Samsung accuses Apple trial experts of 'slavish adoration,' seeks to invalidate testimony

Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
Court filings from the ongoing Apple v. Samsung patent dispute reveal that the South Korean company is seeking to exclude testimony from certain trial experts on claims that the witnesses are part of the 'cult-like' following sometimes associated with the iPad maker.

In attempts to further streamline an upcoming California trial, both Samsung and Apple filed motions last Thursday to dismiss claims, strike theories and exclude testimony of expert witnesses hired by the opposing party, reports FOSS Patents' Florian Mueller.

The introductory paragraph of one Samsung filing smacks of the tone used by the Galaxy maker in its TV ads that portray Apple users as so-called "fanboys."

From the motion:
"Apple's damages expert, Terry L. Musika, writes in his report that 'Apple has built a considerable and at times a cult-like following to all things Apple.' That cult-like following apparently includes several experts who are appearing on Apple's behalf in this case, and may explain why they have cast aside established scientific methods and governing legal principles in favor of slavish adoration of their client and platitudes about its alleged magical and revolutionary products, issues that are of no relevance to the claims and defenses at issue."
Interestingly, the brief goes on to name Musika as one of the eight witnesses whose opinions and testimony should be excluded by the court.

Mueller notes that Samsung was especially critical of Henry Urbach's testimony regarding the "alleged cultural significance" of Apple products. The motion asserts that Urbach "unquestionably is a loyal devotee of Apple, its designers, its products, and its retail stores," noting that prior to being hired by Apple as an expert witness, he wrote an essay on the design of the company's retail stores titled Gardens of Earthly Delights that describes them "as '[q]uasi-religious in almost every respect, . . . chapels for the Information Age.'"

Urbach's expertise was also questioned, with Samsung saying that he "lacks the qualifications to serve as an expert on Apple?s 'design excellence' or its public appreciation" and bases testimony "solely on his say so, rather than any objectively verifiable data." The qualifying remarks to those objections were redacted from the document.



For its part, Apple seeks to exclude the opinions of eight Samsung experts, citing position and qualifications as reasons for rejection. The company also moved to strike theories that are inconsistent with Samsung's initial invalidity and infringement disputes as well as those that were not presented during discovery.

Mueller believes that Apple's motion for summary judgment is more focused than Samsung's opposing filing, noting that Apple argues against three Samsung patents, saying it doesn't infringe on one while seeking to invalidate two others. Samsung, on the other hand, presented a "laundry list" of items for the summary judgment stage:
  • Invalidate Apple's trade dresses because they are allegedly functional. Samsung says Apple's trade dress dilution claim, which involves the iPhone and iPad, should be tossed because it allegedly cannot prove that those trade dresses are famous.

  • Invalidate all six asserted design patents; five for obviousness over prior art, one due to the "on-sale bar" as the iPhone was on sale before a related design patent was applied for.

  • The tossing of all four Apple utility patents because the asserted claims of three are invalid and the asserted claim of another patent is not infringed.

  • Dismissal of Apple's FRAND-related antitrust claims on summary judgment because Apple allegedly cannot prove any damages because no products have been excluded from the market due to Samsung's standard-essential patents.
Both companies are expected to file their opposition briefs soon.

The CEOs of both companies met today in California as part of court-sanctioned two-day settlement discussion, though the talks are not expected to be particularly fruitful.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 35
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,399member


    Huh. Guess I won't ever bother defending these guys against bias ever again. 

  • Reply 2 of 35
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Based on that quoted paragraph Samsung seems to be embellishing quite a bit with terms like "magical" which I don't the experts actually used.
  • Reply 3 of 35
    sflocalsflocal Posts: 4,702member


    So not only does Samesung insult Apple's customers as fanboys, but now the court experts too.


     


    Haters gonna hate.

  • Reply 4 of 35
    poochpooch Posts: 768member
    a cult? count me in!
    well, sort of.

    i've been using apple products since you were knee-high to a grasshopper, i'm a shareholder, and i do think they're the best world's largest company, but i sure as hell ain't gonna shave my head, tithe to them, or even chant anything for that matter.

    i will continue to buy their exceptional products, however, when i think that they are of value to me.

    so take that, samsung.
  • Reply 5 of 35
    nkingmannkingman Posts: 44member


    Don't worry Samsung, only humans are permitted to testify, sheeps and other animals are not allowed in the court.

  • Reply 6 of 35
    ljocampoljocampo Posts: 657member



    Quote:


    "Apple's damages expert, Terry L. Musika, writes in his report that 'Apple has built a considerable and at times a cult-like following to all things Apple.' That cult-like following apparently includes several experts who are appearing on Apple's behalf in this case, and may explain why they have cast aside established scientific methods and governing legal principles in favor of slavish adoration of their client and platitudes about its alleged magical and revolutionary products, issues that are of no relevance to the claims and defenses at issue."



     


     


    Tim had to meet today to show that his penis is actually larger and curves to the right than Sammy's CEO. The above quote by Samsung's attorneys does sound rather childish and belongs more in school yard than a court room. Who else better to be an expert on Apple than a fanboy? Should Apple find an expert into Android?

  • Reply 7 of 35
    msimpsonmsimpson Posts: 452member


    Well at least they did not compare anyone to the Nazis.  Yet.


     


    Next up, label them something "Big" so it makes them REALLY evil, like Big Tobacco or Big Oil.  


     


    "Big Apple"


     


    whoops, that's already taken.


     


    I notice that Samsung has a nice team of American lawyers.  I guess Apple can add all the lawyers for companies suing them to the list of jobs they have created in America. 


     


    I hope Apple files all of its legal briefs in electronic format only.   Wouldn't want to upset Greenpeace.


     


    Slavish adoration?   I don't adore any slavs.

  • Reply 8 of 35
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,215member


    So let me see if I have this straight. 


     


    Apple wants to have Samsung's experts removed on the grounds that they can't prove they have the education and/or experience to qualify as experts. Samsung wants Apple's removed on the grounds that, while yes they are experts, they like Apple's stuff too much and might be biased towards the company that hired them to testify on the company's behalf. 


     


    I'll give them on the issue of perhaps the trade dress is a tad obvious, if taken piece meal. But they are also trying to get the whole FRAND issue struck down on the grounds that it doesn't matter if Samsung did something illegal or not, Apple still made boatloads of sales so they shouldn't whine about damages. 


     


    classy, real classy

  • Reply 9 of 35
    ufwaufwa Posts: 64member


    Does Mueller have the unredacted version? The link goes to one where a lot of it is redacted. A couple of the pages nearly everything is redacted other than 1 or 2 lines. Some of the redacted parts leads to funny unredacted stuff. You'd get redacted then followed by . "That is absurd"


     


    Hardly anything can be made from it.  Its Name of expert, what they said which is redacted followed by citation of case law as to why it should and occasionally some more redacted stuff.

  • Reply 10 of 35
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    pooch wrote: »
    a cult? count me in! well, sort of. i've been using apple products since you were knee-high to a grasshopper, i'm a shareholder, and i do think they're the best world's largest company, but i sure as hell ain't gonna shave my head, tithe to them, or even chant anything for that matter. i will continue to buy their exceptional products, however, when i think that they are of value to me. so take that, samsung.

    If I think their products aren't as good as another company I'll buy those. If I think their stock won't be performing well in the future I won't invest. They have to remain excellent or they will lose people like they did in the 90s.
  • Reply 11 of 35
    Haaaaahaaahhaahhha. Unbelievable. You're a liar Samsung CEO Gee-sung Choi.

    You authorized your engineers to steal Apple's IP and market a product so similar to Apple's "magical and revolutionary" products so that non-savvy tech customers could be tricked into buying an inferior Samsung knockoff.

    You are a liar Gee-sung Choi, and you have brought much shame and loss of face upon yourself, your employees and your company. Shame on you Gee-sung Choi. Shame on you.
  • Reply 12 of 35
    rot'napplerot'napple Posts: 1,839member


    Who indeed is the cult follower with the slavish adoration?  Hmm Samsung?  Is it the company that has lines around the block after almost every production introduction or is it the company that creates TV commercials bashing said 'waiting lines' wishing they had that problem?  Is it the company that produced the new smartphone format and eco system and expanded that and created an entirely new tablet category, or is it the company that slavishly copied form, styles, color scheme, home buttons, made their products so similar that even in court their own lawyers couldn't distinguish the two products apart at a distance of ten feet?  Hmm Samsung?  Who indeed has the cult like following due to slavish adoration?  You're kind of quiet there Samsung!


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  • Reply 13 of 35
    MacProMacPro Posts: 18,372member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by King of Beige View Post



    Haaaaahaaahhaahhha. Unbelievable. You're a liar Samsung CEO Gee-sung Choi.

    You authorized your engineers to steal Apple's IP and market a product so similar to Apple's "magical and revolutionary" products so that non-savvy tech customers could be tricked into buying an inferior Samsung knockoff.

    You are a liar Gee-sung Choi, and you have brought much shame and loss of face upon yourself, your employees and your company. Shame on you Gee-sung Choi. Shame on you.


    Falling on his sword seems the right move for Gee-sung Choi now I'd say.  Or is that only for Japanese honorable losers?

  • Reply 14 of 35

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sflocal View Post


    So not only does Samesung insult Apple's customers as fanboys, but now the court experts too.


     


    Haters gonna hate.



    Samsung commercials have been insulting Apple fans for the past year or so... yet they court them as customers. I think Samsung would like such product loyalty and a feeling butthurt for not having it.

  • Reply 15 of 35
    quadra 610quadra 610 Posts: 6,744member


    Why would anyone take Samsung's opinions and protests seriously. 


     


    These are are the CRIMINALS Apple is dealing with:


     


    http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=13394166&highlight=samsung+criminal#post13394166

  • Reply 16 of 35
    tunetune Posts: 91member


    Isn't anyone going to say Samsung is slavishly using the word slavish?

     

  • Reply 17 of 35
    paxmanpaxman Posts: 4,614member

    Quote:

    Urbach's expertise was also questioned, with Samsung saying that he "lacks the qualifications to serve as an expert on Apple's 'design excellence' or its public appreciation" and bases testimony "solely on his say so, rather than any objectively verifiable data." 


    This is why Samsung is Samsung and Apple is Apple. When Steve Jobs decided a design was bad did he present a carefully laid out collection of 'objectively verifiable data' or did 'because it sucks' suffice? To serve as an expert witness on design you have to have a deep knowledge and understanding of design, design history and design in a social context. You may have a degree in design and you probably require a pretty strong track record and be recognized as something of an authority in the field (all of applies to Urbach), but in that context, a certain amount of 'say so' is as inevitable as it is required. If it was all about a bunch of statistical facts an expert is hardly necessary. Someone to expertly deliver the data would do.

  • Reply 18 of 35
    ufwaufwa Posts: 64member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by paxman View Post


    This is why Samsung is Samsung and Apple is Apple. When Steve Jobs decided a design was bad did he present a carefully laid out collection of 'objectively verifiable data' or did 'because it sucks' suffice? To serve as an expert witness on design you have to have a deep knowledge and understanding of design, design history and design in a social context. You may have a degree in design and you probably require a pretty strong track record and be recognized as something of an authority in the field (all of applies to Urbach), but in that context, a certain amount of 'say so' is as inevitable as it is required. If it was all about a bunch of statistical facts an expert is hardly necessary. Someone to expertly deliver the data would do.



    well that depends. For individuals like steve, just saying it sucks without any reason flies regardless even if it was something quantifiable.  But I agree there are times where you really can't put a data value on it like weight or size. It might perfect in all those areas but then the only word you can reject on is its ugly with no point of reference.   Since we can't see exactly what he is saying that Samsung is objecting to its difficult make any conclusions there are some hints from the unredacted portions. "Mr. Urbach has admitted he has no experience in product design, or market, and therefore any opinions he could offer would be beyond his area of expertise."

  • Reply 19 of 35
    gtrgtr Posts: 3,231member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tune View Post


    Isn't anyone going to say Samsung is slavishly using the word slavish?

     



     


    What would be the point?


     


    It's already been established that Samsung copies what Apple does, and Apple used the word 'slavish' in a legal sense, what, twelve or more months ago?


     


    Hell, Samsung don't even seem able to use their own legal terms in court.

  • Reply 20 of 35


    Hummm...


    How about when three or four generations of the same family are devoted to buying only Chev or Ford, as is a common habit. Cultish or simple brand loyalty?


     


    I don't think the average Apple user is part of a cult slavishly flowing magical products, but common consumers that want the stuff they buy to simply work and work simply. Apple appears to be a company that makes original, highly innovative products and earns their customer's loyalty by standing behind those products with support and excellent customer service. 


     


    Samsung has chosen to use Google's "free" Android operating system (cue booing from fan boys) as the cornerstone of their product line. Android has much less consistency between versions, no dependable upgrade for older products and new products are known to ship with out of date operating systems. HTC is currently going down in flames because of Android and the court battle carnage.


     


    Samsung's legal arguments drip with envy for the kind of customer loyalty that Apple has earned. I would have thought their high paid legal team would have come up with better arguments, these seem just plain silly.

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