Children on trial as adults: Your stance?
Any more, it seems like children WELL under the age of 18 are constantly being tried as adults in murders and violent crimes (at least here in the U.S.).
I find this disturbing. Now, I realize that numerical age is somewhat relative in comparison to physical and psychological development, but to me, anyone under 17 should not even be considered for trial as an adult.
Call me crazy, but children do not deserve the same treatment in trial, and potential subsequent punishment that adults do. It makes NO sense to me to give a 16 year-old life in prison (without parole). When you do that, you take away any possibility of turning their life -- which they really have barely started -- around for the good.
Realize, that my view of prison is really two-fold. Yes, criminals should be punished for what they've done. At the same time, I feel like a HIGHLY concerted effort must be initiated to reform the criminals and return them to society as productive individuals whenever possible. Obviously, this would not apply to serial killers and rapists, and highly violent criminals. They truly need to be removed from society. When you apply all this to children, VERY rarely would you see crimes by sub-18-year-olds that would warrant punishments similar to those of adults.
So the questions for you all: What is your opinion on this subject? What is the general stance on this in non-U.S. countries, and do your countries try children as adults on a regular basis?
I find this disturbing. Now, I realize that numerical age is somewhat relative in comparison to physical and psychological development, but to me, anyone under 17 should not even be considered for trial as an adult.
Call me crazy, but children do not deserve the same treatment in trial, and potential subsequent punishment that adults do. It makes NO sense to me to give a 16 year-old life in prison (without parole). When you do that, you take away any possibility of turning their life -- which they really have barely started -- around for the good.
Realize, that my view of prison is really two-fold. Yes, criminals should be punished for what they've done. At the same time, I feel like a HIGHLY concerted effort must be initiated to reform the criminals and return them to society as productive individuals whenever possible. Obviously, this would not apply to serial killers and rapists, and highly violent criminals. They truly need to be removed from society. When you apply all this to children, VERY rarely would you see crimes by sub-18-year-olds that would warrant punishments similar to those of adults.
So the questions for you all: What is your opinion on this subject? What is the general stance on this in non-U.S. countries, and do your countries try children as adults on a regular basis?
Comments
yeah, then they'll be normal.
dunno, seems like there's a mindset of "it's easier to drop them into prison then try to fix them"
i would be interested to see a study on what it costs society to really try and reform someone vs. the costs down the line of crime, prison, etc.
i would guess it's actually cheaper to work extremely hard to reform people the first time around rather than turning them from mixed up kids into professional bad asses.
This is the situation society faces no matter the age of a person.
Fellowship
[ 03-12-2003: Message edited by: FellowshipChurch iBook ]</p>
<strong>CosmoNut I think the answer to your question is a difficult one to answer. What I do believe and this is just my opinion is that God can transform people. It is sometimes something that requires the will of each individual. What I am saying is that if a young person does something awful I do believe it does take the active choice of that young person to be willing to change. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't doubt that a criminal has to be willing to be reformed. But I see an inherent problem when a 14-year-old takes a gun into a school, kills a dozen students, and gets put in jail for life. I have a hard time believing that the 14-year-old REALLY understood how severe the consequences and reprecussions of those actions are. In their minds, they were being picked on. They were outcasts. Because they saw no other alternative, they thought it was appropriate to take a gun to school and start firing.
To me, this does not justify being locked away for life and ditching the key. That 14-year-old needs major therapy, but not a life sentence. I'll admit it: I was stupid when I was 14. Honestly, most adolescents are fairly ignorant to the realities of life. I know this because I work with them through church activities. At 23, I am MUCH wiser than I was 9 years ago. I KNOW now how serious violent crime or murder is. I'm not so sure I did back then.
Fellowship, I don't doubt the power of God in accomplishing a rebirth or reformation in a person. The thing is, the justice system is blind -- especially to religion. Law enforcers need to see that these kids need another chance, even if those people responsible for punishing the kids don't believe in a divine reformation.
To me, it's a sick problem. Trying a 12 year old as an adult in Florida? Whoever came up with that idea should be put in jail. Even a 16 year old isn't smart enough to deal with a lawyer and court. It's impossible for someone that age to have a fair trial simply because they can't truly comprehend what the hell is going on.
<strong>
The crime itself is well within a teenagers understanding as one of societies biggest wrongs and an excessively bad thing. </strong><hr></blockquote>
You and I know that, but I'm pretty sure a 14 year-old (as much as they know that it's "wrong") doesn't realize how serious of a crime it is, and how serious the repercussions can be. Even if they do, punishing them as though they are adults is ludicrous.
By no means am I suggesting that murder isn't serious, or that a child get a "get out of jail free card" because of their age. What I'm saying is that taking an adolescent (who is in the most difficult and confusing time of their growth) and saying "You will spend the rest of your life in jail for what you did," is unreasonable. Hell, they don't even know what life's about, and yet theirs is already ruined.
The idea is as absurd as trying any adult criminal with the mental capacity of a pre-teen child, as a child. (There are thousands of people like that out there).
What if a "child tried as an adult" is acquitted? Could this (say 13 year old), now classified as adult under the law, now be allowed to drink in a bar, attend an R-rated movie, get married, join the military etc? Could someone having sex with this 13 year old get away with it because he/she was now an adult, in the eyes of the law?
Or, is this person suddenly classified as a minor, arbitrarily, in a specific case, to satisfy some vengeful desires of an enraged community or district attorney, so a more severe sentence can be applied?
Whatever the case, it is inconsistent on legal and moral grounds. My own personal thoughts? Trying children as adults is sick. It's yet another sympton of a society under seige.
[ 03-13-2003: Message edited by: Samantha Joanne Ollendale ]</p>
[ 03-13-2003: Message edited by: Samantha Joanne Ollendale ]</p>
Maybe if society didn't excuse the "poor little darlings" becuase of their age (as they are obviously too young to be responsible and anyway its all the parents' fault) then maybe I wouldn't have had to move becuase of the violence and harrassment I and my family suffered from teenage gangs because of the colour of my skin. when confronted they would just scream into my face :
" you can't do nothing. "
when asked to leave before I called the police they'd yell:
" And what are they gonna do?"
<strong>At the very least a person who can't even vote shouldn't be tried as an adult.
To me, it's a sick problem. Trying a 12 year old as an adult in Florida? Whoever came up with that idea should be put in jail. Even a 16 year old isn't smart enough to deal with a lawyer and court. It's impossible for someone that age to have a fair trial simply because they can't truly comprehend what the hell is going on.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yet these same "children" can plan things like gangland style murders and drive-by's, rapes, all day ditch parties complete with drugs and drinks. They can paint an elaborate design with multiple colors and cans of spray paint and fully understand the dress, and lingo associated with the lifestyles they choose to lead.
But somehow they can't understand the seriousness of things like murder and rape.
The question you ask is completely off the topic. What you are asking is are they competent and sophisticated enough to handle their cases and lawyers in these matters. They might give into some bluster and not try to plea bargain or something of that nature. That has nothing to do with understanding that murder and rape are wrong.
Nick
<strong>
The definition of a child is quite subjective and doesn't fit a single matutrity date for everyone. One size doesn't fit all.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's a hell of a lot closer than the definition of a crime.
<strong> It's yet another sympton of a society under seige.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
While I agree with the sentiment, it's not a symptom of society under seige so much as an easy political expedient. It's a way to look "tough" on crime while not doing anything that requires effort or especially money in order to actually fight crime. This is even better than capital punishment (as regards money.)
Ultimately, will crime decrease if we try juveniles as adults? No. Everything we know about crime bears this out. So we ask why? And as always the answer is we do what appears to be effective in the semi intelligent mass analysis to which voters will subject it.
<strong>
But somehow they can't understand the seriousness of things like murder and rape. </strong><hr></blockquote>
No, I don't think a 12 year old can.
The brain is still forming until you're about 18 years old. Between around 11 and 18, there are a number of chemical reactions that are occuring that create those 'teenage agnst' years. Those moody kids? That's biological.
So, to hold a kid responsible when his brain is under the influence of a natural biological process seems extraordinary. Cruel and unusual I'd say.
instead of jail time, you rehabillitate them. serisously, who here thinks a kid sent to an adult prison is going to come out of that and be at all normal or socialized? they're going to be hardcore ****ed up, plain and simple. you'll take a kid that most likely had a terrible home life, terrorize and sexually abuse them for at least a decade, then release them back into society? what a joke. that kid is going to be so messed up they'll never make it in life.
it's basiclly a life sentence in prison for the kid, as that's where they're going to go right back to.
as for the victims? today's victim has already suffered. have your way and try these kids as adults and you're setting the stage for tomorrow's victims.
What's so strange about the debate is that, historically, the juvenile justice system was much less fair than the adult criminal justice system. Juveniles weren't thought of as having the same constitutional rights as adults, and so they were tried and sentenced without counsel, they weren't mirandized, etc. Juveniles have been punished much worse for minor crimes than they ever would have been if they had been tried as an adult for the same offense.
But there are two key differences: 1. They must be taken out of the juvenile system when they become adults (18 or 21), and 2. they can't get the death penalty. So it's usually only the very serious crimes by the almost-adults where prosecutors want to try them as an adult.
About rehabilitation: I personally believe that juveniles who commit crimes are LESS easy to rehabilitate. It's an indication that they're either genetically or environmentally fukked up and that they'll continue to commit crimes into adulthood. Even the DSM doesn't call it antisocial personality disorder until they're 18 - it's called "conduct disorder." Either way, repeat juvenile offenses suggest a budding psychopath to me.
Another thing: I've seen some research on the appreciation of legal rights, and the picture is pretty bad for under-18, but it's actually not that much better for adults. I think I saw that a majority of adults believe it is perjury to not admit your crimes to a judge.
<strong>
You and I know that, but I'm pretty sure a 14 year-old (as much as they know that it's "wrong") doesn't realize how serious of a crime it is, and how serious the repercussions can be. Even if they do, punishing them as though they are adults is ludicrous.
By no means am I suggesting that murder isn't serious, or that a child get a "get out of jail free card" because of their age. What I'm saying is that taking an adolescent (who is in the most difficult and confusing time of their growth) and saying "You will spend the rest of your life in jail for what you did," is unreasonable. Hell, they don't even know what life's about, and yet theirs is already ruined.</strong><hr></blockquote>
They fully realize at the age of 14 that death is not a temporary state and in fact is a permanent thing.
If you think their life is ruined, just imagine the life of the person they raped or killed.
I would argue almost the opposite of what you say. In a day and age where there is no physical punishment of any sort and the only real consequence is "time outs" or various sorts, the child gets an unrealistic picture of how life really works for adults.
If anything something more should be happening when these kids commit their often multiple acts of violence as children. Instead they get something like suspension for what would be assault as an adult.
If they can comprehend the actions associated with getting a gun and shooting someone, they can understand the effect those actions will cause. The intelligence doesn't end the second the gun is put in their hand.
Nick
<strong>
No, I don't think a 12 year old can.
The brain is still forming until you're about 18 years old. Between around 11 and 18, there are a number of chemical reactions that are occuring that create those 'teenage agnst' years. Those moody kids? That's biological.
So, to hold a kid responsible when his brain is under the influence of a natural biological process seems extraordinary. Cruel and unusual I'd say.</strong><hr></blockquote>
chemical reactions that affect behaviour naturally occur during stress, grief, depression etc. That's also biological. so what?
We have created a generation of thugs who believe - no strike that - who KNOW that they can do practically anything with virtual impunity.
<strong>
No, I don't think a 12 year old can.
The brain is still forming until you're about 18 years old. Between around 11 and 18, there are a number of chemical reactions that are occuring that create those 'teenage agnst' years. Those moody kids? That's biological.
So, to hold a kid responsible when his brain is under the influence of a natural biological process seems extraordinary. Cruel and unusual I'd say.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually teenange angst and things of that nature are relatively recent (last 50 years) ideas. I'm sure if you go to countries where children of this same age have to work for the family to simply survive you will not see this same type of angst.
As for your statements, think about the absurdity of your conclusions. Almost everyone goes through these natural stages and manages not to kill and rape.
I suppose you don't believe in date rape or sexual harassment right? I mean if a woman and I have gotten naked and are lying together kissing, then biologically I have been prepared myself for certain acts. I couldn't resist the pheromones that made me find her attractive in the first place. We were 90% of the way there and biologically I just couldn't stop myself from that last 10% right?
I guess no doesn't mean no as long as you can find a biological rational for it.
Nick
<strong>I mean if a woman and I have gotten naked and are lying together kissing, then biologically I have been prepared myself for certain acts. I couldn't resist the pheromones that made me find her attractive in the first place. We were 90% of the way there and biologically I just couldn't stop myself from that last 10% right?
I guess no doesn't mean no as long as you can find a biological rational for it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Funny you bring that up. I have known MANY of my Christian friends who swore that they would wait to have sex until they got married. They dated around, started kissing, and as things got hotter and heavier, they actually went through with it. They just couldn't stop.
Now, to get the thread back on topic. Let me clarify my view on trying children as adults. Okay, I'll concede that many children who commit violent crimes are aware of the seriousness of what they're doing. Many don't, however. Also, I don't in any way, discount the anguish that the victims and their families feel after a murder, rape, or violent crime. Yes, justice must be served.
But criminals are people, too. When you take a child who has grown up in a violent household, who was sexually abused, and struggled every day up to now and you give them life in prison for committing murder, what are you doing to him? You are saying to him, "Sorry your childhood sucked. Now you killed someone and you have to spend your life behind bars. Good luck in turning your life around."
Cruel.
[ 03-13-2003: Message edited by: CosmoNut ]</p>