Jobs calls Bloomberg story 'total bull,' says NYT 'making things up'

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  • Reply 81 of 201
    groovetubegroovetube Posts: 557member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by macnyc View Post


    If you're going to bother to reply at least don't put words in my mouth. I never said the iPhone was completely flawless. You obviously don't have a valid argument when you have to resort to completely making things up.



    I was being sarcastic. But since so many seem incredibly and desperately offended by anything remotely I guess you gotta be careful what you say around here or the apple defence league's thunderin hooves will pummel me to submission in no time flat.

  • Reply 82 of 201
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ZeekDuff View Post


    If Apple has sold about 4 million+ units as [they] stated, the above [stated] percentage of all units now in service yields roughly 22,000 reported complaints, or just about one in every 182+- sold. That's a significantly real problem, IMHO.



    Or three million...



    What's the fail rate xbox 360s? 52.4 %. And that's an outright bridling of the device. This is the possible temporary degradation of signal



    Find any product with less than a 1% fail rate and you've found yourself a great product.
  • Reply 83 of 201
    So, with three million customers that is 16,500 calls logged which is a significant number IMHO. Complaints lag sales so that is actually a rate of about 5000 calls per week. It would be interesting to know if the complaints are increasing or decreasing.



    What follows is purely speculative, full of assumptions and should be taken with large sodium chloride doses:



    Say the complaint rate is steady (doubtful, probably increasing) and complaints lag sales by three weeks, so another three weeks of complaints would double the total and raise the complaint percentage to 1.1%



    Complaints are generally less than actual affected users. The ratio is hard to say and depends on many factors. Given my personal experience with non-techie users of technology who experience flakey problems with their devices, I would say this ratio is at least 5:1. Again, MHO only, but based on personal experience. Many people in fringe locations are already used to dropped calls. Many of them will blame themselves. Many will not even think to complain if the issue is similar to what they have experienced with their previous phone. Lots do not realize they can call and complain.



    So, say a .55% call rate indicates that 5.5% of users are adversely affected in a noticeable way. That's a LOT of people and phones.



    As well, understand that this is a very repeatable problem and a signal loss of greater than 20 db is huge... far outside the norm for cell phone handling. Worst I could get on my Motorola W385 is 2 db. Worst on my BB Curve is 4 db. Worst on my 3GS is 5 db (er.. turn it upside down and gain 3 to 5 db).



    Now understand: even if the circumstances of 95% of iPhone 4 owners are such that the antenna problem does not affect them noticably, their phones still have a latent problem that has the potential to affect them adversely in the worst possible way at the worst possible moment.



    That is: 100% of the iPhone 4 owners have a latent, critical problem with their phones.



    The above paper-napkin analysis is not rigorous but it is the type of calculation and resultant conclusion that all design/engineering/marketing/support teams should be able to do. Again, IMHO, I think that the above estimates are conservative.



    Apple's moves today are wise and prudent but I still find Jobs to be irritating and condescending. I don't believe for a second that some engineer on the Apple teams did not raise an alarm. The issue was likely raised and pushed aside a la the shuttle booster O-rings cold weather limitations.



    Good on Apple for providing free bumpers and for re-calibrating the signal meter. Boo for not completely fessing up, but that's minor. Most companies have trouble coming clean.
  • Reply 84 of 201
    dr millmossdr millmoss Posts: 5,403member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DESuserIGN View Post


    The pollsters didn't get it wrong, their methodology and projection did not work.

    The tribune did get it wrong in that they reported a prediction as fact on the same night of the election (they were a pro-Republican newspaper and they jumped the gun to "report" the election in the early morning edition.)

    We all realize polls have flaws and expect them to fail. But we do expect reporters to report facts, not predictions.



    I'm trying to understand the difference in your distinction. We only ever see the famous headline of the Tribune, not what was written in the article. Further, I think we can assume that many other newspapers ran a similar headline in the morning papers based on what the pollsters were saying the evening before. I also believe some of us can well recall the 2000 election, when the networks were alternately calling the race for Bush and Gore, based on what they were seeing in the exit polls at any given moment.



    It's funny, but since the 1948 election one thing has changed more than any other in our expectations of the media, and that is that we demand the news fast, faster, fastest. Then we reserve the right to call the media outlets sloppy or dishonest for not getting it right every time.
  • Reply 85 of 201
    hill60hill60 Posts: 6,992member
    Apparently 99.45% flawless regarding this issue, in spite of the frenzied whining from people who don't own an iPhone 4 in a display of mass hysteria which has dominated segments of the Internet over the last couple of weeks.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post


    wtf is with the apple defence league here?



    Ok! The iphone is completely flawless never a flaw anywhere so help ME GAWD!



    jesus H christ on a cracker.



  • Reply 86 of 201
    mdriftmeyermdriftmeyer Posts: 7,503member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post


    I was kind of shocked to hear Steve use that sort of language in a press conference. It suggests to me that he's really annoyed.



    Shocked? Oh this nation needs a verbal enema.



    If that bit of honesty is shocking no wonder this country is so screwed up.
  • Reply 87 of 201
    mdriftmeyermdriftmeyer Posts: 7,503member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ZeekDuff View Post


    If Apple has sold about 4 million+ units as [they] stated, the above [stated] percentage of all units now in service yields roughly 22,000 reported complaints, or just about one in every 182+- sold. That's a significantly real problem, IMHO.



    Hate to break it to you champ but a 99.45% satisfaction rating in a universe of approximations is stunningly rare.



    Don't hurt your brain thinking on it.



    Run along and find out how many defects have been happening in the Android world.
  • Reply 88 of 201
    hill60hill60 Posts: 6,992member
    So based on the X-box 360 figures of 52% return rate and applying your purely speculative interpretation of statistics, 520% of x-box 360 owners experienced the RROD issue?



    flawed



    flawed



    flawed



    Bulls**t to quote Steve Jobs.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pinkybrain View Post


    So, with three million customers that is 16,500 calls logged which is a significant number IMHO. Complaints lag sales so that is actually a rate of about 5000 calls per week. It would be interesting to know if the complaints are increasing or decreasing.



    What follows is purely speculative, full of assumptions and should be taken with large sodium chloride doses:



    Say the complaint rate is steady (doubtful, probably increasing) and complaints lag sales by three weeks, so another three weeks of complaints would double the total and raise the complaint percentage to 1.1%



    Complaints are generally less than actual affected users. The ratio is hard to say and depends on many factors. Given my personal experience with non-techie users of technology who experience flakey problems with their devices, I would say this ratio is at least 5:1. Again, MHO only, but based on personal experience. Many people in fringe locations are already used to dropped calls. Many of them will blame themselves. Many will not even think to complain if the issue is similar to what they have experienced with their previous phone. Lots do not realize they can call and complain.



    So, say a .55% call rate indicates that 5.5% of users are adversely affected in a noticeable way. That's a LOT of people and phones.



    As well, understand that this is a very repeatable problem and a signal loss of greater than 20 db is huge... far outside the norm for cell phone handling. Worst I could get on my Motorola W385 is 2 db. Worst on my BB Curve is 4 db. Worst on my 3GS is 5 db (er.. turn it upside down and gain 3 to 5 db).



    Now understand: even if the circumstances of 95% of iPhone 4 owners are such that the antenna problem does not affect them noticably, their phones still have a latent problem that has the potential to affect them adversely in the worst possible way at the worst possible moment.



    That is: 100% of the iPhone 4 owners have a latent, critical problem with their phones.



    The above paper-napkin analysis is not rigorous but it is the type of calculation and resultant conclusion that all design/engineering/marketing/support teams should be able to do. Again, IMHO, I think that the above estimates are conservative.



    Apple's moves today are wise and prudent but I still find Jobs to be irritating and condescending. I don't believe for a second that some engineer on the Apple teams did not raise an alarm. The issue was likely raised and pushed aside a la the shuttle booster O-rings cold weather limitations.



    Good on Apple for providing free bumpers and for re-calibrating the signal meter. Boo for not completely fessing up, but that's minor. Most companies have trouble coming clean.



  • Reply 89 of 201
    dr millmossdr millmoss Posts: 5,403member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post


    Shocked? Oh this nation needs a verbal enema.



    If that bit of honesty is shocking no wonder this country is so screwed up.



    Haha. You really put your finger on the true cause of our problems. I think it's because Wednesday starts with a W, but does anyone listen to me?
  • Reply 90 of 201
    doroteadorotea Posts: 323member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by VulpesRex View Post


    Yeah, the only way we're gonna find out whether this story was true is if the lawsuit filed a few weeks ago gains class action status, and then subsequently goes to trial. You can bet that Ruben Caballero and Steve Jobs will be deposed multiple times, and will probably be subpoenaed to testify at trial. Discovery requests will also demand all internal correspondence dealing with the i4 antenna design.



    Of course, the likeliness of that suit going to trial is very small. If it gains class action status, AAPL will settle out of court, every iPhone 4 owner will get a $30 check in the mail, and the attorneys for the plaintiffs will walk away with new Ferraris and huge bonuses from their law firms.



    I cannot figure out why the lawsuit would be allowed to continue. Apple is giving full refunds, so no one has the basis for a lawsuit. I think I hate lawyers.
  • Reply 91 of 201
    ALL of the iPhone 4s have this problem even if not everyone notices it. That is a 100% failure rate, although failure really is not the correct category.



    The call rate of 0.55% for a single issue is high for a new product and I don't know of any support centre that would be happy with this rate. As an engineering team leader I know that I would be called on the carpet for this single-issue rate on a mass produced consumer product. At 5000 calls per week (3 weeks, 0.55% of customers) and $50 per call to handle (conservative figure for a personal call back type support process), that is $250,000 per week of support expense for a single problem. This is ugly. Cuts deeply into the support profits.



    The X-Box 360 failure rate is a joke. It is an utter disaster. This is a comparison that does not lead to any insight. One is a production issue and the other is a built in design issue approved by an executive that should know better. The iPhone 4 is a great device and, mostly, an excellent phone. The design issue is obvious; any RF engineer would call attention to a bare metal antenna array that is bridgable by the user's hand.



    This is why Apple should be red-faced and contrite over the antenna problem.



    Good thing is that the issue is well defined and very fixable. Good on Apple to stop denying and to provide a free work-around.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bigdaddyguido View Post


    Or three million...



    What's the fail rate xbox 360s? 52.4 %. And that's an outright bridling of the device. This is the possible temporary degradation of signal



    Find any product with less than a 1% fail rate and you've found yourself a great product.



  • Reply 92 of 201
    myapplelovemyapplelove Posts: 1,515member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Foo2 View Post


    As quoted by Jason Snell, the 0.55% figure of AppleCare calls with an "antenna issue" applies to "all iPhone customers", not just iPhone 4 customers. The figure also omits AppleCare calls about reception or anything near.



    Who the fuck is Jason snell, what's with the web these days that every bozzo demands to be known by misconstruing reality that badly?



    More than anything this issue with the iPhone has showcased not apple's shortcomings but the lamentable condition of Internet reporting and the mass hysteria it brings about.
  • Reply 93 of 201
    doroteadorotea Posts: 323member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post


    how many didn't bother to call? It's well known the numbers of people who actually call to complain about issue such as this is much lower than those who actually have it.



    A whole bunch of pomp and ceremony, our phone is as bad as their phone's reception, blah blah blah.



    The reason Apple was crucified in the media is because look at it, the we're the king of the castle and yer the dirty rascal kind of thing you get from the apple crowd (frig I'm in it I can see it) makes it even more a target.



    The more smug the grins, the more people want to wipe them. Issue or no issue, that all it really is.



    If indeed the return rate is low and the call volume is low then there really isn't a huge problem. If people don't ask for problem remediation, there is no documented problem.
  • Reply 94 of 201
    groovetubegroovetube Posts: 557member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


    Apparently 99.45% flawless regarding this issue, in spite of the frenzied whining from people who don't own an iPhone 4 in a display of mass hysteria which has dominated segments of the Internet over the last couple of weeks.



    arguing about what and how many and the severity is pretty much useless. I don't own one, though I know a number of people in the US. But that doesn't count as any sort of reflection either, because most of them say they have more dropped calls. Only one sees it as a real problem, the others are kinda meh.



    But it's apple. The smug turtle neck thing is a total target. Mel Gibson is just racked over the coals right now, do you think anyone would give a rats ass if it was a nobody?



    Why are we surprised?
  • Reply 95 of 201
    myapplelovemyapplelove Posts: 1,515member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post


    arguing about what and how many and the severity is pretty much useless. I don't own one, though I know a number of people in the US. But that doesn't count as any sort of reflection either, because most of them say they have more dropped calls. Only one sees it as a real problem, the others are kinda meh.



    But it's apple. The smug turtle neck thing is a total target. Mel Gibson is just racked over the coals right now, do you think anyone would give a rats ass if it was a nobody?



    Why are we surprised?



    Mel Gibson's targeted because he dared to talk about the jewery, and lo and behold some of the biggest sufferers of of human crimes against them are now some of the worst perpetrators and persecutors. Lifes really funny. But I do agree with the spirit of what you are saying.
  • Reply 96 of 201
    hill60hill60 Posts: 6,992member
    We have a term for this:-



    Tall poppy syndrome

    Tall poppy syndrome (TPS) is a pejorative term used in the UK, Ireland, Australia, and New Zealand to describe a social phenomenon in which people of genuine merit are resented, attacked, cut down, or criticised because their talents or achievements elevate them above or distinguish them from their peers.




    Source



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post


    arguing about what and how many and the severity is pretty much useless. I don't own one, though I know a number of people in the US. But that doesn't count as any sort of reflection either, because most of them say they have more dropped calls. Only one sees it as a real problem, the others are kinda meh.



    But it's apple. The smug turtle neck thing is a total target. Mel Gibson is just racked over the coals right now, do you think anyone would give a rats ass if it was a nobody?



    Why are we surprised?



  • Reply 97 of 201
    The X-Box comparison is nonsense. It is indicative of a total failure of the production QA process so your extrapolation is non-valid as well. That was my point: the X-Box issue is a red-herring and has no place in the evaluation of the iPhone antenna issue. BTW given the 52.4% failure return rate of the X-Box, it is likely that 100% of the devices have a hardware production defect... after 100% you can't go any more.



    Let's put it another way: don't use the disastrous failure of another device (a totally incomparable device and situation as well) as justification for a serious design flaw in the iPhone. Is that clear enough?





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


    So based on the X-box 360 figures of 52% return rate and applying your purely speculative interpretation of statistics, 520% of x-box 360 owners experienced the RROD issue?



    flawed



    flawed



    flawed



    Bulls**t to quote Steve Jobs.



  • Reply 98 of 201
    myapplelovemyapplelove Posts: 1,515member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


    We have a term for this:-



    [B]Tall poppy syndrome[/B]

    Tall poppy syndrome (TPS) is a pejorative term used in the UK, Ireland, Australia, and New Zealand to describe a social phenomenon in which people of genuine merit are resented, attacked, cut down, or criticised because their talents or achievements elevate them above or distinguish them from their peers.




    Source



    There are also older archetypes for this, scapegoats and sacrificial victims come to mind - what the Greeks called eksilastirio thima, literally one who is victimised to atone for others' sins. As much as people like to profess that they like merit in other people, they like despising it much more.
  • Reply 98 of 201
    realisticrealistic Posts: 1,154member
    After today's Apple press conference I am sure that there a bunch of PO'd lawyers. The Apple gravy train left the station without them.
  • Reply 100 of 201
    ccmooccmoo Posts: 1member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SendMe View Post


    I hope that this puts to rest any ideas of the New York Times having any journalistic integrity whatsoever. Anybody who believes the New York Times believes fiction that is just made up.



    After saying the NYT story was wrong, Forstall then confirmed that they are doing some software fine tuning, thereby CONFIRMING what the Times story said. Jobs was just playing semantics. Sorry, Times haters. Keep drinking the Tea.
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