Why I'm not yet ready to lose the ODD on my MacBook
For me, one of the most significant aspects of the new MacBook Air launch was that the back-up software files were provided on a USB flash drive instead of a DVD.
Since i got my new 13" MacBook Pro in October 2008, I can count the number of times I've played a DVD on the fingers of one hand. The only other times I've used it were to load Office, iWork and Snow Leopard. That's still less than ten times. More and more software is now being made available on USB drives. Perhaps most significant of all, is the ability to buy and rent movies via iTunes. So you'd think that stripping the DVD player from future macBooks makes perfect sense, right?
Not so fast.
While there are only three things prevent me from ever buying a DVD again, the trouble is that they're pretty big issues. First, is my collection of DVDs: if I lose my on-board player, how will I play them? Second, the iTunes shop does not yet have a complete list of movie titles: if you want to get certain movies titles you still need to buy them on DVD and play them on a DVD player. Third, buying movies on iTunes is great, but it sure chews-up disk space. When you're using expensive flash SSD drives, movies can end up costing an arm and a leg.
So, before i buy a MacBook Pro without an on-board DVD player I need four things to happen:
1. I need software with the ability to convert existing and legitimately bought DVD collections into electronic files as i do with music CDs. Hollywood needs to get over copyright protection issues.
2. I need to be able to buy movies in a format other than DVD, such as a flash storage USB drive.
3. I need iTunes to offer a more comprehensive range of movie titles
4. I need a MacBooks with 1Tb+ hard drives and preferably a ITb SSD drive.
I am sure we progressing towards thee goals very well; however, it is likely to be sometime before they are de facto standards for future products. For all these reasons, I still need a laptop with a DVD drive.
I think Apple is well aware of this, so I don't expect any hardware changes for the next MacBook Pro refresh in January 2011 with the possible exception of USB 3.0 (if indeed Sandy Bridge or some third-party controllers support it in Apple systems).
What do the great and the good here think about this?
Since i got my new 13" MacBook Pro in October 2008, I can count the number of times I've played a DVD on the fingers of one hand. The only other times I've used it were to load Office, iWork and Snow Leopard. That's still less than ten times. More and more software is now being made available on USB drives. Perhaps most significant of all, is the ability to buy and rent movies via iTunes. So you'd think that stripping the DVD player from future macBooks makes perfect sense, right?
Not so fast.
While there are only three things prevent me from ever buying a DVD again, the trouble is that they're pretty big issues. First, is my collection of DVDs: if I lose my on-board player, how will I play them? Second, the iTunes shop does not yet have a complete list of movie titles: if you want to get certain movies titles you still need to buy them on DVD and play them on a DVD player. Third, buying movies on iTunes is great, but it sure chews-up disk space. When you're using expensive flash SSD drives, movies can end up costing an arm and a leg.
So, before i buy a MacBook Pro without an on-board DVD player I need four things to happen:
1. I need software with the ability to convert existing and legitimately bought DVD collections into electronic files as i do with music CDs. Hollywood needs to get over copyright protection issues.
2. I need to be able to buy movies in a format other than DVD, such as a flash storage USB drive.
3. I need iTunes to offer a more comprehensive range of movie titles
4. I need a MacBooks with 1Tb+ hard drives and preferably a ITb SSD drive.
I am sure we progressing towards thee goals very well; however, it is likely to be sometime before they are de facto standards for future products. For all these reasons, I still need a laptop with a DVD drive.
I think Apple is well aware of this, so I don't expect any hardware changes for the next MacBook Pro refresh in January 2011 with the possible exception of USB 3.0 (if indeed Sandy Bridge or some third-party controllers support it in Apple systems).
What do the great and the good here think about this?
Comments
I've had no problem ripping DVDs using existing (free) software.
An external 2TB HDD for less than $100 will store a LOT of ripped DVD's ... you certainly don't need to cart 2000 hours worth of video around with you at all times!
1. I need software with the ability to convert existing and legitimately bought DVD collections into electronic files as i do with music CDs. Hollywood needs to get over copyright protection issues.
I think if Apple had a system in iTunes that recognised discs you inserted were legitimate, they could offer to give you a digital version for a small fee.
2. I need to be able to buy movies in a format other than DVD, such as a flash storage USB drive.
Either that or be able to reuse an SD card or portable HDD. For example, you could post a 32GB SD card to Netflix or Amazon, they could copy a movie onto it and mail it back to you.
3. I need iTunes to offer a more comprehensive range of movie titles
Yes, even if they partnered with other services to get this, they really need more content.
4. I need a MacBooks with 1Tb+ hard drives and preferably a ITb SSD drive.
I don't think that will arrive in SSD until 2012 with 16nm but they should leave enough room in the MBP for more than one drive to allow for RAID.
I agree with the external DVD option though. If Apple take out the internal optical, they get so much room (25% of the laptop or more) to be able to cut costs, which can easily reach $100 that they can put towards the built-in SSD. External drives while a nuisance to use are inexpensive and you can get a Blu-Ray drive while we wait for networks to reach 10MBps everywhere.
If the network providers would stop holding everyone up with their greed, we'd have that speed over the mobile networks by now. Then you could stream 720p to any device anywhere, even from your own home to your mobile device.
All of your concerns are taken care of by having an external DVD drive. Plug it in and use it when you need to, but no need to carry it around and sacrifice that battery space the other 99% of the time.
I've had no problem ripping DVDs using existing (free) software.
An external 2TB HDD for less than $100 will store a LOT of ripped DVD's ... you certainly don't need to cart 2000 hours worth of video around with you at all times!
I don't know about you, but i use my MBP as a primary computer. It goes with me to and from the office and wherever i travel. if i had a MBP without an on-board DVD drive, you can bet that the one time i don't take my portable DVD will be the one time i need it. (We call this Sod's Law in the UK.) And, as soon as you start carrying around a DVD drive, you defeat the purpose of buying a lightweight computer in the first place.
BTW, I'd be most grateful if you tell me what legal software I can use for ripping DVD movies to my Mac.
... I can count the number of times I've played a DVD on the fingers of one hand. The only other times I've used it were to load Office, iWork and Snow Leopard. ...
You are stepping on your own line. Office 2011 is available from Microsoft as a digital download. So too are Adobe's apps. In fact, I receive my Adobe purchases exclusively online. With the coming MacOS X App Store, virtually every Mac software title will be available via digital download. Optical discs as a medium of software distribution are going the way of Philips cassettes for this purpose.
For me, one of the most significant aspects of the new MacBook Air launch was that the back-up software files were provided on a USB flash drive instead of a DVD.
Considering everything that was introduced on those models I have to wonder about your value system. USB dongles are nothing more than the floppies of this decade.
Since i got my new 13" MacBook Pro in October 2008, I can count the number of times I've played a DVD on the fingers of one hand.
Funny I got me MBP early in 2008 too. Like you only very occasionally have I put the optical drive to use. However it has been used just a touch more recently to import a couple of my favorite movies. In the end if it was an external solution it would make no difference in usability.
The only other times I've used it were to load Office, iWork and Snow Leopard. That's still less than ten times. More and more software is now being made available on USB drives. Perhaps most significant of all, is the ability to buy and rent movies via iTunes. So you'd think that stripping the DVD player from future macBooks makes perfect sense, right?
Right perfect sense!
Apple can get rid of that wasted space and replace it with a battery with more capacity, add expansion ports/slots or use the space for more internal parts. My favorite longing is for a MBP with four internal slots for those new blade SSDs.
In any event by going forward Apple has the opportunity to really innovate hardware. You can't do that if you are wedded to the past.
Not so fast.
So now what excuses to stay wedded to the past.
While there are only three things prevent me from ever buying a DVD again, the trouble is that they're pretty big issues. First, is my collection of DVDs: if I lose my on-board player, how will I play them?
1. An external drive
2. Rip the files to your internal storage!
3. Download the file from iTunes.
4. Get a DVD player for your TV.
Second, the iTunes shop does not yet have a complete list of movie titles: if you want to get certain movies titles you still need to buy them on DVD and play them on a DVD player.
Is there any store in your community that has everything you need to live?
Just like in your local community you choose stores based on what they have available for your current needs. In anyevent if you have an external drive use that to view your DVDs. If you really like the movie transfer it to internal storage.
Third, buying movies on iTunes is great, but it sure chews-up disk space. When you're using expensive flash SSD drives, movies can end up costing an arm and a leg.
Again an external drive is your answer. With today's technology you can hundreds of movies in one small external drive. This effectively compacts a bunch of CDs into a tiny light weight box.
So, before i buy a MacBook Pro without an on-board DVD player I need four things to happen:
1. I need software with the ability to convert existing and legitimately bought DVD collections into electronic files as i do with music CDs. Hollywood needs to get over copyright protection issues.
Readily available.
2. I need to be able to buy movies in a format other than DVD, such as a flash storage USB drive.
1. Buy the movies on iTunes and transfer them to a USB stick or an SD card.
2. Consider streaming movies. Depending upon the price it can be cheaper even if you end up viewing the flick twice.
3. I heard talk some time back that there was a movement afoot in Japan to offer up movies for sale on SD cards. So maybe this is a possibility. The problem is it looks like the industry is walking away from physical media.
4. Do a DVD to electronic format cOnversion yourself.
3. I need iTunes to offer a more comprehensive range of movie titles
I actually agree with you 100% on this issue. As earlier stated no store is perfect so in this regard what we really need is more online distributiOn. I'm not sure who has the influence here to get the studios on board though. Ultimately I think one of the big studios will need to come up with a partners ship with Amazon or the like.
4. I need a MacBooks with 1Tb+ hard drives and preferably a ITb SSD drive.
Well I'm in agreement more or less here too. Part of being successful here though is departing from the past. Deleting the optical gives Apple the room for both a bigger battery and more internal storage. On the other hand 1TB laptop drives are already here so this should be a snap.
In the realm of SSDs imagine a laptop with four or more of those blade SSDs. That would be enough for your 1TB considering 256GB blades. If they come out with blades built on higher density packaging 2TB of SSD might be possible. If Apple really wanted to helP us out here they would implement some sort of logical volume management.
When I first saw the pics of these blade processors the first thing that ran through my mind was that several of these could easily go into a laptop side by side.
I am sure we progressing towards thee goals very well; however, it is likely to be sometime before they are de facto standards for future products. For all these reasons, I still need a laptop with a DVD drive.
First off it sounds like you are making excuses. Second some of those technologies are only a revision away.
I think Apple is well aware of this, so I don't expect any hardware changes for the next MacBook Pro refresh in January 2011 with the possible exception of USB 3.0 (if indeed Sandy Bridge or some third-party controllers support it in Apple systems).
I'd say the writing is on the wall and that the next platform update will be a major one. The funny thing is that USB will likely be an after thought if it comes at all.
Besides what is Apple aware of? Seriously, is it that most Apple laptop owners hardly ever use their optical drive. Are they aware of the fact that optical drives effectively waste both space and power in a laptop. Are they clued into new technology and concepts ahead of the general population. From the stand point if offering innovative products I think Apple is in a position where they have to question the wisdom of optical drives in laptops. Especially smaller laptops.
What do the great and the good here think about this?
Well for one there are no great and good only those that struggle to be so.
As to what I think; to put it bluntly you have worked yourself up over nothing. Apple will sit down and go over it's design choice and put into production the machines it thinks will have the greatest consummer interest within a viable cost structure.
As I've already stated I suspect a major overhaul of the entire line. There are just to many things coming together in the near future to stay with old concepts of what a laptop should be. Think about it; LightPeak, USB 3, Sandy Bridge, AMD Fusion, new display tech, blade SSDs and a host of otherthings means the material is inplace to justify an overhaul that might be around for five years.
Of course I've been wrong before with the Mac Pro but laptops are Apples bread and butter now. They know that the gravy train requires constant feeding and products that distinguish it from the competition. So yeah I'm expecting a lot more than USB 3.
BTW, I'd be most grateful if you tell me what legal software I can use for ripping DVD movies to my Mac.
I guess I can't really speak to the law in the UK, but in the U.S. we are allowed to rip DVD's for personal archival use... (not to distribute, of course!) See... when WE buy a dvd, we're not really buying the plastic disc (or even the data on it), we're buying a license to use the data on that disc.
Handbrake gets around MOST dvd drm quite well. It IS free, but like any freeware, if it works well and you're gonna use it, you really ought to make a donation to the creators!
FWIW, I don't like the idea of a MBP without an optical drive.
Whereas I LOVE the idea of a 15" MacBook Air!
The MPAA's press releases would tell you that ripping a DVD for personal use is illegal, but frankly, I'm not sure why anyone would care what they have to say on any subject.
The RIAA says ripping a CD is also illegal, so neither of them has any clue about anything.
The RIAA says ripping a CD is also illegal, so neither of them has any clue about anything.
The crux of the issue is that movies and music are different in one way. Software like iTunes can rip CDs without circumventing any copy protection- because there is none built into the Audio CD format.
DVDs, though, have copy protection built into them. It is weak copy protection and was cracked long ago, but it exists, and it means that software to rip DVDs technically violates the DMCA in the United States (circumventing copy protection is illegal).
Of course, there's plenty of software to rip DVDs. I guess some people are paranoid about this, as evidenced by this thread, but the truth is that no one cares. No one will even know you're doing it if it is for personal use.
FWIW, I don't like the idea of a MBP without an optical drive.
They could daily drop it from the thirteen inch MBP as there is better uses for that space. The 15" machine though is a mixed bag, being that it is more of a pro machine than the 13". It comes down to how they can best make use of all the space.
Personally I could live without any built in optical drive. It just isn't a big deal anymore. In any event all of these patent releases has me primed for a overhauled MBP.
Why not a new AirPort Extreme with an ODD built in? Just install things over your home network to any computer on it.
The way I see it the optcal will stay in the 17" machine the rest are unknown.
The problem with moving the drive into items we always use or keeping it in high-end items is that it maintains the dependence. When Apple removed the floppy, if they'd stuck it in a router, people would still use them. Optical discs need to be eradicated from the entire lineup including the Mac Pro and iMac where there's plenty of room for them.
Apple's Superdrives are the worst drives I've ever used. They are slow, noisy and incompatible with disc types and the metal rim scratches the discs if they make contact. Optical is a legacy technology and wastes far too much room inside every machine. I'd much rather that the saving from removing the optical put those SSD chips in every machine.
An external DVD is <£30 and it can be shared in a household and if you need Blu-Ray, a slim external is £160. It's one less thing inside the machine that devalues it when it breaks.
This won't maintain the dependence because eventually these USB optical drives will gather dust on the shelf just like the USB floppy drives we had.
The uses for optical are:
- self-authored movies
- sending files to people
- buying games and movies
The internet already takes care of games because people use Steam all the time - 30 million accounts and 1200 games. Movie distribution is getting there and Netflix are primarily an online service now. For users uploading large files, it's still quicker to burn onto a disc and that's fine but it's not something everyone needs to do regularly so theres no need to give everyone and optical drive sealed in the machine.
I agree that it's a nuisance having to carry an external, especially if you forget it but it's the only way to get rid of them and we do need to get rid of them. Once Flash gets to 1/4 the price in 2-3 years, a 4GB SD card will cost <$1 so people can use them for sharing personal content and holds nearly as much as a single layer DVD.
The problem with moving the drive into items we always use or keeping it in high-end items is that it maintains the dependence. When Apple removed the floppy, if they'd stuck it in a router, people would still use them. Optical discs need to be eradicated from the entire lineup including the Mac Pro and iMac where there's plenty of room for them.
You could delete the optical today and I wouldn't mis it. The problem is many people do need it. for them there isn't a good solution/alternative that is economically viable.
Apple's Superdrives are the worst drives I've ever used. They are slow, noisy and incompatible with disc types and the metal rim scratches the discs if they make contact. Optical is a legacy technology and wastes far too much room inside every machine. I'd much rather that the saving from removing the optical put those SSD chips in every machine.
I agree, at least in the case of a laptop, however not for desktops. At least not now.
Frankly my desire pretty much aligns with yours as you may have noticed I'm really hoping the coming MBP's have at least four of those slots for the blade storage modules. This is the best way to balance initial machine expense against the falling prices on flash. Plus for people that really need the initial capacity it will be there if they have the $$$.
An external DVD is <£30 and it can be shared in a household and if you need Blu-Ray, a slim external is £160. It's one less thing inside the machine that devalues it when it breaks.
Considering my experiences with optical drives having an external would probably be cheaper, it is certainly easier to repair them. At least in a laptop.
This won't maintain the dependence because eventually these USB optical drives will gather dust on the shelf just like the USB floppy drives we had.
This will eventually happen for everyone and for the most part has happened for me. However not everyone will drop optical media as fast as they did floppy. For many there really isn't a better alternative.
The uses for optical are:
- self-authored movies
- sending files to people
- buying games and movies
The internet already takes care of games because people use Steam all the time - 30 million accounts and 1200 games. Movie distribution is getting there and Netflix are primarily an online service now. For users uploading large files, it's still quicker to burn onto a disc and that's fine but it's not something everyone needs to do regularly so theres no need to give everyone and optical drive sealed in the machine.
I agree that it's a nuisance having to carry an external, especially if you forget it but it's the only way to get rid of them and we do need to get rid of them. Once Flash gets to 1/4 the price in 2-3 years, a 4GB SD card will cost <$1 so people can use them for sharing personal content and holds nearly as much as a single layer DVD.
Flash is interesting but I don't see it as being any more reliable that CD's. This will only get worst with the higher density chips that are expected soon.
This brings up an interesting question in that just how high can flash capacity go before it becomes so unreliable that it can't be used for long term secondary storage.
Flash is interesting but I don't see it as being any more reliable that CD's. This will only get worst with the higher density chips that are expected soon.
This brings up an interesting question in that just how high can flash capacity go before it becomes so unreliable that it can't be used for long term secondary storage.
You make an interesting point about the reliability of flash memory. I just don't think that that unreliable high density storage disks will survive if there is a risk of data loss. We live in an age of rapid peer-to-peer communication. Word of mouth disparagement will kill bad drives in a heartbeat. A few years back, Dell started using selling laptops with very cheap drives - it's what made it's PCs so cheap. People very quickly stopped buying Dell or replaced their crap OEM drives with better ones.
Flash is here to stay. Unreliable flash will only ever be a flash in the pan before being flushed down the pan. That said, flash the concept, i.e. Re-usable solid state memory modules with no moving parts, is fast becoming a universal standard. In time, I suspect all computers will junk fragile disk drives for flash. What is not yet established is the best way to deliver flash functionality. I am sure new technologies will ensure we get massive capacities that store eta safely indefinitely.
While we need to get both flash software and hardware standards harmonised across the industry, we also need to standardise the hardware connection that links a portable flash drive to a computer. USB has been excellent because it has been so universally used. FireWire may be faster, but it is less commonly used. We can only hope that USB 3.0 replaces both and is used by everyone. With common flash and connector standards, we will truly be able to junk on-board DVD drives.
The problem is many people do need it. for them there isn't a good solution/alternative that is economically viable.
Digital downloads work for all software and music. Movie distribution is the only real problem because we can't yet push 45GB down a cable per user per movie. We don't need to of course as 5GB per movie would be enough for 1080p but still, broadband needs to be faster before optical can be taken out of the equation for film distribution entirely. That doesn't mean we should hold back from moving towards that goal though.
If you give people a comfort zone, they're going to use it. If you don't need something new, why bother expending effort progressing technology? It's the same deal with Adobe Flash. If Apple had bundled Flash on iOS, HTML 5 would have had next to no progress.
So what takes its place? Well external DVD and Blu-Ray would serve to wean people off optical storage for anything besides archival use. Then we use SD cards for file sharing. That can include movies btw. There's no reason why you can't buy a single 32GB SD card and then mail it to Amazon to get an HD 1080p digital movie with versions for mobile devices and they mail it back.
Concerning leaving the optical inside the desktops, all that's going to happen is people who do send files will burn discs and send them to laptop owners. Without the optical, the sides of the iMac can be tapered much thinner and the chin can be removed entirely so that it looks like the Cinema display.
Flash is interesting but I don't see it as being any more reliable that CD's. This will only get worst with the higher density chips that are expected soon.
This year we will get 512GB SSD with MLC, beyond that, they can start to move towards more reliable SLC with similar density. Flash memory is just as reliable as HDD currently, they just need to improve wear-levelling algorithms and the controllers. The technology itself is ok.
This brings up an interesting question in that just how high can flash capacity go before it becomes so unreliable that it can't be used for long term secondary storage.
The density already exceeds optical though. Blu-Ray density is 12.5Gbit/in^2 and SSD/Flash is nearly 200Gbit/in^2. So while SSD isn't great as an archival format, the cost vs density means that it doesn't have to be. You will rarely have 50GB+ of data that never changes. so you just copy your entire backup every 2 years or so and it will take minutes - it would take days to duplicate the Blu-Ray backup. The biggest benefit of Blu-Ray is for people storing raw movie files but an external optical drive is still the best option for price/performance and maintenance.
Too often this discussion leads to the state where it's optical or no optical. Most people would agree that we can't eliminate optical overnight but it certainly needs to be phased out and now is a perfect time to start doing it. I would suggest that Apple start by externalising all optical drives but including them at the time of purchase and simply allowing a choice between multiple drives. So an Apple one would be included in the price, a 3rd party DVDRW might be $20 less, Sony's slim Blu-Ray drive might be $100 more and Apple would just update the DVD player app to play BD-R movies.
... I would suggest that Apple start by externalising all optical drives but including them at the time of purchase and simply allowing a choice between multiple drives. So an Apple one would be included in the price...
That's just so un-Apple like though. Apple products are single units... everything built in. It's simple, clean, aesthetically pleasing.
I'm DO think they'll ditch the optical, but an external won't be included with the iMacs or notebooks. They'll make sure there are available units, whether Apple or 3rd party, but it will have to be purchased separately.