This is why Apple isn't becoming MS with the iApps...

kickaha · January 7, 2003 5:51PM

First off, while the iApps are becoming more integrated...

And while Apple is shipping its own browser, we find the following at the Apple Developer Connection...

<a href="http://developer.apple.com/darwin/projects/webcore/index.html"; target="_blank">WebCore</a>

See, where MS produces closed apps that no one else can benefit from, and which don't operate with anyone else's apps, Apple attempts to provide assistance back to the developer community through allowing them to use the same base libraries.

Don't like Safari? Use the same renderer Apple does, and make your own UI.

Don't like using Mail with iPhoto? Use what you like. iPhoto will attempt to adapt.

Apple isn't perfect, and MS isn't all evil, but:

Apple provides hooks. MS provides walls.

THAT is the difference.

mr. macintosh · January 7, 2003 7:58PM

Apple delivers where as MS never fulfills promises.

screed · January 7, 2003 8:40PM

Also during the keynote, on the screen in large letters behind Steve:

"Open Source

We think it's great."

A personal finger from Steve to Bill.

Screed

reynard · January 7, 2003 10:31PM

As a novice I would not notice a subtle things like that. But its important. Its why we, and even many Wintellers, resent Microsoft's control.

And see how relieved we were when it was revealed today that Apple isnt charging for iApps? The thought of Apple becoming more like Microsoft was dreadful.

brussell · January 7, 2003 10:42PM

Apple could not succeed using MS's strategy. They used to do it years ago but it didn't work. I think an open strategy is what differentiates Apple from MS, and what may attract users to Apple and away from MS, especially if MS tightens up in the future.

Apple is not MS, and MS's strategy would not work for Apple.

eugene · January 8, 2003 12:23AM

<a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1023-979583.html"; target="_blank">http://news.com.com/2100-1023-979583.html</a>;

[quote]Porten, an engineer in Oslo, Norway, with Trolltech who wrote the original version of KDE's JavaScript interpreter (KJS), said Apple's choice would not only raise awareness and adoption of the software, but boost KDE's development efforts.

Other KDE developers agreed.

"As far as I can judge from the changelog, so far they did some nice improvements to the code which Konqueror, KDE's integrated Web browser, can certainly benefit from," wrote KDE contributor Dirk Mueller. "They also improved KJS."<hr></blockquote>

drewprops · January 8, 2003 1:57AM

I sneaked away from work for a few hours to attend a webcast here in town and the energy in the room went WAY up when Steve got to the part about how much these improvements were going to cost us.

Just WOW....not Microsoft by a long shot.

brian paulsen · January 8, 2003 4:10PM

Apple provides hooks and MS provides walls?

Hmm, please explain to me how I can get iDisk to point at my favorite webDAV server... I would really like to be able to either get rid of the "iDisk" menu choice or have it point to something that isn't .mac.

When a company got iDVD to work with an external drive, did Apple provide a "hook" so that other companies could do the same or did they provide a "wall" so that it couldn't be done anymore?

jll · January 8, 2003 4:42PM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Paulsen:

Hmm, please explain to me how I can get iDisk to point at my favorite webDAV server... I would really like to be able to either get rid of the "iDisk" menu choice or have it point to something that isn't .mac.<hr></blockquote>

How about being able to remove the Print menu item if you don't have a printer?

elric · January 8, 2003 4:52PM

But you can print to a pdf via the print menu item. I use it all the time, its great

ast3r3x · January 8, 2003 5:37PM

yeah, save as pdf feature if awesome

stupider...likeafox · January 8, 2003 5:47PM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Paulsen:

Apple provides hooks and MS provides walls?

Hmm, please explain to me how I can get iDisk to point at my favorite webDAV server... I would really like to be able to either get rid of the "iDisk" menu choice or have it point to something that isn't .mac.

<hr></blockquote>

I don't agree with your opinion, and I think you may just be being sarcastic but here's your answer:

<a href="http://www.drijf.net/dototto/wwwmac.html"; target="_blank">http://www.drijf.net/dototto/wwwmac.html</a>;

kickaha · January 8, 2003 6:22PM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Paulsen:

Apple provides hooks and MS provides walls?

Hmm, please explain to me how I can get iDisk to point at my favorite webDAV server... I would really like to be able to either get rid of the "iDisk" menu choice or have it point to something that isn't .mac.

When a company got iDVD to work with an external drive, did Apple provide a "hook" so that other companies could do the same or did they provide a "wall" so that it couldn't be done anymore?<hr></blockquote>

Just to be pedantic, and because you apparently didn't read the original post closely:

[quote] Apple isn't perfect, and MS isn't all evil, but:

Apple provides hooks. MS provides walls.

<hr></blockquote>

In general, this is true. Also, in both of the cases you cited, it was directly linked to a revenue stream Apple is rather reliant on. .Mac gets them $25M/yr now, and the server costs are much reduced from the iTools days. Sad? Yup. But smart business.

As to why it isn't a user-definable server target, iDisk provides some nice features that a standard WebDAV server may not... but the average user isn't going to know that. (Want a nasty trojan horse delivery mechanism? Have a worm alter the /etc/hosts file as in the link posted by stupider that points to a malicious server... it *looks* like iDisk, but has apps for download that hose your system in wonderful little ways.) For those of us who have a little Terminal experience, it's a no brainer (once the server is set up, of course). A hack, but a no brainer hack. It isn't like iDisk uses a proprietary system that isn't documented anywhere... heck, Apple ships the ability to create an iDisk server *with every Mac*. What was that about no hooks? (I said they provide hooks, not obvious GUI preferences for novice users to find immediately.)

The iDVD not burning to external drives is one I originally didn't agree with, but... SuperDrives are a MAJOR selling point of Apple's higher end hardware, and are therefore something people will buy a whole computer to get. Since the only legal way you can get iDVD is through purchasing a Mac with a SuperDrive, think of this as an anti-piracy feature. If you have iDVD, and no SuperDrive, you stole the app, and shouldn't be using it anyway.

This may change with iLife, providing iDVD for $49, but I doubt it, in which case I'll reconsider my position on it.

I can't believe I actually responded to this. *sigh*

[ 01-08-2003: Message edited by: Kickaha ]

airsluf · January 8, 2003 8:35PM

jll · January 9, 2003 5:03AM

[quote]Originally posted by Elric:

But you can print to a pdf via the print menu item. I use it all the time, its great

<hr></blockquote>

I was being sarcastic.

brian paulsen · January 9, 2003 10:46AM

Ok, perhaps I'm missing something basic then or else all of you don't mind paying Apple $99 for basic service (and also don't mind when it's down, like it was over New Year's Day)

Personally, I set up my own domain because I got tired of having to tell everyone when my email address changed. I now have an email address that follows me for life and virtually no restriction on disk space. This has already started to diminish the value of the .mac services.

I then added a webserver and decided I should build my own webDAV server.

A couple of things I noticed about iDisk, and it's perhaps a reason you guys might want to think a few times about it...

1) It communicates over straight HTTP. I hope you don't use that password for anything else, because any hacker can get at the information.

2) Since it communicates over HTTP, I hope you don't use it for backing up any sensitive documents. Again, a hacker can read it easily.

What would I like to have? Throw something into utilities that lets you define where idisk is pointed. Sure, it will default to <a href="http://www.idisk.com,"; target="_blank">www.idisk.com,</a> but you could easily override. Yes, other things may break, and you could easily pop-up a warning when you change the entry saying that some iDisk features may not work.

I would even aceept a nice terminal way to do it. Modifying /etc/hosts, though really doesn't work that well for me. Due to the way my ISP is set up, port 80 is closed, so I have my webDAV server on a different port. Now, I could play with Apple's version of ipchains/iptables to forward the request to the correct server, but what a pain...

Oh, and don't let me forget. Yes, I would really prefer it if Apple could get webDAV services to work over https. I don't know about you guys, but I don't enjoy hackers having access to any of my passwords/files.

brian paulsen · January 9, 2003 11:04AM

[quote]Originally posted by Kickaha:



In general, this is true. Also, in both of the cases you cited, it was directly linked to a revenue stream Apple is rather reliant on. .Mac gets them $25M/yr now, and the server costs are much reduced from the iTools days. Sad? Yup. But smart business.



<hr></blockquote>

I don't want to defend Microsoft here, but this same argument can easily be applied to anything they have done. Many of the evil things we accuse them are directly related to their revenue streams.

[quote]



As to why it isn't a user-definable server target, iDisk provides some nice features that a standard WebDAV server may not... but the average user isn't going to know that.



<hr></blockquote>

I posted an answer to that. When a user changes the server, a dialog box could pop up warning the user that they may have reduced services. It could even say something like "For full service, sign up with the .mac services suite"

[quote]



(Want a nasty trojan horse delivery mechanism? Have a worm alter the /etc/hosts file as in the link posted by stupider that points to a malicious server... it *looks* like iDisk, but has apps for download that hose your system in wonderful little ways.) For those of us who have a little Terminal experience, it's a no brainer (once the server is set up, of course). A hack, but a no brainer hack. It isn't like iDisk uses a proprietary system that isn't documented anywhere... heck, Apple ships the ability to create an iDisk server *with every Mac*. What was that about no hooks? (I said they provide hooks, not obvious GUI preferences for novice users to find immediately.)



<hr></blockquote>

As you said, it's a fairly simple hack and also subject to worm abuse. I'm almost surprised that Apple just didn't put something into their DNS lookup code that would ignore an idisk.com or mac.com address in the /etc/hosts file. Perhaps in 10.2.4 ... If we think the revenue stream is that valuable to them, they will do this at some point.

[quote]



The iDVD not burning to external drives is one I originally didn't agree with, but... SuperDrives are a MAJOR selling point of Apple's higher end hardware, and are therefore something people will buy a whole computer to get. Since the only legal way you can get iDVD is through purchasing a Mac with a SuperDrive, think of this as an anti-piracy feature. If you have iDVD, and no SuperDrive, you stole the app, and shouldn't be using it anyway.

<hr></blockquote>



Not actually. iDVD was provided with every copy of Jaguar. To the best of my knowledge, it just doesn't install by default if you don't have a SuperDrive. Or, are you saying that Apple is selling stolen goods?

Also, Apple is SERIOUSLY missing the boat about disabling iDVD. The main people affected are the following: G3 owners and laptop owners. I think Apple could sell a lot more hardware if they let G3 owners use the software. As soon as the realize how slow it is and how fast it could be, I think a lot of people might start saving pennies for new hardware. For laptop owners, who wants to carry an external DVD writer with them? Let them start out using external drives and when they see how much they use it, they would also probably consider getting new hardware.

[quote]



This may change with iLife, providing iDVD for $49, but I doubt it, in which case I'll reconsider my position on it.

<hr></blockquote>

If we believe that Apple's goal is to sell hardware, it's doubtful that it would change. Getting $50 for software is peanuts compared to what they get for hardware sales. I suspect that they will release something like DVD Studio Express for $400 and that will give them the profit margin that they desire.

[ 01-09-2003: Message edited by: Brian Paulsen ]

[ 01-09-2003: Message edited by: Brian Paulsen ]

ghost_user_name · January 9, 2003 11:14AM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Paulsen:

iDVD was provided with every copy of Jaguar.<hr></blockquote>Wrong. Examine the packge contents on the Jag CDs with Pacifist -- iDVD is nowhere to be found. Perhaps you are confusing this with the Restore CDs that come with SuperDrive-equipped Macs, no?

brian paulsen · January 9, 2003 11:48AM

[quote]Originally posted by Brad:

Wrong. Examine the packge contents on the Jag CDs with Pacifist -- iDVD is nowhere to be found. Perhaps you are confusing this with the Restore CDs that come with SuperDrive-equipped Macs, no?<hr></blockquote>

Hmm, possibly. Although, then again, perhaps I shouldn't believe everything I read on the board as I heard that it did come with Jaguar. I haven't actually check it out since I don't have a SuperDrive on my Powerbook, and hence, have no use for the software. Also, my disk space is relatively tight, so even if it was on the CD, I wouldn't install it.

Disk space is tight due to all these videos that I'm waiting to burn to DVD. Sigh... Oh well, soon my Formac Devideon will be here.

buonrotto · January 9, 2003 12:34PM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Paulsen:

Ok, perhaps I'm missing something basic then or else all of you don't mind paying Apple $99 for basic service.<hr></blockquote>

Well, for starters, I thought we were talking about the iApps and exclusionary tactics, not the scope or features of the .Mac services. I won't argue that .Mac can be trumped by anyone industrious enough to replace them. But is that the point of this thread?

brian paulsen · January 9, 2003 12:39PM

[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:



Well, for starters, I thought we were talking about the iApps and exclusionary tactics, not the scope or features of the .Mac services. I won't argue that .Mac can be trumped by anyone industrious enough to replace them. But is that the point of this thread?<hr></blockquote>

True, we did mention how Apple prevented people from using external drives with iDVD. Other people focussed on the iDisk comments. And... there is iDisk integration within many of the iApps. For example, what if I want to publish my iPhotos to my own webDAV server - it's so much easier if I can just define my webDAV server as my iDisk. Similarly for iCal, iSync, etc.

This is why Apple isn't becoming MS with the iApps...

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