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Obama's Noble Lies

post #1 of 71
Thread Starter 
National Review

A fantastic and very thorough article...

Quote:
A second type of noble lie is more personal. Obama as a Platonic philosopher-king advocates all sorts of exalted aims that he himself will probably never fulfill. That he is hypocritical matters little, given the fact that his bromides are unquestionably for the public good. Obama apparently speaks no foreign language, yet he deplores the lack of foreign-language fluency on the part of less sophisticated Americans. He is unable to quit smoking entirely, but emphasizes the role of preventive medicine and healthy lifestyles in his radical health-care reform initiatives.

He wisely calls for racial transcendence and an end to racial identities even as he excuses Judge Sotomayors clearly racialist belief that race and gender inherently make one a better or worse judge. Obama, the healer, jumpstarted his own political career through religiously listening to and subsidizing the racist hate-speech offered by the charlatan Reverend Wright.

Obama deplores Wall Street greed and CEOs who take junkets to the Super Bowl and Las Vegas, even as he serves $100-a-pound beef, flies in his favorite pizza maker from St. Louis, and goes on a lavish date with Michelle to New York. Philosopher-kings accept certain protocols for themselves, others for the less sophisticated knowing that if most people tighten their belts in time of recession such parsimony is good for the country, but it is irrelevant to the occasional indulgences by an all-knowing elite.

We saw earlier examples of such elite personal exemptions with an array of Obamas appointees. The most brazen called for higher taxes while, as gifted technocrats, they obviously felt that such taxation did not, and should not, apply to their own exalted 1040s.

The third sort of noble lie is the deliberately incomplete truth.
Obama sincerely believes that stimuli and vast new budget-breaking programs are critical for the welfare of hoi polloi, but he also knows that the mob is suspicious of record-breaking deficits. So he signs the record-breaking deficits into law, while promising to be a deficit hawk by cutting one half of one percent of the federal budget. In his Platonic mind, the mindless public is both pacified and shepherded in the right direction.

Obama knows that our country needs to be protected from radical Islam by renditions, tribunals, wiretaps, intercepts, Predator assassinations, and persistence in Iraq and Afghanistan. But he also knows the public feels bad when some (like an earlier Obama himself) demagogue the issue, alleging a war against constitutional rights.

So he offers the noble lie of denouncing these Bush protocols that his antiwar base abhors even as he maintains or expands them. He is certain that the average Joe cannot quite figure out what is going on, and would never suspect that a charismatic, postracial Guardian would ever deceive the people.

Obama plants soft questions at news conferences, lies about earlier promises of posting pending legislation on government websites for public perusal, feigns populist unease with his radical government expansion, fires public auditors who uncover liberal transgressions, and in general adopts a hardball politics that the Left claimed was innate to George W. Bush. These again are lies that are noble, in that they facilitate progressive politics that help the people and they are presumably indiscernible by a fawning media and an unaware electorate.

So why does President Obama so often get history wrong, so often call for utopian schemes he would hardly adopt for himself, and so often distort by misinformation and incomplete disclosure?

Partly the culprit is administrative inexperience, partly historical ignorance. But mostly the disconnect comes because Barack Obama believes he is a philosopher-king, whose exalted ends more than justify his mendacious means.

In other words, Obama is our first truly postmodern president. And the Guardians who form his elite circle in the very manner that they once falsely accused neo-cons of doing deliberately, but nobly, distort the truth on behalf of us all.

Stimulus that doesn't stimulate. Exploding deficits as fiscal responsibility. A press corp that cares more about pomp than policies. Tax cheats as tax experts.

No matter the intention, the lies are lies.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #2 of 71
" Spam, spam, spam! Wonderful spam! "
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #3 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

National Review

A fantastic and very thorough article...



Stimulus that doesn't stimulate. Exploding deficits as fiscal responsibility. A press corp that cares more about pomp than policies. Tax cheats as tax experts.

No matter the intention, the lies are lies.

Works for me.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #4 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

National Review

A fantastic and very thorough article...

Stimulus that doesn't stimulate. Exploding deficits as fiscal responsibility. A press corp that cares more about pomp than policies. Tax cheats as tax experts.

No matter the intention, the lies are lies.

I just read this commentary from a leftwing historian, analyzing Obama (and comparing him to Bush):

Quote:
Before analyzing Obama in detail, we need to make two points concerning method. The first, is that Obama is genuinely different from Bush in one respect. Bush was an open, brutal reactionary who spoke with cynical bluntness about his own policies. "Bring it on", "dead or alive" and similar crude slogans remind us of Bush's tendencies to blurt out more or less what he was doing. The essence of Obama's approach is cynical hypocrisy - deception, dissembling, bait and switch, duping the public. Obama is slippery, slimy, shifty. He claims to be concerned about poverty and exclusion, but his policies are overwhelmingly designed to serve Wall Street. By using this method, Obama gains the precious advantage of left cover, which he hopes will let him operate more freely than Bush ever could.

Lies and lies indeed. Obama's just another slimy, lying toady politician who doesn't give a flying fvck about the millions of ordinary people who voted for him.. and those who didn't.

We was duped.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #5 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

A fantastic and very thorough article...

Do you really think of the president in the terms as expressed by the article?

Platonic philosopher-king?

The article is filled with partisan rhetoric to the point where it appears to be a parody. I would mourn for anyone who truly embraces it's intent.
Quote:
But mostly the disconnect comes because Barack Obama believes he is a philosopher-king, whose exalted ends more than justify his mendacious means.
post #6 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

I just read this commentary from a leftwing historian, analyzing Obama (and comparing him to Bush):



Lies and lies indeed. Obama's just another slimy, lying toady politician who doesn't give a flying fvck about the millions of ordinary people who voted for him.. and those who didn't.

We was duped.

Works for me.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #7 of 71
he also promised that legislation would be available for 5 days for us pee-ons to read, he supports having it available at 3am, and in a format you can't search
wow that promise didn't happen at all.

TYRANNY !!!!
I APPLE THEREFORE I AM
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I APPLE THEREFORE I AM
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post #8 of 71
Trumptman you've argued points much better than this article you've posted has, many times. It's lame, overly simplistic and over the top.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #9 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Trumptman you've argued points much better than this article you've posted has, many times. It's lame, overly simplistic and over the top.

It's the National Review - 'nuff said!
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post #10 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

National Review

A fantastic and very thorough article...

So thorough they can't fact check that Obama does speak Indonesian and some German? He downplays it. I guess modesty is a lie too.


Quote:
Stimulus that doesn't stimulate. Exploding deficits as fiscal responsibility. A press corp that cares more about pomp than policies. Tax cheats as tax experts.

No matter the intention, the lies are lies.

Well, some intentions do matter. And the intentions of the author of that piece is pretty clear.
post #11 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

I just read this commentary from a leftwing historian, analyzing Obama (and comparing him to Bush):


Lies and lies indeed. Obama's just another slimy, lying toady politician who doesn't give a flying fvck about the millions of ordinary people who voted for him.. and those who didn't.

We was duped.

Well if both the extreme left and right hate the guy, he must be doing something right.
post #12 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Well if both the extreme left and right hate the guy, he must be doing something right.

I agree.

I still wonder what magic wand people expect Obama to wave to make them richer, spend more money and improve the "economy". Leaving the job loss aside (which is a bad side-effect of global corporate greed), this is the first time Americans are actually saving whatever they earn. You are no longer getting fed and bled by China and the rest of the world exploiting your insane dependence on credit.
Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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post #13 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by talksense101 View Post

I still wonder what magic wand people expect Obama to wave to make them richer, spend more money and improve the "economy".

No magic wand. Just stop stealing money from people to pay off incompetent and corrupt bankers, unions that have ruined their industry but got you elected and other politically favored groups that you want to give money to as a thank you for making him king.


Quote:
Originally Posted by talksense101 View Post

Leaving the job loss aside (which is a bad side-effect of global corporate greed)

Or the result of a bust from a government created economic bubble.


Quote:
Originally Posted by talksense101 View Post

this is the first time Americans are actually saving whatever they earn.

Which they are about to get penalized for thanks to the inflationary monetary policies that have been in play for the past year.


Quote:
Originally Posted by talksense101 View Post

You are no longer getting fed and bled by China and the rest of the world exploiting your insane dependence on credit.

Uh huh. Of course the U.S. (government) is still frighteningly dependent on the Chinese (and others in the world) to finance its profligate ways. Which have gotten even more profligate under Obama.
post #14 of 71
The current situation is the net result of the policies of the past decade or more. Now if the government didn't take action and allowed these systems to fail, it will hurt everyone when the roof comes crashing down. The American society is regimented to depend on the system in place for leading a normal life; throwing in a monkey wrench into the whole thing might seem like the right thing to do, but it doesn't help. (it might work if you are a dictator and can handle the subsequent fall out when the common man starts hurting). Consider the banks for example, how many Americans actually deal with real cash? You put money in the banks, but the banks squandered it and if they shut down, your "virtual" money is gone. Your debit / credit cards don't work, your "virtual" salary cannot get credited, and one fine day the ATM stops dealing out cash. The banks in question are more or less the largest in the system.

Obama is taking a risk by letting the economy bleed more hoping it recovers, but sustaining these greedy corporates at the expense of the public and forcing them to change seems to be the only viable solution right now.

The positive side of the current situation is that people have started changing their habits, this definitely turns things for the better. The corporates and their cronies in the government (local and international) can do whatever they like, but the final authority is public opinion and behavior. What happens if the consumer decides to boycott the banks that failed and got bailed out? What if the consumer decides to stop wasting money on unnecessary goods manufactured in bulk by China? Without the volumes, cost of manufacture in China will move towards reality and that will help local economy in the long term. It is people that matter in the long run, but lack of unity in action is always exploited by those in power.
Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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post #15 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by talksense101 View Post

The current situation is the net result of the policies of the past decade or more.

I would argue much more. Many people seem to have a fairly short view of history (e.g., "the past decade", "the last administration", etc.) and fail to see the broader picture of what is and has been going on for decades.


Quote:
Originally Posted by talksense101 View Post

Now if the government didn't take action and allowed these systems to fail, it will hurt everyone when the roof comes crashing down.

This is an oft repeated and seldom questioned assertion. It is also not supported by much in the way of facts or evidence. In short it is conjecture.


Quote:
Originally Posted by talksense101 View Post

The American society is regimented to depend on the system in place for leading a normal life;

I think you give American society too little credit for its resiliency. There's no question that some break down will lead some into chaos and disunity. But I think society might be more resilient than you think.


Quote:
Originally Posted by talksense101 View Post

throwing in a monkey wrench into the whole thing might seem like the right thing to do, but it doesn't help.

The fact is that the monkey wrench has already been thrown in. This was done by the increasing levels of government intervention and distortions which have lead to these fiascos to begin with. Throwing more wrenches into the works (more continued government intervention) is not the way to fix it. As the old saying goes, when you find yourself in a hole the first thing to do is to stop digging!


Quote:
Originally Posted by talksense101 View Post

sustaining these greedy corporates at the expense of the public and forcing them to change seems to be the only viable solution right now.

I would say that "seems" is the operative word here. And not everything is always as it seems to be.
post #16 of 71
The elected CEOs (or presidents) sure as hell aren't going to bite the corporate hand that feeds them. It doesn't matter whether they are Democrats or Republicans. The sort of radical changes you suggest will need someone like Hugo Chávez running the USA. People always rise up to the occasion when they are forced to do so, but any political leader who allows that situation would be committing political suicide.
Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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post #17 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by talksense101 View Post

The elected CEOs (or presidents) sure as hell aren't going to bite the corporate hand that feeds them. It doesn't matter whether they are Democrats or Republicans.

I agree. So then it appears we have a deeper, more fundamental and deeply ingrained problem. What do you suggest we do about it? Just passively sit by and let them continue their slow (but getting faster) destruction of this once great nation? Let them continually plunder and kill and erode liberty here and abroad? At some point someone (hopefully enough people) needs to step up and say "Enough!" At the present time the complacence of many people and the outright cheerleading of the actions of the present (and previous) administrations (and congress) suggests things will have to get much worse before they get better.


Quote:
Originally Posted by talksense101 View Post

The sort of radical changes you suggest will need someone like Hugo Chávez running the USA.

Shit, we have someone like Hugo Chávez running the USA! But that fact aside, what it so radical about not spending money like a fucking drunk sailor? About cutting people's taxes? About get the government out of the way and letting people actually be free?

Ahh...nevermind. I realize now this (freedom) is a radical idea and most people don't really want it despite their verbal protestations and most politicians don't want to grant it despite their propaganda in favor of it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by talksense101 View Post

People always rise up to the occasion when they are forced to do so, but any political leader who allows that situation would be committing political suicide.

So then we agree that this is all just about politics and not necessarily what is best for the country.

But the real irony is that Obama might just have committed political suicide anyway. The actions he's taken have demostrated several things so far:

1. His promises are worth the tele-prompter their displayed on. I suspect some (maybe even many) of his supporters are looking on in dismay at this.

2. He ain't so different from Bush as all of his Hope and Change rhetoric suggested (surprise!) I suspect some (maybe even many) of his supporters are looking on in dismay at this.

3. Economically his policies are making (and will continue to make) things worse, probably much worse.

So from a political perspective he had the political capital to take some risks and make some bold moves in the right direction. Instead he's taken no risks and he's made bold moves in a bad direction, increasing, focusing and consolidating power not just in the federal government, but in the presidency. He's been masterful at giving the appearance of being new and different when in practical fact of action he's the same (or worse).

He just might end up being Jimmy Carter.
post #18 of 71
Thread Starter 
First and foremost, Involuntary Serf has done a great job in his replies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Do you really think of the president in the terms as expressed by the article?

Platonic philosopher-king?

The article is filled with partisan rhetoric to the point where it appears to be a parody. I would mourn for anyone who truly embraces it's intent.

I find it sad that no matter the source, people find a way to keep the blinders on. Why play the intent game? You are better than that! I'm more than happy to call mocking for what it is or deal with tone, but there are loads of very clear examples in that article that you make attempt to understand or address.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Trumptman you've argued points much better than this article you've posted has, many times. It's lame, overly simplistic and over the top.

Well as many a smart performer has said, know your audience. I'm sorry but too many on here read articles about Michelle Obama's dresses, who John Stewart blasted (not debated with facts but mocked and ridiculed), who David Letterman called "slutty" , or you should WATCH for ten seconds.

The article lays it out quick and easy. People on here have complained that I make them read too much so, they get the Fisher-Price version to dismiss rather than WATCH.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FormerLurker View Post

It's the National Review - 'nuff said!

Circumstancial ad-hom, nuff said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

So thorough they can't fact check that Obama does speak Indonesian and some German? He downplays it. I guess modesty is a lie too.

Well, some intentions do matter. And the intentions of the author of that piece is pretty clear.

Circumstancial ad-hom and my definition of bilingual apparently is a little higher than Obama's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by talksense101 View Post

I agree.

I still wonder what magic wand people expect Obama to wave to make them richer, spend more money and improve the "economy". Leaving the job loss aside (which is a bad side-effect of global corporate greed), this is the first time Americans are actually saving whatever they earn. You are no longer getting fed and bled by China and the rest of the world exploiting your insane dependence on credit.

IS did a great job with this. As he noted, Obama policies are creating inflation and so that savings will become diminished in terms of purchasing power. People should always know they cannot consume more than they earn. No one is being forced to live that way. This stuff was being made fun of well before the downturn.

How do you reconcile calling it "corporate greed" while noting that large segments of the population are living well beyond their means? What do you call that if not greed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by talksense101 View Post

The elected CEOs (or presidents) sure as hell aren't going to bite the corporate hand that feeds them. It doesn't matter whether they are Democrats or Republicans. The sort of radical changes you suggest will need someone like Hugo Chávez running the USA. People always rise up to the occasion when they are forced to do so, but any political leader who allows that situation would be committing political suicide.

Maybe they will rise up when Obama's policies have doubled unemployment while failing to deliver utopia.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #19 of 71
Thread Starter 
Commentary Magazine.com

Quote:
There are, I think, several things to say about all this. The first is that what is most tired, old, and worn out is Obama's lazy rhetorical ploy. He relies on a few stock, and by now hackneyed, phrases to substitute for a serious engagement with issues.

Rhetoric to avoid engagement with the issues? Why would someone as brilliant as Obama supposedly happens to be want to avoid the issues?

Quote:
Second, President Obama's words reinforce the impression some of us have that his most dangerous personal characteristic is his other-worldly self-regard. He seems to believe he is unlike, and better than, any others who have come before him. He sees himself as a man of awe-inspiring intellectual honesty, a mind rinsed off of prejudice and bias. While the rest of the country is engaged in petty and trivial fights in political sand-boxes, Obama is America's playground attendant, teaching the rest of us how to act right and think right. It is all rather too much.

Because much like the campaign... HE is the issue. Obama did not produce books about policies, he produced books about his personal journey. He is not going to fix our problems, because electing him was the solution.

Quote:
Third, Obama - despite his pretensions to the contrary - is a completely orthodox, doctrinaire liberal. His policies are strikingly uncreative and, if I might borrow from the Obama lexicon, tired, old, dogmatic, ideological, and discredited. Is a top-down, government-controlled, tax-and-spend approach to economics fresh, new, and interesting? As President, Obama has shown no intellectual boldness when it comes to his policies. Most of his reforms are hollow and non-existent. He has, in fact, acceded to the committee chairmen on Capitol Hill time and again. More than any president in modern times, he is deferring to barons on the Hill to steer the ship of state. Whatever that qualifies as, it is not a break with worn-out ideas and the politics of the past.

Exactly! People complain that we won't give Obama policies the time to succeed or fail realizing they have already failed in the past when tried by others. In addition, they are failing now. We don't need to wait until they fail utterly before being justified in questioning them.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #20 of 71
Thread Starter 
and the best part is... there is no answer for them.

A nice list of the most recent lies...


Here is a nice fun one. Since by the arm bending numbers that Obama tried to finess out for his stimulus, you know the one that hasn't improved anything, the one that "everyone didn't know it was this bad" even while declaring we had to do something immediately to prevent a depression, that we didn't know was this bad... etc..

Well remember the stimulus was basically stealing growth. There is no magical multiplier. The stimulus amounts to grabbing a bucket of water out of the stream and carrying it upstream for several steps, and dumping it back in declaring there is now more water.

Clearly there isn't more water and so stimulus today means stealing growth from the future. The CBO estimates show this as well and did at the time of the vote too.

Quote:
BO, the official scorekeepers for legislation, said the House and Senate bills will help in the short term but result in so much government debt that within a few years they would crowd out private investment, actually leading to a lower Gross Domestic Product over the next 10 years than if the government had done nothing.

CBO estimates that by 2019 the Senate legislation would reduce GDP by 0.1 percent to 0.3 percent on net. [The House bill] would have similar long-run effects, CBO said in a letter to Sen. Judd Gregg, New Hampshire Republican, who was tapped by Mr. Obama on Tuesday to be Commerce Secretary.

So remember not only will the stimulus not have stimulated, it has harmed the economy in the future as well.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #21 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

So remember not only will the stimulus not have stimulated, it has harmed the economy in the future as well.

But at least Obama's doing something!

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #22 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

and the best part is... there is no answer for them.

A nice list of the most recent lies...

The first sentence of that opinion piece calls Obama "absolutely pathological".

That right there makes it clear that the author is deranged. Reasonable people can disagree with Obama's policies. But this nutjob is well past disagreeing. He refuses to take anything at face value and isn't engaging in rational discussion. Instead he just assumes that everything is a lie.

Once someone starts to assume that everything is a lie and that doom is imminent, discussion is impossible. In fact, it normally suggests to me that the individual is suffering from a mental illness with symptoms of paranoia.

[edit]I actually have relatives and friends who suffer from such symptoms and am not making the comment in jest. The anonymous author's word choice suggests that this is the case, at least to some slight degree.
post #23 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

The first sentence of that opinion piece calls Obama "absolutely pathological".

That right there makes it clear that the author is deranged. Reasonable people can disagree with Obama's policies. But this nutjob is well past disagreeing. He refuses to take anything at face value and isn't engaging in rational discussion. Instead he just assumes that everything is a lie.

I think the term appropriate and here is why, it is one thing to lie or be political and quite another to continually deal with this level of propaganda and double-talk. Polls of Obama's own supporters show they don't withdraw support due to some of his actions and positions basically because they believe he is lying about them. The best example of this is gay marriage in my opinion. People don't think he is really opposed to gay marriage.

However Obama goes well beyond taking politically expedient positions, or flip-flopping. He attempts to tell people they are not perceiving reality properly. The example with his health care plan is that he will claim it will save money due to lack of profit motive in the government plan while providing the same level of coverage and then, within the same sentence claims it will not harm private insurance providers. (Who will now somehow apparently provide the same plans for more to make a profit but somehow still be everyone's choice.)

When you question this, you are told that Obama will bring about something new and different from the past due to him being....well Obama. In fact if you look through many Obama statements, he uses this old ways, him as defining line to break with the past motif. The most recent example was in getting ready to deal with Putin he declared Putin had,"one foot in the old ways of doing business." This old new break is as close to a verbal tick as Obama has as everything that he disagrees with is ....old.

But that isn't an old versus new thing or even a flip flop of position thing. It is being told that nothing will both change and not change, allow profit but be cheaper due to lack of profit, etc.

The article sums it up better...

But this is different and decidedly more dangerous: The president of the United States says one thing and does another and claims things that cannot possibly be.

Quote:
Once someone starts to assume that everything is a lie and that doom is imminent, discussion is impossible. In fact, it normally suggests to me that the individual is suffering from a mental illness with symptoms of paranoia.

This is quite different. When being called the party of "NO" it is important that to note that what you are saying no to is a delusion.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #24 of 71
The Truth of Obama's Trojan Horse

Obama's proposed "public option" is merely a way to get a foot in the door to a single-payer health care system.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #25 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

The Truth of Obama's Trojan Horse

Obama's proposed "public option" is merely a way to get a foot in the door to a single-payer health care system.

Love the unbiased reasoning on the website!

Available also :
Quote:
Green Hell: How Environmentalists Plan to Control Your Life and What You Can Do to Stop Them

http://www.heritage.org/Press/Events/ev041309a.cfm

Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #26 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Love the unbiased reasoning on the website!

Available also :

http://www.heritage.org/Press/Events/ev041309a.cfm


Let's see the moral code followed in response.

Where is the unbiased source to rebutt the claim?

Really, what is a claim of bias coming from a biased source?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #27 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Let's see the moral code followed in response.

Where is the unbiased source to rebutt the claim?

Really, what is a claim of bias coming from a biased source?

Quote:
Where is the unbiased source to rebutt the claim?

There are plenty out there that believe what enviromentalists are saying. Besides it's up to Jazzy to prove this is correct. He posted first.

A major news service is required that we all know about. Yes I know you don't believe in that ( doesn't really matter ) but I don't believe in specialty web sites that tell you what you want to hear.
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post #28 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

There are plenty out there that believe what enviromentalists are saying. Besides it's up to Jazzy to prove this is correct. He posted first.

A major news service is required that we all know about. Yes I know you don't believe in that ( doesn't really matter ) but I don't believe in specialty web sites that tell you what you want to hear.

He did post proof. The proof wasn't rebutted but dismissed with a claim of bias. Since the claim of bias came from a source of bias, it cannot deemed reliable.

Please address the proof or concede the point.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #29 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

He did post proof. The proof wasn't rebutted but dismissed with a claim of bias. Since the claim of bias came from a source of bias, it cannot deemed reliable.

Please address the proof or concede the point.

What he posted was an minority opinion piece from a heavily biased website.

Give me an extra big break. Please submit proof from a well known unbiased source.
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post #30 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

What he posted was an minority opinion piece from a heavily biased website.

Give me an extra big break. Please submit proof from a well known unbiased source.

Submit counter proof from a well-known and unbiased source. Do something besides dismiss.

He provided a source.

All that has been offered in return is an accusation and dismissal.

Live up to your credo.

Prove what you ask for or don't ask.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #31 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Submit counter proof from a well-known and unbiased source. Do something besides dismiss.

He provided a source.

All that has been offered in return is an accusation and dismissal.

Live up to your credo.

Prove what you ask for or don't ask.

trumptman the burden of proof is on the original poster. There's mountains of material to the contrary out there and you know it!

Quote:
He provided a source.

He provided what amounts to an opinion from a biased source. If I may quote a recent post by you from one of your multiple threads :
Quote:
Not to be rude but I don't care to do the work for someone who easily dismisses such work

.

If there were more credible publications or websites saying the same thing I'd give it more attention.

You live up to something.
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post #32 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

trumptman the burden of proof is on the original poster. There's mountains of material to the contrary out there and you know it!

He provided what amounts to an opinion from a biased source. If I may quote a recent post by you from one of your multiple threads : .

If there were more credible publications or websites saying the same thing I'd give it more attention.

You live up to something.

I understand. The rationalization is long-winded, but his point stands and the dismissal is conceded.

Jazzguru wins! He did the work!

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #33 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I understand. The rationalization is long-winded, but his point stands and the dismissal is conceded.

Jazzguru wins! He did the work!

He did nothing but quote a conservative rag.

Sorry but just like the republicans last November he wins nothing.

And it isn't a rationalization as you pointed out yourself remember?
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post #34 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

He did nothing but quote a conservative rag.

Sorry but just like the republicans last November he wins nothing.

And it isn't a rationalization as you pointed out yourself remember?

Conservative rag = Opinion and thus rationale to avoid engaging material

Sorry = off-topic and not even related.

Me quoted in a manner you don't understand = irony as I am quoted in support of a position when the quote clearly means the opposite of the claim.

Thus in the future, Jazzguru should not have to provide links because they will be dismissed instead of addressed.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #35 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Conservative rag = Opinion and thus rationale to avoid engaging material


Me quoted in a manner you don't understand = irony as I am quoted in support of a position when the quote clearly means the opposite of the claim.

Thus in the future, Jazzguru should not have to provide links because they will be dismissed instead of addressed.

What material? He can provide links or not but they have to be of a greater caliber than this.

This :

Quote:
Me quoted in a manner you don't understand = irony as I am quoted in support of a position when the quote clearly means the opposite of the claim.

is what is known as " Goobledegook ". I'm not going to get into a sideways discussion about what you and groverat were discussing. You didn't want to submit proof to the conversation because it would be so " easily dismissed ". That's all I need to know. I understood your position clearly.
And yes :
Quote:
Sorry = off-topic and not even related.

it is related. One of the reasons the republicans lost is because people are tired of this same old attitude. Specialized scientists that give lectures on the party's position on the enviroment when clearly the bulk of the world's scientists are saying the opposite. In this case trumptman it's kind of like the mad scientist that says " I'm right and you're all wrong! I'll show you all ha , ha! ".

The voters want someone more in touch with reality. They don't want some to make it up for them.
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post #36 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

What material? He can provide links or not but they have to be of a greater caliber than this.

Meanwhile you can dismiss and state with no links of any quality.

No double standard there.

Quote:
This :is what is known as " Goobledegook ". I'm not going to get into a sideways discussion about what you and groverat were discussing. You didn't want to submit proof to the conversation because it would be so " easily dismissed ". That's all I need to know. I understood your position clearly.

You just watched him do it in a thread where three different people are providing information for him. Go into that thread, count up the number of links and quotes posted and see what has been given in return besides insults.

Quote:
One of the reasons the republicans lost is because people are tired of this same old attitude. Specialized scientists that give lectures on the party's position on the enviroment when clearly the bulk of the world's scientists are saying the opposite. In this case trumptman it's kind of like the mad scientist that says " I'm right and you're all wrong! I'll show you all ha , ha! ".

No it is more like saying Al Gore and others like him aren't scientists but a men of good intention and thus we will listen to him and we will keep all the scientists that would rebut him out of the committee hearing and then pass the legislation without reading it.

All the links that have been posted on here to deal with arguments are just circumstantially ad-homed by you and then ignored. You then go on to the same blinder-edifying phrase over and over again. Republicans lost, Democrats won, get over it. A half dozen people have noted this.

Quote:
The voters want someone more in touch with reality. They don't want some to make it up for them.

The voters wanted someone who promised to write the checks while chanting hope and change. The checks haven't arrived, the jobs have fled and the masses are waking up quickly.

I'm done with this for now. Frank is banned but you can just be ignored in the meantime.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #37 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Meanwhile you can dismiss and state with no links of any quality.

No double standard there.



You just watched him do it in a thread where three different people are providing information for him. Go into that thread, count up the number of links and quotes posted and see what has been given in return besides insults.



No it is more like saying Al Gore and others like him aren't scientists but a men of good intention and thus we will listen to him and we will keep all the scientists that would rebut him out of the committee hearing and then pass the legislation without reading it.

All the links that have been posted on here to deal with arguments are just circumstantially ad-homed by you and then ignored. You then go on to the same blinder-edifying phrase over and over again. Republicans lost, Democrats won, get over it. A half dozen people have noted this.



The voters wanted someone who promised to write the checks while chanting hope and change. The checks haven't arrived, the jobs have fled and the masses are waking up quickly.

I'm done with this for now. Frank is banned but you can just be ignored in the meantime.

Quote:
Meanwhile you can dismiss and state with no links of any quality.

The original assertion was his! It was kind of a wild assertion at that. I didn't see him provide a few others to cooberate with. I still don't many others saying the same thing.

Quote:
circumstantially ad-homed by you



Quote:
Frank is banned but you can just be ignored in the meantime.

Relevance?
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post #38 of 71
I take it that "circumstantially ad-homed by you" means "I want you to have done something you would get banned for".
post #39 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

I take it that "circumstantially ad-homed by you" means "I want you to have done something you would get banned for".


That's the way I'd read it.
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post #40 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

I take it that "circumstantially ad-homed by you" means "I want you to have done something you would get banned for".

Nope, you can ad-hom a source all you want. You can declare that the NY Times is a vile piece of crap. However it still is an ad-hom and logical fallacy. It doesn't refute or disprove anything.

Thus if someone provided proof and the refutation of that were name calling, that proof hasn't been refuted. Additional demands for proof can be ignored because they first proof hasn't been refuted and in fact was dismissed with nothing more than name calling aka "conservative rag."

Now on to the thread topic, more Obama bad news.

Quote:
Apparently we were going to experience a once-in-a-lifetime economic crisis comparable to the Great Depression without a particularly high unemployment rate. This was the promise of the Obama administration, which indulged in hair-raisingly alarmist economic rhetoric while pumping out unduly hopeful economic projections. If the Reagan administration gave us the rosy scenario, the Obama administration has given us the rosy apocalypse.

The rosy apocalypse is an artifact of both ideological naïveté and knowing cynicism. The administration genuinely believed, against all historical experience, that government spending would boost us out of the recession. And it knew it had to assume an unrealistically rapid, robust economic recovery, because otherwise the already-horrid deficit projections would look worse. So Obama talked up the crisis to get the stimulus passed, and after that . . . happy days again!

Oh no... someone doesn't buy the doublespeak.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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