Internal documents reveal first look at Apple's self-driving car platform

Posted:
in General Discussion edited April 2017
Documents filed as part of Apple's application to test self-driving cars in California were revealed on Friday and offer a first look at the company's autonomous platform, dubbed the "Automated System."




Obtained by Business Insider, the "Development Platform Specific Training" documents contain material designed to train potential safety drivers before they take Apple's autonomous vehicles out on public roads. Drivers must pass basic tests ranging from basic maneuvering to vehicle systems intervention prior to certification, the report says.

Pilots are expected to pass seven rudimentary tests prior to taking the testbed out for data gathering drives. Seen below, tests include maneuvering skills like low speed and high speed driving, as well as drive system intervention, which covers tight U-turns, sudden steering input, sudden acceleration and sudden braking. Drivers also need to take action in the case of a "conflicting turn signal and action," which refers to faulty lane change requests.




According to one document, when the vehicle is not being controlled by self-driving software, drivers can -- literally -- take wheel electronically via drive-by-wire technology. An accompanying photo of the cockpit shows a Logitech steering wheel and pedal system jerry-rigged to fit in front of what is presumably a Lexus RX450h's drive controls.

Apple last week was awarded a permit by the California DMV to conduct self-driving car tests on public roads. The granted permit covers three Lexus RX450h SUVs and six safety pilots who, according to today's report, are mostly Ph.Ds with specialization in machine learning. A few of the drivers named in the DMV document previously worked for automotive companies like Bosch and Tesla.

In a document detailing the correct method of performing a tight U-turn, Apple notes pilots can disengage the autonomous driving system by pressing the brake pedal or grabbing the steering wheel. Suitable drivers should also be able to accelerate without overriding the system.




Apple has long been rumored to be working on autonomous vehicle technology under its "Project Titan" initiative. The company reportedly abandoned efforts to create a branded car in late 2016 when former project leader Steve Zadesky left Apple and handed the reins over to senior VP of Hardware Engineering Dan Riccio.

Project Titan was later transferred to longtime executive Bob Mansfield, who subsequently culled hundreds of employees and refocused the program on self-driving software and supporting hardware.
«1

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 37
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member
    I can see it being called Apple Drive and being activated by saying, "Engage." They could even do a Star Trek tie in.

    And wind up killing hundreds of fiancées as they phone their friends about their engagements…
    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 2 of 37
    irelandireland Posts: 17,798member
    The company reportedly abandoned efforts to create a branded car in late 2016,
    I've never believed this for a minute. Apple doesn't make a self-driving car platform without making a car. They are doing both concurrently. Einstein used to say that he wouldn't believe a theory that was claimed to be true unless there was a logical reason for it to be the case. There's no logic in Apple, of all companies focusing on a self-drive car platform without an own branded car to go with it. And you don't perfect one while waiting to begin work on the other. It's a leak to buy them time in the eyes of outsiders. Just as how they call a meeting with a few select darlings to inform them they are beginning work on a new Mac Pro—to me, it means they decided on the new design a year ago and have by now ironed out most of the kinks. Nothing much else makes a lot of sense.

    A car of the future without this optionally engaged feature is dead in the water. And you don't perfect one without the other. For Apple, one would require just as much work as the other, and both are paramount for selling a vehicle—which they very obviously are aiming to do given the thousand-strong hires in this direction and the rumour of a few dozen fires, which probably means shuffles.
    edited April 2017 cornchippalomineleavingthebigg
  • Reply 3 of 37
    maestro64maestro64 Posts: 5,043member
    ireland said:
    The company reportedly abandoned efforts to create a branded car in late 2016,
    I've never believed this for a minute. Apple doesn't make a self-driving car platform without making a car. It's very simple. They are doing both concurrently. A car of the future without this optionally engaged feature is dead in the water. And you don't perfect one without the other. For Apple, one would require just as much work as the other, and both are paramount for selling a vehicle—which they very obviously are aiming to do.

    You know with so many cars moving  to drive by wire and many of them using standard components from a number of manufactures, Apple could just develop the system they does the driving without the need to do the car itself. In this case the can partner with the companies who make the drive and control systems and just bolt on the solution into any car. Imagine it being like a radio that you plug in and it take control of the car. It is a different way of looking at the problem. The big issue for self driving car is becoming the insurance issue, who have to carry the insurance, the owner for the system or the manufacture. Do not think for moment these cars will not get in accident , as long as human are driving along side a self driving car you will have accidents. The challenge will be who is assigned the blame.
  • Reply 4 of 37
    holyoneholyone Posts: 398member
    ireland said:
    The company reportedly abandoned efforts to create a branded car in late 2016,
    I've never believed this for a minute. Apple doesn't make a self-driving car platform without making a car. It's very simple. They are doing both concurrently. A car of the future without this optionally engaged feature is dead in the water. And you don't perfect one without the other. For Apple, one would require just as much work as they other and both are crucial to selling a vehicle—which they very obviously are aiming to do.

    (That is, the end-point is to have no interface at all. In a fully-autonomous, 'Level 5' car, with no steering wheel or manual controls at all, the only human-computer interface is when you say "take me home now". But most people in the autonomous driving field think that's at least 5 years away and more probably 10, or more. In the mean time we have a transitional phase, as you go from lots of warnings to one and you ask what fundamentally that warning should be, and as you sit in a car where you need to be in the driving seat and steering, mostly, or ready to steer, but the car might stop you, or drive itself. Something that drives itself until it doesn't can easily become dangerous. So, my struggle to turn off the HUD on my borrowed car might become something rather more urgent. This could, incidentally, be the best car opportunity for Apple. A car that you just tell to go home and forget about is Google's sweet spot, without much scope for Apple to add any unique insight as to how the experience should work. Conversely, a car that you still need to drive, somehow, but in radically new ways, seems like a fruitful place for thinking about how interfaces work, and that's Apple.)  Benedict Evans - Cars as feature-phones Worth a read
  • Reply 5 of 37
    irelandireland Posts: 17,798member
    maestro64 said:
    ireland said:
    The company reportedly abandoned efforts to create a branded car in late 2016,
    I've never believed this for a minute. Apple doesn't make a self-driving car platform without making a car. It's very simple. They are doing both concurrently. A car of the future without this optionally engaged feature is dead in the water. And you don't perfect one without the other. For Apple, one would require just as much work as the other, and both are paramount for selling a vehicle—which they very obviously are aiming to do.

    You know with so many cars moving  to drive by wire and many of them using standard components from a number of manufactures, Apple could just develop the system they does the driving without the need to do the car itself. In this case the can partner with the companies who make the drive and control systems and just bolt on the solution into any car. Imagine it being like a radio that you plug in and it take control of the car. It is a different way of looking at the problem. The big issue for self driving car is becoming the insurance issue, who have to carry the insurance, the owner for the system or the manufacture. Do not think for moment these cars will not get in accident , as long as human are driving along side a self driving car you will have accidents. The challenge will be who is assigned the blame.
    Apple. Apple. Apple.

    You're talking about Dell or some shit.
    fastasleepuniscape
  • Reply 6 of 37
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 2,075member
    I can see it being called Apple Drive and being activated by saying, "Engage." They could even do a Star Trek tie in.

    And wind up killing hundreds of fiancées as they phone their friends about their engagements…
    This will go down in history as Timmy's Folley.  

    Titan will be seen as a big failure for coming out so long after Tesla.   And a big waste of time and resources.
    pscooter63
  • Reply 7 of 37


    An accompanying photo of the cockpit shows a Logitech steering wheel and pedal system jerry-rigged to fit in front of what is presumably a Lexus RX540h's drive controls.
    Note that the human driver is literally "a backseat driver"!
    The steering wheel is attached to the headrest of the front passenger seat.
    How is the human driver seeing properly to control the vehicle?
    My guess is an AR headset that is taking a feed from the cameras mounted around the car.
    cornchip
  • Reply 8 of 37
    boltsfan17boltsfan17 Posts: 2,294member
    ireland said:
    The company reportedly abandoned efforts to create a branded car in late 2016,
    I've never believed this for a minute. Apple doesn't make a self-driving car platform without making a car. They are doing both concurrently. Einstein used to say that he wouldn't believe a theory that was claimed to be true unless there was a logical reason for it to be the case. There's no logic in Apple, of all companies focusing on a self-drive car platform without an own branded car to go with it. And you don't perfect one while waiting to begin work on the other. It's a leak to buy them time in the eyes of outsiders. Just as how they call a meeting with a few select darlings to inform them they are beginning work on a new Mac Pro—to me, it means they decided on the new design a year ago and have by now ironed out most of the kinks. Nothing much else makes a lot of sense.

    A car of the future without this optionally engaged feature is dead in the water. And you don't perfect one without the other. For Apple, one would require just as much work as the other, and both are paramount for selling a vehicle—which they very obviously are aiming to do given the thousand-strong hires in this direction and the rumour of a few dozen fires, which probably means shuffles.
    You make great points but I'm still a bit skeptical Apple is actually developing their own car. They could very well be partnering with an auto manufacturer and just be doing the development on a self-driving platform. Not that Apple isn't capable, but developing a vehicle, manufacturing, opening dealerships and service centers, etc is one massive undertaking. 
  • Reply 9 of 37
    calicali Posts: 3,494member
    maestro64 said:
    ireland said:
    The company reportedly abandoned efforts to create a branded car in late 2016,
    I've never believed this for a minute. Apple doesn't make a self-driving car platform without making a car. It's very simple. They are doing both concurrently. A car of the future without this optionally engaged feature is dead in the water. And you don't perfect one without the other. For Apple, one would require just as much work as the other, and both are paramount for selling a vehicle—which they very obviously are aiming to do.

    You know with so many cars moving  to drive by wire and many of them using standard components from a number of manufactures, Apple could just develop the system they does the driving without the need to do the car itself. In this case the can partner with the companies who make the drive and control systems and just bolt on the solution into any car. Imagine it being like a radio that you plug in and it take control of the car. It is a different way of looking at the problem. The big issue for self driving car is becoming the insurance issue, who have to carry the insurance, the owner for the system or the manufacture. Do not think for moment these cars will not get in accident , as long as human are driving along side a self driving car you will have accidents. The challenge will be who is assigned the blame.
    Great idea!!

    and in a few months Tesla/General Electric or whoever is the next Microsoft/Google/Fitbit will knock it off and give it away for FREE!


    k2kw said:
    I can see it being called Apple Drive and being activated by saying, "Engage." They could even do a Star Trek tie in.

    And wind up killing hundreds of fiancées as they phone their friends about their engagements…
    This will go down in history as Timmy's Folley.  

    Titan will be seen as a big failure for coming out so long after Tesla.   And a big waste of time and resources.

    Just like Steve Jobs Foley with iPhone. Releasing so long after Motorola and Nokia. What was he thinking?!?!

    cornchipleavingthebiggStrangeDayspscooter63
  • Reply 10 of 37
    Actually it's not self driving.  You're paying a fee for a guy in India to drive you where you want to go.

    You better not be sleeping when you travel between two cell sites, or there is network congestion.

    Originally is was to be an actual guy from India, but they had to scrap that idea because of the difficulty in getting work vesa's.

    Why is this starting to sound like 3D TVs. 

    Or Apple TV, which they claim to be a hobby.

    Wake me up when there is a real product...


  • Reply 11 of 37
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 2,075member
    cali said:
    maestro64 said:
    ireland said:
    The company reportedly abandoned efforts to create a branded car in late 2016,
    I've never believed this for a minute. Apple doesn't make a self-driving car platform without making a car. It's very simple. They are doing both concurrently. A car of the future without this optionally engaged feature is dead in the water. And you don't perfect one without the other. For Apple, one would require just as much work as the other, and both are paramount for selling a vehicle—which they very obviously are aiming to do.

    You know with so many cars moving  to drive by wire and many of them using standard components from a number of manufactures, Apple could just develop the system they does the driving without the need to do the car itself. In this case the can partner with the companies who make the drive and control systems and just bolt on the solution into any car. Imagine it being like a radio that you plug in and it take control of the car. It is a different way of looking at the problem. The big issue for self driving car is becoming the insurance issue, who have to carry the insurance, the owner for the system or the manufacture. Do not think for moment these cars will not get in accident , as long as human are driving along side a self driving car you will have accidents. The challenge will be who is assigned the blame.
    Great idea!!

    and in a few months Tesla/General Electric or whoever is the next Microsoft/Google/Fitbit will knock it off and give it away for FREE!


    k2kw said:
    I can see it being called Apple Drive and being activated by saying, "Engage." They could even do a Star Trek tie in.

    And wind up killing hundreds of fiancées as they phone their friends about their engagements…
    This will go down in history as Timmy's Folley.  

    Titan will be seen as a big failure for coming out so long after Tesla.   And a big waste of time and resources.

    Just like Steve Jobs Foley with iPhone. Releasing so long after Motorola and Nokia. What was he thinking?!?!

    If Apple releases their own car do you think their competitors will stick with CarPlay?

    If  Apple partners with an established manufacturer who will be to blame for accidents.    That is the same model that MS uses with PC manufacturers.   Lower quality due to losser integration.
    If Apple was already making GPU, I think they would have a chance.   I wouldn't Trust my life to Siri so a self driving car by Apple is pretty scary.
  • Reply 12 of 37
    k2kw said:
    I can see it being called Apple Drive and being activated by saying, "Engage." They could even do a Star Trek tie in.

    And wind up killing hundreds of fiancées as they phone their friends about their engagements…
    This will go down in history as Timmy's Folley.  

    Titan will be seen as a big failure for coming out so long after Tesla.   And a big waste of time and resources.
    Someone like you, on the other hand, likely won't even go down in history...
    fastasleepcalileavingthebiggStrangeDays
  • Reply 13 of 37
    Actually it's not self driving.  You're paying a fee for a guy in India to drive you where you want to go.

    You better not be sleeping when you travel between two cell sites, or there is network congestion.

    Originally is was to be an actual guy from India, but they had to scrap that idea because of the difficulty in getting work vesa's.

    Why is this starting to sound like 3D TVs. 

    Or Apple TV, which they claim to be a hobby.

    Wake me up when there is a real product...


    Will do. If you promise to stay asleep until then... ;-)
    gatorguyfastasleepuniscapepscooter63
  • Reply 14 of 37
    sirdirsirdir Posts: 186member
    maestro64 said:

    You know with so many cars moving  to drive by wire and many of them using standard components from a number of manufactures, Apple could just develop the system they does the driving without the need to do the car itself. In this case the can partner with the companies who make the drive and control systems and just bolt on the solution into any car. Imagine it being like a radio that you plug in and it take control of the car. It is a different way of looking at the problem. The big issue for self driving car is becoming the insurance issue, who have to carry the insurance, the owner for the system or the manufacture. Do not think for moment these cars will not get in accident , as long as human are driving along side a self driving car you will have accidents. The challenge will be who is assigned the blame.
    Well, first of all most manufacturers are already working on their own implementation of autonomous driving. and the other point is, it would really be a very first for apple to license their tech to other companies (well, for a long time, at least) - they don't allow their OS to be licensed, but their autonomous driving? Huh? 
    But under Cook, everything seems possible. I can't really imagine there's a 'secret' car underway. Or it's still in very early stages. 
  • Reply 15 of 37
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 6,408member
    k2kw said:
    I can see it being called Apple Drive and being activated by saying, "Engage." They could even do a Star Trek tie in.

    And wind up killing hundreds of fiancées as they phone their friends about their engagements…
    This will go down in history as Timmy's Folley.  

    Titan will be seen as a big failure for coming out so long after Tesla.   And a big waste of time and resources.
    "No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame."
    edited April 2017 caliStrangeDays
  • Reply 16 of 37
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 6,408member
    ireland said:
    The company reportedly abandoned efforts to create a branded car in late 2016,
    I've never believed this for a minute. Apple doesn't make a self-driving car platform without making a car. They are doing both concurrently. Einstein used to say that he wouldn't believe a theory that was claimed to be true unless there was a logical reason for it to be the case. There's no logic in Apple, of all companies focusing on a self-drive car platform without an own branded car to go with it. And you don't perfect one while waiting to begin work on the other. It's a leak to buy them time in the eyes of outsiders. Just as how they call a meeting with a few select darlings to inform them they are beginning work on a new Mac Pro—to me, it means they decided on the new design a year ago and have by now ironed out most of the kinks. Nothing much else makes a lot of sense.

    A car of the future without this optionally engaged feature is dead in the water. And you don't perfect one without the other. For Apple, one would require just as much work as the other, and both are paramount for selling a vehicle—which they very obviously are aiming to do given the thousand-strong hires in this direction and the rumour of a few dozen fires, which probably means shuffles.
    You make great points but I'm still a bit skeptical Apple is actually developing their own car. They could very well be partnering with an auto manufacturer and just be doing the development on a self-driving platform. Not that Apple isn't capable, but developing a vehicle, manufacturing, opening dealerships and service centers, etc is one massive undertaking. 
    “PC guys are not going to just figure this out. They’re not going to just walk in.”
    StrangeDayspscooter63
  • Reply 17 of 37
    irelandireland Posts: 17,798member
    ireland said:
    The company reportedly abandoned efforts to create a branded car in late 2016,
    I've never believed this for a minute. Apple doesn't make a self-driving car platform without making a car. They are doing both concurrently. Einstein used to say that he wouldn't believe a theory that was claimed to be true unless there was a logical reason for it to be the case. There's no logic in Apple, of all companies focusing on a self-drive car platform without an own branded car to go with it. And you don't perfect one while waiting to begin work on the other. It's a leak to buy them time in the eyes of outsiders. Just as how they call a meeting with a few select darlings to inform them they are beginning work on a new Mac Pro—to me, it means they decided on the new design a year ago and have by now ironed out most of the kinks. Nothing much else makes a lot of sense.

    A car of the future without this optionally engaged feature is dead in the water. And you don't perfect one without the other. For Apple, one would require just as much work as the other, and both are paramount for selling a vehicle—which they very obviously are aiming to do given the thousand-strong hires in this direction and the rumour of a few dozen fires, which probably means shuffles.
    You make great points but I'm still a bit skeptical Apple is actually developing their own car. They could very well be partnering with an auto manufacturer and just be doing the development on a self-driving platform. Not that Apple isn't capable, but developing a vehicle, manufacturing, opening dealerships and service centers, etc is one massive undertaking. 
    Go big or go home. Fear is not a good excuse to not do it all yourself. If Elon can build an electric car company from not existing into what it is today and we know by now the future of all cars is clearly electric and cars are becoming smart and Apple wants to build one I don't see why they can't build a great one. They have some of the best designers and engineers on the planet and they are perhaps 'the' company most associated with attention to detail and customer service today. Not to mention that more than a few of Ive's design team are former car designers from companies such as Lambo and Porsche and others. And we know most of Apple's execs are into cars. Not just owners of nice cars because they can afford them, but really into them. Including Jony Ive and his best friend, now co-worker. If you can't see the smoke with all the fire around the past few years then no one can convince you.
    edited April 2017 caliuniscapepscooter63fastasleep
  • Reply 18 of 37
    calicali Posts: 3,494member
    ireland said:
    The company reportedly abandoned efforts to create a branded car in late 2016,
    I've never believed this for a minute. Apple doesn't make a self-driving car platform without making a car. They are doing both concurrently. Einstein used to say that he wouldn't believe a theory that was claimed to be true unless there was a logical reason for it to be the case. There's no logic in Apple, of all companies focusing on a self-drive car platform without an own branded car to go with it. And you don't perfect one while waiting to begin work on the other. It's a leak to buy them time in the eyes of outsiders. Just as how they call a meeting with a few select darlings to inform them they are beginning work on a new Mac Pro—to me, it means they decided on the new design a year ago and have by now ironed out most of the kinks. Nothing much else makes a lot of sense.

    A car of the future without this optionally engaged feature is dead in the water. And you don't perfect one without the other. For Apple, one would require just as much work as the other, and both are paramount for selling a vehicle—which they very obviously are aiming to do given the thousand-strong hires in this direction and the rumour of a few dozen fires, which probably means shuffles.
    You make great points but I'm still a bit skeptical Apple is actually developing their own car. They could very well be partnering with an auto manufacturer and just be doing the development on a self-driving platform. Not that Apple isn't capable, but developing a vehicle, manufacturing, opening dealerships and service centers, etc is one massive undertaking. 
    “PC guys are not going to just figure this out. They’re not going to just walk in.”
    "And it doesn't have a keyboard! Which makes it not a good email machine"

    k2kw said:
    cali said:
    maestro64 said:
    ireland said:
    The company reportedly abandoned efforts to create a branded car in late 2016,
    I've never believed this for a minute. Apple doesn't make a self-driving car platform without making a car. It's very simple. They are doing both concurrently. A car of the future without this optionally engaged feature is dead in the water. And you don't perfect one without the other. For Apple, one would require just as much work as the other, and both are paramount for selling a vehicle—which they very obviously are aiming to do.

    You know with so many cars moving  to drive by wire and many of them using standard components from a number of manufactures, Apple could just develop the system they does the driving without the need to do the car itself. In this case the can partner with the companies who make the drive and control systems and just bolt on the solution into any car. Imagine it being like a radio that you plug in and it take control of the car. It is a different way of looking at the problem. The big issue for self driving car is becoming the insurance issue, who have to carry the insurance, the owner for the system or the manufacture. Do not think for moment these cars will not get in accident , as long as human are driving along side a self driving car you will have accidents. The challenge will be who is assigned the blame.
    Great idea!!

    and in a few months Tesla/General Electric or whoever is the next Microsoft/Google/Fitbit will knock it off and give it away for FREE!


    k2kw said:
    I can see it being called Apple Drive and being activated by saying, "Engage." They could even do a Star Trek tie in.

    And wind up killing hundreds of fiancées as they phone their friends about their engagements…
    This will go down in history as Timmy's Folley.  

    Titan will be seen as a big failure for coming out so long after Tesla.   And a big waste of time and resources.

    Just like Steve Jobs Foley with iPhone. Releasing so long after Motorola and Nokia. What was he thinking?!?!

    If Apple releases their own car do you think their competitors will stick with CarPlay?

    If  Apple partners with an established manufacturer who will be to blame for accidents.    That is the same model that MS uses with PC manufacturers.   Lower quality due to losser integration.
    If Apple was already making GPU, I think they would have a chance.   I wouldn't Trust my life to Siri so a self driving car by Apple is pretty scary.
    You know Siri is software right? If cars adopt Siri you can't escape her.
    also this isn't CarPlay. CarPlay is something completely different.

    Actually it's not self driving.  You're paying a fee for a guy in India to drive you where you want to go.

    You better not be sleeping when you travel between two cell sites, or there is network congestion.

    Originally is was to be an actual guy from India, but they had to scrap that idea because of the difficulty in getting work vesa's.

    Why is this starting to sound like 3D TVs. 

    Or Apple TV, which they claim to be a hobby.

    Wake me up when there is a real product...


    This is why Apple keeps things under wraps. You find a little pebble of evidence and you want it NOWW!!!!
    StrangeDays
  • Reply 19 of 37
    rogifan_newrogifan_new Posts: 4,297member
    ireland said:
    The company reportedly abandoned efforts to create a branded car in late 2016,
    I've never believed this for a minute. Apple doesn't make a self-driving car platform without making a car. They are doing both concurrently. Einstein used to say that he wouldn't believe a theory that was claimed to be true unless there was a logical reason for it to be the case. There's no logic in Apple, of all companies focusing on a self-drive car platform without an own branded car to go with it. And you don't perfect one while waiting to begin work on the other. It's a leak to buy them time in the eyes of outsiders. Just as how they call a meeting with a few select darlings to inform them they are beginning work on a new Mac Pro—to me, it means they decided on the new design a year ago and have by now ironed out most of the kinks. Nothing much else makes a lot of sense.

    A car of the future without this optionally engaged feature is dead in the water. And you don't perfect one without the other. For Apple, one would require just as much work as the other, and both are paramount for selling a vehicle—which they very obviously are aiming to do given the thousand-strong hires in this direction and the rumour of a few dozen fires, which probably means shuffles.
    You make great points but I'm still a bit skeptical Apple is actually developing their own car. They could very well be partnering with an auto manufacturer and just be doing the development on a self-driving platform. Not that Apple isn't capable, but developing a vehicle, manufacturing, opening dealerships and service centers, etc is one massive undertaking. 
    “PC guys are not going to just figure this out. They’re not going to just walk in.”
    Because a self driving, autonomous car is comparable to a cell phone. No.
  • Reply 20 of 37
    rogifan_newrogifan_new Posts: 4,297member

    k2kw said:
    I can see it being called Apple Drive and being activated by saying, "Engage." They could even do a Star Trek tie in.

    And wind up killing hundreds of fiancées as they phone their friends about their engagements…
    This will go down in history as Timmy's Folley.  

    Titan will be seen as a big failure for coming out so long after Tesla.   And a big waste of time and resources.
    "No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame."
    Because an MP3 player is even close to being comparable to a self driving, autonomous car. No. 
Sign In or Register to comment.