It's sad that this needs to get explained again and again. Watching Cook patiently explain to McCain over and over what should be obvious was more stressful than teaching my grandmother how to use any modern technology.
McCain actually seemed to learn a bit. Levin, however, remained as dense as a stone.
Who is the largest corporate taxpayer in the US? Apple?
So I guess Apple's billions in taxes paid for a nice chunk of all that. More than any of you guys paid to use the same things.
I think you've missed the original post where it was claimed that Apple shouldn't pay repatriation tax because the Federal Government doesn't do anything for them.
I think you've missed the original post where it was claimed that Apple shouldn't pay repatriation tax because the Federal Government doesn't do anything for them.
The examples above were counters to that.
The Federal Government can do NOTHING without taxpayers. If they help in any way, it's thanks to the ones who pay for it!
Who is the largest corporate taxpayer in the US? Apple?
So I guess Apple's billions in taxes paid for a nice chunk of all that. More than any of you guys paid to use the same things.
The argument has been over percentages, not absolute amounts. Beyond that I don't really care to argue with your ridiculous strawman as it compares an entity of several thousand people and however many investors to a single individual.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Again with your made up crap! Double tax implies being taxed twice. That's the definition of the word "double". That you can't wrap your head around the concept that you get to decide neither what is "significant" nor what is an acceptable amount of times to tax someone is YOUR problem.
I'm genuinely unsure if you're aware of this, but foreign tax credits means it is not 35% + what they paid in whatever foreign country. It's not always clear what is non-US income anyway. Here's a link on Starbucks. I'm not implying Apple does this. The article covers practices of earnings stripping (loaning themselves money at exorbitant interest rates) and transfer pricing of coffee beans that was relatively decoupled from fair market value. It also mentions royalty payments to another subsidiary, so apparently they license their own IP. I'm not going to argue that estimated tax liabilities don't factor into retail pricing, but it's not an entirely elastic thing. If it gets too expensive, people may stop drinking as much coffee or hold onto their phone an additional cycle. What is disingenuous is when people apply the fallacy of a linear relationship between tax rates on profits and retail pricing.
That's great. I don't think anyone is criticising anything about Apple's corporation tax on its profits in the USA.A
And I do blame the governments. I've said more than once that while I don't condone what Apple have set up, I think it's very clever and I don't blame them for doing it. But they have been allowed to do it via gaps in the international tax system and insufficient regulation of transfer pricing by governments. If you're going to applaud them for paying so much tax in the USA then can you not see that it is reasonable for citizens of other countries to say "hang on, why not us too?". And further to that, it is interesting to explore ideas for what needs to be done to prevent it, to Apple's detriment, without seeing such discussions as an attack on Apple itself but as an attack on aggressive tax avoidance in general.
There is no "international tax system". There are just hundreds of individual national tax systems. The problem is, why pray tell would Ireland want to prevent it?
Let's see if we can find a few things that your federal taxes pay for - that benefit companies:
The Federal government:
1. Pays a large part of the cost of educating our kids.
2. Pays a large part of the cost of roads, ports, airports, etc.
3. Pays to defend our country (which is an enormous portion of the total tax revenues). Without a Federal Government, you'd probably be speaking Russian. Or maybe Chinese.
4. Provides the backbone of a banking system which is the envy of the world
5. Provides for rules that regulate pollution, food production, and so on. WIthout the Federal government, you'd probably be sick from pollution and bad food.
6. Invests enormously in technology development. It would be nearly impossible to find any existing technologies that weren't funded, at least in part, by the Federal Government.
7. Patents and other laws which provide for IP protection - which allows companies to profit from their own innovation.
There are many more, but that's a start. Arguing that companies don't benefit from Federal expenditures is just plain absurd.
Most of that could (and should) be done privately. Only defense (actual defense) and perhaps some pollution stuff arguably must be done through the government. IP protection is government granted monopoly and, arguably, isn't necessary either.
The argument is not "plain absurd."
Man, you are a piece of work
Who are you? Mr. Potter from "It's A Wonderful Life"?
Most of that could (and should) be done privately. Only defense (actual defense) and perhaps some pollution stuff arguably must be done through the government. IP protection is government granted monopoly and, arguably, isn't necessary either.
The argument is not "plain absurd."
You did not even read the list or stopped at "education" and immediately went to "private". Of course, why should the poor have an education since they are just field workers and day laborers, right?
And regulations on food and safety? Do you really think private business can self regulate? Bangalore anyone?
Any form of IP protection on the honor system? Are you serious?
Do you want to pay a toll on every single road you drive on? Seriously? Do you think every road should be a toll road? Every side street? Every highway? Every Interstate?
Do you think private business would have made it to the moon in the 60's and, in doing so, created the multi-trillion dollar silicon industry. That industry alone got a 10 to 15 year boost due to the government spending on big science. Do you think private industry would build things like the Tevatron (I still weep for the near sighted fools that killed the SCSC)?
While privatization can be a good thing (basic utilities for example) it can also be disastrous (prisons for example) when the needs of the private company do not align with the needs of society.
So how do the countries who do have good roads, good education, good transportation, do it?
Mainly through higher taxation. The Nordic countries come at the very top of pretty much every measure of well-being and it's achieved through continued investment through taxation.
I'm really not sure how I can providence any evidence better than them paying less than 1% corporation rate on the fortune in the Irish subsidiaries, and a similar effective tax rate throughout the whole of Europe. It's clear avoidance.
So you have no evidence that Apple has done anything wrong. They pay the taxes that are required by law. Where is teh tax evasion that you keep claiming?
Just so you know; this one little exchange right here makes it seem like you don't know the difference between the words "avoidance" and "evasion". And particularly as they relate to taxes.
You did not even read the list or stopped at "education" and immediately went to "private".
Yes I did read the entire list. Not making stupid assumptions here will help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N.
Of course, why should the poor have an education since they are just field workers and day laborers, right?
Jumping right into a non sequitur huh? Good job!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N.
And regulations on food and safety? Do you really think private business can self regulate? Bangalore anyone?
Any form of IP protection on the honor system? Are you serious?
Do you want to pay a toll on every single road you drive on? Seriously? Do you think every road should be a toll road? Every side street? Every highway? Every Interstate?
Followed by another and a few straw men and false choices. You're on a role here!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N.
Do you think private business would have made it to the moon in the 60's and, in doing so, created the multi-trillion dollar silicon industry.
Then a myth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N.
While privatization can be a good thing (basic utilities for example) it can also be disastrous (prisons for example) when the needs of the private company do not align with the needs of society.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
It's sad that this needs to get explained again and again. Watching Cook patiently explain to McCain over and over what should be obvious was more stressful than teaching my grandmother how to use any modern technology.
McCain actually seemed to learn a bit. Levin, however, remained as dense as a stone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by studiomusic
And who pays for all of that? The government?
Where do they get their money? From taxpayers?
Who is the largest corporate taxpayer in the US? Apple?
So I guess Apple's billions in taxes paid for a nice chunk of all that. More than any of you guys paid to use the same things.
I think you've missed the original post where it was claimed that Apple shouldn't pay repatriation tax because the Federal Government doesn't do anything for them.
The examples above were counters to that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley
I think you've missed the original post where it was claimed that Apple shouldn't pay repatriation tax because the Federal Government doesn't do anything for them.
The examples above were counters to that.
The Federal Government can do NOTHING without taxpayers. If they help in any way, it's thanks to the ones who pay for it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by studiomusic
And who pays for all of that? The government?
Where do they get their money? From taxpayers?
Who is the largest corporate taxpayer in the US? Apple?
So I guess Apple's billions in taxes paid for a nice chunk of all that. More than any of you guys paid to use the same things.
The argument has been over percentages, not absolute amounts. Beyond that I don't really care to argue with your ridiculous strawman as it compares an entity of several thousand people and however many investors to a single individual.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Again with your made up crap! Double tax implies being taxed twice. That's the definition of the word "double". That you can't wrap your head around the concept that you get to decide neither what is "significant" nor what is an acceptable amount of times to tax someone is YOUR problem.
I'm genuinely unsure if you're aware of this, but foreign tax credits means it is not 35% + what they paid in whatever foreign country. It's not always clear what is non-US income anyway. Here's a link on Starbucks. I'm not implying Apple does this. The article covers practices of earnings stripping (loaning themselves money at exorbitant interest rates) and transfer pricing of coffee beans that was relatively decoupled from fair market value. It also mentions royalty payments to another subsidiary, so apparently they license their own IP. I'm not going to argue that estimated tax liabilities don't factor into retail pricing, but it's not an entirely elastic thing. If it gets too expensive, people may stop drinking as much coffee or hold onto their phone an additional cycle. What is disingenuous is when people apply the fallacy of a linear relationship between tax rates on profits and retail pricing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley
That's great. I don't think anyone is criticising anything about Apple's corporation tax on its profits in the USA.A
And I do blame the governments. I've said more than once that while I don't condone what Apple have set up, I think it's very clever and I don't blame them for doing it. But they have been allowed to do it via gaps in the international tax system and insufficient regulation of transfer pricing by governments. If you're going to applaud them for paying so much tax in the USA then can you not see that it is reasonable for citizens of other countries to say "hang on, why not us too?". And further to that, it is interesting to explore ideas for what needs to be done to prevent it, to Apple's detriment, without seeing such discussions as an attack on Apple itself but as an attack on aggressive tax avoidance in general.
There is no "international tax system". There are just hundreds of individual national tax systems. The problem is, why pray tell would Ireland want to prevent it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Let's see if we can find a few things that your federal taxes pay for - that benefit companies:
The Federal government:
1. Pays a large part of the cost of educating our kids.
2. Pays a large part of the cost of roads, ports, airports, etc.
3. Pays to defend our country (which is an enormous portion of the total tax revenues). Without a Federal Government, you'd probably be speaking Russian. Or maybe Chinese.
4. Provides the backbone of a banking system which is the envy of the world
5. Provides for rules that regulate pollution, food production, and so on. WIthout the Federal government, you'd probably be sick from pollution and bad food.
6. Invests enormously in technology development. It would be nearly impossible to find any existing technologies that weren't funded, at least in part, by the Federal Government.
7. Patents and other laws which provide for IP protection - which allows companies to profit from their own innovation.
There are many more, but that's a start. Arguing that companies don't benefit from Federal expenditures is just plain absurd.
Most of that could (and should) be done privately. Only defense (actual defense) and perhaps some pollution stuff arguably must be done through the government. IP protection is government granted monopoly and, arguably, isn't necessary either.
The argument is not "plain absurd."
Man, you are a piece of work
Who are you? Mr. Potter from "It's A Wonderful Life"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by studiomusic
The Federal Government can do NOTHING without taxpayers. If they help in any way, it's thanks to the ones who pay for it!
Sure, no one's arguing against that in principle, but it's a rules-based system, not a thanks-based system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley
Sure, no one's arguing against that in principle, but it's a rules-based system, not a thanks-based system.
And Apple follows the rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970
Most of that could (and should) be done privately. Only defense (actual defense) and perhaps some pollution stuff arguably must be done through the government. IP protection is government granted monopoly and, arguably, isn't necessary either.
The argument is not "plain absurd."
You did not even read the list or stopped at "education" and immediately went to "private". Of course, why should the poor have an education since they are just field workers and day laborers, right?
And regulations on food and safety? Do you really think private business can self regulate? Bangalore anyone?
Any form of IP protection on the honor system? Are you serious?
Do you want to pay a toll on every single road you drive on? Seriously? Do you think every road should be a toll road? Every side street? Every highway? Every Interstate?
Do you think private business would have made it to the moon in the 60's and, in doing so, created the multi-trillion dollar silicon industry. That industry alone got a 10 to 15 year boost due to the government spending on big science. Do you think private industry would build things like the Tevatron (I still weep for the near sighted fools that killed the SCSC)?
While privatization can be a good thing (basic utilities for example) it can also be disastrous (prisons for example) when the needs of the private company do not align with the needs of society.
Quote:
Originally Posted by studiomusic
And Apple follows the rules.
And no one's arguing against that either. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso
So how do the countries who do have good roads, good education, good transportation, do it?
Mainly through higher taxation. The Nordic countries come at the very top of pretty much every measure of well-being and it's achieved through continued investment through taxation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970
I see what you're doing there. I'll assume most others aren't dumb enough to fall for it (but I could be wrong on that.)
oh, yeah,
That ARPAnet/NSFnet thing... whatever became of it. Damn government... probably threw it away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso
Man, you are a piece of work
Who are you? Mr. Potter from "It's A Wonderful Life"?
And this is an argument how exactly?
Oh, it's not, you just went straight to ad hominem. Got it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley
I'm really not sure how I can providence any evidence better than them paying less than 1% corporation rate on the fortune in the Irish subsidiaries, and a similar effective tax rate throughout the whole of Europe. It's clear avoidance.
So you have no evidence that Apple has done anything wrong. They pay the taxes that are required by law. Where is teh tax evasion that you keep claiming?
Just so you know; this one little exchange right here makes it seem like you don't know the difference between the words "avoidance" and "evasion". And particularly as they relate to taxes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N.
You did not even read the list or stopped at "education" and immediately went to "private".
Yes I did read the entire list. Not making stupid assumptions here will help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N.
Of course, why should the poor have an education since they are just field workers and day laborers, right?
Jumping right into a non sequitur huh? Good job!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N.
And regulations on food and safety? Do you really think private business can self regulate? Bangalore anyone?
Any form of IP protection on the honor system? Are you serious?
Do you want to pay a toll on every single road you drive on? Seriously? Do you think every road should be a toll road? Every side street? Every highway? Every Interstate?
Followed by another and a few straw men and false choices. You're on a role here!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N.
Do you think private business would have made it to the moon in the 60's and, in doing so, created the multi-trillion dollar silicon industry.
Then a myth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N.
While privatization can be a good thing (basic utilities for example) it can also be disastrous (prisons for example) when the needs of the private company do not align with the needs of society.
And yet more fallacy.
Well, you're entire post was a waste of time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOtherGeoff
oh, yeah,
That ARPAnet/NSFnet thing... whatever became of it. Damn government... probably threw it away.
Still confused are you? Still making assumptions?
The dearth of logical thinking here is astonishing.
You are assuming that the only way these things would or could have come about was through the government. This fallacious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970
Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso
Man, you are a piece of work
Who are you? Mr. Potter from "It's A Wonderful Life"?
And this is an argument how exactly?
Oh, it's not, you just went straight to ad hominem. Got it.
Meh... Nothing to argue with people like you.
But enjoy your corporate dystopia dream. You may achieve it yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso
Meh... Nothing to argue with people like you.
Because you don't have one?
Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso
But enjoy your corporate dystopia dream. You may achieve it yet.
Let's be clear...it is you that has the dystopian view of freedom here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970
Because you don't have one?
Let's be clear...it is you that has the dystopian view of freedom here.
The man won't be stopped!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelsalt
The man won't be stopped!!
If you're talking about me, then no. Is that what you wish? To stop me? Stop me from doing what?