IDC forecasts 'challenging' year for tablets as Apple's iPad continues to lead

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  • Reply 81 of 105
    alfiejralfiejr Posts: 1,524member
    ws11 wrote: »
    It would make sense to discuss 64-bit in context.  It really depends on the application whether or not that will even make a difference.  The Nexus 4 launched with hardware that supported OpenGL ES 3.0 (a major mobile API) a year before Apple added support in the A7 SoC, but the real world applications are all that really matter.

    As for 64-bit Android, Intel already launched a 64-bit kernel that will be coming in Bay Trail Android devices.  ASUS has a $149 64-bit Android tablet launching soon in the 7" segment.  We'll have to see if there is any real world advantages when the device hits the market.

    As for real world usage of both operating systems, iOS has a considerable app advantage in the tablet segment.  The only catch is, a new A7 iOS device starts at $399 and up. 

    64 bit chips do not = 64 bit Android. and why assume Google will ever produce a full 64 bit version of the Android OS and in-house apps as Apple has already achieved? Google is aiming for the broadest possible Android distribution with a lowest common denominator hardware and cost requirement for OEM's and telcos, with less fragmentation if possible. a new Android branch of 64 bit high end products serves none of those goals. and as you note the real value of 64 bit depends on apps being designed to take advantage of it, such as Apple has done with its processor intensive imaging apps. Google's core apps and ad services just don't need that. we'll see if third party iOS developers upgrade many apps to 64 bit - the graphics heavy games at least - but we know Android developers are more interested in the ads, etc. as evidenced by the small number of true Android tablet apps. if it's not even worth the trouble to upgrade Android phone apps to tablet size, why would any bother with 64 bit too?

    i'll believe in 64 bit Android when i see it.
  • Reply 82 of 105
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    alfiejr wrote: »
    64 bit chips do not = 64 bit Android. and why assume Google will ever produce a full 64 bit version of the Android OS and in-house apps as Apple has already achieved? Google is aiming for the broadest possible Android distribution with a lowest common denominator hardware and cost requirement for OEM's and telcos, with less fragmentation if possible. a new Android branch of 64 bit high end products serves none of those goals. and as you note the real value of 64 bit depends on apps being designed to take advantage of it, such as Apple has done with its processor intensive imaging apps. Google's core apps and ad services just don't need that. we'll see if third party iOS developers upgrade many apps to 64 bit - the graphics heavy games at least - but we know Android developers are more interested in the ads, etc. as evidenced by the small number of true Android tablet apps. if it's not even worth the trouble to upgrade Android phone apps to tablet size, why would any bother with 64 bit too?

    i'll believe in 64 bit Android when i see it.

    Even after there is a 64-bit version of Android running on a consumer device with a 64-Bit ARM processor I wonder what that means for the apps. With iOS the OS, all the default apps and services on top, and a great number of App Store apps are already 64-bit natives. All other things being equal the new AArch64 ISA is better for apps built with Obj-C, but is it better for Java apps in the same way? How long will before Java and their Play apps gets updated? Will Google make the transition as smooth or will it be something disjointed the way MS did with their Windows transition to 64-bit?
  • Reply 83 of 105
    tribalogicaltribalogical Posts: 1,182member
    "Shipments............."

    Actual sell through? Margins? Profits? You know, the stuff that actually matter and make a "market"?

    "Shipments............"

    Oh yeah, right.... it's IDC...
  • Reply 84 of 105
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,176member
    solipsismx wrote: »
    Even after there is a 64-bit version of Android running on a consumer device with a 64-Bit ARM processor I wonder what that means for the apps. With iOS the OS, all the default apps and services on top, and a great number of App Store apps are already 64-bit natives. All other things being equal the new AArch64 ISA is better for apps built with Obj-C, but is it better for Java apps in the same way? How long will before Java and their Play apps gets updated? Will Google make the transition as smooth or will it be something disjointed the way MS did with their Windows transition to 64-bit?

    Honest question Soli: Has 64-bit improved your iPhone user experience yet, and if so in what way? I haven't seen much in the way of comments about real-world differences.
  • Reply 85 of 105
    alfiejralfiejr Posts: 1,524member
    solipsismx wrote: »
    Even after there is a 64-bit version of Android running on a consumer device with a 64-Bit ARM processor I wonder what that means for the apps. With iOS the OS, all the default apps and services on top, and a great number of App Store apps are already 64-bit natives. All other things being equal the new AArch64 ISA is better for apps built with Obj-C, but is it better for Java apps in the same way? How long will before Java and their Play apps gets updated? Will Google make the transition as smooth or will it be something disjointed the way MS did with their Windows transition to 64-bit?

    exactly. which is why we may never see 64 bit Android OS. but Chrome OS ... ah yes. many think Google's future is based on Chrome, not Android.
  • Reply 86 of 105
    alfiejralfiejr Posts: 1,524member
    gatorguy wrote: »
    Honest question Soli: Has 64-bit improved your iPhone user experience yet, and if so in what way? I haven't seen much in the way of comments about real-world differences.

    you don't "see" that 64 bit power making Toch ID work so smoothly or the Camera app producing excellent pix for us photo dummies, but it's there just the same.
  • Reply 87 of 105
    ws11ws11 Posts: 159member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Alfiejr View Post





    64 bit chips do not = 64 bit Android. and why assume Google will ever produce a full 64 bit version of the Android OS and in-house apps as Apple has already achieved? Google is aiming for the broadest possible Android distribution with a lowest common denominator hardware and cost requirement for OEM's and telcos, with less fragmentation if possible. a new Android branch of 64 bit high end products serves none of those goals. and as you note the real value of 64 bit depends on apps being designed to take advantage of it, such as Apple has done with its processor intensive imaging apps. Google's core apps and ad services just don't need that. we'll see if third party iOS developers upgrade many apps to 64 bit - the graphics heavy games at least - but we know Android developers are more interested in the ads, etc. as evidenced by the small number of true Android tablet apps. if it's not even worth the trouble to upgrade Android phone apps to tablet size, why would any bother with 64 bit too?



    i'll believe in 64 bit Android when i see it.

     

    Intel already made a 64-bit kernel for Android 4.4 KitKat (Link).

     

    As for 64-bit and Android, it's only natural progression.  Upcoming low end SoC's will support 64-bit, these include Qualcomm's Snapdragon 410 and MediaTek's MT6732.  Both of those SoCs will be using quad Cortex A53 (ARMv8 64) cores.  There is also Intel's SoFIA which will be based off of Silvermont (x86-64).  Whether or not any of these mobile devices will fully utilize 64-bit has yet to be seen, but the technology will be there, even at the bottom line.

  • Reply 88 of 105
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    gatorguy wrote: »
    Honest question Soli: Has 64-bit improved your iPhone user experience yet, and if so in what way? I haven't seen much in the way of comments about real-world differences.

    Absolutely, but in the same a few hundred extra MHz might improve an experience or a better H.264 decoder might reduce power consumption for video playback by 10%, in that you may not notice it until it's no longer there.

    I did side-by-side tests from my iPhone 5 and the 5S. Booting up the 5S was a little faster but that's only done as a baseline since you really only should be booting your phone after an update. The app launches I tried (not so much with large games) were faster but it was a difference that I wouldn't have noticed them if not for the side-by-side comparison. The areas where I saw the most performance gain was with the app closing but this can also be seen within certain apps. This is one area where the new ISA really shines for Obj-C and where you can easily perceive the difference without a side-by-side comparison. So why do you care about this? It allows other operations to take place sooner and have more resources available and uses less power.

    Mike Ash explains it better than I ever could but the benefits are definitely real.

    "In short, the improvements to Apple's runtime make it so that object allocation in 64-bit mode costs only 40-50% of what it does in 32-bit mode. If your app creates and destroys a lot of objects, that's a big deal."

    "Apple took advantage of the transition to make some changes of their own. The biggest change is an inline retain count, which eliminates the need to perform a costly hash table lookup for retain and release operations in the common case. Since those operations are so common in most Objective-C code, this is a big win. Per-object resource cleanup flags make object deallocation quite a bit faster in certain cases. All in all, the cost of creating and destroying an object is roughly cut in half. Tagged pointers also make for a nice performance win as well as reduced memory use."
  • Reply 89 of 105
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    alfiejr wrote: »
    you don't "see" that 64 bit power making Toch ID work so smoothly or the Camera app producing excellent pix for us photo dummies, but it's there just the same.

    I've speculated that 64-bit was a requirement for Touch ID to work at all but I have no method to test that hypothesis or any evidence thus far.
  • Reply 90 of 105
    alfiejralfiejr Posts: 1,524member
    ws11 wrote: »
    Intel already made a 64-bit kernel for Android 4.4 KitKat (Link).

    As for 64-bit and Android, it's only natural progression.  Upcoming low end SoC's will support 64-bit, these include Qualcomm's Snapdragon 410 and MediaTek's MT6732.  Both of those SoCs will be using quad Cortex A53 (ARMv8 64) cores.  There is also Intel's SoFIA which will be based off of Silvermont (x86-64).  Whether or not any of these mobile devices will fully utilize 64-bit has yet to be seen, but the technology will be there, even at the bottom line.

    chips do not = business strategy. there is no "natural progession" in markets manipulation. Google's agenda is based on other factors, not chips.
  • Reply 91 of 105
    alfiejralfiejr Posts: 1,524member
    solipsismx wrote: »
    I've speculated that 64-bit was a requirement for Touch ID to work at all but I have no method to test that hypothesis or any evidence thus far.

    well we know 32 bit is good enuff for Samsung's second rate version. we'll see if they can improve it with that constraint.
  • Reply 92 of 105
    ws11ws11 Posts: 159member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Alfiejr View Post





    chips do not = business strategy. there is no "natural progession" in markets manipulation. Google's agenda is based on other factors, not chips.

    The 64-bit kernel is already there and the hardware is there.  Now it's up to the developers.  If Google didn't care about natural progression they wouldn't have had OpenGL ES 3.0 support added to Android before iOS, and one of the largest mobile game engines (Unity) wouldn't have added OpenGL ES 3.0 support to Android, again, before iOS. 

  • Reply 93 of 105
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,176member
    solipsismx wrote: »
    So why do you care about this? It allows other operations to take place sooner and have more resources available and uses less power.

    Thanks for taking the time Soli. I couldn't think of anyone I'd trust more for a straight answer so that's why I put it to you.

    I only wondered if the difference was obvious between 32 and 64-bit or more subtle. I personally had my doubts that it made a noticable difference with the most commonly used smartphone features, so I was curious if commonly used video play, productivity apps, gaming had yet gained any significant improvements over last years 32-bit platform. You've seen some 64-bit benefits to those kinda things on your iPhone and that's all I was wondering.
  • Reply 94 of 105
    alfiejralfiejr Posts: 1,524member
    ws11 wrote: »
    The 64-bit kernel is already there and the hardware is there.  Now it's up to the developers.  If Google didn't care about natural progression they wouldn't have had OpenGL ES 3.0 support added to Android before iOS, and one of the largest mobile game engines (Unity) wouldn't have added OpenGL ES 3.0 support to Android, again, before iOS. 

    Open GL Is about games. you can expect all platforms to routinely update to its new generations in cycle since games are big money makers for all. just like they update to the latest bluetooth and wifi standards in cycle - high end hardware first. those are cross platform standards, and yes, they "progress". but 64 bit is not, you got an apples and oranges argument. Android doesn't need 64 bit to achieve Google's business goals, except bragging rights if that matters. sure, Intel would love to sell premium 64 bit chips - that fits its business goals. but what Android OEM's want to pay extra for them and lose even more money in their race to the market bottom? Only Samsung can afford to, and just for hype vs. Apple. And with Android's dominant '"freemium" model app developers don't care either. they don't compete on the performance power of their apps.

    i'll believe it when i see it.
  • Reply 95 of 105
    os2babaos2baba Posts: 262member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post





    The 8" and 10" iPads beat all other tablets. Just look at their OS and ecosystem for proof of that.

     

    I think you need to spend some time with the Nexus 7 and Nexus 10 before you make that statement.  I have with both the iPad as well as the Nexuses and I hardly ever reach for the 10" iPad.  The iPad mini never.

  • Reply 96 of 105
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    os2baba wrote: »
    I think you need to spend some time with the Nexus 7 and Nexus 10 before you make that statement.  I have with both the iPad as well as the Nexuses and I hardly ever reach for the 10" iPad.  The iPad mini never.

    Nexus 7 is way too small to consider, 16:10 is worse than 4:3 for a tablet, and neither has an OS or ecosystem that makes the user experience even close to being compared to the App Store..
  • Reply 97 of 105
    os2babaos2baba Posts: 262member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Benjamin Frost View Post

     

    The App Store has 400,000 apps specifically tailored to the iPad. The Google Play Store has 1,000. There's no competition going on there; it's a slam dunk for Apple.


     

    Unlike iPhone apps (using raster scaling), most Android apps use dynamic scaling and dynamic layouts.  So phone apps don't look as awful as iPhone apps do (did).  Having said that, it doesn't mean that the apps are optimized for the extra real estate.  But almost all the apps I use are - Flipboard, firefox, chrome, maps, gmail, play music, ES File Explorer, real calc plus, Type Machine, netflix, swiftkey etc.  There are of course a few that could do with a tablet version like keypass.  But on the whole, I can't say I have felt a lack of tablet optimized apps.  A couple of years ago maybe.  Not anymore.  Most apps post 4.0 are using fragments and they lend themselves to be tablet optimized rather easily.

  • Reply 98 of 105
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    os2baba wrote: »
    Unlike iPhone apps (using raster scaling), most Android apps use dynamic scaling and dynamic layouts.  So phone apps don't look as awful as iPhone apps do (did).

    iOS-based devices are better looking and use less power because Apple actually has standards and knows what displays are being used.
  • Reply 99 of 105
    hill60hill60 Posts: 6,992member
    os2baba wrote: »
    I think you need to spend some time with the Nexus 7 and Nexus 10 before you make that statement.  I have with both the iPad as well as the Nexuses and I hardly ever reach for the 10" iPad.  The iPad mini never.

    Obviously you only need a basic consumption device, when you need to do some real work, you'll reach for an iPad.

    Signed

    Enterprise.
  • Reply 100 of 105
    os2babaos2baba Posts: 262member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by hill60 View Post





    Obviously you only need a basic consumption device, when you need to do some real work, you'll reach for an iPad.



    Signed



    Enterprise.

     

    That's certainly true.  I mostly use my tablets as consumption devices.  When I want to do real work, I use my PC.  With a 27" monitor, multiple windows, IBM Model M keyboard, 50 Mbps wired network, there is no substitute and the PC will beat a tablet by a mile for pretty much every task.  Which is why I'm very surprised by the number of people who use their mobile devices for e-commerce in the west.  I can understand this happening in the developing world since the phone is probably the only computing devices for many.  The only time I use my phone is when I'm not in the office and not at home.  I'm especially surprised to see people using their tablets and phones for purchases during Thanksgiving and Christmas.  A large screen and quick flipping between tabs and multiple browser windows and my keyboard are absolutely essential.  In fact, last thanksgiving I was at Best Buy and heard about an LED TV with a better configuration at Frys than the one I was getting at Best Buy.  I was in the process of checking it out and ordering it from my phone when a friend called me from home to inform me.  I told him to buy one for me since he was ordering one for himself.  I was midway through the process.  He started from scratch. He finished, before I got to it.  By the time I was checking out the cart, they were out of it.  It turned out to be a better TV and the only reason I'm looking at it every night is because my friend managed to get it for me.

     

    I used my iPad mostly as a consumption device as well.  So out of curiosity, what real work do you do on your iPad?

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