HTC, Samsung also take issue with Apple's antenna claims

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  • Reply 121 of 240
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by oxygenhose View Post


    No it's a price point issue, Apple's overall computer market share is relatively modest.



    Before you had to pay a minimum of a grand for an Apple device, kept a lot of the jokers at bay. Now that $80 and up gets you into an Apple, every greasy freak without a summer job fancies himself not just a Mac expert, but master of all technologies. I think you'd find an abnormally high number of Batman branded items around these people. No specific offense intended towards Batman or other imaginary characters that dorks lust over.



    Personally I would have preferred that the iPhone was actually list price of $700 +/-. But the general population is bad with math. They would rather have subsidized plan where the entry price is low and you pay a premium for the service. Although the difference is minimal, many people would keep their phone longer than the contract since there would be no penalty to do so. Only the super-geeks need to upgrade every year. So the subsidy works out well for Apple too I guess, with the possible exception of a lot of whining.
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  • Reply 122 of 240
    The fallout from the iPhone 4 antenna issue (or non issue) will actually be good for Apple in the long run. There are several people who want Apple products just for a social status which I believe is wrong and misses the point entirely in owning their products. These people will see that their products are being laughed at and then will immediately dump them and go for whatever the consensus sees as the next cool product. There is talk of them migrating to Android and I hope they go. I've setup many different Android devices and they pale by comparison to the iOS. The main difference with the call reliability is that now when the phone drops calls they can't be sure whether it's the phone or the network.



    BTW one of the recent Android phones I had to setup was for a client on Verizon. He bought a Droid Incredible, and it is incredible how fast it eats up battery life. He was leaving AZ to go to the Seattle area for vacation. He called me last week and I couldn't understand a word he said on his phone, so he had to call me back using a land line. So much for the best network.



    Oh and by the way, be careful when you root your phones, cause like Apple if you brick em, you have no more warranty.
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  • Reply 123 of 240
    anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 7,124member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by geekdad View Post


    You are missing the whole point and context. I tested 3 phones iPhone 3G and iPhone 4G (the new one!) and the EVO. Only the new iPhone 4G would drop calls. It did not matter how many bars were displayed. It did not matter if it was in an weak signal area or not. The iPhone 3G could make calls using the same network and same location while the iPhone 4G would drop calls when HELD the way I normally hold all my phones. I could hold all 3 phones the same way and ONLY the new iPhone 4G would lose signal and then drop calls. It did this with a full signal and of course when it had a weak signal. BUT is was the ONLY phone to do this. I hope that clarifies it for you......



    As I indicated, because of your terminology, it was difficult to determine what you were even trying to say. Let's review:
    • iPhone 3G (3G) - released by Apple in 2008, works on AT&T in US.

    • iPhone 3GS (3GS) - released by Apple in 2009, works on AT&T in US.

    • EVO 4G (EVO) - released by HTC in 2010, works on Sprint in US.

    • iPhone 4 (iP4) - released by Apple in 2010, works on AT&T in US.

    Since the EVO doesn't work on AT&T's network, it's irrelevant. So, you tested 2 phones, although, it's still not clear which 2.



    If it was a low signal area, an iP4 may possibly lose enough signal if you bridge the seam to drop a call that a 3G or 3GS might not. In a strong signal area, this would not be the cause of the dropped call.



    However, more rigorous tests have shown that an iP4 generally gets better reception than a 3GS, and more rigorous tests have determined exactly how much signal it will drop when the seam is bridged. No one, including Apple, is saying there is no signal loss. What they are saying is that signal loss is not unique to the iP4, and they have demonstrated that this is the case. They have also released data indicating that there is not a big jump in dropped calls using the iP4.



    So, that you have some anecdotal evidence that you were able to drop a call with an iP4 is not a significant data point, and doesn't point to some huge issue. The data describe the issue, and the data say that it's not significantly affecting iP4 owners.
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  • Reply 124 of 240
    anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 7,124member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mstone View Post


    Personally I would have preferred that the iPhone was actually list price of $700 +/-. But the general population is bad with math. They would rather have subsidized plan where the entry price is low and you pay a premium for the service. Although the difference is minimal, many people would keep their phone longer than the contract since there would be no penalty to do so. Only the super-geeks need to upgrade every year. So the subsidy works out well for Apple too I guess, with the possible exception of a lot of whining.



    Do you really think carriers would be charging any less for their plans if they weren't subsidizing phones? The phone subsidies and models of phones they offer are the sole area where they actually compete. They're still going to get as much on the plans as they think the market will bear.
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  • Reply 125 of 240
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Boogerman2000 View Post


    And how many users of other devices do you know who complained en masse about signal loss/attenuation issue before the Iphone 4?



    Were Blackberry users complaining? No Are they now? No



    Were Palm(HP) users complaining? No Are they now? No



    Were Android* -- Motorola--Samsung-- LG-- users complaining? No Are they now? No



    Were Iphone users complaining? no* Are they now? Yes You see the difference, right?





    *I am beginning to believe that the number of dropped calls on att are mostly experienced by Iphone users with the exception of the Nexus one. I never seem to have a problem, nor do I personally hear anyone complain about ATT other than those that use an iphone.



    *With the exception of the Nexus One, which I owned/tested and did have poor reception dropped call issues.



    When call-dropping and attenuation are part of the experience - why would you call it out? It is a fact of life for cellphone users, both before and after the introduction of the iPhone, all the carriers report it as a part of their performance stats - some like Verizon, for example, seem better than others, depending on coverage and technology. The problem here is now that the press has gone after Apple on this, it is out in the open - which is exactly where both the carriers and all the other cell makers DIDN'T want it to be. For them it's a catch-22: they tried very hard to let consumers ignore this little issue, and frankly let the carriers bear the brunt of the criticism for call integrity. It was another race to the bottom - build smaller, lighter, "smarter" phone with more features enclosed in a space that did not allow for enough effective antenna to ensure consist call signal capture and holding. Set aside also the fact that there is no universal standard for how bars show signal strength, nor how phones respond to loss of signal.



    No complaints, but every one of the phones you cited above in our corporate environment has a constant litany of "sorry my phone dropped the call". Every single one, and many other as well. But now - well the cat is out of the bag. Now consumers are focussed on the issue, and now the cell makers have to figure out better technology to address the issue.
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  • Reply 126 of 240
    sendmesendme Posts: 567member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by HammerofTruth View Post


    The fallout from the iPhone 4 antenna issue (or non issue) will actually be good for Apple in the long run. There are several people who want Apple products just for a social status which I believe is wrong and misses the point entirely in owning their products. These people will see that their products are being laughed at and then will immediately dump them and go for whatever the consensus sees as the next cool product.







    Apple is MUCH better off if those kind of people buy Android phones. Same with those people who buy MBPs so they look cool while sitting in StarBucks. Let them buy a Dell if they want to look cool!



    They are missing the point entirely in owning Apple products. Apple is better off in the long run if they just buy something else.
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  • Reply 127 of 240
    rkrickrkrick Posts: 66member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chronster View Post


    you're right, it's not a difficult one to figure out, that's why he's staying with his Evo



    Great... now he needs to figure out how to find the correct forum to post on.
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  • Reply 128 of 240
    anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 7,124member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chronster View Post


    you're right, it's not a difficult one to figure out, that's why he's staying with his Evo



    You see, this is why I label you a troll. You aren't here for honest discussion, you're just here to take potshots and misrepresent facts. Just because you aren't a ranting lunatic, like many of the trolls, doesn't make you any less of a troll.
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  • Reply 129 of 240
    myapplelovemyapplelove Posts: 1,515member
    Can we not have any more antenna "news" ie, it's beyond boring, it's insufferable.
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  • Reply 130 of 240
    irnchrizirnchriz Posts: 1,618member
    I have used mobile phones for years and every single handset has issues depending on where you hold them. As soon as you hold them you attenuate the signal. They still work, no big deal, right?



    Wrong, these mobile companies are shitting themselves. They have to release statements like this to cover their asses. If they don't? Lawsuits. Guaranteed some little prick who thinks the world owes him a living will launch a lawsuit agains these companies for shitty antennas etc.
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  • Reply 131 of 240
    myapplelovemyapplelove Posts: 1,515member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by HammerofTruth View Post


    The fallout from the iPhone 4 antenna issue (or non issue) will actually be good for Apple in the long run. There are several people who want Apple products just for a social status which I believe is wrong and misses the point entirely in owning their products. These people will see that their products are being laughed at and then will immediately dump them and go for whatever the consensus sees as the next cool product. There is talk of them migrating to Android and I hope they go. I've setup many different Android devices and they pale by comparison to the iOS. The main difference with the call reliability is that now when the phone drops calls they can't be sure whether it's the phone or the network.



    BTW one of the recent Android phones I had to setup was for a client on Verizon. He bought a Droid Incredible, and it is incredible how fast it eats up battery life. He was leaving AZ to go to the Seattle area for vacation. He called me last week and I couldn't understand a word he said on his phone, so he had to call me back using a land line. So much for the best network.



    Oh and by the way, be careful when you root your phones, cause like Apple if you brick em, you have no more warranty.



    Excellent post.
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  • Reply 132 of 240
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    Do you really think carriers would be charging any less for their plans if they weren't subsidizing phones? The phone subsidies and models of phones they offer are the sole area where they actually compete. They're still going to get as much on the plans as they think the market will bear.



    If the phone was unlocked, maybe. There should be a difference, but since it isn't going to happen, one will never know. I simply dislike non-transparent contracts, especially when there is no alternative. I am not implying that I want to save any money personally, as my phone is entirely provided by my company. It would just be more flexible and honest, for those who did want to save. Some people expressed interest in a no data plan - just txt and voice, restricting their data usage to wifi. Others need fewer minutes and more data. I just don't like being taken advantage of regardless of whether or not I can afford it.
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  • Reply 133 of 240
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SendMe View Post


    Consumer Reports has no credibility whatsoever. Never did.



    That's not true. CR used to be a decent magazine which did some good work and published some good results. The started to go downhill about the time they falsified the Suzuki Samurai tests.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by geekdad View Post


    You are missing the whole point and context. I tested 3 phones iPhone 3G and iPhone 4G (the new one!) and the EVO. Only the new iPhone 4G would drop calls. It did not matter how many bars were displayed. It did not matter if it was in an weak signal area or not. The iPhone 3G could make calls using the same network and same location while the iPhone 4G would drop calls when HELD the way I normally hold all my phones. I could hold all 3 phones the same way and ONLY the new iPhone 4G would lose signal and then drop calls. It did this with a full signal and of course when it had a weak signal. BUT is was the ONLY phone to do this. I hope that clarifies it for you......



    You got your hands on an EVO, iPhone 3G, and iPhone 4G and took them all to various locations to test them to see which one worked better? Somehow, that's not very credible.



    Besides, it's meaningless. When comparing the EVO and the iPhone, you're comparing both the phone and the network - how do you know how much of the difference is the network?



    In addition, there's a major logical fallacy in your argument. Your position is akin to saying that your Yugo is better than a Lexus because 1% (use whatever figure you like) of Lexus cars crash every year (and you actually saw it happen once) while YOUR Yugo hasn't crashed.
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  • Reply 134 of 240
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    If it was a low signal area, an iP4 may possibly lose enough signal if you bridge the seam to drop a call that a 3G or 3GS might not. In a strong signal area, this would not be the cause of the dropped call.



    However, more rigorous tests have shown that an iP4 generally gets better reception than a 3GS, and more rigorous tests have determined exactly how much signal it will drop when the seam is bridged. No one, including Apple, is saying there is no signal loss. What they are saying is that signal loss is not unique to the iP4, and they have demonstrated that this is the case. They have also released data indicating that there is not a big jump in dropped calls using the iP4.



    So, that you have some anecdotal evidence that you were able to drop a call with an iP4 is not a significant data point, and doesn't point to some huge issue. The data describe the issue, and the data say that it's not significantly affecting iP4 owners.



    Clearly the degree of signal loss is important here. You've admitted so in the first paragraph by acknowledging that the iP4 may drop a call in a low signal area that the 3G and 3GS might not. What confuses me is how someone can acknowledge that and still say the iP4 anntenna doesn't have a problem. Claiming "all phones do it" is disingenous considering the greater degree to which reception can be affected on the iP4.



    One other point, Apple is a very new cell phone designer/manufacturer compared to most others. Antenna design is new to Apple, despite whatever engineers they might have hired from other companies. This "Apple knows best" in cell phone antenna design seems to be a major leap of faith, heck we saw new job listing info for antenna gurus recently, didn't we?
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  • Reply 135 of 240
    anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 7,124member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mstone View Post


    If the phone was unlocked, maybe. There should be a difference, but since it isn't going to happen, one will never know. I simply dislike non-transparent contracts, especially when there is no alternative. I am not implying that I want to save any money personally, as my phone is entirely provided by my company. It would just be more flexible and honest, for those who did want to save. Some people expressed interest in a no data plan - just txt and voice, restricting their data usage to wifi. Others need fewer minutes and more data. I just don't like being taken advantage of regardless of whether or not I can afford it.



    The only way we will get real competition, in the US at least, in wireless is when there is a single network standard and all phones are required to be unlocked. Only if you can take your phone to any network, and use all its functions there, will wireless carriers actually have to compete on an honest basis. But, unlocking doesn't mean that subsidies will go away. In fact, if anything, increased competition should result in higher subsidies and lower plan rates.
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  • Reply 136 of 240
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by GQB View Post


    With friends like this, who needs enemies...



    The iPhone 4 antenna is great. That's the irony of this whole thing. Reception in weak areas is far better than previous versions.

    What's particularly ironic is that the argument given by Apple haters is generally that "we geeks are really smart, and don't need Apple being nanny to us."

    Yet when Apple essentially puts a big 'X' on the one spot that might cause problems when bridged, these folks don't seem to be smart or energetic enough to move their pinky a millimeter.

    These folks DO need a nanny.



    All engineering is about trade-offs. My only criticism of Jobs' Friday appearance was that he didn't acknowledge this.



    For me (and apparently for the vast majority of iPhone 4 owners) this trade-off was WELL worth it.



    True that.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mstone View Post


    Personally I would have preferred that the iPhone was actually list price of $700 +/-. But the general population is bad with math. They would rather have subsidized plan where the entry price is low and you pay a premium for the service. ...



    I think the cheap iphone (and other cheap iproducts) has introduced allot of "trollage" into the Apple brand as well. Apple used to be a pretty tight clique of users who "really got it". How else could one justify $4,000+ for an obviously "inferior" product against a WondowzPC. Yeah maybe we were a little snobby, but there were so many PC fanatics to counteract our tecno-sophisticated snobbery, it didn't matter. Now the trolls are coming over to "our side". Send them back I say! "We don't need your help! Thank you!"



    This place smelled allot better without the trolls.
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  • Reply 137 of 240
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post


    Excellent post.



    I agree. He is the hammer of truth after all.
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  • Reply 138 of 240
    anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 7,124member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by StLBluesFan View Post


    Clearly the degree of signal loss is important here. You've admitted so in the first paragraph by acknowledging that the iP4 may drop a call in a low signal area that the 3G and 3GS might not. What confuses me is how someone can acknowledge that and still say the iP4 anntenna doesn't have a problem. Claiming "all phones do it" is disingenous considering the greater degree to which reception can be affected on the iP4.



    The reason I can acknowledge that and still say that the antenna is no more problematic that other phones is because the key word is "may". It also may not, and testing indicates that an iP4 may also hold on to signal and calls in low signals areas better than these other phones. So, which phone has the antenna problem? Or is it that they all have issues, some different, some similar, and that the line of the iP4 antenna being particularly problematic simply isn't true. They are all problematic in various circumstances. The only difference is that with the iP4, customers know exactly what those circumstances are, whereas with the others it remains somewhat murky.
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  • Reply 139 of 240
    chronsterchronster Posts: 1,894member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    You see, this is why I label you a troll. You aren't here for honest discussion, you're just here to take potshots and misrepresent facts. Just because you aren't a ranting lunatic, like many of the trolls, doesn't make you any less of a troll.



    Bullshit, you just don't like the fact that I'm right. He said he had previous versions of the iphone that wouldn't drop his calls, so it wasn't a network thing. I could have pointed this out, but after your snooty little remark about how it was a no-brainer, I decided to be a little annoying.



    Your bias is clear as day, and if anything, you could be the one labeled as a troll since your comments draw in more replies than mine do.
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  • Reply 140 of 240
    bartbuzzbartbuzz Posts: 131member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    No, you reject it as irrelevant because the iP4 and EVO don't use the same network, so any comparisons made regarding dropped calls at specific locations aren't valid.



    I mean, this isn't even a difficult one to figure out.



    Good point. I'll be interested to see a counterpoint.
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