Sex Change
[quote] European Court of Human Rights, in Strasbourg, upheld Christine Goodwin's right to be a woman. The judges unanimously ruled that her country ? Britain ? had breached her right to privacy and her right to marry by refusing to accept that, though born a man, she was now a woman. <hr></blockquote>
I've read with interest the coverage that the case of Christine Goodwin has attracted. One glaring fact seems to have been overlooked.
I have felt for some time that the message that our society sends to its sons is that they are of little value. Pilloried in popular culture as weak and inadequate, boys are told that they communicate badly, lack empathy, cannot multi task and are all potential rapist's. We in the UK have a legal system that pursues 'suspected' fathers for their cash unless and until they can prove a child is not theirs whilst discriminating appallingly against responsible fathers who want access, let alone custody when a relationship fails. Men accused of rape are named immediately and their lives ruined, whilst women who make the claim remain anonymous even if the accusation is proved to be malicious.
If I as a man want equal treatment with women (with regard to a pension or retirement age) I must apparantly mutilate my body.
A person, genetically male, who surgically and by administration of drugs alters the appearance, if not function, of their body, if this decision is followed, will be allowed to retire at the age of sixty with full pension rights. Whilst millions of men who do not resort to such drastic measures continue in work to pay for it. This is all the more unjust when considered in the light of the inequitable (though this may be no ones fault
) life spans of women and men.
It seems that this case just goes to show that discrimination against men cannot be allowed to continue once that man becomes a woman. It would be nice to see someone sticking up for men for a change.
What do you think, is it time for a 'vocal' movement on behalf of men?
<a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-2985-353374,00.html"; target="_blank">http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-2985-353374,00.html</a>;
<a href="http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/legal/story.jsp?story=314294"; target="_blank">http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/legal/story.jsp?story=314294</a>;
[ 07-16-2002: Message edited by: Zarathustra ]</p>
I've read with interest the coverage that the case of Christine Goodwin has attracted. One glaring fact seems to have been overlooked.
I have felt for some time that the message that our society sends to its sons is that they are of little value. Pilloried in popular culture as weak and inadequate, boys are told that they communicate badly, lack empathy, cannot multi task and are all potential rapist's. We in the UK have a legal system that pursues 'suspected' fathers for their cash unless and until they can prove a child is not theirs whilst discriminating appallingly against responsible fathers who want access, let alone custody when a relationship fails. Men accused of rape are named immediately and their lives ruined, whilst women who make the claim remain anonymous even if the accusation is proved to be malicious.
If I as a man want equal treatment with women (with regard to a pension or retirement age) I must apparantly mutilate my body.
A person, genetically male, who surgically and by administration of drugs alters the appearance, if not function, of their body, if this decision is followed, will be allowed to retire at the age of sixty with full pension rights. Whilst millions of men who do not resort to such drastic measures continue in work to pay for it. This is all the more unjust when considered in the light of the inequitable (though this may be no ones fault
) life spans of women and men. It seems that this case just goes to show that discrimination against men cannot be allowed to continue once that man becomes a woman. It would be nice to see someone sticking up for men for a change.
What do you think, is it time for a 'vocal' movement on behalf of men?
<a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-2985-353374,00.html"; target="_blank">http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-2985-353374,00.html</a>;
<a href="http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/legal/story.jsp?story=314294"; target="_blank">http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/legal/story.jsp?story=314294</a>;
[ 07-16-2002: Message edited by: Zarathustra ]</p>
Comments
I agree with a lot of your points (esp. the potential rapist part. Soo stupid argument. I am not potential anything. I either do something or I don´t) but I fail to see the connection with the quote. Individual freedom should especially be cared for when people say that for the good of the whole the indivisual should behave in a certaint way. If a couple choose that the woman should stay home and raise the children etc. they should not be told by anyone hat that is wrong because it is part of the traditional family pattern that discriminate women. IF the family have chosen it (and have not just copied their parents way of life) its nobodies buisness) the same whit this male. If he chooses to be a woman then its his buisness and not mine or yours.
I know a few transsexuals and there is no greater horror than going through every day of your life feeling as if you were born into the wrong body, where your outsides don't match what you feel inside. It's a terrible thing to have to go through, an arduous journey of self discovery and development that requires an incredible amount of bravery and determination.
To suggest that these people went through this trauma purely for the sake of financial gain is incredibly insensitive and short sighted.
You also failed to mention the case of Mark Rees, a female-to-male transsexual who lobbied to be recognized as male even though he would lose out on the financial benefits of being female.
It's not about money, it's about being able to reconcile your identity.
Discrimination against men? that has got to be the most ludicrous thing I've ever read.
michael
There are gay dudes who probably decide it's easier to get gay men as women. The Jerry Springer guests seem to fit this mold.
And there are guys who derive erotic pleasure from fantasizing about having female genitals...probably why there are so many "lesbian transsexuals" and crazy stuff like that.
You never seem to hear about the ones that just want to live in a traditional role, though I guess those people fly low, under radar.
[ 07-16-2002: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
<strong>
There are gay dudes who probably decide it's easier to get gay men as women.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I would think it would a lot harder <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
<strong>
I would think it would a lot harder
Okay, maybe. I'm not an expert on this subject.
That said I agree with Anders: equal treatment, for all sexes and no more reification of merely two sexual idenities... because clearly a man who mutilates himself and takes drugs, and who, usuall,y adopts all the cliched behaviors of "women" is not a woman because of that.... but, perhaps there is no essence to the sexes, and he/she would not need to qualify for one catagory or another but his/her own?!?!?
provisionally, if I had to try and define what differentiates a woman from a man, besides hormone levels and genitals, is her ability to give birth . . . as of yet no transexual can do this . . .but why the labels? The symbolic order is too rigid with its catagories.... let them flow. . . . soon even machines will give birth.
But I still say, the work is to become who you are.
Pensions are not all about cash. Retirement provides an opportunity for many people, who work at unrewarding jobs through necessity rather than choice to enjoy some freedom at the end of their life. That is not just a financial issue.
Whilst people think..
[quote]
Discrimination against men? that has got to be the most ludicrous thing I've ever read[ QUOTE]
then
[QUOTE]its time for a vokal movement on behalf of equal treatment AND individual freedom for both sexes <hr></blockquote>
will never be effective.
If you think that men are not discriminated against I suggest you take a look at family courts in the UK.
[quote]To suggest that these people went through this trauma purely for the sake of financial gain is incredibly insensitive and short sighted <hr></blockquote>
Yes it is. You are the only person who has suggested this, I never addressed the motivation of the individual in this case. I merely question the role of the state and the lack of representation of male issues in the media.
You should address the question. If men and women are equal, why are men forced to work until 65 to receive a pension when women can do so at 60?
That isdiscrimination against men. Find as many examples as you like of other forms of discrimination it doesn't matter. One case does not negate the other. All discrimination should be redressed.
Anti-transexuality is a form of xenophobia...a fear based emotion.
[QB]Zarathustra, the most unlikely cause for males to undergo a sex change would be for financial benefit, considering that the remuneration for females lags behind males for many occupations, sometimes by quite a large margin. Could you name me a profession where females get paid more than their male colleagues? Surrogate motherhood doesn't qualify!
Strippers?
SJODid you read what I posted?
[quote] I am not anti-transexual. I am glad that an injustice practiced against this person looks as if it will be rectified. <hr></blockquote>
or..
[quote] One case does not negate the other. All discrimination should be redressed. <hr></blockquote>
My issue isn't with the transexual person in this case (or any other)..again it merely highlights an injustice that I thought was ignored, Namely: Men & women should be allowed to retire at the same age.
SJO - I'm surprised that you (a) wouldn't agree with that & (b) only responded to the trigger 'transexual' and not the issue.
From the responses here the situation is worse than I had thought. I believed there was apathy towards mens rights, whereas people seem unable to acknowledge this as a problem.
<strong>
My issue isn't with the transexual person in this case (or any other)..again it merely highlights an injustice that I thought was ignored, Namely: Men & women should be allowed to retire at the same age.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Maybe I'm wrong, but if your main issue is indeed with discrimination of men vs women in UK, then the whole transexual thing seems pretty irrelevent. It just seems that the transexual would just be trading one form of discrimination for another (as if they aren't being discriminated against enough just for being a transexual).
[ 07-18-2002: Message edited by: markjo ]</p>
[QB] Could you name me a profession where females get paid more than their male colleagues? Surrogate motherhood doesn't qualify!
/QB]<hr></blockquote>
Prostitute? Exotic dancer? Masseuse?
It would be difficult to compare the pay scale of male prostitutes, exotic dancers/strippers and masseurs in comparison with their females counterparts due to a lack of reliable statistics! Re. prostitution, it's the (male) pimps who take the lion's share of the earnings.
<a href="http://www.netspace.net.au/~richardstringer/zarathra.html"; target="_blank">http://www.netspace.net.au/~richardstringer/zarathra.html</a>;
<strong>
Okay, maybe. I'm not an expert on this subject.
obviously