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The Biggest Threat to Obama's Health Care "Reform" - Reality - Page 57

post #2241 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


Do you have a point?

 

You missed it or are ignoring it. Like usual.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #2242 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Do you have a point?

You missed it or are ignoring it. Like usual.
Obama failed to move forward on many of his promises. So what? He was still the best candidate by far. Unfortunately, Kucinich wasn't the democratic nominee, and the Repubs can't nominate anyone with any policy that's not insane. Maybe Obama will get around to it this term. Do you honestly think Romney would have?
post #2243 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


Obama failed to move forward on many of his promises. So what? He was still the best candidate by far. Unfortunately, Kucinich wasn't the democratic nominee, and the Repubs can't nominate anyone with any policy that's not insane. Maybe Obama will get around to it this term. Do you honestly think Romney would have?

 

"So what?" Really? That's just sad.

 

And how quickly you forget that I said repeatedly that I saw no meaningful difference between Romney and Obama.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #2244 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


Obama failed to move forward on many of his promises. So what? He was still the best candidate by far. Unfortunately, Kucinich wasn't the democratic nominee, and the Repubs can't nominate anyone with any policy that's not insane. Maybe Obama will get around to it this term. Do you honestly think Romney would have?

Kucinich is an anti-vaxxer.  He'd not get my vote.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #2245 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Obama failed to move forward on many of his promises. So what? He was still the best candidate by far. Unfortunately, Kucinich wasn't the democratic nominee, and the Repubs can't nominate anyone with any policy that's not insane. Maybe Obama will get around to it this term. Do you honestly think Romney would have?

"So what?" Really? That's just sad.

And how quickly you forget that I said repeatedly that I saw no meaningful difference between Romney and Obama.
I guess that's why you piped in your criticism of Romney so much during the campaign. Oh, wait.
post #2246 of 2360

The Republicans are betting one one person to run perhaps in 2016 Chris Christie the only savior they might have.The rest are a joke.
 

post #2247 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

The Republicans are betting one one person to run perhaps in 2016 Chris Christie the only savior they might have.The rest are a joke.

 
And the same thing will happen again. The ultra conservatives will strongly reject Christie as too moderate, and either he will pull a Romney and suddenly swing right, winning him the nomination but losing him the election, or someone wacko will beat him in the primaries, and lose the election.
post #2248 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I guess that's why you piped in your criticism of Romney so much during the campaign. Oh, wait.

Yes. I did. And much of my criticism was offered during the time you had left the forum "for good".

So please stop lumping me in with Romney supporters and other such groups. And please stop acting like you know all about what I think and believe when it is obvious you don't.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #2249 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


Agree 100%.

 

Single payer also replaces an impenetrable insurance bureaucracy with an even more impenetrable government bureaucracy.

 

It does offer better universal coverage, but with a severe cost of stifling technological and managerial innovation.

 

In a time when scientific discoveries are announced daily and the technology sector is ascendent, that's a very tough pill to swallow for a science-based industry.

The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #2250 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


Agree 100%.

 

Single payer also replaces an impenetrable insurance bureaucracy with an even more impenetrable government bureaucracy.

 

It does offer better universal coverage, but with a severe cost of stifling technological and managerial innovation.

 

In a time when scientific discoveries are announced daily and the technology sector is ascendent, that's a very tough pill to swallow for a science-based industry.

 

So let's see. On one hand you have the state of healthcare in the hands of companies whose duty it is to make a profit, as high a profit as possible. On the other hands, you can put it in the hands of the government whose duty is to the people, to provide the best care to the greatest number of people possible, at an affordable price. Again, all you have to do is to look around you. How does it work in other countries? Sure, the rich come to the US from Canada to get treated in the US. They're rich. They can. But the middle class (Sara Palin?) comes from the US to Canada to get reasonably priced care. And the US is behind other countries in terms of overall health care for the general populace. I know which system I would choose for the population of people living around me.
post #2251 of 2360

Call me when you get a letter in the mail saying that your medical procedure wait will be three months, and you know you need a diagnosis within 30 days or it might not make a difference. So I told the hospital I was going to Buffalo for the test.

 

And I am most certainly not rich, either by GOP or Democrat standards.

The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #2252 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Call me when you get a letter in the mail saying that your medical procedure wait will be three months, and you know you need a diagnosis within 30 days or it might not make a difference. So I told the hospital I was going to Buffalo for the test.

And I am most certainly not rich, either by GOP or Democrat standards.
And yet, Canada's health system is still constantly ranked higher in terms of overall public health than the American joke of a system. Go figure.
post #2253 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


And yet, Canada's health system is still constantly ranked higher in terms of overall public health than the American joke of a system. Go figure.

 

No question. But a system that somewhat adequately serves a nation of 30-plus million people will not necessarily work for a nation of 310 million people. And Canada's system is strained WITHOUT an illegal immigration border crisis.

 

Factor in the fact that the U.S.A. houses the majority of the world's universities and pharmaceutical companies, and you have the potential for a world-class debacle if the American system collapses under the weight of Obamacare. Today, we take pills for things that required surgeries a few years ago. Canada's home grown pharmaceutical industry consists largely of generic pill manufacturers. It's just not the same thing.

 

I do not doubt your sincerity or compassion for the poor and disadvantaged in America, but your assumption that the U.S. can simply adopt methodologies and systems that work elsewhere is inherently flawed.

The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #2254 of 2360

Whole Foods CEO apologizes for using the word 'fascism' correctly. Outrage was driven primarily by people in the habit of using it incorrectly.

The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #2255 of 2360

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #2256 of 2360

The above cartoon is grossly ignorant.

 

There are plenty of socialists who offer to pay more in taxes. Just not individually. You see that's the thing with socialism. It only works when society is involved.

post #2257 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

There are plenty of socialists who offer to pay more in taxes. Just not individually. You see that's the thing with socialism. It only works when society is involved.

 

lol.gif Very, very clever what you just did there. lol.gif

 

This is sorta like where you claimed you pay US income taxes. Does your sophistry have no bounds?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2258 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

The above cartoon is grossly ignorant.

 

There are plenty of socialists who offer to pay more in taxes. Just not individually. You see that's the thing with socialism. It only works when society is involved.

 

Is it voluntary when done under threat of violence?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #2259 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

 

Is it voluntary when done under threat of violence?

 

Yeah. What he's basically saying is that he and his fellow socialists are fine "voluntarily" paying more taxes so long as everyone else is brought along to pay more taxes (whether they want to or not.)

 

It was quite clever judo move on his part. And it probably makes sense to people who failed logic.

 

Your point was perfectly valid. I'm curious how many who are calling for higher taxes are not taking any deductions on their tax returns (thus increasing the amount of tax they would pay) and/or sending in additional donations to the US treasury.

 

I'm guessing none.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2260 of 2360

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #2261 of 2360
To say that someone earning 10 times less deserves ten times poorer service is certainly more egalitarian. But is it right?

And still... the writer of the article above disagrees on almost every single point from both Jazzguru and MJ. But because he's attacking liberals on health care, jazzy latches on to him.
post #2262 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

To say that someone earning 10 times less deserves ten times poorer service is certainly more egalitarian. But is it right?

And still... the writer of the article above disagrees on almost every single point from both Jazzguru and MJ. But because he's attacking liberals on health care, jazzy latches on to him.

 

Interesting analysis. Thanks for your opinion.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #2263 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

 

Thanks for your opinion.

Hard to tell these days whether or not you really mean that.  Usually you, MJ, and SDW use that phrase as a not so subtle "**** you."

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #2264 of 2360

Democrats are a case study in unintended consequences.

The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #2265 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Democrats are a case study in unintended consequences.
You mean the unintended consequences of a conservative republican plan? Of course premiums are apt to go up under Obamacare. The entire plan was designed to protect the interests of insurance companies. It provided no more competition to private insurance, which would drive premiums down. It didn't place any limits on premiums increasing.

A public option would have driven private premiums down.

Your criticism of obamacare is preaching to the choir for those of us who know its true origin and purpose.

However. Can you deny the importance of the first tweet, that millions more are now covered that wouldn't have been? Or is that unimportant to you in the face of premiums?
post #2266 of 2360

And thus begins the rats leaving the ship.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2267 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

And thus begins the rats leaving the ship.
Have I ever wavered on my opposition to the Heritage plan vs. the public option? I never got on the ship to begin with. Still... better obamacare than social Darwinismcare (which means "no care" to those same millions).
post #2268 of 2360

The Utopian-Progressive Worldview: Feel Good First, Ask Questions Later:

 

Quote:
The framing of the debate over health care in Utopian-soaked, pie-in-the-sky moral rhetoric (that favors the current administration’s agenda of creating a European-style medical and entitlement system) has been an utter and complete rout by the progressive-Left in this country. Sure, you can still find polls that show the majority of Americans are not in favor of what is loosely termed Obamacare, but the damage has been done. Laws have been passed. The country re-elected a Community Organizer who, with all due respect, possess as much executive experience and real-world business acumen as my Rottweiler Rudy. It should worry you!
 
And most devastating of all: the only thing a proponent of bigger government, more regulation, and countless layers of cumbersome bureaucracy has to do is drop a sanctimonious “So you don’t want everyone to be taken care of?” sound-bite and, in the mind of the average American viewer, they have won the “debate” (term used loosely).

 

 

Quote:
Progressives use the Utopian dream of taking care of every American’s needs (for cheaper, no less!) – a noble and honorable goal – as a weapon to bludgeon their political opponents with. Questions about costs, effects on doctors’ pay, the quality of care patients receive, and the like are trivial matters for “experts” on panels and commissions to figure out after-the-fact.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2269 of 2360
Wow. Another drive-by post from MJ dripping with anti-socialism vitriol, ignoring the fact that the European "entitlement" system has been hugely successful and the American system has been the biggest failure in the modern world. Are we surprised?
post #2270 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Wow. Another drive-by post from MJ dripping with anti-socialism vitriol, ignoring the fact that the European "entitlement" system has been hugely successful and the American system has been the biggest failure in the modern world. Are we surprised?

 

Wow. Instead of addressing the content and claims, tonton makes it about the person posting. Instead of commenting on the content, use the "drive-by post" pejorative to "argue." Are we surprised?

 

P.S. And "dripping with anti-socialism vitriol"? lol.gif


Edited by MJ1970 - 3/14/13 at 6:10am

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2271 of 2360

Ironic complaint there.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #2272 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Wow. Another drive-by post from MJ dripping with anti-socialism vitriol, ignoring the fact that the European "entitlement" system has been hugely successful and the American system has been the biggest failure in the modern world. Are we surprised?

 

When the first sentence of your post has the gem, "...Utopian-soaked, pie-in-the-sky moral rhetoric...", I really don't have to listen to you. Go play on the freeway. Just because the State doesn't want you to do that and might give you a traffic citation doesn't mean it's not your right!

post #2273 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

When the first sentence of your post has the gem, "...Utopian-soaked, pie-in-the-sky moral rhetoric...", I really don't have to listen to you.

 

No one said you have to listen to me anyway. What makes you think I care if you listen to me? What makes you think I really care if you disagree with that characterization of the situation? In fact, I've found that, in general, if you disagree with it, criticize it, insult it, demonize it, etc...it's probably right and good.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Go play on the freeway. Just because the State doesn't want you to do that and might give you a traffic citation doesn't mean it's not your right!

 

1confused.gif

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2274 of 2360

Jesus, MJ, you're the one who suggested that I comment on the content instead of pointing out the hate. Yes, that's suggesting that I listen to you. You suggested it.

 

Have you had a recent stroke?

post #2275 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Jesus, MJ, you're the one who suggested that I comment on the content instead of pointing out the hate. Yes, that's suggesting that I listen to you. You suggested it.

 

I merely pointed out that you didn't.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Have you had a recent stroke?

 

You're in full insult mode this morning. How nice.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #2276 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

...ignoring the fact that the European "entitlement" system has been hugely successful and the American system has been the biggest failure in the modern world.

 

While the American system clearly has problems in extending affordable coverage to all, this statement drips with the kind of ignorance only leftists could take comfort in. I'm not even American, and I'm fully aware of where most modern medical innovation happens in the world today.

 

And it's not Europe.

The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #2277 of 2360

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #2278 of 2360

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #2279 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You mean the unintended consequences of a conservative republican plan? Of course premiums are apt to go up under Obamacare. The entire plan was designed to protect the interests of insurance companies. It provided no more competition to private insurance, which would drive premiums down. It didn't place any limits on premiums increasing.

A public option would have driven private premiums down.

Your criticism of obamacare is preaching to the choir for those of us who know its true origin and purpose.

However. Can you deny the importance of the first tweet, that millions more are now covered that wouldn't have been? Or is that unimportant to you in the face of premiums?

Ah, the new talking point. Check!
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #2280 of 2360

"It didn't place any limits on premiums increasing."

 

Not true. Part of the regulation is that insurers have to show that a minimum percentage of premiums is spent on healthcare costs. 

 

Quote:
Insurers must spend 80% (for individual or small group insurers) or 85% (for large group insurers) of premium dollars on health costs and claims, leaving only 20% or 15% respectively for administrative costs and profits, subject to various waivers and exemptions. If an insurer fails to meet this requirement, there is no penalty, but a rebate must be issued to the policy holder. This policy is known as the 'Medical Loss Ratio'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act

 

So this basically means that when an insurer doubles its premium costs while the total claims don't rise, all the excess money will go back to the policy holder. Although this doesn't directly limits the development of premium costs, the effect is pretty much the same. As premium-payers will get a large part of their premiums back.

 

Also, if the insurance market will function properly, the incentive is to lower the premiums. Due to the new regulations, the incentive for insurers is to have as many policy holders as possible. And in order to attract those, insurers have to compete on premiums first and foremost. Especially when they want to attract healthy policy holders who tend to focus on buying the cheapest policies (because they hardly need care anyways, so the service aspect becomes unimportant).

 

If anyone is interested I could comment from the POV from a Dutch health insurer (which is my field).

 

Some background: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_Netherlands

 

Quote:
“As the Netherlands [is] expanding [its] lead among the best performing countries, the [Euro Health Consumer] Index indicates that the Dutch might have found a successful approach. It combines competition for funding and provision within a regulated framework. There are information tools to support active choice among consumers. The Netherlands [has] started working on patient empowerment early, which now clearly pays off in many areas. And politicians and bureaucrats are comparatively far removed from operative decisions on delivery of Dutch healthcare services!”
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