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Apple posts new Snow Leopard, 10.5.8 seeds

post #1 of 59
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Apple has reportedly issued new seeds of Mac OS X Snow Leopard and of Leopard 10.5.8 to developers that, at least in the former case, add functionality that was previously only shown at WWDC.

People familiar with the updates to the two in-development releases say the Snow Leopard seed, 10A394, officially provides just compatibility, reliability and security fixes but appears to give developers access to Expose's integration with the Dock.

As demonstrated by Apple executive Phil Schiller earlier this month, the feature lets users click and hold on an app's Dock icon to show the windows relating to that app in equal-sized, organized tiles. The simple change makes it much easier to find a particular window for a project, for example, without having to invoke a specific Expose shortcut. They can also choose to view a selected window at full size to determine if the content inside is what they want.

It's also said that a new Xcode 3.2 build has been released in tandem with the Snow Leopard build.

Those aware of the new seed for 10.5.8 claim that it's now advanced four builds from its previous state, to 9L20. The company appears to be quickly winding up development as it supposedly hasn't mentioned any remaining known bugs and has fixed just a few prior issues, such as problems with using auto-complete on CalDAV servers in iCal, Image Capture's support for large files, and syncing Address Book with MobileMe.

The Mac maker now seems to be asking developers to focus their testing on low-level components like graphics drivers, power management and storage.

Recently, AppleInsider learned that Apple is giving interim Leopard patches nicknames based on ancient gods and refers to 10.5.8 as Loki, though those in the know say Apple hasn't mentioned the name to developers.
post #2 of 59
PLEASE get 10.5.8 done and dusted asap! these bluetooth connection lost issues are killing me!
post #3 of 59
The new SL seed is quite nice, indeed. While I think the overall system performance has improved I can’t be certain, but I can tell that Exposé has gotten a lot more useful... and I don’t mean just the in-app Exposé feature.

The speed in which Exposé executes is faster and the way it groups windows is incredibly more intelligent than before. No longer will a smaller window be scaled down to a point which makes it impossible to read. Now all the windows will smaller or larger to allow for a more organized look.

Also, the text is now at the bottom of each window and a bright blue border appears with a mouse-over. As you can see in the picture minimized windows will appear as large thumbnails under non-minimized windows. If you look closely you can see a very subtle line dividing the active windows from the minimized windows.

(click image for 1280x800 screenshot)
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post #4 of 59
It is indeed very nice, Solipsism.

I haven't downloaded yet. Will do so when I get a persistent internet connection for my MacBook Pro.

Looking forward to the changes, and am glad to see its at a later bug-fixing stage. It seems they were just consolidating Dock Exposé before they released it to the general developer community.

Overall, I'm quite impressed with Snow Leopard.
post #5 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyboy View Post

PLEASE get 10.5.8 done and dusted asap! these bluetooth connection lost issues are killing me!

Which issues are these? What's losing connection?

Did you apply the bluetooth firmware update?
post #6 of 59
Too bad Snow Leopard isn't coming out till September. Sounds like it is ready now. I'd be a beta tester if they allow non-ADC users to download and install it.
post #7 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by PG4G View Post

It is indeed very nice, Solipsism.

I haven't downloaded yet. Will do so when I get a persistent internet connection for my MacBook Pro.

Looking forward to the changes, and am glad to see its at a later bug-fixing stage. It seems they were just consolidating Dock Exposé before they released it to the general developer community.

Overall, I'm quite impressed with Snow Leopard.

Frequent Exposé users can probably tell from my image that much has improved with the layout, but you'll notice the change in speed and motion is far superior than before.

Also, it updates through Software Update as ~665MB file. I hope that continues until GM.
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post #8 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Frequent Exposé users can probably tell from my images that much has improved with the layout, but you'll notice the change is speed and motion right away.

Also, it updates through Software Update as ~665MB file. I hope that continues until GM.

Yay solip! good good to hear, that's always been a thought of mine when using Exosé...
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post #9 of 59
Hopefully 10.5.8 fixes problems with sleeping MacBooks and MB Pros that have 3rd party SSDs installed.
post #10 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Frequent Exposé users can probably tell from my image that much has improved with the layout, but you'll notice the change in speed and motion is far superior than before.

Also, it updates through Software Update as ~665MB file. I hope that continues until GM.

Regarding going through software update, I agree. I saw that and was very glad I didn't have to download another 6GB file.

And regarding Exposé, I can see the much improved layout, yes.

I'm suspecting that a) their layout algorithm wasn't quite up to scratch when they disked the WWDC version and b) they would have just built the implementation.

With the ramp-up to WWDC, the Apple guys have a lot of work on their plate and testing a new feature wasn't exactly easy under the constraints. I can appreciate that, and am glad as a developer they held back.

Quote:
Too bad Snow Leopard isn't coming out till September. Sounds like it is ready now. I'd be a beta tester if they allow non-ADC users to download and install it.

Yes, in all honesty, I haven't found any bugs. SL is very, very stable. I moved my MacBook Pro and Air to it, and all iPhone development is now done with it.

Nevertheless, a two month bug-find-and-fix party seems like a brilliant idea, and you'll be pleased with the improved quality. Leopard's release was, sadly, somewhat premature. Until 10.5.3, Leopard was close to unusable. Apple's current movements seem focused on "better, faster, smaller, simpler, stabler." In a software sense, each of these complement each other. Wait, and they may never have to release 10.6.1

As for why they don't allow non-ADC testers? Perhaps that's due to Apple trying to ensure that they don't release a product until they believe its good enough in their eyes. They won't want people complaining about software they installed, blaming Apple, when Apple clearly placed a "BETA" tag on it.

Some self-righteous idiots never learn.
post #11 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by PG4G View Post

Yes, in all honesty, I haven't found any bugs. SL is very, very stable. I moved my MacBook Pro and Air to it, and all iPhone development is now done with it.

I find it stable enough to use as my main OS, but there enough bugs that keep it from going gold.
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post #12 of 59
I am NOT upgrading when they have the "Dionysus" dot release.
post #13 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I find it stable enough to use as my main OS, but there enough bugs that keep it from going gold.

Let's hope Apple feels the same way.
post #14 of 59
FYI. The developer preview distributed at WWDC was 10A380.

Just posting it because it bugged me that it wasn't mentioned anywhere in the article.

Yeah. I'm picky.
post #15 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The new SL seed is quite nice, indeed. While I think the overall system performance has improved I cant be certain, but I can tell that Exposé has gotten a lot more useful... and I dont mean just the in-app Exposé feature.

The speed in which Exposé executes is faster and the way it groups windows is incredibly more intelligent than before. No longer will a smaller window be scaled down to a point which makes it impossible to read. Now all the windows will smaller or larger to allow for a more organized look.

Also, the text is now at the bottom of each window and a bright blue border appears with a mouse-over. As you can see in the picture minimized windows will appear as large thumbnails under non-minimized windows. If you look closely you can see a very subtle line dividing the active windows from the minimized windows.

(click image for 1280x800 screenshot)


Does the new Expose for all applications display windows in different spaces? Currently, it does not - it is space specific.
post #16 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I find it stable enough to use as my main OS, but there enough bugs that keep it from going gold.

Don't get me wrong, I don't use anything hardcore, so I haven't expected bugs, and I don't do any Mac development (yet!) so I wouldn't know any API bugs that exist.

Quote:
Let's hope Apple feels the same way.

I totally agree. Just because I can't see the bugs doesn't mean they don't exist.
post #17 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cubert View Post

Does the new Expose for all applications display windows in different spaces? Currently, it does not - it is space specific.

And I mean Dock Expose as well as plain old Expose.
post #18 of 59
Were 10.5.8 to be released soon, then a 10.5.9 release following Snow Leopard would become rather likely.
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post #19 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by PG4G View Post

Nevertheless, a two month bug-find-and-fix party seems like a brilliant idea, and you'll be pleased with the improved quality.

It's not just testing though - there's a bunch of stuff that isn't 64-bit yet, and resolution independence isn't there yet (so I've heard).
post #20 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The new SL seed is quite nice, indeed. While I think the overall system performance has improved I can’t be certain, but I can tell that Exposé has gotten a lot more useful... and I don’t mean just the in-app Exposé feature.

The speed in which Exposé executes is faster and the way it groups windows is incredibly more intelligent than before. No longer will a smaller window be scaled down to a point which makes it impossible to read. Now all the windows will smaller or larger to allow for a more organized look.

Also, the text is now at the bottom of each window and a bright blue border appears with a mouse-over. As you can see in the picture minimized windows will appear as large thumbnails under non-minimized windows. If you look closely you can see a very subtle line dividing the active windows from the minimized windows.

This has been public knowledge based on the WWDC demo and the information on Apple's website. What's fascinating to see though is the UI for minimised Windows, which I hadn't seen before (there was just a bullet point for it on the Snow Leopard feature list) - so thanks for the screen shot. Sadly few people seem to have bothered to take much notice or comprehend the significance of these changes and have trotted out the minor enhancements line.

These UI enhancements are significant, useful and will make a great difference for day to day use. I for one am very excited. Exposé has been the same in 2003, so this is a welcome upgrade. With filenames on by default, finding text files will at last be easy, especially with zoom in Exposé.

The only feature I would have liked to see is close boxes (ala dashboard widgets) to quickly clean up clutter.

Snow Leopard is heading to under-promise and over deliver in a major way. Now Leopard is pretty snappy on new machines, if those benchmarks Apple have given are even half accurate I will be grinning broadly from ear to ear come September.

The Mac is in a very good place right now. Well done to Bertrand and the team!

Edit: Apple will obviously overhaul their UI at some point (Aqua was introduced to the world on January 2000) and introduce a tablet (which would benefit hugely from res independence) in the one to two years. It makes sense to tackle resolution independence then, so all app developers can kill two birds with one stone. New UI + resolution independent safe. Apple redoing their UI won't be like when Microsoft redo the Windows UI (a few crayons and a colour wheel). It will be an incredibly detailed, intense, iterative, multi-year effort involving many artists, usability experts. And when they are done they will have something that absolutely sets the the standard for years and years to come. Aqua took over 18 months to complete. Apple doesn't take UI lightly, they have high standards and set themselves an incredibly high bar to reach. Now the company is richer and has more resources than ever before in its history, those standards will be even higher. And don't rule out something revolutionary either. Look at some of the patent applications coming out (3D environments etc).
post #21 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

It's not just testing though - there's a bunch of stuff that isn't 64-bit yet, and resolution independence isn't there yet (so I've heard).

Resolution Independence was never touted as a feature for Snow Leopard, and will definitely not be ready in the release timeframe.

As for 64-bit, most of the actual OS is now 64-bit. There are a few exceptions, eg iTunes, but otherwise, 64-bit top-to-bottom. iTunes will require a Cocoa based release for Snow Leopard. I'm holding out for a new release of iTunes (perhaps called "iTunes X") at the release of September Music event.

Those claiming this release doesn't have a 64bit kernel on all compatible hardware... I believe they're referring to builds before 10A380. I was led to believe the kernel is now 64bit default on all compatible hardware.
post #22 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by PG4G View Post

Resolution Independence was never touted as a feature for Snow Leopard, and will definitely not be ready in the release timeframe.

Resolution Independence was touted as a feature for Leopard (10.5.0), so it's still late.
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post #23 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post

Resolution Independence was touted as a feature for Leopard (10.5.0), so it's still late.

Perhaps so, but Apple reserves the right to remove features advertised before it ships...

And you do realize how hard it is to actually do resolution independence?
post #24 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post

Resolution Independence was touted as a feature for Leopard (10.5.0), so it's still late.

But it was never touted as a feature for Snow Leopard, AFAIC remember. And it would not be the first time Apple removes a feature because it is not deemed to be ready (or helpful in the current state) for the end user.
post #25 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

It's not just testing though - there's a bunch of stuff that isn't 64-bit yet, and resolution independence isn't there yet (so I've heard).

Well to my knowledge, all new coding is done (feature complete). So if there's a feature that isn't in there, its not going to be in there. If there's something that isn't 64-bit yet, then its not going to be when its released. From what I've seen in the past, a 2-3 month bug squash is pretty normal before a major OS release. Considering they do this for dot dot updates too, its amazing its not longer.

If its something like iTunes, that can be released at any time. Thats not attached to the OS anyways.
post #26 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by PG4G View Post


And you do realize how hard it is to actually do resolution independence?

Tell us how hard it is to "do" resolution independence.
post #27 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The new SL seed is quite nice, indeed. While I think the overall system performance has improved I cant be certain, but I can tell that Exposé has gotten a lot more useful... and I dont mean just the in-app Exposé feature.

The speed in which Exposé executes is faster and the way it groups windows is incredibly more intelligent than before. No longer will a smaller window be scaled down to a point which makes it impossible to read. Now all the windows will smaller or larger to allow for a more organized look.

Also, the text is now at the bottom of each window and a bright blue border appears with a mouse-over. As you can see in the picture minimized windows will appear as large thumbnails under non-minimized windows. If you look closely you can see a very subtle line dividing the active windows from the minimized windows.

(click image for 1280x800 screenshot)

I thought QuickTime had a new icon? It shows in your dock as the current icon. Maybe this will be fixed in a later build?
post #28 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by kim kap sol View Post

Tell us how hard it is to "do" resolution independence.

... I'm going to imagine you didn't say that...
post #29 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


(click image for 1280x800 screenshot)

Nice Transmission icon there in the dock
post #30 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post



Where's the image of the Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano?
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post #31 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboytronic View Post

Which issues are these? What's losing connection?

Did you apply the bluetooth firmware update?

lost connections on my new bluetooth mouse. and sometimes takes an age to wake up. have had to keep my apple mouse of the desktop as a result. to make matters worse it works flawlessly under bootcamp windows the bluetooth firmware update wasn't for my hardware. it's definitely a software issue. i tried going back to 10.5.6 but it didn't make a significant difference. seems others have been having problems and it's on the fixes list. this is the first time i've had a serious issue with a late edition update. praying it will be out in a few weeks and all fixed

PLEASEEE!
post #32 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by kim kap sol View Post

Tell us how hard it is to "do" resolution independence.


can you do this ???
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post #33 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by PG4G View Post

Resolution Independence was never touted as a feature for Snow Leopard, and will definitely not be ready in the release timeframe.

As for 64-bit, most of the actual OS is now 64-bit. There are a few exceptions, eg iTunes, but otherwise, 64-bit top-to-bottom. iTunes will require a Cocoa based release for Snow Leopard. I'm holding out for a new release of iTunes (perhaps called "iTunes X") at the release of September Music event.

Those claiming this release doesn't have a 64bit kernel on all compatible hardware... I believe they're referring to builds before 10A380. I was led to believe the kernel is now 64bit default on all compatible hardware.

Graphics card have three components, under 10A380, 2 of the 3 components for supporting the Intel x3100 are still 32bit. I hope that it is due to 'yet to be finished' rather than Apple settling for a half-baked compromise. I'm going to give 394 a go when I wake up tomorrow - and see what it is like.
post #34 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by PG4G View Post

As for 64-bit, most of the actual OS is now 64-bit. There are a few exceptions, eg iTunes, but otherwise, 64-bit top-to-bottom.

Try doing "About this Mac" and click "more info" and then sort the Applications by the 64-bit column. There's a few things at least that look like they could/should be 64 but aren't.
post #35 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cubert View Post

Does the new Expose for all applications display windows in different spaces? Currently, it does not - it is space specific.

I don’t use Spaces so I hope I understand your query, but you may have to reword and give a specific example with detailed setup instructions for me to fully grasp. To test what I think you asked I started Spaces and put a bump of my running in it, then I gave them set spaces with Mail getting the “Every Space” slot. When I switches spaces only the apps for each space showed up in the set spaces with Mail showing up in all of them in the use of the window and while executing Exposé.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post

Were 10.5.8 to be released soon, then a 10.5.9 release following Snow Leopard would become rather likely.

The last PPC based Mac, a Power Mac G5, was discontinued in August 2006. That will be just over 3 years when Snow Leopard releases. While 3 years is usually about the time Apple gives for update support those machines were expensive and can still be useful so it is my belief that they will have one more point release for Leopard after the SL hits. I really don’t have anything concrete to back that that up, it’s just a feeling, but I think we will get to 10.5.9 for Leopard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

It's not just testing though - there's a bunch of stuff that isn't 64-bit yet, and resolution independence isn't there yet (so I've heard).

The 64-bit stuff is pretty small at this point and I think the only difference it would make at this point would be Apple being able to market the OS was being completely 64-bit compatible. RI is so far from complete that it shouldn’t even be speculated until we start talking about 10.7.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PG4G View Post

I believe they're referring to builds before 10A380. I was led to believe the kernel is now 64bit default on all compatible hardware.

I still can’t start up with a 64-bit kernel on a machine with an IGP and System Profile backs that up (which I should have looked for first0 stating that no 64-bit kernel and extensions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post

Resolution Independence was touted as a feature for Leopard (10.5.0), so it's still late.

Late for Leopard, but as previous stated not late for SL. They did state on their Leopard page prior to launching, "All features of Leopard are subject to change.” This happens so we shouldn’t ever get our expectations too high about Beta software. I recently did that with Safari 4 Beta’s tabs-on-top feature. C’est la vie


Quote:
Originally Posted by macxpress View Post

I thought QuickTime had a new icon? It shows in your dock as the current icon. Maybe this will be fixed in a later build?

I haven’t seen any new QuickTime icon in SL. I’m guessing that the video we saw was from someone who altered his icons.


Quote:
Originally Posted by success View Post

Nice Transmission icon there in the dock

I have no idea what you’re talking about.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Where's the image of the Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano?

Buggati Veyron is simply the coolest car ever.
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post #36 of 59
I'd wish they release Quicktime X... I'd love to see hardware-decoding of h.264.
I'm running the SL update now on my 13" Macbook Pro.
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post #37 of 59
OK, how about read + write access to FTP in the Finder?
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post #38 of 59
Exposé looks brilliant.
post #39 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by DHagan4755 View Post

OK, how about read + write access to FTP in the Finder?

The network drive handling is just as bad as always. Beachballs up the wazoo.
post #40 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by PG4G View Post

Regarding going through software update, I agree. I saw that and was very glad I didn't have to download another 6GB file.

And regarding Exposé, I can see the much improved layout, yes.

I'm suspecting that a) their layout algorithm wasn't quite up to scratch when they disked the WWDC version and b) they would have just built the implementation.

With the ramp-up to WWDC, the Apple guys have a lot of work on their plate and testing a new feature wasn't exactly easy under the constraints. I can appreciate that, and am glad as a developer they held back.



Yes, in all honesty, I haven't found any bugs. SL is very, very stable. I moved my MacBook Pro and Air to it, and all iPhone development is now done with it.

Nevertheless, a two month bug-find-and-fix party seems like a brilliant idea, and you'll be pleased with the improved quality. Leopard's release was, sadly, somewhat premature. Until 10.5.3, Leopard was close to unusable. Apple's current movements seem focused on "better, faster, smaller, simpler, stabler." In a software sense, each of these complement each other. Wait, and they may never have to release 10.6.1

As for why they don't allow non-ADC testers? Perhaps that's due to Apple trying to ensure that they don't release a product until they believe its good enough in their eyes. They won't want people complaining about software they installed, blaming Apple, when Apple clearly placed a "BETA" tag on it.

Some self-righteous idiots never learn.

I've found a bug; when I add British English from localisation and remove all the other languages, I reboot, click on spotlight and find that the results come up in Japanese:

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