Between the gamecube, xbox, and PS2, the market for game consoles is already pretty crowded. My PS2 never crashes (well, once it did, but i had kicked it by accident) and has a ton of great games for it, will play almost all PS1 games and is a DVD player ... I'm not really sure how much more value Apple could add to such a device.
Also, be affordable? C'mon, have you seen the prices for those high end power macs ... and that 23inch cinema display!
Apple needs significant developer backing and major money if it was ever to launch something as big as a game console.
Microsoft launched the XBox, but they take a hit on the hardware, because they want to eventually take over the market. It cost them BILLIONS to develop and market the machine. What they got was an okay system with okay games. Halo is great, but that's the only game I really play on the XBox, and the thing is as buggy as anything. It keeps telling me that my discs are damaged, just because the DVD adapter is in one of the ports.
Any way, if Apple was to get into this market, what would they do? They don't make games, so there would be no first party titles, and they don't have developer support. Sure, it would be cool to have an Apple device, but it's not going to happen.
I've never had a console game crash on me (going back to the Atari 2600), but then again, I don't own an xbox either.
Console market is tough to break in and stay in. Having the best hardware doesn't always equate success. Sega had to bow out after years of being a market leader, and their Dreamcast was, IMO, a great machine and better in a number of ways than the PS2. (OK, putting on flame retardant suit now...) Time will tell if MS will be around for the long haul.
I think an Apple game console would be too much of a financial gamble for them, and games have never been Apple's (talking about he company here, not the platform) strength.
I dunno. I kinda thought that the cube would have made a good game's console...
Erm. If it'd lost the skirt and adopted more 'fruit gum imac' styling with its cube shape.
A headless imac and you've got 'The Dome'. An interesting games console design?
Games and apple.
Hmmm. Given the long standing of Bungie, I'd always hoped that Apple would buy them.
I think if you buy a few key developers then you can 'buy' support and respect that Apple has previously lacked.
Their move into high end graphic/multimedia...shows that with the will they've got a good exec team that can deliver...
If they buy Maya...then a look at the games market may be forthcoming.
But you can argue that developer wise the Mac in 3D, multimedia and games...we've never had it so good! So do apple need to buy 'credentials'?
With what appears to shrewd policy of a move to being a 'software' company...then maybe we will see more aquisitions.
Ahh, it seems like only yesterday petitions were a gunning for a version of Maya...and now...
Still, you could argue that with aggressive downward pricing of the imac over the next year or so...then apple probably have the best 'games' console out there.
I still get off on playing the Marathon games. I didn't think Quake III was any advance...
Been there, done that. It was called the Pippin. Groovy little machine that flopped BIG TIME.
[quote] If they buy Maya...then a look at the games market may be forthcoming. <hr></blockquote>
I honestly don't see any correlation between the professional 3D market and the gaming market. Could you explain this statement a little better please?
"I honestly don't see any correlation between the professional 3D market and the gaming market. Could you explain this statement a little better please?"
Apple will never make a game console. It's simply not part of their focus. Apple's support for gaming is secondary to their focus on multimedia and desktop publishing.
If you want to play games, buy a Wintel or a game console. Apple doesn't even compete in this arena.
What is with all the dumb-ass ideas today? Is it because it's april 1 or something?
Huh, huh, he he, do u thunk Apple will make a Mac toaster? Like the cube but it does 8 slices of toast?
I just know that a Mac toaster would have awesome industrial design and Apple's attention to detail. It would be the easiest toaster to operate, and it would make the best toast...only it would be really slow, like it would take 1/2 an hour to toast a slice of bread, 'cause the heating elements would be behind the competition. Witness the "heat-gap" in the toaster market!
[quote] gaming companies like Blizzard and stuff have pro 3d departments?
or maybe...many employees to companies that make 3d games came from big pro houses?
<hr></blockquote>
Do they? Isn't Blizzard a porting house? Why would they have a pro 3D department when all they do is port another company's work?
There are a lot of fields that use pro 3D software for visualization (think engineering & science). The simple fact that Apple may be interested in Maya doesn't mean they're interested in any of those other fields...
[quote] I don't know
uhhhh
<hr></blockquote>
Then why did you feel the need to comment?
[quote] some games have really good 3d? <hr></blockquote>
So what? Pro 3D hardware isn't the same as 3D game hardware... There are entirely different requirements for Pro 3D & gaming.
can't we start a 'most reoccouring thread idea' for future hardware?
surely this would be in the top five, along with predictions for apple PDAs, speculation on what the raycer purchase means for OS X and other chestnuts ....
mebbe we could start a new thread .. what's the most ill conceived concept to rear its ugly head in FW?
i'm only half-serious as I guess the rumour mill wouldn't be half as interesting to read if it wasn't made up of all sorts ... hehe
<strong> So what caused the Pippin to bomb? the answers are simple:
No major titles.
Apple. unlike Atari, 3DO, Sony, Sega and Nintendo. didn't have any kind of in-house(1st party) development team. as well. they lacked any Pippin-exclusive titles from big console houses like SquareSoft, Capcom, Konami and Namco or big desktop houses like Interplay, Maxis, Bungie, Infogrames and LucasArts.
No serious marketing.
Unlike the flashy TV and magazine ad campaigns preceding the PlayStation, N64 and X-Box introductions. Apple made no similar blitz. Apple didn't pump the saturday morning cartoon show ad slot. and when you opened up a copy of GamePro. you didn't see Pippin ads in it's pages. even worse. Apple didn't bring the Pippin to E3 at LA(Actually. Apple has NEVER attended an E3 event for any reason? ).
Not enough power.
The Pippin was equipped with a mere 66Mhz 603(_Not_ a 603e), 6 MBs of standard RAM(1 MB for VRAM). with up to 14 MB through a single module. and NO dedicated graphics or sound acceleration hardware or integrated DSPs(Ala Quadra 630). and no MPEG decoder(For VCDs. which actually beat out VHSs and DVDs in asia). a better machine to base it on would have been the Performa 6400/180(I may be a bit biased. as my previous Mac just happened to be a PowerMac 6500/250 ).
Lack of distribution.
When you went to Circuit City, Toys 'R' Us, BlockBuster or Sears. the very last thing you would see was a Pippin. even the Atari Jaguar titles managed to eat up 14 feet of shelf space at the Warehouse I went to when it was on the market.
The only explanation I can think of is that Apple just wasn't trying.</strong><hr></blockquote>
<strong>Now what would be needed for a Pippin(In spirit if not ill-fated name. maybe iMac SE or iCube) 2? I suppose that something novel would be needed to distinguish it from others in it's catagory.
The distinguishing feature of most consoles today is their graphics/sound hardware. getting a yet bigger GPU would be too easily one-up-able. so why not just skip it? the strong point of the GPU is it's incredible speed at certain types of math functions. the weak point of the GPU is the fact of that those particular math functions are the _only_ things it can do. period.
The CPU. while not quite as quick as the dedicated GPU at it's run-of-the-mill math. can be reprogrammed do amazing things with lesser used. and more complex styles of math.
For example. try doing voxels in a GPU. and try physical modeling simulation on audio hardware. as three G4s would cost nearly the same as a G4, a GPU and an audio chip. imagine how unique a game hardcoded in binary for a tri-G4 Mac would look, sound and feel. the sheer number of unusual techniques that could be used would totally steamroller every other game ever made.
Games are. of course. one of the defining parts of any console as a whole. Nintendo is known for using their legendary franchises. like Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Star Fox and Kirby . as well as superstar producer. Shigeru Miyamoto. to compensate for their lack of hardware. and quite effectively at that.
In order to one-up the others. Apple would have to round up a cadre of the finest game designers it could find. possibly buying one or more companies wholesale. to form an in-house game studio unrivaled by others. but. one rather unfortunately untried technique for finding superior programmers, artists, musicians and writers could prove Apple's saving grace. instead of drawing from the increasingly repetitive, unoriginal pool of self stated game developers. Apple could instead draw from the little seen. and radically different talent hidden so long in universities, science jobs and the depths of the art and literature worlds.
This. combined with the unprecedented flexability and power of the Pippin 2 would spawn a new. sophisticated world of "interactive media". instead of the current simple-minded button mashing B-movie dreck games being pumped out by the mainstream media. this would give children, women, men over 30 and (more intelligent ) teenage boys something fresh and new to play when tired of the usual titles.
Another easily visible characteristic of any console is it's controller. although the 2D gamepad has dominated since Nintendo's Entertainment System. it is clearly showing it's age. something new is needed. something like <a href="http://redwood.stomped.com/reviews/hardware/spaceorb/"; target="_blank">this</a>. a 3D controller. with six analog axes of control. the final blow would be to include a headset mic for speech recognition(Using good. multi-Altivec optomized algorithms). and heavily encourage it's use in Pippin 2 titles.
Extra features and perks are also a distinguishing feature of consoles. with many consoles now promising things like network connections and DVD decoding. some obvious perks to add to a Pippin 2 would be:
Optional hybrid HDTV/4DTV/DVB/C-Band/KU-Band/DBS/PAL/SECAM/NTSC television/AM/FM/XM radio tuner(Available as a PCI card on Wintel boxs right now for about $120 MSRP).
PVR functionality(Obviously free software. with a hard and/or DVD-Multi drive and TV tuner of course).
PVR functionality(Obviously free software. with a hard and/or DVD-Multi drive and TV tuner of course)
Nonlinear A/V Recording with optional DVD-Multi drive(Currently selling for about $250 MSRP).
Fax/data/voice modem. so that you can use it as an answering machine, telephone and telex unit. the inclusion of an updated QuickTime Videoconfrencing Kit would add videophone to it's resumé.
Splurge on 64-bit G5s instead of 32-bit G4s. thus allowing for 48, 50 or even 64-bit digitizers/synthesizers(Ala SGI). which would give the A/V I/O(Boy that's alot of acronyms!) of the Pippin 2 unprecedented quality and range.
Make the controllers wireless(Preferably with infra-red. so that users wouldn't be irradiated).
The last. and most important characteristic of any console launch is. of course. the marketing.
It goes without saying that Apple would have to be even more flashy. persistant and outragous than Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo were at launch. however. something more would be needed. one unique variety of set-top box. that has not been seen since the golden days of Atari. is that in which one gets their complete desktop OS. and without changing, dumbing down, simplifying or trimming it. just stick it directly into a set-top box. only market it as an "Information Appliance" anyway. my reasoning behind this is:
Just because someone doesn't have enough money for a full computer. does that mean that they are also too stupid to use one?
Due to this. massive numbers of people who had been holding off for a full Mac. but hadn't bought one because it was just too far out of their means. would proceed to buy them for this reason alone.
The single most important thing though. would be Apple committing themselves to nothing less than absolute. utter dominance over Sony, MS, Nintendo and whomever else was in the market by then. in other words. first place. or nothing.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Basically. I think Apple could make a substantial sum on a console if they played their cards right. we'll just have to wait and see then won't we?
<strong>Basically. I think Apple could make a substantial sum on a console if they played their cards right. we'll just have to wait and see then won't we?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry, but there's just not a polite way to put this -
Comments
Also, be affordable? C'mon, have you seen the prices for those high end power macs ... and that 23inch cinema display!
Microsoft launched the XBox, but they take a hit on the hardware, because they want to eventually take over the market. It cost them BILLIONS to develop and market the machine. What they got was an okay system with okay games. Halo is great, but that's the only game I really play on the XBox, and the thing is as buggy as anything. It keeps telling me that my discs are damaged, just because the DVD adapter is in one of the ports.
Any way, if Apple was to get into this market, what would they do? They don't make games, so there would be no first party titles, and they don't have developer support. Sure, it would be cool to have an Apple device, but it's not going to happen.
but just talking theoretically
Console market is tough to break in and stay in. Having the best hardware doesn't always equate success. Sega had to bow out after years of being a market leader, and their Dreamcast was, IMO, a great machine and better in a number of ways than the PS2. (OK, putting on flame retardant suit now...) Time will tell if MS will be around for the long haul.
I think an Apple game console would be too much of a financial gamble for them, and games have never been Apple's (talking about he company here, not the platform) strength.
I dunno. I kinda thought that the cube would have made a good game's console...
Erm. If it'd lost the skirt and adopted more 'fruit gum imac' styling with its cube shape.
A headless imac and you've got 'The Dome'. An interesting games console design?
Games and apple.
Hmmm. Given the long standing of Bungie, I'd always hoped that Apple would buy them.
I think if you buy a few key developers then you can 'buy' support and respect that Apple has previously lacked.
Their move into high end graphic/multimedia...shows that with the will they've got a good exec team that can deliver...
If they buy Maya...then a look at the games market may be forthcoming.
But you can argue that developer wise the Mac in 3D, multimedia and games...we've never had it so good! So do apple need to buy 'credentials'?
With what appears to shrewd policy of a move to being a 'software' company...then maybe we will see more aquisitions.
Ahh, it seems like only yesterday petitions were a gunning for a version of Maya...and now...
Still, you could argue that with aggressive downward pricing of the imac over the next year or so...then apple probably have the best 'games' console out there.
I still get off on playing the Marathon games. I didn't think Quake III was any advance...
Lemon Bon Bon. <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
It's called the iMac.
[quote] If they buy Maya...then a look at the games market may be forthcoming. <hr></blockquote>
I honestly don't see any correlation between the professional 3D market and the gaming market. Could you explain this statement a little better please?
<strong>Apple Gmae Console.... good idea? Bad idea?
i think it would be an awesome idea myslef... It would never crash and be affordable... not to mention look good...</strong><hr></blockquote>
here's an older thread
<a href="http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001304"; target="_blank">pippin</a>
You pullin' da leg, ey?
Lemon Bon Bon
No. What correlation is there between the pro 3D market and the gaming market?
<strong>Apple makes one already.
It's called the iMac.
Almost....if the iMac had BTO geforce 4ti than it could easily pass as a pretty damn good gaming machine
<strong>
No. What correlation is there between the pro 3D market and the gaming market?</strong><hr></blockquote>
gaming companies like Blizzard and stuff have pro 3d departments?
or maybe...many employees to companies that make 3d games came from big pro houses?
I don't know
uhhhh
some games have really good 3d?
If you want to play games, buy a Wintel or a game console. Apple doesn't even compete in this arena.
What is with all the dumb-ass ideas today? Is it because it's april 1 or something?
Huh, huh, he he, do u thunk Apple will make a Mac toaster? Like the cube but it does 8 slices of toast?
I just know that a Mac toaster would have awesome industrial design and Apple's attention to detail. It would be the easiest toaster to operate, and it would make the best toast...only it would be really slow, like it would take 1/2 an hour to toast a slice of bread, 'cause the heating elements would be behind the competition. Witness the "heat-gap" in the toaster market!
Duh..'\\
or maybe...many employees to companies that make 3d games came from big pro houses?
<hr></blockquote>
Do they? Isn't Blizzard a porting house? Why would they have a pro 3D department when all they do is port another company's work?
There are a lot of fields that use pro 3D software for visualization (think engineering & science). The simple fact that Apple may be interested in Maya doesn't mean they're interested in any of those other fields...
[quote] I don't know
uhhhh
<hr></blockquote>
Then why did you feel the need to comment?
[quote] some games have really good 3d? <hr></blockquote>
So what? Pro 3D hardware isn't the same as 3D game hardware... There are entirely different requirements for Pro 3D & gaming.
<strong>
Isn't Blizzard a porting house?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Nope. They made (among others), Starcraft, Diablo, Warcraft, etc...
Amorya
surely this would be in the top five, along with predictions for apple PDAs, speculation on what the raycer purchase means for OS X and other chestnuts ....
mebbe we could start a new thread .. what's the most ill conceived concept to rear its ugly head in FW?
i'm only half-serious
I stand corrected.
jobes: if you try to cut down on topics like this, AI would shrivel up and blow away.
<strong>here's an older thread
<a href="http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001304"; target="_blank">pippin</a></strong><hr></blockquote>
I'll just post this for those whom are too lazy to click through.
[quote]Originally posted by Gamblor:
<strong>Been there, done that. It was called the Pippin. Groovy little machine that flopped BIG TIME.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Here's a quote taken out of <a href="http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001304"; target="_blank">an earlier thread</a>:
[quote]Originally posted by me:
<strong> So what caused the Pippin to bomb? the answers are simple:
- No major titles.
- No serious marketing.
).
- Not enough power.
).
- Lack of distribution.
The only explanation I can think of is that Apple just wasn't trying.</strong><hr></blockquote>Apple. unlike Atari, 3DO, Sony, Sega and Nintendo. didn't have any kind of in-house(1st party) development team. as well. they lacked any Pippin-exclusive titles from big console houses like SquareSoft, Capcom, Konami and Namco or big desktop houses like Interplay, Maxis, Bungie, Infogrames and LucasArts.
Unlike the flashy TV and magazine ad campaigns preceding the PlayStation, N64 and X-Box introductions. Apple made no similar blitz. Apple didn't pump the saturday morning cartoon show ad slot. and when you opened up a copy of GamePro. you didn't see Pippin ads in it's pages. even worse. Apple didn't bring the Pippin to E3 at LA(Actually. Apple has NEVER attended an E3 event for any reason?
The Pippin was equipped with a mere 66Mhz 603(_Not_ a 603e), 6 MBs of standard RAM(1 MB for VRAM). with up to 14 MB through a single module. and NO dedicated graphics or sound acceleration hardware or integrated DSPs(Ala Quadra 630). and no MPEG decoder(For VCDs. which actually beat out VHSs and DVDs in asia). a better machine to base it on would have been the Performa 6400/180(I may be a bit biased. as my previous Mac just happened to be a PowerMac 6500/250
When you went to Circuit City, Toys 'R' Us, BlockBuster or Sears. the very last thing you would see was a Pippin. even the Atari Jaguar titles managed to eat up 14 feet of shelf space at the Warehouse I went to when it was on the market.
Here's another quote taken out of <a href="http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001304"; target="_blank">this thread</a>:
[quote]Originally posted by me:
<strong>Now what would be needed for a Pippin(In spirit if not ill-fated name. maybe iMac SE or iCube) 2? I suppose that something novel would be needed to distinguish it from others in it's catagory.
The distinguishing feature of most consoles today is their graphics/sound hardware. getting a yet bigger GPU would be too easily one-up-able. so why not just skip it? the strong point of the GPU is it's incredible speed at certain types of math functions. the weak point of the GPU is the fact of that those particular math functions are the _only_ things it can do. period.
The CPU. while not quite as quick as the dedicated GPU at it's run-of-the-mill math. can be reprogrammed do amazing things with lesser used. and more complex styles of math.
For example. try doing voxels in a GPU. and try physical modeling simulation on audio hardware. as three G4s would cost nearly the same as a G4, a GPU and an audio chip. imagine how unique a game hardcoded in binary for a tri-G4 Mac would look, sound and feel. the sheer number of unusual techniques that could be used would totally steamroller every other game ever made.
Games are. of course. one of the defining parts of any console as a whole. Nintendo is known for using their legendary franchises. like Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Star Fox and Kirby . as well as superstar producer. Shigeru Miyamoto. to compensate for their lack of hardware. and quite effectively at that.
In order to one-up the others. Apple would have to round up a cadre of the finest game designers it could find. possibly buying one or more companies wholesale. to form an in-house game studio unrivaled by others. but. one rather unfortunately untried technique for finding superior programmers, artists, musicians and writers could prove Apple's saving grace. instead of drawing from the increasingly repetitive, unoriginal pool of self stated game developers. Apple could instead draw from the little seen. and radically different talent hidden so long in universities, science jobs and the depths of the art and literature worlds.
This. combined with the unprecedented flexability and power of the Pippin 2 would spawn a new. sophisticated world of "interactive media". instead of the current simple-minded button mashing B-movie dreck games being pumped out by the mainstream media. this would give children, women, men over 30 and (more intelligent
Another easily visible characteristic of any console is it's controller. although the 2D gamepad has dominated since Nintendo's Entertainment System. it is clearly showing it's age. something new is needed. something like <a href="http://redwood.stomped.com/reviews/hardware/spaceorb/"; target="_blank">this</a>. a 3D controller. with six analog axes of control. the final blow would be to include a headset mic for speech recognition(Using good. multi-Altivec optomized algorithms). and heavily encourage it's use in Pippin 2 titles.
Extra features and perks are also a distinguishing feature of consoles. with many consoles now promising things like network connections and DVD decoding. some obvious perks to add to a Pippin 2 would be:
- Optional hybrid HDTV/4DTV/DVB/C-Band/KU-Band/DBS/PAL/SECAM/NTSC television/AM/FM/XM radio tuner(Available as a PCI card on Wintel boxs right now for about $120 MSRP).
- PVR functionality(Obviously free software. with a hard and/or DVD-Multi drive and TV tuner of course).
- PVR functionality(Obviously free software. with a hard and/or DVD-Multi drive and TV tuner of course)
- Nonlinear A/V Recording with optional DVD-Multi drive(Currently selling for about $250 MSRP).
- Fax/data/voice modem. so that you can use it as an answering machine, telephone and telex unit. the inclusion of an updated QuickTime Videoconfrencing Kit would add videophone to it's resumé.
- Splurge on 64-bit G5s instead of 32-bit G4s. thus allowing for 48, 50 or even 64-bit digitizers/synthesizers(Ala SGI). which would give the A/V I/O(Boy that's alot of acronyms!) of the Pippin 2 unprecedented quality and range.
- Make the controllers wireless(Preferably with infra-red. so that users wouldn't be irradiated).
The last. and most important characteristic of any console launch is. of course. the marketing.It goes without saying that Apple would have to be even more flashy. persistant and outragous than Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo were at launch. however. something more would be needed. one unique variety of set-top box. that has not been seen since the golden days of Atari. is that in which one gets their complete desktop OS. and without changing, dumbing down, simplifying or trimming it. just stick it directly into a set-top box. only market it as an "Information Appliance" anyway. my reasoning behind this is:
Just because someone doesn't have enough money for a full computer. does that mean that they are also too stupid to use one?
Due to this. massive numbers of people who had been holding off for a full Mac. but hadn't bought one because it was just too far out of their means. would proceed to buy them for this reason alone.
The single most important thing though. would be Apple committing themselves to nothing less than absolute. utter dominance over Sony, MS, Nintendo and whomever else was in the market by then. in other words. first place. or nothing.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Basically. I think Apple could make a substantial sum on a console if they played their cards right. we'll just have to wait and see then won't we?
Eric,
[ 04-09-2002: Message edited by: Eric D.V.H ]</p>
<strong>Basically. I think Apple could make a substantial sum on a console if they played their cards right. we'll just have to wait and see then won't we?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry, but there's just not a polite way to put this -
Madness. Utter and complete madness.