Apple, other phone makers agree on standard charger for Europe - Page 4

After the connectors get standardized the transformer part will be in the wall or replace your lighter in the car. The USB can detect what voltage amps and watts. Hotels will have extra cables. You'll replace some sockets in your house with one plug 120v and the other low voltage with a USB plug. Wouldn't this be simple? Think about led lights and all low voltage electrical equipment.

I'm saying that a cable (or adapter) with TWO connectors costs more than adding ONE full sized USB connector to the charger.


A point you miss when you say that Apple's way is less efficient than the EU way.

Frankly the EU standard is butt stupid.

They just standardized on USB 2.0 Micro in 2010 with USB 3.0 Micro on the horizon making all these new chargers obsolescent and unable to provide higher power (150mA vs 100MA low single unit load, 900mA vs 500 mA max load) for faster charging AND allows manufacturers to make chargers that require a separate data cable because one end can be embedded in the adapter itself rather than forced to terminate as a full sized USB plug (to save a few cents).

What they SHOULD have done was standardized on a full sized USB 3.0 port on the charger around the time 3.0 comes out (you know, like 2010) and let the phone companies supply the right cable. Most would supply a USB 2.0 micro cable to USB 2 full sized A anyway but if they wanted to do a dock like Apple, it's not another connector on the phone. Or choose to use the USB 3.0 micro connector on their phones.

Same outcome: fewer power adapters in land fills with 1 fewer cord and uses a standard with a higher data rate for syncing and higher power for quicker recharges that is backward compatible with existing USB 2.0 devices with the right cable (like the existing phones that have a USB 2.0 mini).

The higher cost for the adapters is offset by the fact that phone companies won't be including them for free anymore with their phones AND the fact that a gazillion USB 2.0 adapters wont be hitting the landfills sometime in 2015.

Bloody brilliant thinking on the part of the EU. The only GOOD thing you can say about it is that a micro USB 3.0 connector PROBABLY meets their requirement. As long as the final micro 3.0 connector retains its 2.0 compatible section anyway.

I already have 3 Apple chargers in my house, I can use the same charger to charge my wife's Motorola, Navman and my Kensington battery using a standard Mini USB cable, I can charge the three Bluetooth headsets in my house using a standard micro USB cable then I can charge my two iPhones and an iPod by plugging in an Apple cable.

Using the Kensington battery I can charge my iPhone using any Mini USB cable whether it is in a car or attached to a PC.

The only phone or phone related object in my house which can't be charged using standard cables and chargers I already have is a Nokia N82 which has a micro USB port but cannot charge from it.

I have dozens of useless chargers. Good news for mother earth.

9

That's really cool, I wasn't aware that people were actually going to be making use of the extra pins.

Like I said before, I'm not against the concept. But I'm doubtful that the numbers will work out so favorably. I'm willing to bet, human nature being what it is, that the numbers are much worse than that long term.


I said the same thing in two posts. The chargers will have to be built to handle the max current needed to charge the biggest batteries in the fastest time. That will waste energy. None of these devices is perfect. And as always, people will leave them plugged in. So bigger rechargers used for smaller batteries will suck more current that smaller chargers would.

There are ways around this, but it costs more.

I believe they rushed this, and haven't taken everything into account, such as Vinea's statement that they should have waited and gone to USB 3.

That was a licensed system. It seems that inductive charging shouldn't need to be a licensed thing. Nokia is supposedly working on one that charges from stray radio waves, but I don't know if that can really scale up to useable current.


An open standard is nice. However, I really don't like how GSM based signals interfere with a lot of audio and equipment and telephones. It will also induce audible clicks into nearby headphones, connected or otherwise.

While that might be a rationale, it is disingenuous to suggest that such integration uses would not be possible under the USB standard. One of the examples was the game controller. There is nothing to preclude the use of the USB connector in achieving a similar aim. How else are the many games controllers connected to a PC?

You can't prove this. Pure speculation. For the past year Nokia has been standardizing their products. USB charging is now quite common place for BT headsets, and phones. I do not see the price suddenly skyrocketing to accommodate this.

Unified chargers. Unified currency.

Man. Europe is totally winning.

Another Socialist argument rears its ugly head. How about the world is winning? Can't think past making a fast buck to realize this I guess.

Except on 80% of the phones out there (the non-Apple ones), you'll just need the two . The Micro-USB to USB cable that plugs into your PC and your power charger and the USB to wall plug (as shown in one of the pictures in the thread). Now do you see the point?

If you expand your view outside the Apple zone, this makes tons of sense and the fact that Apple joins the standard seems to indicate that it makes sense to Apple as well.

Regs, Jarkko

This is an article about EU, not the US




Did I?

Yes, but they still charged you the same, and took out the dock, power charger, and video cables.


So USB chargers are cheap at the moment because no one needs to buy one?

Isn't that a bit thick? Standardisation of a power socket (as in this case) would limit technology? Come on, give it a rest. Yes this standard was not devised by Apple, but even Apple seems to acknowledge that it's a good standard by adopting it. It even has a plausible chance of making many phone vendor forego a second "data" port and use one port for data and charging, thus saving the environment and the users a lot of hassle.

Will this stop wireless charging development? Why would it? Will it stop data connectivity development? Why would it? Will it make consumers lives easier by allowing cross-vendor charger compatibility? YES!

It's incredible how such a clearly beneficial standard for most users causes 100+ comments just because it wasn't devised by Apple and/or was by the E.U (epitomy of socialism for some).

Regs, Jarkko

I understand perfectly well what you are talking about. Wireless/cordless whatever you want to call it, is essentially inductive charging. And I'm telling you that it's horrendously inefficient. I don't care if you're too lazy to plug a wire in, the fact is that the wired method is more efficient.

Well, the EU does have the WEEE regulations to try and prevent electronics like chargers going to landfill. So at least some of them will be recycled. Anyway, short term pain for long term gain.


Oh, and for you guys complaining about the "EU" being stupid, this is not an EU directive! Read the article carefully, you will notice it says "EU backed". This is the manufacturers doing it off their own back (with some EU encouragement), the manufacturers came up with the standard! (see this article)

You are massively overstating the potential drawbacks of this idea.

Whilst this is true, the difference in efficiency will be very small. It's more in the raw materials that savings could be made with smaller chargers requiring smaller magnetic components and transistors. But the difference isn't that huge if you compare a 100 mA rated switch mode PSU to a 1 A one.

In addition (and I pretty much totally agree with Mr H.'s points) I don't know if any of you have tested a power brick recently. All the recent ones I have tested use essentially no power when they are not actually charging something. So this problem has already been addressed.

bingo

You hit the nail on the head, but this is not indicative to all Apple product users. Just the majority in this forum. Melgross, and Solpism do not fall into this category. You have very reasonable debates with them I find.

Interestingly, the Nokia charger was a fairly de-facto standard in the UK for a while. Everyone had one, and other devices started using them too. (A friend of mine had a wireless mouse that used a Nokia charger). If you had a Nokia phone, chances are you'd always be able to find someone with a compatible charger wherever you went.

However, I'm very glad of the push for an actual standard like this. I really hope the iPhone actually gets a micro-USB port added, next to its Dock connector, rather than just an adaptor. Doubt it though


I think that the new standard would require they bundle it for free. They wouldn't be compliant if they merely sold it as an extra.

Amorya

Sorry if I came out stating "all Apple users" (I'm one as well). Not the intent, sorry. I realise it's an Apple fan forum and that most user's aren't as one-eyed as some here. It just baffled me that a standard that is proposed by practically all phone vendors (endorsed by EU) would cause 100+ posts claiming it's a bad idea to have a universal charger. Seems like the only reasons were, that it wasn't Apple's idea and it's endorsed by EU. I'm still dumbfounded by how some allow themselves to be blinded by fanatical fandom.

I for one have seen the benefits of a univeral charger. The Nokia charging plug is the de-facto standard that you can fairly easily find while "out there". On my travels around the world (my work takes me around 6-10 times/year), the only place I may ever have had a problem finding a charger to borrow is in the US and Canada. It's saved my behind on several occasions. It also helps to have only two simple plugs (standard+miniturized) for all phone models for over 10 years running to achieve de-facto standardism. Now we have an even better chance to get a truly global charger standard for our mobile devices and it'll just make things better for all of us!

Regs, Jarkko

I've read that those sockets in the house for electricity are standardized as well and look what a mess that has made for industry!

Yes, when USB3 provides higher data rates AND power. IF you're mandating that a connector MUST be on a phone. Whether that connector is obsolescent or not.

Fortunately USB3 micro looks to be compatible with USB2 micro if a little awkward and it's not a required standard anyway.

Moro, moro Jarkko,

My point exactly. When I travel now, I simply take my CA-126, and I am set. I can connect to my phone and charge a headset at the same time. Not to mention doing just a bit for the environment. How Socialistic of me, not to mention that the idea of a unified charger didn't come from Apple first, so it can't be that good.

I don't think anyone is against the general idea of having a standard phone charger. They should have done that long ago. I think they are critical of this specific plan. Also critical of people of who call for Apple to abandon it's highly successful dock connector. You cannot be mad at Apple for having the forsight to create a proprietary connector that has been proven so successful.

Ah, my bad. All the other sites are reporting it as a "EU Mandate".


Actually, I'm massively overstating what the agreement is. Which turns out to be nothing since it's non-binding and can be met with an adapter. Which is why Apple agreed to sign on. It's nothing more than a PR move.

But if you WERE going to mandate something then USB3 is the way to go and you do so by mandating the chargers all provide a full sized USB3 connector port.

USB 3 will happen when it happens and will be backwards compatible with USB 2. Why would manufacturers voluntarily take on the extra cost early? How could the EU mandate they use USB 3 when every other industry doesn't have to use it? Those devices are just as likely to end up in landfill. Furthermore, a USB 3 charger with a micro usb port would meet this new standard given its backwards compatibility. In the meantime, chargers will still be made and tossed when a universal standard is finally adopted. At least the USB 2 chargers will still work when USB 3 comes out (unlike the various proprietary chargers which will be obselete).

Your solution would also not be universal, as you would still have to supply the correct cable (of course meeting this standard with an adaptor amounts to the same thing). For a universal solution, you have to control the end that is plugging into the phone.

Your suggestion could be used in addition to the standard the manufacturers agreed upon, but it would not replace it (ie. all phones must be able to accept a micro usb plug and all chargers will feature a full size usb port, sold with or without the usb to micro usb cable).

Sadly the Nokia example actually demonstrate how much this is needed. Although they often use the same plug for handsets, the voltage the phones require has changed often. If you actually look at the embossed print on the charger you will find that they are different - recent examples include 3.7v and 5.0v. I have had a number of experiences of people claiming that their phone battery doesn't hold its charge anymore only to find that they have been using a 3.7v charger on a phone which requires 5.0v, even though the connectors are identical.

The main thing that amazes me about the comments here is how many people oppose this clearly sensible proposal simply on the political grounds that it is endorsed by the EU and smacks to them of "socialism". This is such a blinkered approach to the world, but is typical of when political dogma is allowed to run roughshod over common sense. Please try and cut out the political dogma, people, and open your minds instead!

Yep. And a whole new industry at that for travellers!

I've been glad that RJ-11, RJ-45 and Wi-Fi are de-facto global standards for networking nowdays so I don't have to carry multiple phone wall adaptors for my V.24bis modem!

Could we get Apple to propose a new 360 Volt power socket (not US or EU voltage to be on the safe side) and get it to become a world standard? It must be made to have at least 5 connectors (2 phases, ground + 2 spare for just in case we need an additional phase and something else). That would be truly great and get tons of support!

Regs, Jarkko

If I read the spec correctly, it mandates the charger and the phone to fulfill USB 2.0 requirements. I didn't see (may mean I'm blind as well) any mention, that they couldn't be 3.0 compliant as well as long as they support 2.0. So am I missing something (quite possible)? Also they are aware of USB 3.0, they just don't want to enforce new tech, when it's not required (for charging that is). Here's a quote directly from the spec: "USB 3.0 will also be considered in future versions of this document."

Here's the spec BTW so people don't have to guess at things. It allows for up to 900mA of current (USB 3 levels) at the current Spec revision:
http://members.omtp.org/Lists/ReqPub...ity%20v1.0.pdf

And another BTW: The cable must be detachable from the charger and is recommended to be of USB A type that goes also directly into a PCs USB port.

Regs, Jarkko

Respect! Just shows how poor the reporting of this has been - I haven't seen this key fact stated ANYWHERE and personally I see this as one of the best and most significant aspects of the proposal. In fact the requirement for a USB-A type connector on the charger is right up-front in the proposal, together with a requirement for chargers to be high efficiency, low no-load devices. It also says "User should be able to charge their (device) whilst using the same connector for data transfer to/from PC"

Clearly it will now be a no-brainer for Apple to support this proposal - they already do, particularly given that the proposal provides for non-compliance at one end (but presumably not both) of the cable if there is a very good reason.

There is also a picture on page 12 of the proposal that very clearly shows a charger with a USB-A connector on it, a cable with a USB-A connector on one end and a USB micro-B connector on the other, and a mobile phone with a USB micro connector on it.

Naah. That would require bloggers and reporters to actually work instead of cutting and pasting press releases and other reporter's texts.

I was actually expecting someone in the community to have done the 10 minutes of Googling and reading of the spec that it took to find out the facts. But I guess I also fall into that latter category myself. But isn't it surprising how many posts it takes for someone to actually go and look for the facts? I propably wouldn't have if the discussion hadn't been so long and started to repeat itself.

So here it (+ some other stuff) is in a nutshell:

The phone vendors and their Open Mobile Terminal Platform initiative has defined a Universal Charging Solution (UCS), which requires:

a) Micro-USB connector on the phone
b) USB-A connector on the charger
c) Up to 900mA of current (as per USB 3.0 spec)
d) Full USB 2.0 compliance
e) The vendors have pledged to be compliant by Jan 1st 2012

The extras:
f) EU has endorsed it and will become an EU norm
g) Endorsed by the US CTIA (does that help the acceptance on this forum at all?)
h) If the vendors hadn't done it themselves, the EU would have created such a standard and enforced it
i) EU is looking for similar standards for ALL portable devices, including laptops, but the scope and timetable is still open.

Regs, Jarkko

Thanks for the extra info. Shame so-called journalists couldn't do what you did.

What evidence do you have for that? PC games controllers are simpler.

It's pretty clear that the industry doesn't agree with you, otherwise they wouldn't have made such a big deal over licensing Apple's connector.

Right, they're SOOO much better there.





Yes, you did.

There won't be any less rechargers in use after this goes into effect, and there will continue to be just as many plugged in all the time, likely more over time. It does add up. Plugged in chargers are as much of a problem s dumping used ones are.

They could always have reclaiming boxes for old rechargers. The Japanese have battery dumping boxes on the street. For small devices such as cellphone batteries and other batteries this works well. I see no reason why it wouldn't work for chargers. That would solve the landfill dumping problem they're so worried about. Reclaiming electronics is getting better all the time.

It seems to me that designing chargers that drop their current draw to almost nothing until the device is plugged in would help a great deal. Right now, virtually no chargers do that, so they are powered all the time, though not delivering the amount of current the device needs. It's still considered to be too much. There are some spectacular numbers about how much current these things draw.

That's not true. Few chargers can power down when not being used. Current still flows through the charger. The only difference is that they aren't delivering the output to the device.

I have lots of wall huggers, and the most recent aren't drawing any less power than the older ones. That's assuming like for like.

The transformer based models consume more power when the device isn't plugged into them than do the electronic models. But all that I've tested do consume enough current so that when they're added together in the tens and hundreds of millions, there is significant power being wasted.