No more iPhones For Me

jsjjsj
Posted:
in iPhone edited January 2014
I just bought the iPhone 4 last month and it will be the last Apple product I ever own. It's unfortunate because I frickin' love the 2 iPhones that I own (iPhone 3g, iPhone 4). Out of all companies in the world I can't believe Apple would even file for this kind of patent let alone designing and engineering it already. I even considered buying an Apple notebook early next year when I'm due to replace the PC notebook I own now. It will not happen now.



Read the whole MSNBC article through before you just chalk it up to "Oh it's because of jailbreakers. Who cares." I am so sick of corporate big brother attitudes in the business world.



Here's the link: http://technolog.msnbc.msn.com/_news...ne-kill-switch

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 20
    kedakeda Posts: 722member
    It seemed that the mention of jailbreaking was largely conjecture on the part of the author. When I read about this patent, it struck me as a security feature that would supplement a password protection scheme. Even now, you have the option to delete all data after 10 failed login attempts.



    Is it stated elsewhere that Apple would apply this to a jailbroken phone? Seems really questionable, since that has been ruled legal.
  • Reply 2 of 20
    jsjjsj Posts: 5member
    It's supposed to be a stand-alone "security" feature not just tied to the password feature. There's nothing illegal about it I'm sure but it goes too far in my opinion, so I'm doing the only thing I can do. Refrain from buying any future Apple products.



    It peeves me off and bums me out all at the same time.



    Hopefully, the droid based phones are going to be as good or better than the iPhone after my newly signed 2 year contract with AT&T is over. :-/
  • Reply 3 of 20
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JSJ View Post


    I just bought the iPhone 4 last month and it will be the last Apple product I ever own. It's unfortunate because I frickin' love the 2 iPhones that I own (iPhone 3g, iPhone 4). Out of all companies in the world I can't believe Apple would even file for this kind of patent let alone designing and engineering it already. I even considered buying an Apple notebook early next year when I'm due to replace the PC notebook I own now. It will not happen now.



    Read the whole MSNBC article through before you just chalk it up to "Oh it's because of jailbreakers. Who cares." I am so sick of corporate big brother attitudes in the business world.



    Here's the link: http://technolog.msnbc.msn.com/_news...ne-kill-switch





    Let's see, A Microsoft site having FUD-based gloom and doom to say about an Apple security patent. Hmmm. Surprising. Not...



    Anything can be used for anything. This patent is more about not having to have 5 dozen passwords to secure a mobile device and its uses than anything else.



    There are far easier things Apple could do with jail-breaking, like causing all known jailbreak methods to permanently brick the hardware, but they don't, even though it would be trivially simple to do. So calm down and realize that article was written by somebody whose payroll is directly subsidized by Microsoft. Of course they made it sound bad, that's what you do for your big dollar sugar-daddy namesake.
  • Reply 4 of 20
    kedakeda Posts: 722member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JSJ View Post


    It's supposed to be a stand-alone "security" feature not just tied to the password feature. There's nothing illegal about it I'm sure but it goes too far in my opinion, so I'm doing the only thing I can do. Refrain from buying any future Apple products.



    It peeves me off and bums me out all at the same time.



    Hopefully, the droid based phones are going to be as good or better than the iPhone after my newly signed 2 year contract with AT&T is over. :-/



    As I mentioned, I've understood this to be a security feature. I think it premature to boycott Apple because of an author's interpretation of how a feature could be used.



    More broadly speaking, biometric will become increasingly present over the coming years. This approach sounds like the phone would be "paired" with you, like a BT device. Maybe a bit creepy, but the use is legit.
  • Reply 5 of 20
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member
    He read a Microsoft Blog entry talking about potential uses of an Apple biometrics patent. The blog author (I just can call pure made up opinion schlock like that journalism) postulated that Apple could brick a phone if the user changed. So our illustrious original poster took the click-bait and went all apeshit on Apple for doing things that Apple never did, and will never do because they are so incredibly stupid.
  • Reply 6 of 20
    tulkastulkas Posts: 3,748member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hiro View Post


    He read a Microsoft Blog entry talking about potential uses of an Apple biometrics patent. The blog author (I just can call pure made up opinion schlock like that journalism) postulated that Apple could brick a phone if the user changed. So our illustrious original poster took the click-bait and went all apeshit on Apple for doing things that Apple never did, and will never do because they are so incredibly stupid.



    I remember in another thread when Hiro categorically stated that Apple would never use iAds to track location, device or user data. Anyone can pull any sort of claims out of their ass. It's too bad when they are subsequently unable to admit that they were wrong. This is a case in point.



    Now, Hiro claims the blogger "postulated that Apple could brick a phone if the user changed" In fact, for those that would read, it is pretty clear and right in the patent application. No postulating needed.



    How does the patent say an unauthorized user could be detected?

    Quote:

    [0005]In some embodiments, an unauthorized user can be detected by noting particular activities that can indicate suspicious behavior. For example, activities such as entering an incorrect password a predetermined number of times in a row, hacking of the electronic device, jailbreaking of the electronic device, unlocking of the electronic device, removing a SIM card from the electronic device, or moving a predetermined distance away from a synced device can be used to detect an unauthorized user.





    What does the patent application say the results could be?

    Quote:

    [0007]Instead or in addition, when an unauthorized user is detected, various functions of the electronic device can be restricted. For example, access to particular applications can be restricted, access to sensitive information can be restricted, sensitive information can be erased from the electronic device, or any combination of the above.



    Perhaps not bricked, but certainly rendered inoperable until restored (and so unjailbroken). One would think Hiro would at least lightly browse the patent application before telling us what it does and does not say.



    Now, Hiro knows Apple will never do this. He could be right. They may have simply filed the patent protectively. But, the fact is that they applied for the patent that details how they would/could do it if they decided to. It is dishonest or naive to try to claim they would never use it. Just like it was dishonest or naive to claim Apple would never use iAds to gather information. Or maybe just stupid. One does have to remember Hiro's story about the lesson his teacher felt compelled to share with him about being stupid.
  • Reply 7 of 20
    jsjjsj Posts: 5member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by calvins123 View Post


    Hey mate can you tell me in a bit more detail what got you so against the iphone 4 am contemplating buying one myself for my personal use



    I have the iPhone 4 and it's a very good phone. I just think that Apple is going too far with this new patent. They now have the option if they so choose to seriously invade my privacy if they decide that they want to. It just bothers me too much and I will no longer give Apple my business.



    I was seriously considering buying an Apple laptop and/or the next version of the iPad before they filed for this patent. I'm now going to stick with PC based notebooks. I will never buy an Apple product again. My next phone will be droid based.



    Hiro seems to be one of those people that believes that Apple and Steve Jobs can do no wrong and manages to be a bit snide when somebody dares to question them.



    Tulkas did a good job and touched on a few points about Apple's new patent. I have further objections to several more things that are listed in the patent as well.



    Basically it boils down to this, the iPhone 4 is a very good phone. If you want one then get one. I on the other hand will never purchase another Apple product again. I do not like or approve of the way they are conducting themselves so the only recourse that I have is to personally boycott them. I've done it before with a few other companies and their products.
  • Reply 8 of 20
    piotpiot Posts: 1,346member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JSJ View Post


    I was seriously considering buying an Apple laptop and/or the next version of the iPad before they filed for this patent. I'm now going to stick with PC based notebooks. I will never buy an Apple product again. My next phone will be droid based.



    You know how many people make comments (all over the web) starting out "I was seriously considering buying X... but now I have to buy a Y....." ?



    A fucking lot! It's the easiest troll in the book. I don't believe them... and I don't believe you.



    On the off chance that you are serious, you might like the Droid X.

    Droid X actually self-destructs if you try to mod it
  • Reply 9 of 20
    kedakeda Posts: 722member
    I know this thread is troll bait, but, for those who are interested, here is the patent:



    http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...L/unauthorized



    You will notice that the patent was filed in February of 2009, long before the recent ruling on jailbreaking.



    Tulkas' post included bolded sections of text that referenced the jailbreaking. These portions of the patent are no longer relevant, because the courts have ruled jailbreaking to be a legal activity that the consumer may undertake. Strip the jailbreaking language from the patent, and you have a submission that seems to represent a fairly robust security feature.



    Any security can, of course, be executed in a heavy-handed manner. But we have no clue as to how, or if, Apple will implement any of these patent claims; and it is the implementation that matters. It is inane to call for a boycott at this point.



    JSJ, do you plan to maintain your boycott if none of these theories transform into reality?
  • Reply 10 of 20
    tulkastulkas Posts: 3,748member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Keda View Post


    I know this thread is troll bait, but, for those who are interested, here is the patent:



    http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...L/unauthorized



    You will notice that the patent was filed in February of 2009, long before the recent ruling on jailbreaking.



    Tulkas' post included bolded sections of text that referenced the jailbreaking. These portions of the patent are no longer relevant, because the courts have ruled jailbreaking to be a legal activity that the consumer may undertake. Strip the jailbreaking language from the patent, and you have a submission that seems to represent a fairly robust security feature.



    Any security can, of course, be executed in a heavy-handed manner. But we have no clue as to how, or if, Apple will implement any of these patent claims; and it is the implementation that matters. It is inane to call for a boycott at this point.



    JSJ, do you plan to maintain your boycott if none of these theories transform into reality?



    Why strip out the jailbreaking language? The LoC ruling says jailbreaking by the end user is legal for the next 3 years. So what? It doesn't say Apple can't react to prevent jailbreaking. Entering a wrong password or removing your SIM card are also legal and they are also included as activities that could trigger the security mechanism.



    There is every chance that Apple would never implement this patent and if they did that they would not include jailbreaks as one of the triggers. But why do people keep trying to make up reasons why they couldn't? If they decide not to, great. The LoC ruling has no bearing on if they could. The class action lawsuits they would suffer for bricking phones is a much more likely reason they wouldn't do it.



    I agree that it is silly to want to boycott at this point.
  • Reply 11 of 20
    jsjjsj Posts: 5member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by piot View Post


    You know how many people make comments (all over the web) starting out "I was seriously considering buying X... but now I have to buy a Y....." ?



    A fucking lot! It's the easiest troll in the book. I don't believe them... and I don't believe you.



    On the off chance that you are serious, you might like the Droid X.

    Droid X actually self-destructs if you try to mod it



    *sigh* Why do you all think it would be difficult for me to not buy from Apple? I do still enjoy the PC platform laptop and desktop that I own. I've never had a chance to like or dislike Apple's own laptops so not buying one wouldn't hurt in the least. You can't miss what you don't know. In fact, until I used one at the Apple store to pay my AT&T phone bill before I bought the iPhone 4 that was the first time I had ever even touched an Apple computer since the Apple IIe. When I did use it I thought to myself, "there's almost no difference between this and a PC-based computer". I would have pretty much bought it for the learning experience of using a different computer platform. Not to mention that some of them look cool.



    I use an iPhone because right now overall it's the best phone available and I can tinker with it all that I want to. I think the antenna uproar was silly. If the iPhone had stayed stagnant I would have bought a different brand of cell phone this time around anyways. It made a huge leap forward so I it made my decision to buy the iPhone 4 an easy choice.
  • Reply 12 of 20
    jsjjsj Posts: 5member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Keda View Post


    JSJ, do you plan to maintain your boycott if none of these theories transform into reality?



    If Apple comes out and says that all they wanted that patent for was to attempt to thwart jailbreaking then I will be perfectly fine with that. I enjoy the back and forth pissing match between Apple and the actual people who come up with the workarounds that enable jailbreaking.



    It was the same way in the old DirecTV days. They even once thought they had permanently put a stop to hacking into their cards and got cocky enough to encode at the very end of the looping program a small piece of code that translated to "Game Over". That was not game over because within a week or two more hacks were back up and available. It finally took several major federal police raids on companies that were making money off of the hacking to stop the practice altogether. It was fun while it lasted though.



    If Apple comes out and says that they have no intention of ever implementing the biometrics stated in the patent then I will not personally boycott them. They have much more to lose than they would have to gain if they end up lying about that. If they stick to their guns and stay quiet about it then I will stay far away from their products. Like I said before, "I can't miss what I don't know." The same goes with the iPhone, if there's a better superior competing model out there in two years when my AT&T contract is up then I would have no problem going away from the iPhone. But if they insist on having the option open to using biometrics for me to use a device that I own then I promise that the iPhone 4 will be the last Apple product I ever own even if it's still the best option in 2 years.
  • Reply 13 of 20
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Keda View Post


    I know this thread is troll bait, but, for those who are interested, here is the patent:



    http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...L/unauthorized



    You will notice that the patent was filed in February of 2009, long before the recent ruling on jailbreaking.



    Tulkas' post included bolded sections of text that referenced the jailbreaking. These portions of the patent are no longer relevant, because the courts have ruled jailbreaking to be a legal activity that the consumer may undertake. Strip the jailbreaking language from the patent, and you have a submission that seems to represent a fairly robust security feature.



    Any security can, of course, be executed in a heavy-handed manner. But we have no clue as to how, or if, Apple will implement any of these patent claims; and it is the implementation that matters. It is inane to call for a boycott at this point.



    JSJ, do you plan to maintain your boycott if none of these theories transform into reality?



    Actually the only thing the Library of Congress said about Jailbreaking is that it is not illegal. You cannot be prosecuted for doing it. The DMCA exception ruling does not force Apple to allow jailbreaking, nor force them to support a jailbroke phone. None of that patent info is contravened at all.



    The fear JSJ is showing is irrational. Nothing in the patent Apple applied for adds any new nefarious capability to any hardware or even enables it. The nonexistent but possibly nefarious things he is worried about have been possible since the point remote wipe and Find My Phone was delivered in iOS. Has ANYONE complained that remote wipe or Find My Phone could be used to wipe data and render a jailbroke phone inoperable? NO!!! But its just as possible and ridiculous a thing to worry about.
  • Reply 14 of 20
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JSJ View Post


    If Apple comes out and says that they have no intention of ever implementing the biometrics stated in the patent then I will not personally boycott them. They have much more to lose than they would have to gain if they end up lying about that. If they stick to their guns and stay quiet about it then I will stay far away from their products. Like I said before, "I can't miss what I don't know." The same goes with the iPhone, if there's a better superior competing model out there in two years when my AT&T contract is up then I would have no problem going away from the iPhone. But if they insist on having the option open to using biometrics for me to use a device that I own then I promise that the iPhone 4 will be the last Apple product I ever own even if it's still the best option in 2 years.



    I'm fairly sure Apple WILL eventually implement biometrics. I'm also quite sure that ALL manufacturers will do it as well within a half dozen years or so. There are already quite a few PC laptops that come with biometric ID gear built in from the factory and a fair number of PCMCIA fingerprint readers available too. There are even fingerprint readers equipped USB sticks that will slick the data if they are accessed without a valid print.



    So who ya gonna buy from when that is the direction information security is going industry wide? I guarantee you Microsoft, Intel and AMD already have dozens of biometric related patents granted or applied for already too, you just don't see them posted on a Fan Site because nobody is rabid about their stuff.
  • Reply 15 of 20
    kedakeda Posts: 722member
    I'm not a lawyer, but I think Apple would find themselves in a shaky legal position if they were taken to court for bricking jailbroken phones...considering the ruling. This doesn't mean that Apple would need to offer any support for a phone that has been jailbroken. Maybe the could use this to create a persistent record of "questionable" activity, then use that to deny support to phones that had been JB'd and restored. But why do that?



    JSJ, I don't question whether or not you could give up Apple products-lots of people use other platforms. It's just that you seem generally satisfied, and are making long term decisions based on a possible outcome. I'd think the same if you were swearing off HTC for a similar reason.



    For now, I am going to hope that Apple realizes the negative reaction that misusing technology like this would cause amongst consumers. Business sense alone should temper their use of the patent.
  • Reply 16 of 20
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member
  • Reply 17 of 20
    kedakeda Posts: 722member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hiro View Post










    Well said, sir.
  • Reply 18 of 20
    pmzpmz Posts: 3,433member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JSJ View Post


    If Apple comes out and says that all they wanted that patent for was to attempt to thwart jailbreaking then I will be perfectly fine with that. I enjoy the back and forth pissing match between Apple and the actual people who come up with the workarounds that enable jailbreaking.



    It was the same way in the old DirecTV days. They even once thought they had permanently put a stop to hacking into their cards and got cocky enough to encode at the very end of the looping program a small piece of code that translated to "Game Over". That was not game over because within a week or two more hacks were back up and available. It finally took several major federal police raids on companies that were making money off of the hacking to stop the practice altogether. It was fun while it lasted though.



    If Apple comes out and says that they have no intention of ever implementing the biometrics stated in the patent then I will not personally boycott them. They have much more to lose than they would have to gain if they end up lying about that. If they stick to their guns and stay quiet about it then I will stay far away from their products. Like I said before, "I can't miss what I don't know." The same goes with the iPhone, if there's a better superior competing model out there in two years when my AT&T contract is up then I would have no problem going away from the iPhone. But if they insist on having the option open to using biometrics for me to use a device that I own then I promise that the iPhone 4 will be the last Apple product I ever own even if it's still the best option in 2 years.







    So do you make every decision based off online articles you stumble upon? Because if this patent which covers a "possibility" bothers you this much, I've got a whole ton of actual reality you can look up....quite a few more companies and governments you'll never trust again.



    Just saying, you think this is bad, it gets a lot worse out in the real world. Apple is a culprit, but the least of your worries.
  • Reply 19 of 20
    pmzpmz Posts: 3,433member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hiro View Post


    I'm fairly sure Apple WILL eventually implement biometrics. I'm also quite sure that ALL manufacturers will do it as well within a half dozen years or so. There are already quite a few PC laptops that come with biometric ID gear built in from the factory and a fair number of PCMCIA fingerprint readers available too. There are even fingerprint readers equipped USB sticks that will slick the data if they are accessed without a valid print.



    So who ya gonna buy from when that is the direction information security is going industry wide? I guarantee you Microsoft, Intel and AMD already have dozens of biometric related patents granted or applied for already too, you just don't see them posted on a Fan Site because nobody is rabid about their stuff.



    If anyone had any common sense, no one would be buying any of those and future biometric products, as its truly the last thing that separates us from being totally controlled by the products we buy.



    Sad state of affairs that world will be. And to think its only a few years away. And to think there are thousands of geeks who think it would be cool, to have their life controlled and ruled by biometrics.

    Ugh, makes me physically sick.
  • Reply 20 of 20
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pmz View Post


    If anyone had any common sense, no one would be buying any of those and future biometric products, as its truly the last thing that separates us from being totally controlled by the products we buy.



    Sad state of affairs that world will be. And to think its only a few years away. And to think there are thousands of geeks who think it would be cool, to have their life controlled and ruled by biometrics.

    Ugh, makes me physically sick.



    That's an awful defeatist attitude. You see yourself as being controlled, in reality you are only uninformed. I don't see another security tool I get to use to protect my data as my being someone else's control. it will actually help me and my equipment from being illicitly put under someone else's control.
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