Here's a poser: If the new PM's will be so fast, how fast will everything else be?
I don't want to be a downer, but it seems to me that these predictions of 1.5+ GHz cpu's present a problem:
If, say, the Powermac tops out around 1.5 GHz by August (as the winds currently blow), then how fast will the new iMac be?
Scenario 1: iMacs will be REALLY fast, and top out above 1.2 GHz. Apple will effectively say "screw the Powermac" for a month or so. Typically, iMac's processor is only a few MHz off the top-rated proc in the Powermac. If the top PM proc is 1.5 GHz or so, then that puts the iMac where? 1.2 GHz? Would they really put out a superfast iMac and just let the PM look weak until the PM announcement?
Scenario 2: iMacs will stay roughly in the same range they are now, maybe with a minor speed bump up to 1 GHz max. If the new Powermacs come out in August at 1.5 GHz or more, then everyone will know that faster G4's are available, and won't buy iMacs until the speed increases.
Since both scenarios put Apple's products in such strange relationships to each other, I think there are only 2 logical answers to this is (one bad, one good):
1 - BAD) There aren't significantly faster procs waiting in the wings. Maybe a few hundred MHz, but not much more.
For what it's worth, I'm happy with the processor speed, and am much more concerned with the bandwidth issues. However, I know that 'only' a 1.2 GHz proc will infuriate many people, so I'm trying to figure it all out.
2 - GOOD) Apple will simultaneously offer fast (1.2 GHz-ish) iMacs and Powermacs (1.5 GHz-ish) at the Keynote. This solves the problem of having a skewed relationship between the desktop lines. (Of course, suddenly the portables look slow.....but one thing at a time). Personally, I think this is unlikely, but it is at least logical.
ting5
[ 07-10-2002: Message edited by: Yet Another Registration ]</p>
If, say, the Powermac tops out around 1.5 GHz by August (as the winds currently blow), then how fast will the new iMac be?
Scenario 1: iMacs will be REALLY fast, and top out above 1.2 GHz. Apple will effectively say "screw the Powermac" for a month or so. Typically, iMac's processor is only a few MHz off the top-rated proc in the Powermac. If the top PM proc is 1.5 GHz or so, then that puts the iMac where? 1.2 GHz? Would they really put out a superfast iMac and just let the PM look weak until the PM announcement?
Scenario 2: iMacs will stay roughly in the same range they are now, maybe with a minor speed bump up to 1 GHz max. If the new Powermacs come out in August at 1.5 GHz or more, then everyone will know that faster G4's are available, and won't buy iMacs until the speed increases.
Since both scenarios put Apple's products in such strange relationships to each other, I think there are only 2 logical answers to this is (one bad, one good):
1 - BAD) There aren't significantly faster procs waiting in the wings. Maybe a few hundred MHz, but not much more.
For what it's worth, I'm happy with the processor speed, and am much more concerned with the bandwidth issues. However, I know that 'only' a 1.2 GHz proc will infuriate many people, so I'm trying to figure it all out.
2 - GOOD) Apple will simultaneously offer fast (1.2 GHz-ish) iMacs and Powermacs (1.5 GHz-ish) at the Keynote. This solves the problem of having a skewed relationship between the desktop lines. (Of course, suddenly the portables look slow.....but one thing at a time). Personally, I think this is unlikely, but it is at least logical.
ting5
[ 07-10-2002: Message edited by: Yet Another Registration ]</p>
Comments
I'd like to see the LCD imacs use the DDR/new bus etc.
I'd like to see them:
- 900ish 2mx 15 inch screen and cheap,
- 1 gig geforce 4 mx and 17 inch screen combi drive,
- 1.2 G4, 17 inch and Superdrive with Geforce 4 mx.
Steep price drop for low end and return to former price point for middle iMac LCD models. The top iMac can stay or go up slightly.
This would show an aggressive attempt by Apple to put their money where their mouth is regarding their 'Switch' campaign. Face it, the LCD iMac is Apple's best shot at get near that 10%. If they're going after PC users then they're going to have to get tough talking, cut the margins, get aggressive and improve their manufacturing process and increase their updates to said line. They've got to take the fight to the users Dell pick up even in a PC saturated market!
'power'Macs.
IF they have an August late Seybold 'power'Mac announcement...this makes me suspect they may be making sure of 1.5 G4 yields. Enough to offer a:
- dual 1.5 gig top end. Include Geforce 4 titanium as standard.
- dual 1.2 gig mid. Include Geforce 4 Titanium.
- Single 1.2 lower end. Ati 7500.
DDR. Improved Bus. Significant price drop on low end and middle towers. They are no where near close enough for entry level expandable Mac Towers.
I think given the current problems...the gnashing, wailing, and eyes to the falling sky...and the insinuations of discontent in the press...this is the way for the G4 'power'Macs to bow out until the next fifth gen' cpu...turns up next April?
Lemon Bon Bon
[ 07-10-2002: Message edited by: Lemon Bon Bon ]</p>
<strong>This would show an aggressive attempt by Apple to put their money where their mouth is regarding their 'Switch' campaign. Face it, the LCD iMac is Apple's best shot at get near that 10%.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Really? The iBook and the TiBook would be strong contenders for that crown.
In other words, Apple won't bet the Switch campaign on one model, and especially not a desktop. With their laptop lines selling briskly - and laptops selling briskly in general, while desktop sales drop across the board - I think Apple would do well to emphasize those as much as they emphasize anything else.
More on topic, that's a tough question. Apple certainly has let one line overlap another (e.g. the original iBook SE) for a while. But it won't really help them get rid of the channel inventory they apparently have to deal with.
[ 07-10-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
Face it, the LCD iMac is Apple's best shot at get near that 10%. <hr></blockquote>
I think the iBook is actually the key. Desktops are so 20th Century. But otherwise I agree with the outlines of what you say.
And the second part of the Topic Title (everything else):
Powerbooks - Historically, whatever the iMac has the Powerbooks get, at least proc speed-wise. I'd be willing to bet you that if you plotted proc speeds of iMac vs Pbook, you'd get a roughly matching line. So, any significantly faster iMac means a Pbook of similar speed is in the wings. If Powermac goes to ~1.5 GHz (which I doubt, but most people seem to agree will happen this summer) and iMac goes to ~1.2 GHz, then TiBook won't be far behind.
iBooks - have usually lagged behind iMac proc speedwise. Here, Apple would have a choice, stick with the 750FX at a speed lower to or equal to iMAc, or go to G4 with a lower speed, maybe getting the old TiBook chips (~700-800 MHz G4). Again, this is supposing that Motorola has a G4 waiting in the wings up to 1.5 GHz.
ting5
I haven't ignored the impact of the ibook. It's just in another thread
It's Apple's consumer line that has saved their bacon in recent years...and gain the most critical and consumer attention!
Both the LCD iMac and iBook are stunning examples of design. (In my opinion...the iBook trumped the Powerbook's design when I thought it couldn't be topped.) They are also Macs that brought Mac pricing into the real world of pricing. You can now get several different kind of Macs, desktop and laptop for under a grand inc VAT. Now, compared to where we where before original iMac in the UK...we're certainly on the right road re: pricing. But I still think Apple can go further if they are serious about 'Switching' PC users on.
Laptop sales are increasing and are brisk but are even combined iBook and Powerbook sales beating sales of the desktop iMacs? (Even at the new iBook's peak/launch they didn't top original CRT iMac sales...) And when Apple gets the LCD iMac's price and specs right then I think the it and not the lap tops that will be leading the charge.
The ibook is outselling the Powerbook.
The LCD iMac is outselling 'power'Macs.
But I'll comprise here. The LCD iMac is the PC 'Switch' desktop and the iBook is unquestionably the 'Switch' laptop. You're right the ibook is adored. A lot of women seem to like. But hey, I like it too
You could say that the consumer range is leading Apple's charge to the 10% Steve Jobs market share target.
With the Pro' line? It's the Powerbook that is proudly holding up the dignity of the 'power' line.
It seems also...that in the 'Switch' stories...it's the ibook and iMac that seem to get mentioned most...
My wife has an ibook. Something about it captured her (a computer phobic to be sure...) imagination...and similarly...it is the desktop LCD iMac that is capturing mine rather than the currently stagnating 'power'Mac line.
Lemon Bon Bon
so obviously apple aren't too concerned with having a generation gap between their product lines.. and what better way to do it than introduce the ........ G5 at macworld..
so we'd have powermac G5's - much faster than the rest of the product line.. and whats wrong with that? they ARE the be all and end all of apple's offerings..
the powerbook would keep the G4 chip for a while yet, but would be free to scale to the full capacity of the chip, without stepping on big brothers toes.. the powerbook would most likely be the next machine to go G5..
the imac would probably follow along at the same pace as the powerbook but would more than likely have to wait a little while longer before getting the G5 - its only just gone G4..
which leaves the ibook.. "struggling" (which wouldn't stop me buying one) away on a G3.. if the G5 was released at MWNY, how would apple feel about still having a G3 in their line up? i get the impression that it would be updated to the G4 sooner rather than later if such a scenario were to arise..
the crt imac is all but dead, the emac confirmed that.. and the ibook is really the only "weakness" in a product line boasting a G5 top line.. so i would expect that the chip upgrades would go something like this...
1) ibook G3 ---> G4 - possibly this year or early next..
2) powerbook G4 ---> - G5 probably this time next year ie MWNY..
3) imac G4 ---> - G5 probably not until 2004 (??)
4) emac G4 ---> G5 - a few months before the G6 is thrown in to the powermacs..
Stop it, I think I'm getting weak in the knees...
/leaves to clear out credit cards
Absolutely, (perhaps we were twins in another life?) CONSUMER SALES = MARKET SHARE period, end of story. That's just natural for any company, whatever you happen to sell. There are more 'not-so-rich' people in the world than there are 'working-rich' people than there are again, 'idle-rich'... The further up the ladder you go in price/luxury the smaller your market gets. On the high-end, you make money on margins, on the low end you make money on volume. A competitive (truly WOW!) iMac and iBook, with a good price and spec is what can increase market share. You don't need to worry about cannibalizing pro sales. The only thing you get from holding one line below the other is poor sales across both lines.
People won't move from an overpriced pro spec to an underspec'd consumer price (though iMac is closer to prosumer in price) or vice versa. They'll use what they've got, or switch entirely. Especially for consumers, without a huge software investment, a mac-to-PC switch is as easy as a PC-to-mac switch. Apple needs to accept this: We're not dealing with a question of which mac to buy? We're dealing with the question of whether to buy mac at all? Better to sell that consumer machine than not sell anything.
Not wanting to start yet another Macworld thread and not being able to find a preexisting thread that best matches I'm picking this thread because its somewhat in-line with the info and it's a new thead not bogged down in trash talk (yet).
I think it is odd what is largely absent from this lis -- the PMG4 -- based on the usual thinking that Apple pushes the old stuff to employees to help clear out inventory.
<quote>
Q4 Employee Promo [Apple Employee that is]
PowerBook G4 667MHz
* 256MB SDRAM - 1 SO DIMM
* 30GB Ultra ATA drive
* Keyboard/Mac OS - U.S. English
* Mac OS X and Mac OS 9
* DVD-ROM/CD-RW Combo
$1,999.00
PowerBook G4 800MHz
* 512MB SDRAM - 2 SO DIMMs
* 40GB Ultra ATA drive
* Keyboard/Mac OS - U.S. English
* Mac OS X and Mac OS 9
* DVD-ROM/CD-RW Combo
$2,499.00
iBook 600MHz 12.1"
* 128MB SDRAM - 1 DIMM
* 20GB Ultra ATA drive
* Keyboard/Mac OS - U.S. English
* ATI Mobility RADEON w/ 16MB of memory
* Mac OS X and Mac OS 9 included
* 12.1-inch TFT XGA display
$959.00
iBook 700MHz 12.1"
* 128MB SDRAM - 1 DIMM
* 20GB Ultra ATA drive
* Keyboard/Mac OS - U.S. English
* ATI Mobility RADEON w/ 16MB of memory
* Mac OS X and Mac OS 9 included
* 12.1-inch TFT XGA display
$1,199.00
iBook 700MHz 14.1"
* 256MB SDRAM - 2 DIMMs
* 30GB Ultra ATA drive
* DVD-ROM/CD-RW Combo drive
* Keyboard/Mac OS X - U.S. English
* Mac OS X & Mac OS 9 included
* ATI Mobility RADEON w/ 16MB of memory
* 14.1-inch TFT XGA display
$1,439.00
iMac 800MHz TFT
* 256MB SDRAM - 1 DIMM
* Keyboard/Mac OS X - U.S. English
* 60GB Ultra ATA drive
* SuperDrive
* NVIDIA GeForce2 MX w/32MB DDR graphics
* Mac OS X & Mac OS 9 installed
* Apple Keyboard
* Apple Pro Mouse
* Apple Pro Speakers
$1,499.00
iMac 500MHz OS X Indigo
* 128MB SDRAM - 1 DIMM
* Keyboard/Mac OS X - U.S. English
* iMac 500MHz
* 20GB Ultra ATA drive
* CD-ROM drive
* Mac OS X and Mac OS 9
* Harman Kardon speakers
* Apple Pro Keyboard
* Apple Pro Mouse
$599.00
Power Mac G4
* 256MB SDRAM - 1 DIMM
* 40GB Ultra ATA drive
* CD-RW drive
* ATI Radeon 7500 dual
* 56K internal modem
* Apple Pro Keyboard - U.S. English
* Mac OS - U.S. English
$1,199.00
Apple Studio Display (17" flat panel)
$799.00
</quote>
good day,
jkb
Updating hardware makes the deal look just as sweet as a price drop, plus new hardware gets a boost from those who never upgrade until something faster comes along.
Apple is aware of this behavior; which is why I'm predicting a G5 (32-bit Book E Super G4 variant) at MWNY. If it?s ready, Apple will give it to us. They?re no going to hold back and cut prices. That?s stupid.
No price drop short of $1000 for a dual 1GHz G4 would equal the sales of a new G5 Mac. If Apple wants more sales, give us the G5.
Even a 1.2GHz G4 and Display for $3500 would outsell the current 1GHz G4/Display for $3300.
Think logically people. Apple would only cut prices if there was no other way to update their product lines, which I doubt is the case. People have overclocked their 1GHz machines to 1.2GHz with no difficulty, proving Motorola can at least give us another 200Mhz. Therefore, if it?s possible for Apple to update the PowerMacs, they will.
It?s the best way to improve sales. Promotions are nowhere near as effective unless you allow yourself to loose money, and we all no how anal Apple is about their margins.
mwny WILL bring new products. This whole price cut/promotion thing is bull.
"Lemon Bon Bon,
Absolutely, (perhaps we were twins in another life?)"
Speaking of which...
"CONSUMER SALES = MARKET SHARE period, end of story."
This is the one sacred cow Apple has yet to slay...and slay it...IT MUST!
Lemon Bon Bon
[ 07-11-2002: Message edited by: Lemon Bon Bon ]</p>
The next thing I thought was: " New ones will be coming out at MWNY!"
I have no doubt that faster Titanium Powerbooks will come out... or even maybe a new design (although I don't know anyone who would have complaints with the present design).
Just sharing this news with you all.
Doesn't matter what they announce at MWNY. You can't beat that deal. I'd take a 667 for that price even if Apple was offering a 1000 for $3000 or $2500.
Wish I went to UCLA.
<strong>I go to UCLA and our school store is selling Titanium Powerbook G4 800Mhz computers for $1999. And the 667Mhz for $1499. The first thing I thought when I saw this deal was: "I should get one!"
The next thing I thought was: " New ones will be coming out at MWNY!"
I have no doubt that faster Titanium Powerbooks will come out... or even maybe a new design (although I don't know anyone who would have complaints with the present design).
Just sharing this news with you all.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You got an email address, fella? I might be in LA soon, and I'd want to take advantage of that.....
you can email me at [email protected]
ting5
[ 07-11-2002: Message edited by: Yet Another Registration ]</p>