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The Biggest Threat to Obama's Health Care "Reform" - Reality - Page 55

post #2161 of 2360

That is not fair to this couple. Unfortunately credit rules everything today which stinks!
 

post #2162 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Robert Reich on government-run healthcare

 

Robert Reich is power mad.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #2163 of 2360

How to Game Obamacare (And Eventually Collapse It)

 

The thing is, you don't even have to tell people this. What these morons in the White House don't seem to get is that incentives matter. They'll find out soon enough I suppose.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2164 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Well that was the plan all along. They knew this would be the side-effect. It was their backdoor way to single-payer.

 

 

 

If you're lucky.

post #2165 of 2360
I finally caught up with what Obamacare is about.

Here are the issues:

1a. It forces people to buy healthcare from private companies. This is a kind of a hack because this is a distortion of single-payer/universal health care. I understand the constitutional issues as well, and it makes sense that people were opposed and the Supreme Court decision. It is a dangerous thing, to force an individual to purchase something from a private entity.

1b. The simplest approach ~would~ have been to simply charge a federal tax to fund all government healthcare. This model works in many other developed countries. "Socialised Medicine" ~ nonsense. Are roads "Socialised Transport"? If anything, there is "Socialised War". Wars fought for the benefit of the very few, but borne in cost by everyone in the US. No democratic country operates as a purely capitalist society. A purely capitalist society would mean no state control whatsoever, no? Representative democracy means you actually need someone to actually ~represent~ you, ie. government.

1c. The US government already spends a massive amount on healthcare, but gets much less than other countries. Again, the issue is utterly overblown privatised healthcare costs. The government spending more on healthcare, or forcing people to buy health insurance does not address the core issue of why the bloody hell all healthcare companies are overpriced, overcharging, and making disgusting amount of profits.

1d. In fact, people are more concerned with government spending because the money is still going to obscene private health companies.

2.
The individual mandate penalty tax ~ where does this money go? Curious. This didn't seem clear.

3.
The regulation of the insurance industry is a good idea, and this is actually where the problem lies. US health insurance has too many clauses, too many loopholes, too much clawbacks and pre-existing exclusions, etc, that even if you pay for it, US health insurance is a lousy, lousy deal. It's like getting a Acer when most other developed countries offer at least a MacBook.

4.
You see, in most developed countries, the government pays for basic services, funded through taxation (general tax or specific tax). A patient may then pay a co-pay with the government, such as Australia. Then there are also private health insurance companies. Private health (generally called hospital + extras) in Australia is mandated to cover a very broad range of people.

The key is both public and private health insurance providers are tightly regulated. This is important because costs are managed. If private health providers are not tightly regulated, then the government itself pays astronomical amounts, like in the US, to private companies. Why would the government want this? You could say "free market is best for healthcare" ~ but for such a basic need, the evidence does not show free market is necessarily a good thing.

Additionally, we know most insurance is bullshit. There's too many "get out of jail free" cards for the insurer. The US private health insurance system has come to the point where it is a oligopoly because you either insure and pray for the best (that you won't be scammed by the insurance company), or you say, f**k it, and hope for the best.


5.
The intention of Obamacare has some good points but as the US government is run for large corporations, this is like putting an SSD in a G3 iBook. No matter how fast the SSD, your G3 iBook won't run Mountain Lion. I believe Obama should be re-elected because he is probably keeping the US from totally falling apart. But the game he is playing is very dangerous.

This is also the main cause of divisiveness in the US, I feel. Both "left" and "right" feel something is not right. Because fundamental issues the "left" and "right" are not being addressed. Forcing everyone to buy private health insurance, where the problem is the decrepit, decadent and revolting health insurance industry itself, is just... not cool.

6.
If nobody has confidence in the federal government to pull off universal health care then it should be ceded to the states.
Edited by sr2012 - 7/12/12 at 3:09am
post #2166 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by I used to be brussell View Post

Wow I feel like I just walked into a Ron Paul for President meeting. Are you guys going to start debating the morality of zip codes next?



Look, people in the US rely more on private health insurance than in other countries, but we have the most expensive health care and yet poorer health outcomes than most other countries. That doesn't speak well to the efficiency of private health insurance.


We can also look at variation in existing systems. For example, Switzerland has a private insurance system, whereas many other European countries have a public system. And yet Switzerland is one of the least efficient of the European countries, and the most efficient ones are the most socialized.


Now, you guys always say that we need an even more pure free-market system to really see how great it can be. But of course there aren't any examples of such a system. So we're left with the fact that the only actual existing evidence is overwhelmingly negative, and the only positive evidence is purely hypothetical.

Bingo. QFT. Free market is all fun and games until there is no more of a free market, instead a government-sponsored oligopoly.
post #2167 of 2360

Robert Reich tells the truth and you Republicans do not like it.
 

post #2168 of 2360
Quote:
1b. The simplest approach ~would~ have been to simply charge a federal tax to fund all government healthcare. This model works in many other developed countries. "Socialised Medicine" ~ nonsense. Are roads "Socialised Transport"? If anything, there is "Socialised War". Wars fought for the benefit of the very few, but borne in cost by everyone in the US. No democratic country operates as a purely capitalist society. A purely capitalist society would mean no state control whatsoever, no? Representative democracy means you actually need someone to actually ~represent~ you, ie. government.

 

We already have that.  It's called Medicare/Medicaid.  The easiest approach would have been to expand these programs with other common-sense reforms, such as portability, tort-reform, pre-existing conditions (if you are currently insurable or have been recently) and the popular "age 26" provision.  

 

 

 

Quote:
1c. The US government already spends a massive amount on healthcare, but gets much less than other countries. Again, the issue is utterly overblown privatised healthcare costs. The government spending more on healthcare, or forcing people to buy health insurance does not address the core issue of why the bloody hell all healthcare companies are overpriced, overcharging, and making disgusting amount of profits.

 

We have the best healthcare in the world.  The problem is how we pay for it.  The issue is not greedy insurance companies, it's that insurance ins't insurance anymore.  With lack of competition for consumers across state lines, lax tort laws (frivolous and excessive lawsuits) and the notion that insurance has to cover EVERYTHING, we see the problem.  Imagine how expensive your car insurance would be if it covered gas, oil changes, car washes and burritos. That's the problem.  Also, the patient has no interest in what his care costs, because it's all third-party.  

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:
3.
The regulation of the insurance industry is a good idea, and this is actually where the problem lies. US health insurance has too many clauses, too many loopholes, too much clawbacks and pre-existing exclusions, etc, that even if you pay for it, US health insurance is a lousy, lousy deal. It's like getting a Acer when most other developed countries offer at least a MacBook.

 

Totally wrong.  Regulation is not the answer.  In fact, regulating that they cover pre-existing conditions (as currently written) destroys the entire concept of what insurance is.  When this language kicks in, one can wait until he's sick to buy insurance.  The carrier can't even charge you much more.  This will be the end of private insurance.  Mark my words.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:
The key is both public and private health insurance providers are tightly regulated. This is important because costs are managed. If private health providers are not tightly regulated, then the government itself pays astronomical amounts, like in the US, to private companies. Why would the government want this? You could say "free market is best for healthcare" ~ but for such a basic need, the evidence does not show free market is necessarily a good thing.

 

No, the evidence shows quite the opposite.  What makes you thing that tight regulation brings down costs?  It does not.  We already have tight regulation.  What we need is a market-centered approach, where people take personal responsibility.  The government does not owe you healthcare.  The problem is more in the entitlement mindset than anything.  We should provide basic services for those who don't have money, as we already do and can do better.  Moreover, we need to reform what insurance covers as I mentioned above.

 

By the way:  From a certain point of view, the government created many of the problems we have with insurance today.  Prior to the Great Depression, employer health coverage really didn't exist.  But with FDR's wage controls, employers started offering "fringe" benefits to attract workers.  This led to the widespread adoption of employer-paid medical.  As coverage grew, workers were asked to contribute to their premiums.  Because no one cares what their care actually costs, demand goes up, and price goes up.  We're not at the point where many people cannot afford health insurance without having it provided through their jobs.  This needs to change.   The current system is not patient and doctor centered, and will only get worse.  

 

By the way #2:  Another Obamacare lie is "if you like your plan and doctor, you keep them."  False.  Eventually, plans like mine (I'm a teacher, so I do enjoy good benefits) will eventually be taxed as a "Cadillac plan."   In turn, more employers will stop offering approved plans, pushing people into government exchanges.  It's backdoor single-payer.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #2169 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

1a. It forces people to buy healthcare from private companies. This is a kind of a hack because this is a distortion of single-payer/universal health care. I understand the constitutional issues as well, and it makes sense that people were opposed and the Supreme Court decision. It is a dangerous thing, to force an individual to purchase something from a private entity.

 

It's actually much, much worse than that. The decision effectively say that Congress has the absolute and unlimited power to tax for anything...including inactivity.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

1b. The simplest approach ~would~ have been to simply charge a federal tax to fund all government healthcare. This model works in many other developed countries. "Socialised Medicine" ~ nonsense. Are roads "Socialised Transport"? If anything, there is "Socialised War". Wars fought for the benefit of the very few, but borne in cost by everyone in the US. No democratic country operates as a purely capitalist society. A purely capitalist society would mean no state control whatsoever, no? Representative democracy means you actually need someone to actually ~represent~ you, ie. government.

 

Whether simpler or not, the better approach would have been for government to get out of the healthcare and health insurance markets completely. You beg the question with regard to whether or not a "representative democracy" is needed or that "no state control whatsoever" is a bad thing.

 

P.S. Yes, the roads are "socialized transport."

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

1c. The US government already spends a massive amount on healthcare, but gets much less than other countries. Again, the issue is utterly overblown privatised healthcare costs. The government spending more on healthcare, or forcing people to buy health insurance does not address the core issue of why the bloody hell all healthcare companies are overpriced, overcharging, and making disgusting amount of profits.

 

And the problem (as usual) is the government's involvement in this market. Do you have any idea why healthcare costs are so high?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

1d. In fact, people are more concerned with government spending because the money is still going to obscene private health companies.

 

"Obscene private health companies?" I think we're starting to get what your worldview is.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

3. The regulation of the insurance industry is a good idea, and this is actually where the problem lies. US health insurance has too many clauses, too many loopholes, too much clawbacks and pre-existing exclusions, etc, that even if you pay for it, US health insurance is a lousy, lousy deal. It's like getting a Acer when most other developed countries offer at least a MacBook.
 

 

It is interesting the analogy you chose. You have used an analogy from a virtually unregulated industry (personal computers and electronics) to compare to an extremely heavily government-controlled industry. One industry is delivering amazing products with great innovation, quality and ever lower prices. The other sucks. I wonder why.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

4. You see, in most developed countries, the government pays for basic services, funded through taxation (general tax or specific tax). A patient may then pay a co-pay with the government, such as Australia. Then there are also private health insurance companies. Private health (generally called hospital + extras) in Australia is mandated to cover a very broad range of people.
The key is both public and private health insurance providers are tightly regulated. This is important because costs are managed. If private health providers are not tightly regulated, then the government itself pays astronomical amounts, like in the US, to private companies. Why would the government want this? You could say "free market is best for healthcare" ~ but for such a basic need, the evidence does not show free market is necessarily a good thing.
Additionally, we know most insurance is bullshit. There's too many "get out of jail free" cards for the insurer. The US private health insurance system has come to the point where it is a oligopoly because you either insure and pray for the best (that you won't be scammed by the insurance company), or you say, f**k it, and hope for the best.

 

*sigh* You seem to not see the forest for the trees on this entire issue.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

5. The intention of Obamacare has some good points but as the US government is run for large corporations, this is like putting an SSD in a G3 iBook. No matter how fast the SSD, your G3 iBook won't run Mountain Lion. I believe Obama should be re-elected because he is probably keeping the US from totally falling apart. But the game he is playing is very dangerous.
This is also the main cause of divisiveness in the US, I feel. Both "left" and "right" feel something is not right. Because fundamental issues the "left" and "right" are not being addressed. Forcing everyone to buy private health insurance, where the problem is the decrepit, decadent and revolting health insurance industry itself, is just... not cool.

 

Again, I'm amused with the analogies you've used yet your blindness to the patterns and correlations that are causing the greatness or sucky-ness.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

6. If nobody has confidence in the federal government to pull off universal health care then it should be ceded to the states.

 

Or the private sector. That's an option also.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2170 of 2360
But if the private health industry is heavily regulated, then clearly it has been very badly and very wrongly regulated, would you say? That could be the crux of the matter.

The conservative view is always,

If (the private sector is messed up, greedy, successful, not successful, hamstrung, whatever)
{
It is because of too much government regulation
};

But if government sucks, then try to fix it first before throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Surely there must be something good government can do? Many in other developed countries (aka "welfare states") thank their governments (from time to time) for not letting them starve and die on the streets.

Private health can cover pre-existing conditions, and there are ways to prevent abuse. Like waiting periods of 1 or 2 years, loading for pre-existing conditions and so on. But universal health care can reduce the burden on private health to do all the magic.

Entitlement is not the issue. You have a basic human right aka entitlement to basic human needs, provided by the community (in a larger sense the state and federal government). It does not entitle you to sit on your ass all day and do nothing. You have a basic human right to basic human needs that are provided by the government. Of course if you are a drug addict, alcoholic, disabled, lazy, crazy, or whatever then intervention by the community is needed because they want you to get back on your feet so that you can then contribute back to society. I honestly suspect most Americans outside of hardcore right-wing supporters believe this. It's just that there's too much divisiveness on how these things can be done.

Entitlement, yes, but ONLY to get you back on your feet so you can contribute back to society.

Think of it this way. The down-and-outs will never contribute to society if just left to rot, as they are mostly now. The high-achievers could be said to contribute to society, but this appears to be at the expense of the middle class. The middle class is eroding rapidly so they're mostly just worried about covering their own asses at this stage.

So, you have to ask, who is going to get all Americans to contribute to society? Unregulated private sector? That's highly dubious.

A very highly unregulated, or very badly regulated private sector is in my view, just anarchy. It's when you just say, screw it, everyone just do what they want, and let the chips fall where they may. Is this a conscious way of life?

And as for American health care, infant mortality, death due to uninsurance or underinsurance, plus life expectancy is generally more grim than most developed countries. It's certainly one of the best in the world, but in patches. As a whole it's not in good shape compared to most developed countries.

Ask yourself this. A crazy, homeless person who is deranged and has a broken leg. Where can he get treatment for free, not by a charity organisation? 2nd world countries, perhaps. Maybe not inner cities of the US. Am I wrong?

And through it all I have not ever seen a reasonable argument from the conservatives about people that simply will not be insured by the private health industry. What happens to them? Does nobody care anymore?

Cigna's retiring CEO got 73 million dollars.
http://www.pnhp.org/news/2010/january/denial-of-care-profits-73-million-for-cigna%E2%80%99s-retiring-ceo

The nation's five largest for-profit insurers closed 2009 with a combined profit of $12.2 billion, according to a report by the advocacy group Health Care for American Now (HCAN).

12 billion dollars in the worst recession in recent history, and all with seeing many of your fellow man or woman fail to get basic health services.

What are the conservatives' answers to this? Do they welcome this? If health insurers were given a totally unregulated blank slate, would any rational human being expect them to not get more greedy?

The shift in the US is happening because many now see that the golden promise of capitalism has sort of reached a use-by date. Either because that promise was unrealistic, or because the original idea of capitalism has been seriously deformed in practice around the world.

There are some fundamental human reasoning and feelings, no doubt, that say, something is very, very wrong. Can someone earn 1 million dollars per person that they kill from denying them their insurance claim? Is that fundamentally right?

If the "free market" gives this, then is it something you would really want?

Don't get me wrong, I like the US. But with China overtaking in the next 25 years in many aspects (and they already are), what happens when the things you thought were really great actually ends up causing more suffering, and the country starts to lose their podium position. Surely then, many will question, "Well, maybe we got some things wrong".
Edited by sr2012 - 7/13/12 at 10:37am
post #2171 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

We already have that.  It's called Medicare/Medicaid.  The easiest approach would have been to expand these programs with other common-sense reforms, such as portability, tort-reform, pre-existing conditions (if you are currently insurable or have been recently) and the popular "age 26" provision.  

This I agree. Why didn't they just expand Medicare to cover more people? Certainly the Age 26 provision is great stuff.

Sadly this is where Obama simply colluded with the health industry.

So it is an example of the double whammy I mentioned. Rubbish government decisions combined with very much less-than-benevolent industries.

But remember, even if you totally remove the rubbish government you're still stuck with a pretty nasty industry.

But if government was better, and the industry was better, wouldn't this improve things?

Put it simply:

bad government + bad industry = bad
bad government + good industry = bad
no government + bad industry = bad
no government + good industry = rare
good government + bad industry = well, maybe things can improve
good government + good industry = definitely things can improve
post #2172 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

But if the private health industry is heavily regulated, then clearly it has been very badly and very wrongly regulated, would you say? That could be the crux of the matter.

 

It is not a question of "if". It is heavily regulated and, yes, badly so. But this is the nature of regulation. Read up a bit on the concept of regulatory capture for a primer on, at least partly, why.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

The conservative view is always,
If (the private sector is messed up, greedy, successful, not successful, hamstrung, whatever)
{
It is because of too much government regulation
};

 

Well, generally, yeah. Government involvement in the private sector distorts the private sector. It is inherent in the nature of what government is and does.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

But if government sucks, then try to fix it first before throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

 

You assume it is fixable. I disagree. It appears to be that the corruption we see is part and parcel of government action.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

Surely there must be something good government can do?

 

Not sure.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

Many in other developed countries (aka "welfare states") thank their governments (from time to time) for not letting them starve and die on the streets.

 

OK.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

You have a basic human right aka entitlement to basic human needs, provided by the community (in a larger sense the state and federal government). You have a basic human right to basic human needs that are provided by the government.

 

I disagree.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

I honestly suspect most Americans outside of hardcore right-wing supporters believe this.

 

You may be right, but that's irrelevant.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

The high-achievers could be said to contribute to society, but this appears to be at the expense of the middle class.

 

Appearances can be deceptive, as in this case.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

It's when you just say, screw it, everyone just do what they want, and let the chips fall where they may.

 

That's a straw man.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

And as for American health care, infant mortality, death due to uninsurance or underinsurance, plus life expectancy is generally more grim than most developed countries. It's certainly one of the best in the world, but in patches. As a whole it's not in good shape compared to most developed countries.

 

Thanks for providing the in-depth analysis of the situation. :rolleyes:

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

Ask yourself this. A crazy, homeless person who is deranged and has a broken leg. Where can he get treatment for free, not by a charity organisation? 2nd world countries, perhaps. Maybe not inner cities of the US. Am I wrong?

 

Yes, you are wrong.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

And through it all I have not ever seen a reasonable argument from the conservatives about people that simply will not be insured by the private health industry.

 

Sorry that the arguments have not convinced you. I don't know what arguments you've heard, nor how reasonably open you are to them.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

What happens to them? Does nobody care anymore?

 

Why would you assume that would happen?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

Cigna's retiring CEO got 73 million dollars.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

The nation's five largest for-profit insurers closed 2009 with a combined profit of $12.2 billion.

 

Yes. Crony capitalists benefit the cronies. You've cited examples from a crony-capitalist industry.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

What are the conservatives' answers to this? Do they welcome this?

 

Don't know. You'll have to ask a conservative. I'm an anarcho-capitalist or libertarian.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

If health insurers were given a totally unregulated blank slate, would any rational human being expect them to not get more greedy?

 

Probably not. However, they'd be forced to compete more. So that would be a limiting factor on their greed.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

The shift in the US is happening because many now see that the golden promise of capitalism has sort of reached a use-by date. Either because that promise was unrealistic, or because the original idea of capitalism has been seriously deformed in practice around the world.

 

I believe you're profoundly mistaken. What is failing in the US is the quasi-socialist/quasi-fascist arrangement.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

If the "free market" gives this, then is it something you would really want?

 

No. But I dispute that the free market would. This is merely your distopian vision of the free market.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

what happens when the things you thought were really great actually ends up causing more suffering

 

You ought to ask yourself the very same question about your government-based prescriptions.


Edited by MJ1970 - 7/13/12 at 12:16pm

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2173 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

But if the private health industry is heavily regulated, then clearly it has been very badly and very wrongly regulated, would you say? That could be the crux of the matter.

 

It is not a question of "if". It is heavily regulated and, yes, badly so. But this is the nature of regulation. Read up a bit on the concept of regulatory capture for a primer on, at least partly, why.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

The conservative view is always,
If (the private sector is messed up, greedy, successful, not successful, hamstrung, whatever)
{
It is because of too much government regulation
};

 

Well, generally, yeah. Government involvement in the private sector distorts the private sector. It is inherent in the nature of what government is and does.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

But if government sucks, then try to fix it first before throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

 

You assume it is fixable. I disagree. It appears to be that the corruption we see is part and parcel of government action.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

Surely there must be something good government can do?

 

Not sure.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

Many in other developed countries (aka "welfare states") thank their governments (from time to time) for not letting them starve and die on the streets.

 

OK.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

You have a basic human right aka entitlement to basic human needs, provided by the community (in a larger sense the state and federal government). You have a basic human right to basic human needs that are provided by the government.

 

I disagree.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

I honestly suspect most Americans outside of hardcore right-wing supporters believe this.

 

You may be right, but that's irrelevant.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

The high-achievers could be said to contribute to society, but this appears to be at the expense of the middle class.

 

Appearances can be deceptive, as in this case.

 

 

Well...I've grown tired of trying to address every point in you unfocused, rambling, platitude laden, logically fallacious post. Perhaps next time you'll keep it a bit more focused. Or perhaps this is a tactic...simply overwhelm everyone with a bunch of words.

 

*sigh*

 

Quote:

You may be right, but that's irrelevant.

In a voting society? Uh no it's not.

Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #2174 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

In a voting society? Uh no it's not.

 

It's unsurprising you didn't get my meaning from the context. I should have been more specific: It's irrelevant to whether the proposed ideas are right or workable.

 

Millions of people can believe something to be right or workable and they could be wrong. Their belief (and the number of them believing it) doesn't confer rightness or workability onto something. You seem to be consistently oblivious to this basic logical truism.

 

It's true that in a voting society the majority can believe lots of incorrect things and vote accordingly to implement those things.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2175 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

no government + good industry = rare

 

I notice you don't give your evaluation of what would happen in this circumstance. You only declare it to be rare.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

good government + bad industry = well, maybe things can improve
good government + good industry = definitely things can improve

 

Here you don't assume that "good government" might be rare (or even non-existent).

 

Your biases are showing...which is fine...except that you pass them off as facts.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2176 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

In a voting society? Uh no it's not.

 

It's unsurprising you didn't get my meaning from the context. I should have been more specific: It's irrelevant to whether the proposed ideas are right or workable.

 

Millions of people can believe something to be right or workable and they could be wrong. Their belief (and the number of them believing it) doesn't confer rightness or workability onto something. You seem to be consistently oblivious to this basic logical truism.

 

It's true that in a voting society the majority can believe lots of incorrect things and vote accordingly to implement those things.

Or it could be that the majority is right and one small minority is wrong. That's why we have a voting society. Most of the people get what they want and you don't have one small faction controling things. If you do it becomes something other than a democracy.Given the ultra rich's lobbying power that's something that's always in danger here.

Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #2177 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Or it could be that the majority is right and one small minority is wrong.

 

Yes, it could be that way. My point is that the number of people that believe a certain thing is right or workable does not make it so. Try to follow along. Read more slowly if necessary. This is an important point which seems to elude your understanding.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

That's why we have a voting society.

 

Actually that's not why we have a voting society. We have a voting society because some people, a long time ago, felt that it was important for people to have a choice in how they are governed and by whom.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Most of the people get what they want and you don't have one small faction controling things.

 

Aside from your appeal to the tyranny of the majority (one the major failings of democracy), it turns out that what happened is that a small faction does control things. Oops.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

If you do it becomes something other than a democracy. Given the ultra rich's lobbying power that's something that's always in danger here.

 

Yeah. It's what we have now. It's called an aristocracy. And it isn't just about the rich, it is about special interested in general using the lever of the state and its power of force to impose on everyone their values and will.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2178 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Yeah. It's what we have now. It's called an aristocracy. And it isn't just about the rich, it is about special interested in general using the lever of the state and its power of force to impose on everyone their values and will.

So the solution is dissolve government and just let everyone do whatever they want?
post #2179 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post


So the solution is dissolve government and just let everyone do whatever they want?

 

Do you believe that, absent the state, everyone would a) have the right to do whatever they wanted, and/or b) be able to get away with doing whatever they wanted?

 

Do you believe that, absent the state, everyone would do whatever they want?

 

Do you believe that the state is the only limit on people's behavior and conduct?


Edited by MJ1970 - 7/20/12 at 1:21pm

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2180 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Do you believe that, absent the state, everyone would a) have the right to do whatever they wanted, and/or b) be able to get away with doing whatever they wanted?

Do you believe that, absent the state, everyone would do whatever they want?

Do you believe that the state is the only limit on people's behavior and conduct?

Well, I'm asking you ~ so without the State, what is your solution?
post #2181 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post


Well, I'm asking you ~ so without the State, what is your solution?

 

Solution to what?

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post #2182 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Solution to what?

I suspect you're purposely being obtuse, chanting "no government", yet do not say what this would achieve.
post #2183 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

I suspect you're purposely being obtuse

 

Not at all. You said:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

...without the State, what is your solution?

 

I'm asking you to tell me what I'm supposed to be a proposing a solution to. Solutions are for problems. You appear to implying that not having a state is the problem itself. But why? What is the problem with not having a state? Once you've clarified that I can discuss solutions.

 

You also have said:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

So the solution is dissolve government and just let everyone do whatever they want?

 

To which I asked you:

 

Quote:
Do you believe that, absent the state, everyone would a) have the right to do whatever they wanted, and/or b) be able to get away with doing whatever they wanted?
 
Do you believe that, absent the state, everyone would do whatever they want?
 
Do you believe that the state is the only limit on people's behavior and conduct?

 

But you have not answered.

 

You seem to assume that the world without the state would simply be chaos. Why do you assume this? What is your argument to support this claim?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

chanting "no government", yet do not say what this would achieve.

 

Greater freedom, peace and prosperity for everyone.


Edited by MJ1970 - 7/24/12 at 7:07am

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post #2184 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Greater freedom, peace and prosperity for everyone.

OK. Now we're getting somewhere. So, without government, we can have greater freedom, peace and prosperity for everyone.

How so? Now I'm curious. Is this in your other thread?
post #2185 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

OK. Now we're getting somewhere. So, without government, we can have greater freedom, peace and prosperity for everyone.
How so? Now I'm curious. Is this in your other thread?

 

  1. I subscribe to the non-aggression principle and believe this principle applies to everyone at all times.
  2. The state is an institution that claims the "right" and authority to violate the non-aggression principle. I believe this is wrong. However...
  3. If there is legitimate moral justification for an entity to have this power and authority, its use should be substantially limited for strictly moral purposes in which no other options exist. This might primarily be for the purpose of protecting people's basic rights of life, liberty and property. When this entity exceeds this boundary by using its power to infringe on people's rights of liberty, control their lives and take their property; the use of this power is no longer moral, legitimate or justifiable.
  4. I believe history has demonstrated that it's impossible to restrain an entity like this from exceeding this boundary.
  5. I believe it's possible for individuals (alone or in voluntary groupings) to act as their own agents in defense of their life, liberty and property.

 

These are my basic premises. If you disagree with these, you'll likely disagree with the rest of what I say. Even if you do agree with these, you may still disagree with what I claim next.

 

Given all of this:

 

  1. I believe a society lacking an institution that claims (or is given...by some) the"right" and authority to violate the non-aggression principle would be a society in which people have  greater security of person and property, greater freedom and is more inclined toward peaceful and productive activity vs. violent and destructive.
  2. In turn this would lead to a society that produces and accumulates greater wealth (and corresponding well-being) and engages in fewer violent conflicts and infringes less on people's liberty, steals less of people's property, etc.

 

I've tried to explain my view as clearly and succinctly as possible. I hope that helps. All of that said, I hope you'll answer some of my previous questions. Furthermore, if you disagree with what I've said here, please tell me why you think some (or all) of my premises (or conclusions) are wrong (and why).


Edited by MJ1970 - 7/24/12 at 8:02am

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post #2186 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I've tried to explain my view as clearly and succinctly as possible. I hope that helps. All of that said, I hope you'll answer some of my previous questions. Furthermore, if you disagree with what I've said here, please tell me why you think some (or all) of my premises (or conclusions) are wrong (and why).

OK good now I'm understanding you. I will have to look at your points and get back to you when I have time or in future threads/posts.
post #2187 of 2360

Medicare Rx Rationing begins.  

 

 

Hmmmm.  We told you so?  

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post #2188 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Medicare Rx Rationing begins.  


Hmmmm.  We told you so?  

Maybe that will work out pretty well for some people-

"Over the last 10 years, prescription drug abuse – abuse of medications which are legal for distribution – has become a national epidemic. Prescription drugs now surpass motor vehicle accidents as the No 1 cause of accidental death in almost half the states in this country. Last year, nearly 30,000 Americans died from an overdose, with at least half of these deaths related to legally controlled substances that were misused, abused, prescribed incorrectly, or simply just in the wrong person's hands.

Among the startling statistics, the United States now consumes 80% of the world's opioid pain medications and 99% of the world's hydrocodone (semi-synthetic opioid). The milligram per person use of prescription opioids in the United States increased from 74mg to 369mg, an increase of 402%, between 1997 and 2007. Prescription medication abuse is now only second to marijuana in terms of frequency. Prescription pharmaceuticals have become the newest – and seemingly, deadliest – gateway drug we have seen yet; nearly a third of people aged 12 and over who used drugs "recreationally" for the first time in 2009 began by using a prescription drug non-medically."
~ http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/jun/10/prescription-drug-abuse
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #2189 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post


Maybe that will work out pretty well for some people-
"Over the last 10 years, prescription drug abuse – abuse of medications which are legal for distribution – has become a national epidemic. Prescription drugs now surpass motor vehicle accidents as the No 1 cause of accidental death in almost half the states in this country. Last year, nearly 30,000 Americans died from an overdose, with at least half of these deaths related to legally controlled substances that were misused, abused, prescribed incorrectly, or simply just in the wrong person's hands.
Among the startling statistics, the United States now consumes 80% of the world's opioid pain medications and 99% of the world's hydrocodone (semi-synthetic opioid). The milligram per person use of prescription opioids in the United States increased from 74mg to 369mg, an increase of 402%, between 1997 and 2007. Prescription medication abuse is now only second to marijuana in terms of frequency. Prescription pharmaceuticals have become the newest – and seemingly, deadliest – gateway drug we have seen yet; nearly a third of people aged 12 and over who used drugs "recreationally" for the first time in 2009 began by using a prescription drug non-medically."
~ http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/jun/10/prescription-drug-abuse

 

Wow.  Only you could try to spin this into a positive.  

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post #2190 of 2360

The biggest threat to the GOP's idea that Obamacare is a bad thing. Romney! Their own candidate.lol.gif

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post #2191 of 2360
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Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

The biggest threat to the GOP's idea that Obamacare is a bad thing. Romney! Their own candidate.lol.gif

 

Unfortunately, for you, right and wrong, good and bad, workable and unworkable, effective or ineffective are not actually determined by political parties and ideologies.

 

What this means is that Obamacare is bad, unworkable, ineffective no matter who supports it or what name is flies under.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2192 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Unfortunately, for you, right and wrong, good and bad, workable and unworkable, effective or ineffective are not actually determined by political parties and ideologies.

 

What this means is that Obamacare is bad, unworkable, ineffective no matter who supports it or what name is flies under.

 

True.  But we don't even have to get there, because Romneycare ≠  Obamacare.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #2193 of 2360

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2194 of 2360

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2195 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

The Disaster That Romneycare is Becoming

Health insurance premiums were rising at a faster rate before Romneycare was introduced. Romneycare has slowed down the pace of rising premiums, as will Obamacare. For most people who actually need care, the benefits are much bigger than before, because they're properly insured, as opposed to the insurance companies not actually providing the coverage. 

 

What the US really needs though is a fully run government healthcare system, completely taking out the main middleman, the insurance companies, like the system the UK has, and the government would spend half of what it does now. That's a massive saving. Separate private insurance could then be offered to those who want it with no government intervention. Hopefully Americans will figure this out before they spend every penny they have on their health.

"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #2196 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Health insurance premiums were rising at a faster rate before Romneycare was introduced. Romneycare has slowed down the pace of rising premiums, as will Obamacare.

 

This is pretty typical of you. You fail see to the bigger picture even though it was fairly clearly laid out for you in that article:

 

 

Quote:
According to The Wall Street Journal: "Health costs...will consume some 54 percent of the [Massachusetts] state budget in 2012, up from about 24 percent in 2001. Over the same period state health spending in real terms has jumped by 59 percent, while education has fallen 15 percent, police and firemen by 11 percent and roads and bridges by 23 percent."

 

All that's happened is that costs have shifted. As they've shifted to government, the costs have risen faster. This is not at all surprising to anyone with an ounce of logic let alone the ability to observe historical precedent.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

What the US really needs though is a fully run government healthcare system, completely taking out the main middleman, the insurance companies, like the system the UK has, and the government would spend half of what it does now. That's a massive saving. Separate private insurance could then be offered to those who want it with no government intervention. Hopefully Americans will figure this out before they spend every penny they have on their health.

 

That would be a disaster. Massachusetts is the experiment and it's failing...badly.

 

The better option would be a fully privatize system where people could buy insurance across state lines and the specific tax advantage of employer-provided health insurance is eliminated. The best option would include the elimination of all government mandates on pricing, coverage, etc. But I suspect nothing anyone could say will convince you of this.


Edited by MJ1970 - 8/22/12 at 10:11am

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post #2197 of 2360

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2198 of 2360

18 pages to define 'full-time' for Obamacare

 

This will be a fun ride.

 

Obamacare: All the efficiency of the DMV with the compassion of the IRS.

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post #2199 of 2360

Have you guys covered the fact the majority of our health care dollars go to treating the chronic conditions of diabetes, congestive heart failure, and hypertension? Why can't doctors prescribe weight loss, but they can prescribe a lifetime of medication?

 

--and--

 

What the hell does happen when everyone gets the "oh f--- it, insurance will pay for it" attitude?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #2200 of 2360

Wait, dmz. Are you actually saying people should take responsibility for their own health?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

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