15yr Old Darwin Hacker Denied! Any thoughts?

onlookeronlooker
Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
I didn't bring a link (I may go get one), but you all have probably been reading about this kid for the past few days just like me.



{edit} this is a good one <a href="http://www.wired.com/news/school/0,1383,51343,00.html"; target="_blank">Wired Article</a>



Any Thought's?



[ 03-27-2002: Message edited by: onlooker ]</p>

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 18
    alcimedesalcimedes Posts: 5,486member
    well, i'm sure this has been said before, but Apple really can't do much about this. they can't afford to give this stuff/access to people who can't be held accountable by the law.



    it's too bad, but a sign of the times i guess.
  • Reply 2 of 18
    onlookeronlooker Posts: 5,252member
    Ok, but what if it was you?



    [Edit] I'll elaborate. I know how I feel about Apple, and programming.

    If something like this happened, There goes all your dreams. It must feel like having your heart removed with a spoon, or having Lorena Bobbit for a wife. Ouch!



    [ 03-27-2002: Message edited by: onlooker ]</p>
  • Reply 3 of 18
    torifiletorifile Posts: 4,024member
    Well, it sucks, but it's a fact of life. I didn't read that particular article, but I read another one that was linked from MacNN. He was upset because apple revoked his online adc membership. He has no right to be upset. All this talk about being of age to enter into a legally binding contract and how he thinks he's mature enough to do it is irrelevant b/c the fact is, he is not mature enough to enter one. Why? Because he violated the terms of the agreement from the get-go. He said he agreed that he was over 18. He isn't. If he's willing to lie about that, what else is he willing to lie about? Actions speak louder than words and he made a statement that he doesn't care what Apple has to say, because he's going to do what he wants. Apple has a right to protect themselves, whether he likes it or not. Their only recourse was to suspend his account. He actually should be sued because he violated the contract, but he can't be b/c he's not 18. Think that's a little harsh? What if he were an employee of some competing company and wanted access to Apple IP? Both would be violations of the agreement.



    Another thing was that he was presented with options to contribute, but he chose not to use those options because they were too time-consuming. He's obviously bright and will be an asset to the community, but he needs to get over himself and work within the system. He had the option to contribute and he chose not to. Plain and simple. He was denied nothing.
  • Reply 4 of 18
    mac gurumac guru Posts: 367member
    Ditto



    Too young, has no room to complain... come back in 3 years.



    Mac Guru
  • Reply 5 of 18
    gorgonzolagorgonzola Posts: 185member
    They could have always made an exception in his case and allowed him to contribute normally via a parental waiver. I'm no lawyer, but it seems like that would be the obvious solution to the issue...
  • Reply 6 of 18
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    There are times when following the letter of the law (or contract) isn't necessarily the best option.



    This kid is the one who chased down the PPP/serial bug that caused OS X to hang for long periods - the one that's given so many people so much trouble, the one that Apple couldn't find and couldn't resolve for months. He's also a major and valued contributor to OmniGroup's OS X Dev list (where I first heard about this fiasco). Now, given that: should he or should he not get his ADC account back? Legal CYA aside, I think he's more than demonstrated his perseverance and good faith.



    If Apple insists on CYA (I can't blame them if they do), they can whip up another kind of Student Developer license that requires the consent of a parent or guardian, and use that. Otherwise they're going to get a lot of bad PR, lose a lot of goodwill, and alienate a lot of eager developers and (potential) lifetime Apple customers with lots and lots of free time to fix things.



    [ 03-27-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
  • Reply 7 of 18
    bodhibodhi Posts: 1,424member
    Amorph -



    I agree.
  • Reply 8 of 18
    applenutapplenut Posts: 5,768member
    [quote]Originally posted by torifile:

    <strong>Well, it sucks, but it's a fact of life. I didn't read that particular article, but I read another one that was linked from MacNN. He was upset because apple revoked his online adc membership. He has no right to be upset. All this talk about being of age to enter into a legally binding contract and how he thinks he's mature enough to do it is irrelevant b/c the fact is, he is not mature enough to enter one. Why? Because he violated the terms of the agreement from the get-go. He said he agreed that he was over 18. He isn't. If he's willing to lie about that, what else is he willing to lie about? Actions speak louder than words and he made a statement that he doesn't care what Apple has to say, because he's going to do what he wants. Apple has a right to protect themselves, whether he likes it or not. Their only recourse was to suspend his account. He actually should be sued because he violated the contract, but he can't be b/c he's not 18. Think that's a little harsh? What if he were an employee of some competing company and wanted access to Apple IP? Both would be violations of the agreement.



    Another thing was that he was presented with options to contribute, but he chose not to use those options because they were too time-consuming. He's obviously bright and will be an asset to the community, but he needs to get over himself and work within the system. He had the option to contribute and he chose not to. Plain and simple. He was denied nothing.</strong><hr></blockquote>





    no where in the ADC registration process do they require age verification or even mention it. the only membership they do that for is the student membership. I easily signed up for and held an ADC Select membership for 2 years.



    Apple has horrible developer realtions. everyone complaisn about it and its ridiculous. the price for memberships is ridicilous and the amount of information they give you after paying that much is ridiculous. there is no reason a high school version of the student developer connection could not be implemented. Nor is there any need for a high school student to sign an NDA. The NDA is the problem nothing else. All Apple had to do was deny pre-release software and seeding privelages to the kid and there would have been no problems. But they chose to be assholes and revoke his membership and not offer a refund. Nice company, you fix their bugs and then they then they kick your ass out of the group and steal your money

    <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
  • Reply 9 of 18
    graphitemangraphiteman Posts: 428member
    [quote]Originally posted by applenut:

    <strong>



    no where in the ADC registration process do they require age verification or even mention it. the only membership they do that for is the student membership. I easily signed up for and held an ADC Select membership for 2 years.



    Apple has horrible developer realtions. everyone complaisn about it and its ridiculous. the price for memberships is ridicilous and the amount of information they give you after paying that much is ridiculous. there is no reason a high school version of the student developer connection could not be implemented. Nor is there any need for a high school student to sign an NDA. The NDA is the problem nothing else. All Apple had to do was deny pre-release software and seeding privelages to the kid and there would have been no problems. But they chose to be assholes and revoke his membership and not offer a refund. Nice company, you fix their bugs and then they then they kick your ass out of the group and steal your money

    <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>



    applenut's right. Nowhere in the legal agreement does it state that you have to be over 18 to join.



    I'm 15, and I've had an online membership for about a year (I don't have the money to get a select membership, and I don't qualify for a Student membership because of the High School factor).



    There's no excuse for not having a High School Student membership.
  • Reply 10 of 18
    torifiletorifile Posts: 4,024member
    [quote]Originally posted by graphiteman:

    <strong>



    There's no excuse for not having a High School Student membership.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Except that they might not want people that young. Jeez, kids are entitled these days.
  • Reply 11 of 18
    i like macsi like macs Posts: 71member
    im not even half way through high school, and I have an adc membership. i even write some apps with the dev tools



    [ 03-28-2002: Message edited by: I like Macs ]</p>
  • Reply 12 of 18
    onlookeronlooker Posts: 5,252member
    Amorph. Great toughts. I'm almost compelled to copy that responce to



    <a href="http://www.apple.com/macosx/feedback/"; target="_blank">http://www.apple.com/macosx/feedback/</a>;



    [ 03-27-2002: Message edited by: onlooker ]</p>
  • Reply 13 of 18
    applenutapplenut Posts: 5,768member
    [quote]Originally posted by torifile:

    <strong>



    Except that they might not want people that young. Jeez, kids are entitled these days. </strong><hr></blockquote>



    and why not. don't roll yours eyes at smething like that. Does Apple not want to grow their developer base? they need to attract the teenagers and future developers. It's inexcusable.
  • Reply 14 of 18
    torifiletorifile Posts: 4,024member
    You know, I'm beginning to agree that Apple should allow kids under 18 to be ADC members, but I have to wonder if the cost associated with it (legal and logistical) are worth it. How many prodigies are out there that Apple might alienate? How much trouble could Apple be in if they allow kids to work for free after getting a parent's 'consent' (we all know how easy it is to forge something like that on the web)? Would Apple be liable for something like that? Maybe it's just a cost/benefit thing. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
  • Reply 15 of 18
    analogue bubblebathanalogue bubblebath Posts: 129member
    If Apple does not want kids under 18 to join the ADC program, then they should make that clear in the ADC application process. It probably isn't the ideal solution, but at least it would avoid potential PR blunders.
  • Reply 16 of 18
    revsrevs Posts: 93member
    The ADC never used to even mention age requirements. I joined a while back when I was 17, i was invited to a Dev conference thing, so decided I should check to see if you needed to be 18, I sent them an email and got one back saying they had forwarded the thing to Curpentino and later changed the Agreement to include the over 18's rule - seems they forgot to include it at first. Then they disabled my account - got another one now that i'm 18 anyway....
  • Reply 17 of 18
    norfanorfa Posts: 171member
    What's sad about this? I f you look at the math guys, he guys who make up new theorems and such, they are all very young. In terms of ability to innovate, it would seem that it's pretty much over by the time you're 30. Non disclosure crap aside, if the kids are good, I'd be inclined to gamble. The potential benefis could be enormous, and for those of us who get so tired of sloppy code that runs slow because it's poorly concieved, these kids could be our only hope.
  • Reply 18 of 18
    the milkmanthe milkman Posts: 94member
    [quote]Originally posted by Amorph:

    <strong>If Apple insists on CYA (I can't blame them if they do), they can whip up another kind of Student Developer license that requires the consent of a parent or guardian, and use that.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Amen.



    There are a ton of under 18 programmers that can code with the best of them.

    Damn kids with their high energy levels.....
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