.  And now...gee...we're going a step further:  Now it's "right" to have insurance.  

 

 

Quote:
 It keeps people in jobs in which they are mistreated or under-appreciated out of fear of losing their healthcare.

 

That's your concern?  That might be an issue, but it also: 

 

1.  Is costing employers dearly, causing them to make employees contribute more and cut coverage. 

2.  Means that when one gets fired or quits, health insurance virtually disappears as COBRA is unaffordable for most.  

 

 

 

Quote:
Decoupling healthcare from employment will help level the playing field for the workers.

 

Oh boy, the Workers of the World speech.  No, BR.  It's not about "leveling the playing field" for the poor little union factory worker or laborer.  You always portray work as if it's the 1920's, with lines of coal-faced men lining up with their tin pails and hard hats, just trying to earn a decent wage from the greedy, big oil/coal/random-evil-business.  Please.

 

Decoupling is the way to go, but as MJ notes we disagree on the why and how.  First, we should do it to let individuals make their own decisions, not force them into the Borg-like collective you apparently support.  

 

Secondly, we should open competition in the market while preserving some basic protections for consumers (e.g. opening competition across state lines, preserving pre-existing conditions protections for those that are currently insurable/insured).  

 

Third, we need to change our entire mindset of what medical insurance is for.  We expect it to pay for everything. This has made healthcare the racket it is. I don't care about cost a consumer of healthcare, because I pay $5-15 for a doctor's visit, $10-$35 for a script, and $40 for major surgery.  In turn, this means my doctor gets to get paid his insurance co-pay (and mine) every time he sees me, which of course includes authorizing a prescription I've been on for 6 years.  The whole system makes demand skyrocket and supply stay the same or get smaller.  One of the best illustrations of our flawed mindset is the following:  "Imagine how expensive your car insurance would be if, in addition to collision and liability, it covered gas, tires, oil changes and car washes."   Yet that's exactly what we expect our health insurance to do.  

 

Or, I suppose we could go the way you propose:  Free unlimited healthcare for all!  Weeeeeeee!    

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #2151 of 2360
More ways to make money off the sick and injured-

"When Ray White’s son was about 9 years old, he struck a tree branch while riding his bike. Within minutes, an ambulance whisked him off to the emergency room. The boy recovered, but many months and phone calls later, Mr. White’s insurance company still had not paid the $200 ambulance bill, even though the insurer had assured him it was covered. He finally decided it was easier to pay it himself.

But by then, it was already too late. Unbeknown to Mr. White, the debt had been reported to the credit bureaus. It was only when he and his wife went to refinance the $240,000 mortgage on their home in Lewisville, Tex., last month — nearly six years after the accident — that he learned the bill had shaved about 100 points from his credit score. Even with no other debts, a healthy income and otherwise pristine credit, the couple had to pay an extra $4,000 to secure a lower interest rate."
~ http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/05/your-money/medical-debts-can-leave-stains-on-credit-scores.html?_r=1&hp
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #2152 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

More ways to make money off the sick and injured-
"When Ray White’s son was about 9 years old, he struck a tree branch while riding his bike. Within minutes, an ambulance whisked him off to the emergency room. The boy recovered, but many months and phone calls later, Mr. White’s insurance company still had not paid the $200 ambulance bill, even though the insurer had assured him it was covered. He finally decided it was easier to pay it himself.
But by then, it was already too late. Unbeknown to Mr. White, the debt had been reported to the credit bureaus. It was only when he and his wife went to refinance the $240,000 mortgage on their home in Lewisville, Tex., last month — nearly six years after the accident — that he learned the bill had shaved about 100 points from his credit score. Even with no other debts, a healthy income and otherwise pristine credit, the couple had to pay an extra $4,000 to secure a lower interest rate."
~ http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/05/your-money/medical-debts-can-leave-stains-on-credit-scores.html?_r=1&hp

Please explain in detail how ObamaCare fixes that? 

post #2153 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Please explain in detail how ObamaCare fixes that? 

 

Good question.  Also, I'd love to know why a $200 bill can't simply be paid or explained.  Usually when these things come up they can be dealt with pretty quickly without a major impact on settlement.  Sounds to me like it was the mortgage broker or bank doing the exploitation!  Also, has anyone asked why this family hasn't seen the freecreditreport.com commercials?  ;)  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #2154 of 2360

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #2155 of 2360
post #2156 of 2360
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #2157 of 2360

"Why Life Expectancy Will Decline Under ObamaCare"

 

"What DC Schools Can Teach Us about Obamacare"

 

Well, maybe there's a chance that someone will get elected and repeal it.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2158 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post


Do Libertarians ever, ever, EVER vote for a Democrat?

 

Interestingly, Democrats voted for a Republican. Twice. Gary Johnson.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #2159 of 2360

I do not believe this. Everything you read in the media is not true all the time.
 

post #2160 of 2360

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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