The Surface Pro is not a tablet as anyone else has thought of a tablet. It is a MacBook Air equivalent. Size, weight, processor, keyboard & screen; all are 11" MBA class, the only thing we don't know is the price. If it is about $999, it will be a 11" MBA class device exactly. That thought is a very scary one for all the laptop manufacturers because that is exactly the price point they have been desperately trying to get their quality ultrabooks down to, unsuccessfully to date.
Sure... the Surface Pro might eat into the competitors' ultrabook sales... but how much of a hit will that be? How many ultrabooks do these OEMs sell compared to their much cheaper offerings?
A quick check of the latest Best Buy ad turns up 10 laptops from $379 to $949.
$1000 is still very much on the high end for a computer.
If Microsoft's only laptop/tablet is around $1000... I don't think the OEMs have anything to worry about.
Good point about the 11" MBA... but that's a whole other topic. This discussion is focusing on Windows OEMs...
Also interesting is that they never showed Office running on either of these things. I mean they never showed *anything* really, but the chief draw of the RT tablet is the (supposedly) built-in ARM versions of Word, Excel, and Powerpoint that come with the thing and are (presumably, supposedly), optimised for touch input.
I mean if your selling something as an Office tool, the least you could do is show how it works with a simple document.
Personally, I don't believe "Office for ARM" even exists or ever will.
My experience with Office predates the ribbon interface element...
But, even then, there were so many levels of bands of controls (especially in Word) that little was left for actual content... (I know you could configure/eliminate some of these, but there didn't seem to be any plan to the controls included in a given band).
I cannot imagine MS bringing Office to a tablet (touch or stylus) without scrapping and reimplementing the entire UI. Apple did a tolerable job of the iDevice UI for Pages, Numbers and Keynote... MS, I got no faith in!
Former Dell CEO doesn't think Surface will sell very well. One thing he mentioned that not a lot of people are talking about is companies allowing people to use their personal tablets at work. Where I work (fortune 50 company) the company is not purchasing tablets for us, but they're allowing us to use our personal tablets to connect to the company network. If the draw of Surface is that it will be enterprise friendly is it going to be good enough to be a laptop replacement for companies? Somehow I doubt corporations will be replacing their laptops with this. And if others are doing what my company is it will be up to consumers to buy their own tablet. It will be tough to beat out Apple in the consumer space.
I watched the keynote video. It was incredibly sad, and pathetic. There were constant veiled references to the iPad, I laughed when Ballmer talked about the innovation Microsloth has done in the past few years. There was virtually no actual demonstrations of the surface itself. They spent almost all the time talking about the physical characteristics of the unit. "It is only _____ mm wide!" "It has a professionally designed kick stand that goes away." "Look at this venting."
They just don't get it. They still think in terms of a desktop unit. The thing (according to M$), is a small PC with a keyboard. And what a keyboard! Holy copy of the Apple smart cover! I couldn't believe it. If I want a tablet, I don't want to type on a stupid pliable keyboard. Why the hell would I want a trackpad, when the entire glass surface is trackpad!
The video about how they built it. "Wow, this is really hard!" It seemed to convey the image that they had never designed any hardware before.
The entire setting seemed contrived too. How many people were there, 20, 30? It didn't appear to be that many more than that, and it was obvious there were ringers in the audience. The name of the case, vapourware! Too funny!
No release date, no real details. It was just so sad.
Mate, what are you talking about? How can you copy something that doesn't exist? iPad hasn't even got keyboard on their smart cover. Plus, MS cover doesn't fold like Apple's - Surface depends on built-in stand, compared to iPad's foldable cover. Then look at layers of Surface's keyboard cover, compared to simple piece of plastic iPad's cover is. Even material doesn't look the same.
Technology used to create finish on the case is called VapourMg - do yourself a bit of favour and get your fact right before posting. While case manufacturing process is related to liquid metal technology in general, it is not Apple's LiquidMetal technology - as described here:
Re vents, when you are running i5 in handheld device, smart venting is very important as, depending on how you hold tablet, different sides of tablet might be blocked with one's hand/lap.
Re keyboard, some people don't like on-screen keyboard to block more than 50% of screen, especially if what you are typing/editing/reviewing has more complex structure (with graphics, tables, formulas...). Plus - having screen and keyboard on the same plane is probably one of the most uncomfortable typing experiences one can think of. Apple is remedying that with 3rd party case/keyboard solutions; MS simply went a step further.
Who needs a Pc in a tablet form? From my personal experience, more than 50% of tablet users I know - me included, and huge majority of our corporate users who need their desktop apps to be available on tablets as well. Of course, only time will tell what is demand going to be on a global scale, but I can see huge market for this.
The thing is, one OEM gets a $85 discount on the OS. That amounts to about a 10-20% discount on a $500-$1000 device, which is a huge amount of money. That's money Microsoft can use to give it a better case, and a nicer screen, maybe a larger battery.
So, just to match Microsoft's offering, other OEMs have to really squeeze the supply chain or sell for no profit [while MS makes a profit both on their own tablets AND all the OEMs]. And then, as icing on the cake, Microsoft makes extra money selling apps and content for the tablets. And their tablets can have no-charge updates, so match what Apple does, while other OEMs can't afford to update older models...because they made no money on them...
Never mind that it also gives the MS hardware group a huge advantage over other OEMs for getting all the bugs fixed.
Has anybody done this kind of thing successfully in the past [as in both created their own software/hardware and licensed the software to others to make competing products]. It was a train wreck when Apple did it with PowerPC clones, and PalmOS licensing really went nowhere...and that's all I can think of off the top of my head.
Yes, but this one OEM is still paying someone to make their tablets - I don't think MS has their own manufacturing, do they? Acer, Samsung, HP (to some degree at least) do have their own factories. That might be equalizing factor.
I am surprised Microsoft could actually discuss this for over 46 minutes. If I were in the audience, I would probably have to be ushered out from laughing too loudly. Ballmer is so full of #*$&. Their whole company is based on leaving the hardware design left to their OEM partners, yet they are NOW realizing that better products are made better if the OS company designed the entire product themselves. I actually envision OEM partners suing Microsoft for selling a competing when Microsoft doesn't pay for the OS. WOW, a 22 degree bevel and less than 1 inch thick! HAHAHA.
LIquid metal magnesium case? Um, ALL metal becomes liquid when you heat to the melting temperature so that it can be casted into a mold. PVD coating has been around for YEARS and it a coating process not a case mfg process. I was cracking up when the presenter couldn't get the first one to work. HAHA. THIS HAS TO BE A JOKE.
It is a bit more complex than just heating and cooling metal. You can read about liquid metal (and what it means) here:
Does anyone seriously think Apple hasn't prototyped something similar? The touch cover for the RT device looks gimmicky and something that wouldn't work very well.
The reason for the cover with the keyboard and touchpad is simple: it's required to be able to use the Pro tablet.
16:9 in landscape doesn't leave a lot of visible screen space for content if there is an on-screen keyboard. And the primary reason for the Pro tablet, to run non-Metro apps, requires mouse input. Hell, they even had to throw in a stylus so you can select stuff when you aren't using the cover.
The only innovation is they managed to promote this as touch device when it requires an external mouse [touchpad or stylus] and keyboard to effectively use it. And then wouldn't let ANYONE even touch the keyboard.
Look at Acer Iconia sales. That'll give you some idea of how the "netbook + tablet hybrid" concept is doing.
You'll note that it isn't really blowing away consumers. I doubt a clever Smart Cover-with-keyboard will make much of a difference.
What?
You obviously have absolutely no idea what you're talking about given that the Acer Iconia doesn't offer any 'netbook + tablet hybrid' remotely similar to the Microsoft Surface, and if you're referring to Asus' Transformer series, they obviously sell well enough to merit the concept being now on its 3rd generation/iteration.
Mate, what are you talking about? How can you copy something that doesn't exist? iPad hasn't even got keyboard on their smart cover. Plus, MS cover doesn't fold like Apple's - Surface depends on built-in stand, compared to iPad's foldable cover. Then look at layers of Surface's keyboard cover, compared to simple piece of plastic iPad's cover is. Even material doesn't look the same.
Technology used to create finish on the case is called VapourMg - do yourself a bit of favour and get your fact right before posting. While case manufacturing process is related to liquid metal technology in general, it is not Apple's LiquidMetal technology - as described here:
Re vents, when you are running i5 in handheld device, smart venting is very important as, depending on how you hold tablet, different sides of tablet might be blocked with one's hand/lap.
Re keyboard, some people don't like on-screen keyboard to block more than 50% of screen, especially if what you are typing/editing/reviewing has more complex structure (with graphics, tables, formulas...). Plus - having screen and keyboard on the same plane is probably one of the most uncomfortable typing experiences one can think of. Apple is remedying that with 3rd party case/keyboard solutions; MS simply went a step further.
I was referring to the general form factor of the cover, not to it's specific functionality, re: it doesn't fold like the iPad cover. I was also referring to the way the surface's cover snaps on with magnets, again, exactly like the iPad cover.
I was being sarcastic when referring to the case metal as "Vapourware." Thanks for catching that.
Again, I was making a note on how the presentation had no actual demonstrations, so the presenters were busy trying to fill their time with physical descriptions of the device, re: talking about the vents. Since there was literally nothing else for them to do.
It seems to be difficult to convey sarcasm and mocking in print form.
The reason for the cover with the keyboard and touchpad is simple: it's required to be able to use the Pro tablet.
16:9 in landscape doesn't leave a lot of visible screen space for content if there is an on-screen keyboard. And the primary reason for the Pro tablet, to run non-Metro apps, requires mouse input. Hell, they even had to throw in a stylus so you can select stuff when you aren't using the cover.
The only innovation is they managed to promote this as touch device when it requires an external mouse [touchpad or stylus] and keyboard to effectively use it. And then wouldn't let ANYONE even touch the keyboard.
The writers for CNET, Engadget, Gizmodo, etc. should be embarrassed at how hard they fell for a half baked product that they never got to properly test out. They were falling all over each other declaring this touch cover keyboard the greatest thing ever yet not one of them actually got to type on it to see if it actually worked. And people complain about Apple fans buying into hype and slick marketing. Just imagine the comments on these websites if Apple had a special event to launch a product and gave you next to no specs, no price or availability and didn't let anyone from the tech media try it out.
That surface has fail written all over it. The well paid reviewers giving that non-demonstrate product high praise are pathetic.
Steve Ballmer can wipe his butt after a number two, show the pro MS trolls his doo doo and they'd write about how goddamn innovative and game changing that blood and feces soaked piece of toilet paper is.
Kudos to MS for making you so passionate about their new product
They actually said at the event that it will be priced in the same range as "other" ultra book class PC's.
So you're analysis is correct at least for the Pro version which will be probably 900-1000 dollars or so. Since they copied pretty much everything else from Apple, I would be this will be announced at the exact same price point as the Air. The RT model (the one the idiots will buy), is almost certainly cheaper, but likely can't approach the 500 dollars of the iPad, so I would say $699.00 or $649.00 or thereabouts. This will force everyone in the market to eat margins for breakfast and accelerate the whole "the rest of the industry except for Apple is failing" syndrome.
This makes it even weirder. Now they have two drastically different products which I already knew, but they market them with the same basic name, which I already knew. But even MS claims they are different classes of devices, something I have not caught anywhere else (I didn't bother with the video). I predict significant customer confusion supported by even less clear Microsoft marketing of everything and the kitchen sink with the same name.
Sure... the Surface Pro might eat into the competitors' ultrabook sales... but how much of a hit will that be? How many ultrabooks do these OEMs sell compared to their much cheaper offerings?
A quick check of the latest Best Buy ad turns up 10 laptops from $379 to $949.
$1000 is still very much on the high end for a computer.
If Microsoft's only laptop/tablet is around $1000... I don't think the OEMs have anything to worry about.
Good point about the 11" MBA... but that's a whole other topic. This discussion is focusing on Windows OEMs...
I think the other manufacturers do have problems. Acer is in serious risk going bankrupt after failed netbook sales where volume did not make up for non-existant margin badly enough that when sales merely flattened it turned into massive losses. The ultrabooks are supposed to be Intel's offer to the PC manufacturers to make something with a profit margin that is competitive with Apple offerings. If Microsoft eats up the lions share of that space, there isn't anything left except commodity ultra-low margin PCs and laptops in a declining traditional PC/laptop market share environment.
Comments
Sure... the Surface Pro might eat into the competitors' ultrabook sales... but how much of a hit will that be? How many ultrabooks do these OEMs sell compared to their much cheaper offerings?
A quick check of the latest Best Buy ad turns up 10 laptops from $379 to $949.
$1000 is still very much on the high end for a computer.
If Microsoft's only laptop/tablet is around $1000... I don't think the OEMs have anything to worry about.
Good point about the 11" MBA... but that's a whole other topic. This discussion is focusing on Windows OEMs...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
Also interesting is that they never showed Office running on either of these things. I mean they never showed *anything* really, but the chief draw of the RT tablet is the (supposedly) built-in ARM versions of Word, Excel, and Powerpoint that come with the thing and are (presumably, supposedly), optimised for touch input.
I mean if your selling something as an Office tool, the least you could do is show how it works with a simple document.
Personally, I don't believe "Office for ARM" even exists or ever will.
My experience with Office predates the ribbon interface element...
But, even then, there were so many levels of bands of controls (especially in Word) that little was left for actual content... (I know you could configure/eliminate some of these, but there didn't seem to be any plan to the controls included in a given band).
I cannot imagine MS bringing Office to a tablet (touch or stylus) without scrapping and reimplementing the entire UI. Apple did a tolerable job of the iDevice UI for Pages, Numbers and Keynote... MS, I got no faith in!
http://www.bgr.com/2012/06/20/microsoft-surface-tablet-sales-kevin-rollins-dell/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maecvs
I watched the keynote video. It was incredibly sad, and pathetic. There were constant veiled references to the iPad, I laughed when Ballmer talked about the innovation Microsloth has done in the past few years. There was virtually no actual demonstrations of the surface itself. They spent almost all the time talking about the physical characteristics of the unit. "It is only _____ mm wide!" "It has a professionally designed kick stand that goes away." "Look at this venting."
They just don't get it. They still think in terms of a desktop unit. The thing (according to M$), is a small PC with a keyboard. And what a keyboard! Holy copy of the Apple smart cover! I couldn't believe it. If I want a tablet, I don't want to type on a stupid pliable keyboard. Why the hell would I want a trackpad, when the entire glass surface is trackpad!
The video about how they built it. "Wow, this is really hard!" It seemed to convey the image that they had never designed any hardware before.
The entire setting seemed contrived too. How many people were there, 20, 30? It didn't appear to be that many more than that, and it was obvious there were ringers in the audience. The name of the case, vapourware! Too funny!
No release date, no real details. It was just so sad.
Mate, what are you talking about? How can you copy something that doesn't exist? iPad hasn't even got keyboard on their smart cover. Plus, MS cover doesn't fold like Apple's - Surface depends on built-in stand, compared to iPad's foldable cover. Then look at layers of Surface's keyboard cover, compared to simple piece of plastic iPad's cover is. Even material doesn't look the same.
Technology used to create finish on the case is called VapourMg - do yourself a bit of favour and get your fact right before posting. While case manufacturing process is related to liquid metal technology in general, it is not Apple's LiquidMetal technology - as described here:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/06/19/microsoft-surfaces-liquid-metal-is-not-the-same-as-apples-liquidmetal/?feed=rss_home
Re vents, when you are running i5 in handheld device, smart venting is very important as, depending on how you hold tablet, different sides of tablet might be blocked with one's hand/lap.
Re keyboard, some people don't like on-screen keyboard to block more than 50% of screen, especially if what you are typing/editing/reviewing has more complex structure (with graphics, tables, formulas...). Plus - having screen and keyboard on the same plane is probably one of the most uncomfortable typing experiences one can think of. Apple is remedying that with 3rd party case/keyboard solutions; MS simply went a step further.
Who needs a Pc in a tablet form? From my personal experience, more than 50% of tablet users I know - me included, and huge majority of our corporate users who need their desktop apps to be available on tablets as well. Of course, only time will tell what is demand going to be on a global scale, but I can see huge market for this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by umrk_lab
The PC platform, as we know it, is dead.
More than 1 billion Windows machines around the world seem to disagree with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatisgoingon
The thing is, one OEM gets a $85 discount on the OS. That amounts to about a 10-20% discount on a $500-$1000 device, which is a huge amount of money. That's money Microsoft can use to give it a better case, and a nicer screen, maybe a larger battery.
So, just to match Microsoft's offering, other OEMs have to really squeeze the supply chain or sell for no profit [while MS makes a profit both on their own tablets AND all the OEMs]. And then, as icing on the cake, Microsoft makes extra money selling apps and content for the tablets. And their tablets can have no-charge updates, so match what Apple does, while other OEMs can't afford to update older models...because they made no money on them...
Never mind that it also gives the MS hardware group a huge advantage over other OEMs for getting all the bugs fixed.
Has anybody done this kind of thing successfully in the past [as in both created their own software/hardware and licensed the software to others to make competing products]. It was a train wreck when Apple did it with PowerPC clones, and PalmOS licensing really went nowhere...and that's all I can think of off the top of my head.
Yes, but this one OEM is still paying someone to make their tablets - I don't think MS has their own manufacturing, do they? Acer, Samsung, HP (to some degree at least) do have their own factories. That might be equalizing factor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank
I am surprised Microsoft could actually discuss this for over 46 minutes. If I were in the audience, I would probably have to be ushered out from laughing too loudly. Ballmer is so full of #*$&. Their whole company is based on leaving the hardware design left to their OEM partners, yet they are NOW realizing that better products are made better if the OS company designed the entire product themselves. I actually envision OEM partners suing Microsoft for selling a competing when Microsoft doesn't pay for the OS. WOW, a 22 degree bevel and less than 1 inch thick! HAHAHA.
LIquid metal magnesium case? Um, ALL metal becomes liquid when you heat to the melting temperature so that it can be casted into a mold. PVD coating has been around for YEARS and it a coating process not a case mfg process. I was cracking up when the presenter couldn't get the first one to work. HAHA. THIS HAS TO BE A JOKE.
It is a bit more complex than just heating and cooling metal. You can read about liquid metal (and what it means) here:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/06/19/microsoft-surfaces-liquid-metal-is-not-the-same-as-apples-liquidmetal/?feed=rss_home
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan
Does anyone seriously think Apple hasn't prototyped something similar? The touch cover for the RT device looks gimmicky and something that wouldn't work very well.
The reason for the cover with the keyboard and touchpad is simple: it's required to be able to use the Pro tablet.
16:9 in landscape doesn't leave a lot of visible screen space for content if there is an on-screen keyboard. And the primary reason for the Pro tablet, to run non-Metro apps, requires mouse input. Hell, they even had to throw in a stylus so you can select stuff when you aren't using the cover.
The only innovation is they managed to promote this as touch device when it requires an external mouse [touchpad or stylus] and keyboard to effectively use it. And then wouldn't let ANYONE even touch the keyboard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610
Look at Acer Iconia sales. That'll give you some idea of how the "netbook + tablet hybrid" concept is doing.
You'll note that it isn't really blowing away consumers. I doubt a clever Smart Cover-with-keyboard will make much of a difference.
What?
You obviously have absolutely no idea what you're talking about given that the Acer Iconia doesn't offer any 'netbook + tablet hybrid' remotely similar to the Microsoft Surface, and if you're referring to Asus' Transformer series, they obviously sell well enough to merit the concept being now on its 3rd generation/iteration.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133
Mate, what are you talking about? How can you copy something that doesn't exist? iPad hasn't even got keyboard on their smart cover. Plus, MS cover doesn't fold like Apple's - Surface depends on built-in stand, compared to iPad's foldable cover. Then look at layers of Surface's keyboard cover, compared to simple piece of plastic iPad's cover is. Even material doesn't look the same.
Technology used to create finish on the case is called VapourMg - do yourself a bit of favour and get your fact right before posting. While case manufacturing process is related to liquid metal technology in general, it is not Apple's LiquidMetal technology - as described here:
Re vents, when you are running i5 in handheld device, smart venting is very important as, depending on how you hold tablet, different sides of tablet might be blocked with one's hand/lap.
Re keyboard, some people don't like on-screen keyboard to block more than 50% of screen, especially if what you are typing/editing/reviewing has more complex structure (with graphics, tables, formulas...). Plus - having screen and keyboard on the same plane is probably one of the most uncomfortable typing experiences one can think of. Apple is remedying that with 3rd party case/keyboard solutions; MS simply went a step further.
I was referring to the general form factor of the cover, not to it's specific functionality, re: it doesn't fold like the iPad cover. I was also referring to the way the surface's cover snaps on with magnets, again, exactly like the iPad cover.
I was being sarcastic when referring to the case metal as "Vapourware." Thanks for catching that.
Again, I was making a note on how the presentation had no actual demonstrations, so the presenters were busy trying to fill their time with physical descriptions of the device, re: talking about the vents. Since there was literally nothing else for them to do.
It seems to be difficult to convey sarcasm and mocking in print form.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133
More than 1 billion Windows machines around the world seem to disagree with you.
Your user name makes this statement ironic... actually it would have been more ironic if it was kodak133.
You figure it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maccherry
That surface has fail written all over it. The well paid reviewers giving that non-demonstrate product high praise are pathetic.
Steve Ballmer can wipe his butt after a number two, show the pro MS trolls his doo doo and they'd write about how goddamn innovative and game changing that blood and feces soaked piece of toilet paper is.
Kudos to MS for making you so passionate about their new product
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
They actually said at the event that it will be priced in the same range as "other" ultra book class PC's.
So you're analysis is correct at least for the Pro version which will be probably 900-1000 dollars or so. Since they copied pretty much everything else from Apple, I would be this will be announced at the exact same price point as the Air. The RT model (the one the idiots will buy), is almost certainly cheaper, but likely can't approach the 500 dollars of the iPad, so I would say $699.00 or $649.00 or thereabouts. This will force everyone in the market to eat margins for breakfast and accelerate the whole "the rest of the industry except for Apple is failing" syndrome.
This makes it even weirder. Now they have two drastically different products which I already knew, but they market them with the same basic name, which I already knew. But even MS claims they are different classes of devices, something I have not caught anywhere else (I didn't bother with the video). I predict significant customer confusion supported by even less clear Microsoft marketing of everything and the kitchen sink with the same name.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Scrip
Sure... the Surface Pro might eat into the competitors' ultrabook sales... but how much of a hit will that be? How many ultrabooks do these OEMs sell compared to their much cheaper offerings?
A quick check of the latest Best Buy ad turns up 10 laptops from $379 to $949.
$1000 is still very much on the high end for a computer.
If Microsoft's only laptop/tablet is around $1000... I don't think the OEMs have anything to worry about.
Good point about the 11" MBA... but that's a whole other topic. This discussion is focusing on Windows OEMs...
I think the other manufacturers do have problems. Acer is in serious risk going bankrupt after failed netbook sales where volume did not make up for non-existant margin badly enough that when sales merely flattened it turned into massive losses. The ultrabooks are supposed to be Intel's offer to the PC manufacturers to make something with a profit margin that is competitive with Apple offerings. If Microsoft eats up the lions share of that space, there isn't anything left except commodity ultra-low margin PCs and laptops in a declining traditional PC/laptop market share environment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit
Your user name makes this statement ironic... actually it would have been more ironic if it was kodak133.
You figure it out.
Other appropriate usernames:
commodore64 joe
pilot of the palm
trs80
You get the point