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The Biggest Threat to Obama's Health Care "Reform" - Reality - Page 10

post #361 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe the other ways have been exhausted and found to be ineffective in "these times". But the fundamental fact still remains that he was peacefully exercising his rights under the constitution. When someone doing so is considered a "terrorist" or "offensive" or even "unwise" act perhaps we have already reached an unacceptable level of tyranny.

He was holding a fucking poster referencing the words "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants." His 'tyrant' is the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Whom he had come to protest.

Was he watching out for sleeper cells of British soldiers? Was he expecting to have to leap to the President's defence? Do you believe that the words of the poster and the gun in his holster were unconnected?

If it isn't an 'unacceptable level of tyranny' that you can't carry a gun into the Capitol building it isn't an 'unacceptable level of tyranny' to question the motives of an armed extreme right wing protester within a kilometre of a man he's calling a tyrant.
post #362 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

P.S. I agree, my own tactics would be different. I would be less likely to "poke the bear" so to speak. But if pushed far enough, who know, I might. And there are some who think that the most patriotic (patriotic to the core, founding principles of this great country) thing to do is to "poke the bear".

And the tyrants don't know when you've been pushed far enough and what you might resort to, hence the watch list.

Then there's the question of the ones who don't belong to a visible group that may be "watched" but sympathize with the tyrannical government philosophy and act on thier own on behalf of the movement.

Must be a nerve wracking job trying to keep track of who might and might not and who they don't know about.
post #363 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

And the tyrants don't know when you've been pushed far enough and what you might resort to, hence the watch list.

I understand why they have watch lists. I just don't agree with it.
post #364 of 2360
" Small businesses are less likely than large employers to be able to provide health insurance as a benefit. At 12 percent, health care is the most expensive benefit paid by U.S. employers, according to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce.
These ballooning dollar figures place a heavy burden on companies doing business in the United States and can put them at a substantial competitive disadvantage in the international marketplace. For large multinational corporations, footing healthcare costs presents an enormous expense. General Motors, for instance, covers more than 1.1 million employees and former employees, and the company says it spent roughly $5.6 billion on healthcare expenses in 2006. GM says healthcare costs add between $1,500 and $2,000 to the sticker price of every automobile it makes. Health benefits for unionized auto workers became a central issue derailing the 2008 congressional push to provide a financial bailout to GM and its ailing Detroit rival, Chrysler.
It is difficult to quantify the precise effect high healthcare costs have had so far on the overall U.S. job market. Health care is one of several factors--entrenched union contracts are another--that make doing business in the United States expensive, and it's difficult to parse the effects of each factor. Moreover, economists disagree on the number of U.S. jobs that have been lost to offshoring--the transfer of business operations across national boundaries to friendlier operating environments. The Princeton economist Alan S. Blinder, in a 2006 Foreign Affairs article, says that judging by data compiled from "fragmentary studies," it is apparent that "under a million service-sector jobs in the United States have been lost to offshoring to date." Blinder goes on to predict that somewhere between 28 million and 42 million U.S. jobs are "susceptible" to offshoring in a future where technology allows the more efficient transfer of jobs. Many other economists, however, have shied away from making such estimates, and some have criticized Blinder's approach.
It is clear, however, that healthcare expenses affect every level of U.S. industry. For large corporations they mean the massive "legacy costs" associated with insuring retired employees. For small business owners they can be even more devastating. "In many places, you have small businesses that simply cannot afford to offer coverage," Sarbanes says. Often, he says, healthcare expenses make it impossible for small business owners to hire candidates they would otherwise desire.
Rival Healthcare Models
Elsewhere in the world, healthcare systems are much less reliant on private sector support--and much less expensive. For example, the U.S. system costs 83 percent more per capita than the Canadian system, where public funds collected through taxes pay for up to 70 percent of healthcare coverage.
"
~ http://www.cfr.org/publication/13325/

So the Canadian government spends 70% of about $4,500 per head a year, that comes to $3,150 compared to $4,380 that the US government is currently spending. The UK government spends $2,550 per head per year. And yet GM is spending upwards of $1,500 per vehicle on healthcare cost!! plus you've got millions broken by medical bills, millions not getting proper care and thousands dying. How fab!

A prime reason why Canadian's spend more than the UK but don't get any more in terms of healthcare is that due to Canada's proximity to the USA it pays doctors etc a higher wage because of the competition from it's neighbor for higher wages.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #365 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

In a socialistic system, the government controls production and distribution of a good or service, and equal access to those goods or services to it's citizens.

An example would be setting wages for the field workers, controlling what gets planted, setting prices for the food, then making the food available to all it's citizens.

OR, government setting wages for doctors and hospitals, controlling what care is made available and what it will cost, sponsoring a public health care insurance program, and making health care available to all it's citizens.

(come on, you didn't think I'd let an opportunity pass to make that point, did you? )

Pretty much the opposite of a laissez-faire system (which means "leave business the hell alone!", loosely)...which is why I have an issue with it. Innovation thrives when folks have incentive, and no other system provides more incentive than capitalism.

This definition is fairly complete and well thought out. ANyone else?

WE are seeing a lot of people talk about how Nazi and Socialist are both extremely negative connotations so it only seems right to get peoples deifnition of Socialist.

Once we determine that it will be easy to see whtehr Nazi vs Socialist is truly a good comparison. So far, I don't see the correlation as being on equal footing. A few more defintions would be good to see. Then we can define Nazi...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #366 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

If Obama's admin keeps getting linked to hare-core abortion and euthanasia advocacy and delivery, those fears probably won't be dying down anytime soon.



Look, I LIVE IN CANADA. While our system does have the advantage of covering everyone, there are plenty of people who are being denied care up here. There are waiting lists and our ERs are as swamped as anywhere in the States, probably more. If you think the lack of competition or lack of a profit incentive creates better health care delivery, you are badly mistaken.

Furthermore, Canada doesn't have ten million unregistered immigrants to think about, or a land border with Central America that will burst at the seams the minute after America adopts universal health care. Canada has one tenth the population of America. Though Canadians crow about single-tier health care and the banning of a parallel private system, we all know the existence of the open U.S. system acts as our own parallel private system.

Simply trying to emulate the Canadian or British systems in America will result in catastrophic failure. Right now America has best-of-class health care that a significant number of citizens can't afford to access. Nationalizing health care in the U.S. will rapidly diminish the quality of care and leave many of the same Americans still unable to access the system because of funding shortages and waiting lists.

The problem is, there will be nowhere for regular people to go once that happens.
The elite will get care and access just as they do now (or fly to other countries for it.)

I googled hare-core abortion and nothing came up so I don't know if you misspelt it but I don't know what it is.

See my post a couple of posts above this one to see how Canada's spending compares to the US.

I don't doubt that Canada's healthcare isn't as good as many would like and I don't doubt that the US provides some excellent healthcare that Canadian's like Briton's are willing to pay out of pocket for if they can afford it. I also don't think a government run healthcare system has to mean the end to excellent private care. It doesn't in the UK and indeed people can and do travel to the US/ India or wherever to get it. I love my private dentist here. She's awesome, much better than a very expensive but none the less very good dentist I had in the US.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #367 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Is being willing to suffer the consequences for living by some particular philosophy such a sick thing? Are you willing to die for your philosophies? I know I'd be willing to, if that's what it took.

There are millions of millions of people alive today because of advances made possible by researchers and organizations who did what they did for personal gain - one of the most honest incentives there is.

It takes lots of school time to be a researcher, and education isn't cheap... that expense has to be paid somehow. Personal gain allows for security, for the individual and for their family. The possibility of personal gain encourages risk taking, and without risk there can be no progress.

You seem to be implying that that would all end if the US had a government run healthcare system as well as private. It wouldn't.

The US government spends about 50% of the R&D spending in the US on healthcare in 'all' it's forms. Without the NIH, NASA etc there'd be a lot less research.

"As of 2003 the NIH was responsible for 28%-about $28 billion- of the total biomedical research funding spent annually in the US, with most of the rest coming from industry"
~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...utes_of_Health

Capitalism won't die because of a government run healthcare system. Has it killed it in the UK, Canada, France , Germany or Japan? Nope, not unless your in the Palin camp. The reality is it's likely to benefit small and large businesses and the private innovation will remain.

And the government does create and inspire-

"By considering the lives extended and the decline in disability rates that resulted from NIH research in these four areas, the authors estimate the economic impact of NIH funding to tax revenues. The total tax benefit is greater than $885 billion over ten years—not bad, considering the NIH budget would be only around $400 to $500 billion over those same ten years at current funding rates. If you consider the extra value of healthier workers to the gross domestic product, the benefit extends to more than $1.3 trillion. The analysis does not consider any economic impacts of the research itself (students and researchers with jobs, equipment and supply industries, etc.), so the benefits are even greater than presented in the article."
~ http://arstechnica.com/science/news/...lity-rates.ars

I've been self employed nearly all of my life and that's were I do best at too. Most of the people I have known have been too. I'm all for that. I just disagree that government can't offer a lot that private individuals can't or won't.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #368 of 2360
Like religion for example, socialism comes in varying flavors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Socialism
Quote:
Democratic socialism is a description used by various socialist movements, tendencies, and organizations, to emphasize the democratic character of their political orientation. The term is sometimes used synonymously with 'social democracy', but many self-identified democratic socialists oppose social democracy, seeing it as capitalist.

Canada tends more towards social Democracy and no, the government doesn't control all that the poster you quoted said.

The Economists Index of Democracy
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2213004/posts
1 Sweden 9.88 Full democracy
2 Norway 9.68 Full democracy
3 Iceland 9.65 Full democracy
4 Netherlands 9.53 Full democracy
5 Denmark 9.52 Full democracy
6 Finland 9.25 Full democracy
7 New Zealand 9.19 Full democracy
8 Switzerland 9.15 Full democracy
9 Luxembourg 9.10 Full democracy
10 Australia 9.09 Full democracy
11 Canada 9.07 Full democracy
12 Ireland 9.01 Full democracy
13 Germany 8.82 Full democracy
14 Austria 8.49 Full democracy
15 Spain 8.45 Full democracy
16 Malta 8.39 Full democracy
17 Japan 8.25 Full democracy
18 United States 8.22 Full democracy
19 Czech Republic 8.19 Full democracy
20 Belgium 8.16 Full democracy

For business,
http://www.ambottawa.um.dk/en/menu/P...nksDenmark.htm
Denmark
Canada
United States

Hmmm.
post #369 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Barney Frank had a question posed by an idiot at his town meeting, and he put the lady in her place.

Q "Why are you supporting this Nazi policy?"

A "On what planet do you spend most of your time?"

After suggesting that it was a great country and that she was free to say what she did, he continued:

"Trying to have a conversation with you would be like arguing with a dining room table."



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_262682.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYlZiWK2Iy8

Amazing! Obama is the first person ever capable of being a nazi, a socialist, a communist, and a fascist, all at the same time.
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post #370 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

Like religion for example, socialism comes in varying flavors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Socialism

Canada tends more towards social Democracy and no, the government doesn't control all that the poster you quoted said.

The Economists Index of Democracy
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2213004/posts
1 Sweden 9.88 Full democracy
2 Norway 9.68 Full democracy
3 Iceland 9.65 Full democracy
4 Netherlands 9.53 Full democracy
5 Denmark 9.52 Full democracy
6 Finland 9.25 Full democracy
7 New Zealand 9.19 Full democracy
8 Switzerland 9.15 Full democracy
9 Luxembourg 9.10 Full democracy
10 Australia 9.09 Full democracy
11 Canada 9.07 Full democracy
12 Ireland 9.01 Full democracy
13 Germany 8.82 Full democracy
14 Austria 8.49 Full democracy
15 Spain 8.45 Full democracy
16 Malta 8.39 Full democracy
17 Japan 8.25 Full democracy
18 United States 8.22 Run by a guy just like Hitler

Look at this list of miserable, tyrannical nations forced to endure socialised medicine by their despotic Hitlerian rulers.

post #371 of 2360
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #372 of 2360
Quote:

That was completely unacceptable. She has no shame.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #373 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

Like religion for example, socialism comes in varying flavors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Socialism

Canada tends more towards social Democracy and no, the government doesn't control all that the poster you quoted said.

The Economists Index of Democracy
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2213004/posts
1 Sweden 9.88 Full democracy
2 Norway 9.68 Full democracy
3 Iceland 9.65 Full democracy
4 Netherlands 9.53 Full democracy
5 Denmark 9.52 Full democracy
6 Finland 9.25 Full democracy
7 New Zealand 9.19 Full democracy
8 Switzerland 9.15 Full democracy
9 Luxembourg 9.10 Full democracy
10 Australia 9.09 Full democracy
11 Canada 9.07 Full democracy
12 Ireland 9.01 Full democracy
13 Germany 8.82 Full democracy
14 Austria 8.49 Full democracy
15 Spain 8.45 Full democracy
16 Malta 8.39 Full democracy
17 Japan 8.25 Full democracy
18 United States 8.22 Full democracy
19 Czech Republic 8.19 Full democracy
20 Belgium 8.16 Full democracy

For business,
http://www.ambottawa.um.dk/en/menu/P...nksDenmark.htm
Denmark
Canada
United States

Hmmm.

All well and good, but what is their criteria for this studies? And what is their definitions being used? Not really my point though. You did not answer the question as stated.

No dictionary definitions. When someone comes to you and says the word socialist, or socialism, what does it mean to you? Your definition may be different than what the dictionary states. Just trying to figure out what the stigma is in peoples minds that would align it with Nazi, or evil. Seems to me that socialism as a basic concept is neither good nor evil, it is all in the implementation. Just as democracy is neither good nor evil.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #374 of 2360
Sorry. misquoted. DELETE.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #375 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post


Anyway, I didn't want to say 'Democrats' because not all the Dems are marching lock step with Obama's health care makeover, and only a vocal few have gone to bat with the leadership's talking points of claiming the town hall protesters are violent, racist thugs.

If you have any links that, quote "and only a vocal few have gone to bat with the leadership's talking points of claiming the town hall protesters are violent, racist thugs." I'd like to see them. That's not my impression but you're welcome to prove me wrong.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #376 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

I don't agree, and the US ranks #8 in crimes per capita:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...mes-per-capita

#6 in assault
#9 in rape
#24 in murder

If gun toting deterred crime, these rates would be lower.

Then we could look at the mass shootings... Va Tech, Columbine... just to name two.

This guy did not need to carry an assault rifle (yeah, assault rifle) to a public area. It raises tension, leading to less dialogue and more fear.

Self defense requires an assault rifle? Sounds like we have more serious problems to deal with, but showing the weapon won't help fix them, it will only increase them.

Eh? Citing those statistics is irrelevant because "open carry" is not currently the norm. My point was that every form of crime that you've listed would be drastically reduced with a well-trained and well-armed citizenry.

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post #377 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

He was holding a fucking poster referencing the words "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants." His 'tyrant' is the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Whom he had come to protest.

Was he watching out for sleeper cells of British soldiers? Was he expecting to have to leap to the President's defence? Do you believe that the words of the poster and the gun in his holster were unconnected?

If it isn't an 'unacceptable level of tyranny' that you can't carry a gun into the Capitol building it isn't an 'unacceptable level of tyranny' to question the motives of an armed extreme right wing protester within a kilometre of a man he's calling a tyrant.

MJ, if the guy had anything on his mind other than openly protesting, he would not be open-carrying. He was hardly a stealthy "sleeper" of some kind. Gain some familiarity with the local laws. It would pay to learn more in this case.

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post #378 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

If you have any links that, quote "and only a vocal few have gone to bat with the leadership's talking points of claiming the town hall protesters are violent, racist thugs." I'd like to see them. That's not my impression but you're welcome to prove me wrong.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennt...sponsible.html

This the type of information that you two are discussing?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #379 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Eh? Citing those statistics is irrelevant because "open carry" is not currently the norm. My point was that every form of crime that you've listed would be drastically reduced with a well-trained and well-armed citizenry.

I just don't see it in practicality. How about all those times when you simply cannot be carrying, such as on a plane, in the pool... what to do when everything goes crazy? Oh, no! I don't have my gun so I am hopeless!

How about spending less money with less risk for bodily harm and teaching the citizenry self-defense and safety? How about working on other areas of society (schools, health care, inequality, etc) and reducing crime in the first place? Little has actually been done to improve our society. Arming everyone would not reduce the criminal urge and therefore would not reduce crime, unless everybody shot everybody else... no people, no crime.

Your plan also has a problem with certain groups in our society for whom it is against their beliefs to kill or really even harm other living things. Quakers and other groups. The Ten Commandments also say Thou Shall Not Kill, but lots of Christians support war and death penalties and the like...

There was a murder at my apartment complex back in the day. Both the attacker and the victim had guns. The victim tried defending himself. Two neighborhood kids got injured in the crossfire; one will never walk again. She was 3 or 4 and was hit by the bullets from the victim's gun (who was trying to defend himself and was well-trained). The victim was in his apartment, the attacker was outside in a playground.

There are social problems that need addressing but America is very adept at ignoring these. Guns are not the solution.

To get back on topic, one of the problems we have is health care and, now, the ignorance and false witness surrounding it. Look at how the town halls are going. Anger. Yelling. Hitler. Our society has lost the ability to discuss.

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #380 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

You did not answer the question as stated.

Not interested in answering your question as asked.
Uninformed knee jerk answers aren't worth crap and I was addressing one.
post #381 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

MJ, if the guy had anything on his mind other than openly protesting, he would not be open-carrying. He was hardly a stealthy "sleeper" of some kind. Gain some familiarity with the local laws. It would pay to learn more in this case.

I didn't call him a sleeper. I was mocking his 'need' to bear arms at such an event.

No, he almost certainly wasn't about to commit an act of violence. It's extremely likely, really, that there was a sniper on him. He was certainly under close observation. After all, he was openly carrying a firearm in the proximity of the President. His intention was to threaten, to ramp up the tension, to send a signal of the ugliest kind. He believes Barack Obama to be a 'tyrant' and his poster was threatening blood should be spilled.

I found it disgusting.
post #382 of 2360
"Obama's health care plan will be written by a committee whose head, John Conyers, says he doesn't understand it. It'll be passed by Congress that has not read it, signed by a president who smokes, funded by a Treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, overseen by a Surgeon General who is obese, and financed by a country that's nearly broke. What could possibly go wrong?" - Rush Limbaugh

Regardless of what you may think of Rush, he does have a point.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #383 of 2360
Oh, goody. Rachel Maddow always makes good points. Can I start posting them here for you to read too?

Oh wait. You're a birther. Never mind.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #384 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Oh, goody. Rachel Maddow always makes good points. Can I start posting them here for you to read too?

Oh wait. You're a birther. Never mind.

Do you disagree with his statement? If so, why?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #385 of 2360
I have just as much faith in my government as you do our military.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #386 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

I have just as much faith in my government as you do our military.

Rational people trust neither.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #387 of 2360
You know who the government is? People. Average American people. Men. Women. Young. Old. They raise families. They go on vacations. The buy groceries. They pay taxes. They struggle with their mortgages like everyone else.

People, my friend. You. Me. Our neighbors.

So get off it!

The same types of average Americans who work for corporations. No different.

You can't tell me you implicitly trust a huge billion dollar corporation and then say you don't trust the government. They both have enormous flaws. They both could use dramatic improvement.

But at the end of the day neither is better than the other. Why? Because it's all run by the same American workforce.

So stop with your constant defaming of the American worker. Ok?
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #388 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

You know who the government is? People. Average American people. Men. Women. Young. Old. They raise families. They go on vacations. The buy groceries. They pay taxes. They struggle with their mortgages like everyone else.

People, my friend. You. Me. Our neighbors.

So get off it!

The same types of average Americans who work for corporations. No different.

You can't tell me you implicitly trust a huge billion dollar corporation and then say you don't trust the government. They both have enormous flaws. They both could use dramatic improvement.

But at the end of the day neither is better than the other. Why? Because it's all run by the same American workforce.

So stop with your constant defaming of the American worker. Ok?

Oh please. First of all, get off the "I'm standing with the American worker" garbage. The federal government does all kinds of things contrary to the interest of the American worker. Bureaucracies look out for themselves first and foremost.

Second, I have never said that I "implicitly trust" any billion-dollar corporation to do anything other than look out for its own interests.

Third, government workers don't pay taxes. They consume taxes. The fact that there is a deduction on their paycheque does not change the fact that they are net recipients of taxes. That doesn't make them any less of a citizen, but it is a fact.

It's funny that the government is now seen by your side having no agenda of its own. Especially since your side spent the last eight years accusing the government of wars-for-oil, 9-11 complicity, world trade manipulation, military-industrial collusion, environmental degradation and more.

But hey, they were just your neighbours looking out for the American worker.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #389 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Oh please. First of all, get off the "I'm standing with the American worker" garbage. The federal government does all kinds of things contrary to the interest of the American worker. Bureaucracies look out for themselves first and foremost.

Oh, now it's garbage eh? So what was all that "if you don't support the government you don't support America" bullshit the GOP and the talking heads crammed down my fucking throat for 8 years? Do you guys even believe the bullshit you spew or is it always politics?

Quote:
Second, I have never said that I "implicitly trust" any billion-dollar corporation to do anything other than look out for its own interests.

Third, government workers don't pay taxes. They consume taxes. The fact that there is a deduction on their paycheque does not change the fact that they are net recipients of taxes. That doesn't make them any less of a citizen, but it is a fact.

So what. What's your point?

Quote:
It's funny that the government is now seen by your side having no agenda of its own. Especially since your side spent the last eight years accusing the government of wars-for-oil, 9-11 complicity, world trade manipulation, military-industrial collusion, environmental degradation and more.

But hey, they were just your neighbours looking out for the American worker.

I never said the government didn't have an agenda. Bush's agenda was removing civil liberties in order to "keep us safe" from the bad guys. This government's agenda is to over-haul our health care system.

Sorry if I find health care reform to be a more worthy "agenda" then those items you listed above. If that offends you so damn much then I'm sorry, there's nothing I can do about it but to continue to support that "agenda".

Again, I'm still not sure what your point is.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #390 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Oh, now it's garbage eh? So what was all that "if you don't support the government you don't support America" bullshit the GOP and the talking heads crammed down my fucking throat for 8 years? Do you guys even believe the bullshit you spew or is it always politics?

Maybe the left should try to make a real argument instead of spewing anger and profanity wherever they tread. I've certainly never said anything of the kind and I don't recall anyone here arguing that. If your life consists of combating talking heads on radio and tv, I would suggest that both sides try to appeal to patriotic and religious causes to justify their positions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

I never said the government didn't have an agenda. Bush's agenda was removing civil liberties in order to "keep us safe" from the bad guys. This government's agenda is to take over our health care system.

Fixed that for you.

Speaking as someone whose country has single payer, you will find that when an insurance company turns you down, you still have other options. When the government says there's no money for your procedure, you're done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Sorry if I find health care reform to be a more worthy "agenda" then those items you listed above. If that offends you so damn much then I'm sorry, there's nothing I can do about it but to continue to support that "agenda".

Nobody is arguing that U.S. reform isn't necessary, but your government is trying to cram hundreds of pages of legislation down without any real debate and even Democratic legislators have said they don't know what they are voting on and don't understand many parts that they have read.

That's not reform. That stands in opposition to both democracy and civil liberties.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #391 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

Not interested in answering your question as asked.
Uninformed knee jerk answers aren't worth crap and I was addressing one.

The question asked for a personal, not dictionary, response. My intent was to get to the emotional core of what people think and respond with, as most people when called a name don't go to the dictionary to look it up and see if they are outraged or not. He gave his personal opinion which fell within the parameters of the question. You respond that it "wasn't worth crap". Good to know that peoples opinions are respected on this board.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #392 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Rational people trust neither.

I am a big fan of "trust, but verify" myself.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #393 of 2360
From a proponent of the health care proposals, a poll showing where roughly 600 citizens stand. It is split by Republican, Democrat and Independent.

http://chppr.iupui.edu/research/healthreformmyths.html
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #394 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

The question asked for a personal, not dictionary, response. My intent was to get to the emotional core of what people think and respond with, as most people when called a name don't go to the dictionary to look it up and see if they are outraged or not. He gave his personal opinion which fell within the parameters of the question. You respond that it "wasn't worth crap". Good to know that peoples opinions are respected on this board.

Unlike some here, I don't have anyone on ignore, I just don't quote those that I feel don't deserve a direct response.

I used you to show that an uninformed opinion is crap especially if those with no opinion on a subject hear the crap and use that to base an opinion on.
A lot if not most of the rightwing Townhallers are a good example of this.

If you want to respect an opinion based on emotion that you know is crap, that's your problem.

The above is my opinion and not any one else's on this board.
post #395 of 2360
Ian Birrell: Why I don't believe that the NHS is sacrosanct

Quote:
Of course, everyone loves the NHS now. It is officially sacrosanct. Our doctors are deities, our health care the envy of the world. And anyone who says anything different is an unpatriotic schmuck who should go and join those losers in the United States. (Although American doctors terrified of litigation would have done all the tests possible on my daughter if I'd sufficient insurance, and would think twice about lying to patients.)

So forgive a harsh dose of reality. I used to share these delusional views, wrapped in a comforting blanket of national pride over Bevan's legacy. But that was before the birth of our daughter sent us hurtling into the hell of our health service. Since then, hours and days and months and years have been spent battling bureaucracy, fighting lethargy and observing inefficiency while all the time guarding against the latest outbreak of incompetence.

Read it.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #396 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

I just don't see it in practicality. How about all those times when you simply cannot be carrying, such as on a plane, in the pool... what to do when everything goes crazy? Oh, no! I don't have my gun so I am hopeless!

How about spending less money with less risk for bodily harm and teaching the citizenry self-defense and safety? How about working on other areas of society (schools, health care, inequality, etc) and reducing crime in the first place? Little has actually been done to improve our society. Arming everyone would not reduce the criminal urge and therefore would not reduce crime, unless everybody shot everybody else... no people, no crime.

Your plan also has a problem with certain groups in our society for whom it is against their beliefs to kill or really even harm other living things. Quakers and other groups. The Ten Commandments also say Thou Shall Not Kill, but lots of Christians support war and death penalties and the like...

There was a murder at my apartment complex back in the day. Both the attacker and the victim had guns. The victim tried defending himself. Two neighborhood kids got injured in the crossfire; one will never walk again. She was 3 or 4 and was hit by the bullets from the victim's gun (who was trying to defend himself and was well-trained). The victim was in his apartment, the attacker was outside in a playground.

There are social problems that need addressing but America is very adept at ignoring these. Guns are not the solution.

To get back on topic, one of the problems we have is health care and, now, the ignorance and false witness surrounding it. Look at how the town halls are going. Anger. Yelling. Hitler. Our society has lost the ability to discuss.

Until some day in the far flung future when we all are immortal or born bulletproof, we have to deal with the present day realities of criminals with guns and other weapons. Yes, human beings are imperfect and subject to emotional reactions instead of common sense when placed in a fight or flight situation. Training helps reduce this. By bringing up the murder that happened in your apartment complex, are you suggesting it would have been better if the victim had no defense whatsoever? I can't see the benefit. Maybe the kids who were hit by bullets would have been injured in either case. Regardless, whose fault is it? The attacker's. Self-defense is everyone's right.

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

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post #397 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

I didn't call him a sleeper. I was mocking his 'need' to bear arms at such an event.

No, he almost certainly wasn't about to commit an act of violence. It's extremely likely, really, that there was a sniper on him. He was certainly under close observation. After all, he was openly carrying a firearm in the proximity of the President. His intention was to threaten, to ramp up the tension, to send a signal of the ugliest kind. He believes Barack Obama to be a 'tyrant' and his poster was threatening blood should be spilled.

I found it disgusting.

It's a form of freedom of speech, in addition to being his right to bear arms. Also, the gun owner was said in an interview with Chris Matthews afterward that he thought Obama was doing an OK job and he was not one of the (more) fringe "birthers". You or I may disagree with the way he chose to voice his opinion but that doesn't mean he has any less of a right to voice it in that fashion. I seriously doubt he's any threat to the president, and any nuts who are inspired to incite violence because of whatever impressions they took away from his appearance are ultimately responsible for their own actions.

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

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post #398 of 2360
If neither party had had a gun, the victim would likely still be alive today and the girl would be walking.

Sure, the attacker could have used another weapon, but it would not have been so easy to conceal; the only other weapon capable of shooting through a window would likely be a crossbow or hunting bow. Your average slingshot won't do.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #399 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

If neither party had had a gun, the victim would likely still be alive today and the girl would be walking.

Sure, the attacker could have used another weapon, but it would not have been so easy to conceal; the only other weapon capable of shooting through a window would likely be a crossbow or hunting bow. Your average slingshot won't do.

A bottle of gasoline with a lit wick would do the job. A pipe-bomb, a thrown knife, driving a car through the wall, etc.

People get very inventive when they want to hurt others.
post #400 of 2360
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